Path: ncsuvm!taco!lll-winken!uunet!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!mantis!mwowm!mathew
From: mathew@mwowm.mantis.co.uk (Million Headed Monster)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: The FAQ File <--<< READ THIS FIRST
Summary: C'est ici
Keywords: FAQ
Message-ID:
Date: 23 Jul 91 01:03:02 GMT
Expires: 22 Aug 1991 12:00 GMT
Reply-To: mathew@mantis.co.uk
Organization: Hamburgers for WOTAN, Inc.
Lines: 380
The Infrequently-Posted Frequently Asked Questions File for Alt.Atheism
=======================================================================
Yes, finally we have definitive proof of the existence of this mysterious
entity! Believers hold that the mythical FAQ file was originally put together
by Brian Evans, the Mathemagician, and handed down on stone tablets to the
faithful. This sacred covenant was lost for what seemed like centuries, but
at last a copy has been unearthed...
I've been collecting people's suggestions for the FAQ list for a long time
now. I've expanded on the original list quite a bit (it's about twice as
big!), corrected some typos and spelling mistakes, and tidied up some grammar
here and there.
I've put it into a ``statements and refutations'' style, like the FAQ list in
news.announce.newusers, because I think that makes it easier for people to
see if the point which they are thinking of making has been covered.
I've added an overview, and changed everything to `logical' quoting style.
Here's the result:
===
The Alt.Atheism Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) File
=====================================================
This file is for all new readers of alt.atheism.
Many groups of a `controversial' nature have noticed that new readers often
come up with the same questions, mis-statements or misconceptions and post
them to the net. To help prevent the constant debating of these points, this
post is to serve as a `guide' to what are some of the `tenets' of
alt.atheism.
This isn't to say that these things are not subject to further debate. It is
to say that these things *have* been considered by the readers here.
Overview of topics covered in this file:
1. ``Doesn't your life seem pointless if your soul gets terminated at
the end of your life cycle here on Earth? When lives are in danger
and families are in despair, what do you look to to comfort you?''
2. ``Atheists, in their heart of hearts, are really just theists who are
denying it.''
3. ``Atheists have no morals or ethics.''
4. ``Agnostics are people who "can't make up their minds".''
5. ``In The Bible it says...''
6. ``It is impossible to prove the non-existence of something.''
7. ``You said you were an atheist, so...''
8. ``Pascal's Wager demonstrates that it is foolish to be an atheist.''
9. ``I want to tell people about the virtues of my religion.''
10. ``I *know* from personal experience that God exists.''
11. ``Don't you find yourself wanting to believe in God?''
12. ``If theism is so wrong, why have so many cultures throughout history
developed a strong belief in a supreme being?''
13. ``The majority of people believe in some sort of God. Many famous
philosophers and scientists have concluded that God definitely exists.
Surely you don't value your opinion over all of theirs?''
14. ``Atheism is a religion just like any other; believing in atheism and in
science is just as much an act of faith as believing in a god.''
15. ``Don't you worry that you might suddenly be shown to be wrong?''
16. ``Everyone worships something.''
17. ``Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member,
so chains of causes must all have a first element, a causeless cause.''
18. ``Why are there are no hospitals dedicated to the Glory of the
Non-existence of Gods?''
19. ``The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God''
1. ``Doesn't your life seem pointless if your soul gets terminated at
the end of your life cycle here on Earth? When lives are in danger
and families are in despair, what do you look to to comfort you?''
Atheists do not despair due to their lack of belief in supernatural entities.
[Note that the use of "supernatural entities" is not an attempt to ridicule
them. It is an attempt to be all-inclusive of whatever being(s) you may
worship.]
The "point" and "meaning" in life for an atheist is determined by the
atheist, not by others. They do not "fear" death as they believe that there
is nothing to experience after death. As for damnation after death, why fear
what doesn't exist?
Many atheists feel that they will NOT be `lost' hen they die, since they will
have had an influence upon other people who will live on. Many more go
through life simply because they *like* existing, and are genuinely happy to
do so.
Even if lack of life-after-death _does_ make life seem pointless, so what?
Are we supposed to believe something because it helps us psychologically
[i.e. is comforting], instead of because it's true?
You are implying that whether or not there actually is a God is not
relevant for believing in one, so long as believing in one provides comfort.
You are asking that we put comfort ahead of truth.
Many atheists cannot make themselves believe in something which they
otherwise would not believe in, merely because they would be more comfortable
believing it. Even if they could do so, which is better: to believe
something true but uncomfortable, or to believe something false but
comfortable?
Most atheists put truth first. If searching for truth causes you to become
uncomfortable, that's too bad.
2. ``Atheists, in their heart of hearts, are really just theists who are
denying it.''
Most atheists (at least the ones on this group) have spent a lot of time in
personal study and are educated people. They have not stumbled upon their
conclusions blindly. If you want to post a "But have you considered..."
post, be forewarned that most of us have considered it.
Also, the claim that ``Everyone believes in *something*'' is not a valid
claim here. There are quite a number of people here who honestly do *not*
have a belief in anything except that their senses give them valid
impressions of the world around them. A few do not even take that on faith.
According to a Freedom From Religion Foundation study over 90% of the
atheists who responded came to atheism because religion did not work for
them. They found that what religion wanted them to believe and what they saw
around them simply did not work together.
Atheists are not unbelievers by default; they are predominantly unbelievers
by carefully considered choice. They have almost certainly heard ``the word
of God'', and rejected it.
3. ``Atheists have no morals or ethics.''
Atheists are of the opinion that morality is not something that necessarily
comes from ``a higher authority.'' Their morality comes from their
experience of how the world `ought' to work, not from someone else. While
some do feel that there is an `absolute' morality, it is not because a
supernatural being decreed it so.
Human beings are social animals who can only live fully when in co-operation
with their fellows. This is a good enough reason to discourage most atheists
from most forms of anti-social (`immoral') behaviour, purely for the purpose
of self-preservation. If there is a good reason independent of the existence
of any deities, why invent one?
Many atheists behave in what might be described as a moral way because they
feel a natural human tendency to empathize with other humans. You might ask
why empathize with others -- why care about things which cause others to
suffer? The answer is that there is often no reason. Many atheists simply
are that way.
4. ``Agnostics are people who "can't make up their minds".''
Most agnostics are of the opinion that determination of the existence or
non-existence of supernatural entities is not possible. They may go through
the world under the assumption that such things don't exist, but that is
because they have no evidence that such things do.
That is, they have no reason to believe that there is a supernatural entity
watching over them. However, that is no reason to assume that such an entity
isn't doing so.
5. ``In The Bible it says...''
Most of the readers of this newsgroup feel that this book is of questionable
accuracy as it was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were
recording oral tradition that existed many years before. Thus, any claimed
`truth' in it is of questionable legitimacy. This isn't to say that The
Bible has no truth in it; simply that any truth must be examined before being
accepted.
Many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is
subject to ``interpretation'', any claim that a passage `means' one thing and
one thing only is not legitimate.
Note that this feeling tends to extend to other books.
6. ``It is impossible to prove the non-existence of something.''
The typical alt.atheism counterexample to this is to point out that ``There is
no such thing as a square circle.'' Note that this deals with things which
are well defined. Whether or not supernatural entities are well defined is
debatable.
In practice, those who call themselves atheists do not claim that there is
absolutely no God, but limit any outright denials to varieties of "God" that
fit the descriptions followed by certain religions. Disproving such a
particular God may be done even though disproving the existence of all "gods"
cannot. Disbelieving in all gods-as-presented-in-religions is in practice
pretty close to disbelieving in all gods, but not close enough for arguments
requiring the latter to work.
7. ``You said you were an atheist, so...''
Words mean different things to different people. Just because a person
claims to be an atheist/agnostic/theist does not mean that that person
conforms to your opinions of him or to the tendencies delineated here.
8. ``Pascal's Wager demonstrates that it is foolish to be an atheist.''
Pascal's Wager does not indicate *which* religion to follow. Indeed, there
are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there. This is
often described as the ``Avoiding the wrong hell'' attitude. If a person is
a follower of religion X, he may end up in religion Y's version of hell.
Many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based on evidence,
with some amount of intuition. It is not a matter of will or cost-benefit
analysis.
The biggest reason why Pascal's wager is a failure is that if God is
omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as a
wager. He will spurn the latter...
9. ``I want to tell people about the virtues of my religion.''
Preaching is not appreciated, although it is sometimes good for a laugh.
Feel free to talk about your religion, but do not write postings that are on
a ``conversion'' theme. Such postings do not belong here (try the newsgroup
talk.religion.misc).
10. ``I *know* from personal experience that God exists.''
Just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship
exists, so do many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not
exist.
That evidence varies from person to person.
11. ``Don't you find yourself wanting to believe in God?''
Atheists live their lives as if there is nobody watching over them. Many of
them do not have any desire to have someone watching over them.
Besides -- even if it is what the individual wants, so what? Should an
individual believe things to be true because he *wants* them to be true
rather than because they are true?
12. ``If theism is so wrong, why have so many cultures throughout history
developed a strong belief in a supreme being?''
Atheists would say that it is simply a human weakness to believe in gods, to
help people to understand what they could not otherwise understand. Atheism
was not prevalent in early civilizations because those civilizations lacked
alternative (non-supernatural) explanations for many things.
It is also worth pointing out that many cultures have developed 'religions'
which do not have a supreme being in the Western sense.
As to why religion is so successful at propogating itself -- it is simply
that it has certain characteristics which make its ideas prone to survival.
For example, religions aid their own survival by inducing believers to
destroy unbelievers, by requiring believers to proselytize, by discouraging
believers from questioning doctrine, and so on. These spread of a belief does
not necessarily have anything to do with whether it is true or whether it
'works'. Consider the widespread belief in astrology.
13. ``The majority of people believe in some sort of God. Many famous
philosophers and scientists have concluded that God definitely exists.
Surely you don't value your opinion over all of theirs?''
Truth is not determined by the beliefs of the majority. A great many people
believe in astrology. People used to believe that the world was flat.
For every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god, there is one who
does not.
Remember also that atheists do not look to famous scientists or philosophers
in the way that theists look upon gods or prophets. Famous men are humans;
with knowledge in certain areas, but still humans. In an area where they
lack special knowledge, an atheist doesn't give any more credence to their
words than to the words of an ordinary human. Many scientists have made
themselves look foolish when speaking outside of their area of expertise.
14. ``Atheism is a religion just like any other; believing in atheism and in
science is just as much an act of faith as believing in a god.''
It is necessary to believe in a certain number of unproven axioms in order to
form a useful model of the way the world works. Most atheists try to believe
the absolute minimum number of unproven assertions; and even those are always
subject to questioning if direct observations of events which take place cast
doubt on an atheist's beliefs.
If you like, you can call it an act of faith, yes; but the important point is
that an atheist's beliefs which are taken on `faith' are *always* open to
question. This is not the case for Judeo-Christian religious belief.
15. ``Don't you worry that you might suddenly be shown to be wrong?''
The shortest answer to this is ``No, do you?''
Many atheists have held their beliefs for many years, and have yet to be
proven wrong. They therefore reason that they are unlikely to be proven
wrong, and cease to worry about it.
You might feel that the theist's worry is less because even if he is wrong,
he is playing it safe. That's Pascal's Wager -- see item 8.
In fact, many atheists would be *happy* to believe in the existence of a god;
all that they ask is that he provide convincing direct evidence of his
existence.
16. ``Everyone worships something.''
If so, everyone is a polytheist. Theists care just as much about those
things that atheists care about. If the atheists' reactions to (for
example) their families amounts to worship then so does the theists'.
17. ``Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member,
so chains of causes must all have a first element, a causeless cause.''
The set of real numbers greater than zero and less than ten has a definite
lower bound, but has no smallest member.
Further, even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause, that does
not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity.
18. ``Why are there are no hospitals dedicated to the Glory of the
Non-existence of Gods?''
There are plenty of charities without religious purpose that atheists can
contribute to. Many atheists have also contributed to religious charities,
for the sake of the practical good some of them do.
Most atheists do not feel the need to shout about their lack of belief. It's
just a simple everyday thing.
19. ``The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God.''
It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the
universe. Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living
creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the
newsgroup talk.origins for a while.
There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of the debate here.
However, the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour of
the existence of any creator. Furthermore, there is much evidence,
observation and theory which can explain many of the complexities of the
universe and life on earth.
===
Suggestions, corrections and additional material to me by mail, please.
mathew
