[LONG POST ON MOSLEM BEHAVIOR - HOPEFULLY MY LAST - WHICH IS
A REPLY to Fred Rice (darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au)]

Since Islam had its origins in Saudi Arabia and the Koran is written
in Arabic I would think, that of all the people in the world, the people
in Saudi Arabia would have had the most time to assimilate Islam into
their society. Now whether or not they have is a matter for hair-
splitting Islamic scholars to decide, but who can deny that they have
had better access for a greater length of time than any other group
of people in the world?

I would then think, if there are any real world examples, that Saudi
Arabia is as good as any for deciphering the behavior of Moslems in
the real world. I just don't think Moslems in Australia, Canada, 
Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc., have quite the same grasp of all
the subtle nuances that a true blue Saudi has (of the LANGUAGE if
NOTHING ELSE). So what is wrong with using them as a barometer of
the effects of Islam? Is it invalid because they do not do everything
their holy book tells them? Or is that perhaps more evidence that
their holy book is crap? A believer might say one, a non-believer
the other.

If someone howls that the Saudis have turned from the "true way" of
Islam, is that not further indication of the weakness of Islam, that
it cannot even hold the imaginations of the people who originally
started it? That they are somehow in on the "sham" that everyone
else believes? I mean if the Nazi's had written a code of ethics
which said "Everyone be nice to Jews", but then they continued with
the holocaust, would anyone just say that the people who did this were
not "real" Nazi's or would you just think that they knew the code of
ethics was just a front to be ignored when convenient? Could the
same not be true of religious codes of actions? It looks awfully
suspicious to me to say one thing while doing another. Good
intentions are cheap. Good actions have some value.

And as for my posts about what the Moslems do (in particular Saudis),
I back that with my personal observations and discussions with local
Thai people. Other people have observed the same, so I am fairly
certain that I was not hallucinating the entire thing. I have stayed
in the Nana Hotel and the President Hotel which are only a few blocks
from the Grace Hotel. The Grace Hotel coffeeshop is pretty infamous.
It is probably mentioned in most of the travel guides to Thailand.
The people who stay there are mostly from the Middle East and primarily
Saudis. The bar girls will tell you that the Saudis are the most
abusive customers they have. What else need I say about this? I may
return to Thailand again this year, do you want me to do interviews and
post .WAV files? (Not that I would, I go for vacation and I do not 
particularly like visiting the Grace Hotel).

I also lived in Indonesia for about a year and observed quite a bit of 
religious hypocrisy in that country as well. In particular, there were
about a dozen single "european" men where I worked and yet we were
somehow responsible for the large number of prostitutes (in the
hundreds!) which lined the waterfront. Of course, no Moslems would
EVER visit these prostitutes, so we were the only people (as nasty
"Christians") who could be responsible! It is hypocrisy and lies, pure
and simple. I've been there, I've seen it. The more repressive the
religion, the more the people seem to lie about it. In the context of
my personal experiences, the statement:

Fred Rice (darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) writes:
>>: Remember that before Islam, people used to own slaves, kill others for
>>: insults, gamble, drink alcohol, take interest on loans, and everything
>>: else you think of as good!

THIS IS ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT.

And just to show that I am not the only person who knows about the funny 
business in Bangkok I present an excerpt from soc.culture.arabic:

> From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Bulbul)
> Subject: Re: Prelim. Results of Fall 1992 Saudi Census.
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
> [deletia]
> This is an additional reason why "business trips" to Bangkok are in
> order. I think for small numbers, business trips to Bahrain (Brittish
> whores) may be very helpful, especially to not-so-rich Saudis.
> [deletia]

Maybe other people talk primarily about abstractions and made up
scenarios for purposes of discussion, but I am basing my posts on
personal experience. That may be different from yours, but it is
real. It is just not the part that people like to discuss when
putting up a good front for their cause.

And I am not saying that the Moslems are the ONLY people who do
this, either. Nor is the claim that the Saudi's are the worst of
the Moslems accurate as some would imply. I've seen similar behavior
from other Moslems as well. Now, without knowing each and every
Moslem no one can make statements about them all, but I have met a
more than a few in Moslem countries and in large groups outside
Moslem countries. I have recieved phone-in death threats from
local Moslems for speaking about atheism on a radio show. Frankly,
I'm not very impressed with the products of Islam that I have met
and I see no reason to pull punches. And while it may be fair to
say I have an anti-Moslem hatred, to call it prejudice is to not
understand the meaning of the word. I think postjudice would be a
better description of my attitude, and while my hatred is very
select, my distrust of Moslems, however, is fairly general.
This I will admit.

===================================================================

Fred Rice (darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) writes:
FR> "As in every religion, there are certain people who take a more
FR> conservative tack on things.  The entire Islamic community did
FR> not place a death sentence on the head of Salman Rushdie, one
FR> person (the Shah) did.  Many Muslims would be more than happy
FR> simply to dismiss him as an unbeliever and not read the book. 
FR>
FR> Don't condemn an entire religion for the actions of a specific
FR> member or a specific group of members.
      


As in every political group, there are certain people who take a more 
conservative tack on things. The entire nation of Nazi Germany did not
place a death sentence on the jewish community. Do not condemn the Nazi
party for the actions of a specific member or a specific group of
members.   -- Keith M. Ryan

===================================================================
>Islam is the perfect way of life.  It is the unaltered word of God.

Bobby Mozamder, this is an out and out misrepresentation.  Would
you please explain the plight of the Bosnian Muslim women to me?
These women were raped, deliberately, by Serbian occupying forces.
Their families will have nothing to do with them because of their
shame.  You consider this "fair treatment"?  I think this is
completely sickening.  First they suffer the horrors of rape, and
then they are rejected by their own community, for something they
did not do, or wish.  Some of these women are committing suicide.
A "perfect way of life."  Not.

Islam has a sickening view of women and I would sooner cut my
throat than live under an Islamic regime.  Islam, like Christianity,
considers woman the temptress and man the unwilling victim, and
puts the burden on the woman to not "tempt" the man.  Inotherwords,
Islamic and Christian men use their religion to justify their 
inability to take responsibility for their behavior.

>May Allah guide you to the truth,

May Gaia teach you how to be a man without abusing women.

=======================================================================

> The entire Islamic community did not place a death sentence 
> on the head of Salman Rushdie, one person (the Shah) did.

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

a) It was Ayotolla Khomanai that placed the fatwa on Salman Rushdie,
the religious leader of a major Islamic sect.  

b) It seems that the majority of muslims are happy to go along with
it as there have been no protests in support of Rushdie.  If the Pope
placed a fatwa on the Monty Python team for 'The Life of Brian' and
the Catholic community didn't lift a finger to protest, then I would
think it fair to assume that ordinary Catholics, at least tacitly,
supported the sentence.

-- 

Leonard               e-mail:  L.Newnham@bradford.ac.uk