The cure for cults that want to deny others
their freedom of speech is more freedom of speech
-- Fredric Rice


Creationist Cults

Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:48:02
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@SkepticTank.ORG>
To: ICR cult
Sub: ICR cult

>> Your previous E-mail to my organization claimed
>> that one of the automated forms my software generated
>> that's located at
>> was some how copyrighted by the ICR cult.

> You are incorrect. Here is what was sent in my
> first email:

> "The Institute for Creation Research kindly requests
> that you immediately remove all ICR content from your
> site and stop distributing our material."

> There was no mention of your form.

The Skeptic Tank routinely receives e-mail from academics noting their inability to acquire honesty from Creationists even when honesty would serve. I merely mention it. And in fact your first e-mail to my office was the following:

-=- which is the same one I sent on Mar 22. See below. Thank you.

Mr. Rice,

The Institute for Creation Research kindly requests that you immediately remove all ICR content from your site and stop distributing our material. Your page at: is one example of violating our copyright. Here is the first paragraph of our copyright that can be found on every page of our website by clicking the copyright link:


>> Now you're demanding that all of the critical
>> text documents that form enumerates which debunks
>> a number of Creationist cults' deliberate lies
>> and deceptions must not be allowed to be disseminated
>> to the public. And you're trying to justify that
>> demand by claiming that all of those texts are some
>> how copyrighted by the ICR cult.

> No, I am stating facts and asking you to be professional.
> I have linked and copied our copyright numerous times.

Your constant claims that the criticism my educational organization disseminates to academia and the lay public is some how copyrighted by the ICR cult is a blatant attempt to stiffle my organization's freedom of speech. Here you are demanding that you're not and yet below you list text files my organization created and demanding that my organization stop disseminating these critical texts which are copyrighted by The Skeptic Tank.

> You can lie about ICR all you want.

And thus we find the motivation behind your demands that my organization stop criticizing the ICR cult. If you can find anything on The Skeptic Tank covering Creationist cults which is inaccurate or in any way in error, do please let me know so that the "lies" may be corrected. You have the right to correct what your opinion compells you to pretend are "lies" on The Skeptic Tank. You do _not_ have the right to demand that the "lies" you find on The Skeptic Tank are some how copyrighted to the ICR cult.

You may _politely_ request any of the thousands of documents made available through my educational organization to determine for yourself whether the ICR cult's copyrights are some how being violated. You may not blatantly demand that criticism of Creationists cults be halted just because you want to pretend criticism are lies.

>> Have you ever heard of the First Amendment? How about
>> the Bill of Rights? Does the name "United States
>> Constitution" ring any bells? Have you heard of a concept
>> called "Democracy?" Frankly it appears to me as though
>> your complaint is a rather blatant demand that my
>> organization cease its Constitutionally guaranteed right
>> to criticize notorious Creationist cults.

> You keep on ranting for nothing. As stated above, you
> may make false statements and slander ICR as you see
> fit for the time being.

When you can find any false statements or slander anywhere on The Skeptic Tank, please do get back to me with specifics so that the errors may be corrected. Above all, The Skeptic Tank wishes to maintain a high level of academic standard for accuracy in the criticism disseminated through our office. The Skeptic Tank has a well regarded, professional reputation which must be maintained and it is our policy that errors, inaccuracies, or falsehoods be corrected as soon as they are determined to be in need of repair.

With our thanks.

>> Since my educational, nonprofit organization has
>> a deserved reputation for honesty and fair play,
>> I'm more than willing to receive from you a list
>> of specific file names and web site URLs which some
>> how violate the ICR cult's copyrights and I would be
>> more than happy to either remove them else make
>> certain that they conform to U. S. Code Title 17
>> under the dictates of "Fair Use." (The details of
>> which you may read for yourself at
>> Send
>> me specifics instead of vague threats of intimidation
>> decrying my Freedom of Speech rights and I will make
>> absolutely certain that they are either removed or
>> that they conform to Fair Use.

> Here is the list as if you didn't know. Nobody has
> threatened you yet. We have requested that you respect
> our copyright and link to our articles rather than
> reproducing them like,,
> and others.

And here we find further evidence that it's criticism of Creationist cults that motivates your bizarre notion that criticism some how violates the ICR cult's copyrights. If either TalkOriginns.ORG or Infidels.ORG are some how violating the ICR cult's copyrights, I'm sure that they would like to know about it as I suspect it would come as rather a surprise to them, too.

> IMP-184A.ZIP [7780 bytes] --- 'The Meaning of 'Day' in
> Genesis' by James Stambaugh. Examination of how the word
> 'day' is used in Genesis and throughout the Bible.
> Concludes day means 24-hour period in Genesis 1.
> IMP-188A.ZIP [16982 bytes] --- 'The Mystery of the
> Earth's Magnetic Field' by Russell Humphreys, Ph.D.
> Review of creationist research on the decay of the
> earth's magnetic field [it doesn't] and bearing on the
> Genesis flood.
> IMP-209A.ZIP [8183 bytes] --- 'Evolution and the Wages
> of Sin' by John D. Morris. A look at death, sin, evolution,
> and the Bible. How different, and compatible, are they?
> IMP-107A.ZIP [8147 bytes] --- 'Evolution Is Religion[sic],
> Not Science' by Henry M. Morris. The religious[sic] nature
> of evolution as expressed by leading evolutionists and the
> scientific irrelevance of evolution.
> IMP-218A.ZIP [7809 bytes] --- 'Hugh Ross, ICR, and Facts
> of Science' by James S. Stambaugh. An examination of the
> scientific differences between Hugh Ross and the Institute
> for Creation Research.
> IMP-220A.ZIP [8092 bytes] --- 'Columbus and His Creator'
> by Paul G. Humber. Christopher Columbus's views about the
> Creator and motivation for finding the New World.
> IMP-221A.ZIP [8228 bytes] --- 'The Bible, Creation, and
> Ecology' by Henry M. Morris. The Biblical basis for a
> Christian approach to ecology. Also critiques environmentalism
> and pantheism.
> IMP-249A.ZIP [9111 bytes] --- 'Darwin's Teaching[sic] of
> Women's Inferiority' by Dr. Jerry Bergman.
> IMP-251A.ZIP [8880 bytes] --- 'Star Formation and Genesis
> 1' by James Stambaugh. Examination of Genesis 1:14-19 and
> Dr. Hugh Ross' interpretation of these verses and the
> formation of stars.
> IMP-252A.ZIP [7605 bytes] --- 'Tree Rings and Biblical
> Chronology' by Frank Lorey. Using Bristlecone pine
> tree-rings to date creation and Noah's flood.
> IMP-253A.ZIP [7536 bytes] --- 'Geocentricity and Creation'
> by Gerald E. Aardsma. Review of geocentricity,
> heliocentricity, and Bible. Concludes [falsely]
> geocentricity is not taught in the Bible.
> IMP-254A.ZIP [40021 bytes] --- 'Out of Whose Womb Came
> the Ice?' by Larry Vardiman. An examination of ice core
> data, temperature changes, & precipitation in support of
> a world-wide flood & only one Ice Age.
> IMP-255A.ZIP [29563 bytes] --- 'A Practical Model for
> Integrating Science and Faith' by Stephen W. Deckard. How
> to integrate Science with Faith...and become a better
> scientist! Includes two .PCX files of figures.
> IMP-256A.ZIP [41064 bytes] --- 'Gravity' by Don. B.
> DeYoung, Ph.D. Overview of the nature of gravity and its
> relation to the Bible. Includes 3 .PCX files of
> illustrations and table.
> IMP-257A.ZIP [9014 bytes] --- 'The New State
> Religion[sic]: Atheism' by Jerry Bergman. Examination of
> the atheist views of several prominent evolutionist and
> their efforts to negate the influence of religion.
> DOP92-1A.ZIP [71967 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Winter 1992, Dec-Jan-Feb 1992
> DOP92-2A.ZIP [71779 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Spring 1992, March-April-May 1992
> DOP92-3A.ZIP [72588 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Summer 1992, June-July-August 1992
> DOP92-4A.ZIP [72231 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Fall 1992, Sept-Oct-Nov 1992
> DOP93-1A.ZIP [71463 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Winter 1993, Dec-Jan-Feb 1993
> DOP93-2A.ZIP [72568 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Spring 1993, March-April-May 1993
> DOP93-3A.ZIP [71890 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Summer 1993, June-July-Aug 1993
> DOP93-4A.ZIP [70450 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Fall 1993, Sept-Oct-Nov 1993
> IMP-244A.ZIP [5661 bytes] --- The Dating Gap by Marvin L.
> Lubenow. I.C.R. Impact article No. 244, Oct. 1993.
> IMP-245A.ZIP [6754 bytes] --- Christianity and Technological
> Advance: the Astonishing Connection by T.V. Varughese.
> I.C.R. Impact article No. 245, Nov 1993.
> IMP-246A.ZIP [6433 bytes] --- When God Became Man by
> Henry M. Morris. I.C.R. Impact article No. 246, Dec. 93.
> IMP-247A.ZIP [7919 bytes] --- Compromises and Consequences:
> The Genesis Account by Fred Willson. I.C.R. Impact article
> No. 247, Jan 94.
> IMP-248A.ZIP [8175 bytes] --- Would China Benefit From
> Christianity? by John D. Morris. I.C.R. Impact article
> No. 248, Feb. 94.
> IMP-250A.ZIP [8761 bytes] --- 'When Is a Whale a Whale?'
> by Dr Duane T Gish, Ph.D. Critique of recent reports of
> the finding of the transitional fossil of a whale.
> Institute for Creation Research Cult's _Impact_ article
> #250, April 1994.
> IMPR9405.ZIP [25868 bytes] --- Imprimis, May 94, Vol. 23,
> No. 5. 'The Real Environmental Crisis: Environmental Law'
> by Robert J. Ernst.
> IMPR9406.ZIP [41274 bytes] --- Imprimis, Jun 94, Vol. 23,
> No. 6. 'Education: The Second Door To Freedom' by Clarence
> Thomas, Assoc. Justice, Supreme Court of the U.S. and
> 'Capitalism and the Future of America' by George Roche.
> IMP-215A.ZIP [9889 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-229A.ZIP [10252 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-230A.ZIP [6861 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-231A.ZIP [10682 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-232A.ZIP [10218 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-233A.ZIP [98315 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-234A.ZIP [10444 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-235A.ZIP [9759 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-236A.ZIP [9690 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-237A.ZIP [10033 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-238A.ZIP [9519 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-239A.ZIP [28127 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-240A.ZIP [10171 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-241A.ZIP [10597 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-242A.ZIP [19112 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMPR9203.ZIP [31316 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMPR9311.ZIP [36751 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> ICR184.ZIP [5140 bytes] --- THE MEANING OF 'DAY'
> ICR185.ZIP [4865 bytes] --- CSA PATH FOR EXCELLENCE
> IN K-6 SCIENCE (Creationist propaganda)
> (Creationist propaganda)
> ICR188.ZIP [5604 bytes] --- THE MYSTERY OF THE EARTH'S
> MAGNETIC FIELD (Creationist Propaganda)

Here you are claiming that these text files -- documents which my organization created -- are some how copyrighted to the ICR cult because they contain "lies" about the ICR cult. As mentioned previously, you may _politely_ request these texts and, when you come to any "lies," or "false statements" or "slandar," feel free to get back to me with corrections. You may not demand that criticism of Creationist cults are some how copyrighted to said Creationist cults.

I'll forward your claim that TalkOrigins.ORG and Infidels.ORG are "reproducing them like,, and others" and ask if they are in fact doing so.

Any text written by the creationist cult which may be quoted within this criticial examination of the creationist cult is provided according to U. S. Code Title 17 "Fair Use" dictates which may be reviewed at

"You can lie about ICR all you want." -- Jason Daniel Henderson

"Thank you for your permission however there's never any need to. Creationist propaganda is already self-debunking." -- Fredric L. Rice


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This web site is not affiliated or associated with any creationist cult in any way and neither the web site host, the web site owner, or any of the authors which assisted in debunking creationist nonsense are in any way connected with any creationist cult.

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