CONGRESSIONAL HEARING: HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
                     TAMPA, FLORIDA JUNE 23, 1995
                          REV. W, HENRY GREEN

     I would like to thank the chairman and this committee
for the opportunity to speak with you today on this subject
that is so vital to the foundation of our free society. I am
the parent of three children, two already in school. Matthew
is going into middle school this year and Natalie will enter
the first grade. They are both in public school and my wife,
Irene, is a substitute teacher in the public schools of
Pincllas County. My undergraduate degree is in secondary
education and I taught for a brief time in Jacksonville
after seminary, before entering the ministry on a full-time
basis. As a family we are deeply involved in the lives of
our children ant take seriously our responsibility as
parents for the social, educational ant spiritual
development of our children. As a Southern Baptist pastor, I
am concerned that we maintain and protect the wall of
separation between church and state that allows us to teach
our children about God and prayer as we see fit, And that
keeps the government out of that process.

     John Leland, the Baptist neighbor of James Madison,
said, "The fondness of magistrates to foster Christianity
has done it more harm than all the persecutions ever did."
Leland was instrumental in helping Madison and Jefferson in
their work to establish the first amendment guarantee of our
religious liberty and the separation of church and state. It
was Thomas Jefferson who wrote in a letter to Connecticut
Baptists in 1802, "Believing with you that religion is a
matter that lies solely between man and his God, that he
owes account to none other for his faith, his worship, that
the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and
not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that
act of the whole American people which declared that their
legislature should "Make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,l thus
building a wall of separation between church and state."
Jefferson understood the importance of keeping religion and
government separate. He understood the historic realities
that led to wars over matters of religion. Thus, he - along
with the other founding fathers had the wisdom to establish
this wall that we must protect and defend today.
     I am appalled that once again we are having to debate
an issue that should have been settled long ago. We do not
need an amendment to the constitution. We do not need
legislation promoting religion. What we need is education
concerning already existing laws that protect American
citizens from the tyranny of government and from the tyranny
of religion. Yes, government and religion can do immense
amounts of evil when they are tied together. In last
Thursday's St. Pete Times there was a story about a couple
in Cairo, Egypt who are being forced by the religious
fundamentalists in that nation to get a divorce even though
they are happily married. The religious law that governs
marriage among Muslims in Egypt states that an apostate is
not entitled to be married to a Muslim. According to the
article, this case was brought by Islamic fundamentalists
who attacked a professor of Arabic literature at the
University of Cairo for his linguistic analysis of the
Koran. They objected to his combination of a secular outlook
with deep knowledge of the Koran and Islamic theology. In
spite of the fact that this professor says that he is a good
Muslim and that his writings were not meant to attack Islam,
the fundamentalists in Egypt continue to push for the
divorce. This is the evil that can be perpetrated on the
lives of innocent people when religion and government are
united.
     
     I was also appalled to read about Joshua Burton, the
fourth grade student at Columbia Elementary school in Orange
County, Florida. It is sad indeed if this story is true that
his Bible was taken away from him and he was interrogated by
the principal and other administrators in that school
system. His freedom was violated, but again, the solution to
the problem that Joshua and his family faces is not more
legislation, but education.

     For example, in public schools, students have the right
to pray individually or in groups or to discuss their
religious views with their peers so long as they are not
disruptive. Because the establishment clause does not apply
to purely private speech, students have the right to read
their Bibles or other scriptures, pray before meals and
before math tests, and discuss religion with anyone willing
to listen. As the pastor of a Baptist church, I have
encouraged my youth to carry their Bibles to school if they
so desire, because it is their right to do so. Many of our
students have met at the flagpole to pray before school.
Some have been involved in Bible studies after school hours.
Yes, students do have these rights and they must be
protected, but we do not need a constitutional amendment to
do so. These rights already exist.

     I have participated in baccalaureate services over the
years. School officials may not mandate or organize prayer
at graduation, nor may they organize a religious
baccalaureate ceremony. However, students may voluntarily
participate in a baccalaureate ceremony separate from the
graduation ceremony. The school may not and should not
extend preferential treatment to any religious group at
graduation. Students are free to have religion clubs and
groups on campus. Teachers are free to teach and study about
religion and its role in our history and our lives, as long
as they do not endorse a particular religion. Students may
wear T-shirts and other religious symbols without fear of
reprisal. Our laws allow for these and many other freedoms,
including the recognition of religious holidays. The equal
access act recently passed protects all of these freedoms.
We must educate the educators, not change the constitution.
I do not understand the philosophical inconsistencies of
those who say they want less government intrusion into our
private lives regarding taxes, the environment, and issues
related to welfare, and yet seem to want to add more
government interference by imposing government-endorsed
religion on our personal lives.

     Government should remain neutral in matters of
religion. Our founding fathers got it right! Let's don't
mess with a good thing. Leave religion to those in our
society who are called to share the message of their
religious persuasion. The proposal that is being set forth
will do major damage to the constitution, and to our
religious liberties, and will destroy the wall of separation
between church and state. I do not want to see religion, and
especially prayer, used as a tot by the state, or as a
political football to achieve the political ends on the left
or the right. We must learn the lessons of history and
maintain this precious freedom, this fragile freedom, of
church/state separation. True religion is trivialized when
it is used for governmental ends. We must again go back to
the words of Jefferson in 1777, when he wrote "that no man
shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious
worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, 
nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, .. nor shall otherwise
suffer, on account of his religious opinions or beliefs; but that all
men shall be free to profess, and by argument, to maintain, their
opinions in matters of religion. and that the same shall in no wise
diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. " We do not need
more legislation. We do not need an amendment to the constitution. What
we need is education.
 
    Down here in Florida, we like to play golf. One of my
favorite golf commercials is one that shows Fred Couples
advertising Lynx irons. The scene has Fred standing in I he
middle of the fairway hitting shots to the middle of the
green. ln the next scene, a tank comes from out of the rough
and fires at the green, destroying the green and sending the
flag flying. The comparison that is given is that the Lynx
irons are as powerful as the tank, but leave a slightly
smaller ball mark on the green. What is being proposed in
this current debate will be like the tank; it will destroy
the green. What is at stake is the very foundation of our
freedom. The first amendment to the Constitution of the
United States does not need further amending. Don't destroy
the Constitution. Don't destroy our way of life. Don't
destroy our freedom.

     Thank you again for allowing me the opportunity to
testify at these hearings.

                       W. Henry Green