From: Shiv Jhawar on 1:129/34
  To: Ray Osborne
  Re: CAN, SCP REFERENCES...

> When I read your message I envisioned all
> the poverty, starvation of masses of poor people in the
> country of India. Your religion teaches people not to ask
> God for help ?

Have you seen any Hindu begger in America? But there are "hippies"
(people taught by your religion) seen as beggers in India.

You think people die of starvation in India but what do you think of
people dying out here? Go take round of cemeteries in America...find
out how big the cemetaries are.

Do you know what religion the great people who made America rich
Belonged to? James Watt, George Stephenson, Thomas Edison, Wright
brothers, Emerson, Thoreau, Henry Ford and others who made America
rich...none of them belonged to your Christian religion. Only credit a
christian has is of inventing the gun powder [that was the Chineese].
You still boast of your religion?  Your christian religion is based
on the fundamental belief that Mary was virgin and Jesus Christ was
born out of her. Do you consider this rational? Further, you
Christian belief that Jesus died and rose from the dead? Is it
rational? Do you still boast of your rational religion and condemn
the poor people of India for their Hindu religion?

Just as the prosperity of America was not caused by the Christian
religion, the poverty in India was not caused by the Hindu religion.
You really seem to be a child when you try to condemn the Hindu
religion. Please do not take offence. I just thought you would like to
improve your understanding.

Just think of a person born in Karachi, Pakistan In 1942. If you ask
that person where was he born, he would reply that he was born in
India. To this answer, if you do not know any history, you will
consider the answer entirely wrong because to your understanding
Karachi is in Pakistan, and not in India. But, my friend, the person's
answer is correct; before August 15, 1947, there was no Pakistan;
Karachi was in India. In the same way, your Christian religion, Hindu
religion, Buddhist religion, Islamic religion did not even exist at a
time when there was still a God but none of these human religions on
earth existed. What do you think of your God now?

Do you know the religion which teaches people to beg God for help is a
religion, but a third class religion. Do you really think in your
rational mind that God would be happy to see beggars?

> I pray that they receive
> Jesus Christ and that it tears down all those caste barriers
> that your religion encourages. I pray that more Indians
> turn to Jesus and ask Him for a loaf. For I know this God
> won't give them a serpent.

When you talk of the caste barriers, are you aware of the caste/classes
that exist in the Christian religion? Thank you for your prayer that
more Indians turn to Jesus, but why did you not pray that they turn to
God.  How much commission do you get from Jesus?  My friend, why do you
make a religion a commercial enterprise.  Any religion exist to
increase love of people toward God.  It is ridiculous to differentiate
among the great religions on earth. The prophets/sons that came to
found great religions like Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam
wanted people to love one another and pray to God. When a simple man
here can have so many chidren, what makes you think that the great God
will be limited to just one son called Jesus Christ? Is that rational?
Change your defective understanding...all sons of God teach the great
commandments to the humanity, they all come from the same university,
so as to speak. No son of God ever taught hatred, violence, and the
like. In fact, the great father would feel very bad and hurt seeing any
of His sons condemned. The great spiritual masters of India (including
Swami Vivekananda, Swami Ramtirth, Yogananda Paramhansa, Prabhupad of
Hare Krishna, Siddha Guru Muktananda who visited America) never
condemned Jesus Christ or the Christian religion. You will do well to
understand what they talked about. Jesus Christ was a son of God and
everyone should have the greatest respect toward Him. In fact, there is
no difference between a christian principle and a Hindu principle. The
differences are between so-called Christianity and the so-called
Hinduism. Just sleep is a fact, there is no such thing as Christian
sleep and a Hindu sleep...sleep is just a sleep, in the same way God is
God, there is no such thing as a Christian God, and a Hindu God. Nobody
has a monopoly on God...he never appointed anybody as His exclusive
agent to preach.

From: Janardana Dasa on 1:129/34
  To: Shiv Jhawar
  Re: REPLY

Good points.  To these, I would like to add my own observations for the
benefit of those who would use religion as an economic tool...

So many folks want to judge the world in terms of "good Christian
theology" and the "pagan, heathen EVIL world of non-christians."
Many have, on various echoes, accused my chosen faith as being
"of the devil" because of all the starving people in India, etc.

Don't you think that looking at the world through a political
perspective such as this is COUNTER to the very religious
principles you claim to promote?  You're attributing the poverty
of one culture as a percent a product of the religion it holds
dear.  Where is the principle of "love Thy Neighbor" when you
can't even get past the racial-social-economic differences
without condemnation, distrust and paranoia?  If God is the God
of all, wouldn't He surely want to see everyone healthy and
happy, in His loving service?

How can you seriously judge the prosperity of the West by its
acceptance of Christianity?  Judging the spiritual through
materialism doesn't make much sense, but if this is the standard,
lets do a cross examination here (since my religion seems to be
on trial):

In the West, the majority of folks claim Christianity.
In the West, most of the Governments are filled with Christians.
In the West, nuclear weapons have become a fact of life.
In the West, these weapons were used against whole populations.
In the West, psychotropic drugs and narcotics are accepted by
             the masses as "solutions" to problems.
In the West, sex is mass marketed and used to brainwash
             perspective consumers into BUYING, and animal-like
             sexual-intercourse magazines FLOURISH.
In the West, gambling is promoted by governments via LOTTO's
In the West, convenience technology can DIRECTLY be attributed to
             the earth's destruction (ozone, global warming, etc)
In the West, more people per capita are in prisons/psyc-hospitals
In the West, people are taxed for their LABOR rather than
             rewarded for it.
In the West, it is ill-advised to be a black man.
In the West, despite all the God-given prosperity, people freeze
             to death in Chicago, New York, London, etc., and the
             homeless are forced to BEG for meals.

Shall I go on?  So, rather than accuse the RELIGION for the
social illnesses, lets get to the root of them and blame
OURSELVES for the plight of our neighbors.  Lets STOP dumping our
wheat and grains into the ocean and do the God-loving thing and
distribute it to the world that need it.  Christ Himself fed the
multitudes BEFORE they were Christians!  Was this a bribe?  No!
He saw through his compassion that they were hungry.  He did not
say "Oh, these folks are Jews, or heathens, let them starve till
they become Christian..."

  In Bhagavad-gita, the Lord says "Just abandon all varieties of
religion and surrender unto Me."  If the Christian Supremacists
would look a few inches beyond their noses, they could certainly
help to make the world a better place to live FOR ALL.

Hare Krishna.