(22043) Sat 30 Jun 90 8:50p
By: Gil Wilkes
To: Aaron Johnson @ 914/801
Re: Why are you offended?
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
i hope, Aaron, that you have a few minutes on your hands, if not, i suggest you
relegate this message to a "capture file" for consumption at a more convenient
time, its kind of long. i kind of enjoyed the novelty of your message, and had
a good time coming up with answers to your charges, so i got carried away. Pls
call (write, post) again!
Message #1175 "Open Bible Echo"
Date: 27-Jun-90 20:00
From: Aaron Johnson @ 914/801
To: Gil Wilkes
Subj: Re: Somewhat Critical Thinkers
>Previous Reply is Message #982.
> OK..I am offended...why? FIRST:
Wow, you took me by surprise, are you new
here Aaron? If so then welcome, and thank you for sharing
what you shared with me. If not, i'm sorry we've never
exchanged our views before, you seem both sincere and
committed and even though i fall into a provincial and
narrow minded category of humanity (ask Vlad or Harlow), i
do respect these things. -oh, sorry if i offended you,
nothing personal -ok?
>Jesus NEVER said he was the son of God, he said he was ONE
>with God,
>and wanted us all to realize this.
True, good point. And yet, Jesus did address God as
"Father". He further instructed us to do the same,
Fatherhood being the metaphor the Lord chose to illustrate
His relationship to the Father, and through the Lord, we
may also enjoy that same relationship -do i sound too
preachy? Sorry. Bear with me.
> How did he perform the miracles? Easy....Magick.
>Magick is something you can do with you mind. Jesus was a
>powerful Magician and realized we are all one with God.
Have you ever read "Magik [Crowley always spelled magick
"Magik"] in Theory and Practice" by Crowley, or Levi's
"Equinox", or maybe Sir James G Frazer's "The Golden
Bough"? If not, i would recommend Fazer's "Golden Bough",
-skip the other two (their full of ranting, reviling and
speculation and all manner of useless and demonic idiocy,
and you have to work your way through all of this to find
anything useful, -like what these people really believe,
hardly worth your precious time), it'll give you an
excellent (unbiased and anthropological) understanding of
the ancient belief system in which magic dwells.
Magik, and all Pagan belief systems rest upon a "theology
of continuity", that is, a denial of the creator/creature
distinction (extremely important in orthodox theology),
-and the assertion of a continuity between heaven and
earth. A belief that "all being is one being, and the god
therefore was an ascended man on that scale of being" (Fr
Micheli, "Antichrist", an excellent primer for basic
theological principles). Thus, in the Pagan mind, that
Caesar is god is not a contradiction in terms, for human
power to become divine power is not inconsistent.
Pagan worship and magical practices are based upon the
principle of "cultus". Cult comes from the same word as the
word "cultivate", like tilling the soil, "the aim of the
action being the production of some benefit by the object
of attention" ("New Westminster Dictionary of Liturgy")
-such as tilling the soil yields, hopefully, a harvest.
Christian worship, in contrast, comes not from below (the
human side, human effort or labor) but from above. The
substance of our worship, the very essence of our worship
is "Eucharistic", that is, not bartering or cajoling (we
are taught to pray for temporal blessings, we do not,
however, offer anything in return or attempt to cut a
"deal" with the Lord, his gifts are without cost and given
as He wills, -so why don't you ask the source now and
again, Aaron, especially if you have questions concerning
Him), but rather thanking the Lord for what has been done.
(Sympathetic) Magik (contagious or homeopathic magik, as
opposed to stage magic, -illusion and what not) is based on
the pagan "doctrine of sympathies" ("microcosm equals
macrocosm", "As above, so below", "Like produces Like", to
quote a few notorious Pagan sources), the pagan idea that
to "trouble a leaf will disturb a star", the idea that the
universe is bound by compensatory relationships of
sympathy. The first law of sympathetic magic is that to
produce a given result merely imitate it! According to
Frazer:
"Homeopathic magic is founded on the association of ideas
by similarity: contagious magic is founded on the
association of ideas by contiguity. Homeopathic magic
commits the mistake of assuming that things which resemble
each other are the same: contagious magic commits the
mistake of assuming that things which have once been in
contact with each other are always in contact... but in
practice, the two are often combined..."
Thus will voo-doo dolls be configured to resemble the
intended victim, complete with effects stolen from said
victim, thus the occult use of symbols to attempt to affect
the "real world" (red hexagrams penciled on photographs as
a curse, and ect). Thus will rain charms often involved
splashing water (rain) and beating drums (thunder). Frazer
further comments: ...as he sometimes believes, to become
incarnate in his own person, then he need appeal to no
higher being; he, the savage, possesses in himself all the
power necessary ot further his own well being and that of
his fellow-man (sound kind of secular-humanist, eh'what? i
hope Harlow listens in).
In the universe, the way the pagan mind constructs it, that
we are all "one with God" (as you state Jesus taught) would
be perfectly sound teaching. In the Christian universe,
that would be a metaphysical impossibility, -almost funny,
actually, there is a sharp distinction in Christian
teaching, between the creature, and his Creator. The Lord
is the Lord, and the creature the creature, and though we
may (and i pray that we do, or we will, together) through
Christ "participate in the Divine Nature" (apostle Peter),
alas, you and i will never be divine or enjoy the arbitrary
exercise of the power ascribed thereto.
The pagans on the network will want to remind me how much i
deleted (or misunderstood, in which case i suggest they
refer to the sources i mentioned above), my purpose was not
to teach a course in pagan theology (rather unqualified
anyhow) but rather to provide a contrast for the person of
Jesus and the nature of His activity as revealed in the
scriptures and through his Holy Church. As for the
activity of our Lord, his works were not of the imposture
of magik, but rather of the Nature of His being, He was God
(the Son, we're a "Trinitarian lot, we are). Only a being of infinate power
could create being from non-being (He is the Author of creation, the
first born from among the dead), and further champion
creation from chaos and forge light out of darkness, and
only a single being could have done this. And all things
(the Son). Only a being of infinate power could create
being from non-being (He is the Author of creation, the
first born from among the dead), and further champion
creation from chaos and forge light out of darkness, and
only a single being could have done this. And all things
are governed and sustained by Him. It is perfectly
consistent that this being, Incarnate, would command nature
and nature would obey. Nature is his creature, this is not
the invasion and conquest of some alien usurper, this is
the return of the rightful King and Heir, to begin the
restoration to the natural, created order, and creation
celebrates His Name.
> Prove me wrong WITHOUT quoting from the bible. You
>can, but you must realize the bible is wrong in some
>areas. For instance"
See, i haven't quoted scripture yet! We believe our faith
to be dialectically right in line with human reason, so i
really don't mind accommodating you. i know some people get
really turned off when Christians start reciting from the
Bible, so if it promotes and encourages peace between us,
i'll lay off direct quotes and try in stead to communicate
our teachings and traditions through other means.
Further, "proving you wrong" doesn't interest me, i haven't
entered my crusader, "convert or destroy" mode, and in this
way, we can lay off trying to best one another and try
instead to learn more about each others beliefs.
> God tells man" MAN SHALL RULE OF WOMEN" but this makes
>no sense, and he also told Judah to kill MILLIONS of Baal
>Worshippers..(this is in YOUR so called bible)...Baal is
>defined as the God of GOOD IN YOUR BIBLE. God kills him
>and the worshippers...
Further, "proving you wrong" doesn't interest me, i haven't
entered my crusader, "convert or destroy" mode, and in this
way, we can lay off trying to best one another and try
instead to learn more about each others beliefs.
> God tells man" MAN SHALL RULE OF WOMEN" but this makes
>no sense, and he also told Judah to kill MILLIONS of Baal
>Worshippers..(this is in YOUR so called bible)...Baal is
>defined as the God of GOOD IN YOUR BIBLE. God kills him
>and the worshippers...
Um... the Lord didn't ever tell us to "rule" females (would
that he had!), rather, he gifted males and females with
each other, bonding them with complimentary and
compensatory roles (defined ambiguously), so we could love
each other, escape loneliness and alienation, perpetuate
our selves (participate in the creative and sustaining
activity of the Lord) and avoid killing each other. The
[functional] family is the primary humanizing agency and
protector of our freedom (not political freedom as defined
in our time, but rather the intimate and personal freedom
that grows within the inner, secular structures of human
relationships, -that no political order can bestow or deny,
the freedom to be human, it is a grace offered to our
entire race) of any society, without it, we become
something akin to an anthill, or a bee hive (or something
like gender feminism would like to achieve, a society of
androgynous, mutant gender benders).
Baal means "master", or "lord", and refers specifically to
a Caananite Deity of wide circulation. Baal commanded of
his children a rather grizzley sacrament involving the
immolation of toddlers. The priests of Baal were murderers.
Please do not defend the priests of Baal. -also, do not
imagine that this is the worst thing that Our Lord
commanded us to do, you should look into the "Herem"
principle, whereas an enemy people, their warriors, men,
women, children, animals, even material possessions were
executed and immolated. If you would like me to pursue this
subject in detail, please advise.
There is a beautiful passage of scripture (one quote, ok?
pls forgive me) in Hosea, in which the Lord tells us "...in
those days you will call me no more "baali" (master, an
allusion to slavery and to Baal worship) but you will call
me "ishi" (husband, an illusion to the Church, who is the
bride of Christ). i just had to share something positive
with you, all of that other stuff is rather a downer, don't
you think, i mean, except for the stuff about the Lord and
all.
> Please..give me your comments.
If you really want to get deep into this stuff, and not
just scratch the surface, then it would do you well to post
a message to Pedro Vega, Rick Carrol or Tim of- Angle, they are far more
qualified to deal with subject matter like this. Since my
"bunji jumping" accident last Wkend (a tad too much line,
i'm afaid, a tad is all it takes to ruin an otherwise
perfect Wkend), i've been having a little trouble finding a
coherent thought in my head, and have subsisted on a diet
of Pepsi-Cola and Tylonal III, i can't even blink both of
my eyes at once, so please excuse me. i'm going to try hang
gliding next time.
Beyond that, i enjoyed fielding your questions and pray
that my answers satisfied you, if not, please post me you
questions/comments and let me try again. -peace/gvw
--- QuickBBS 2.64/O (Reg)
* Origin: 6/2/90 - New number for Berean BBS, (317)328-9244 (1:231/170)
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