Subject: Larson Symposium BOB LARSON SATANISM SYMPOSIUM NOV. 4, 1989 Number of Attendees -

From: Rowan Moonstone Subject: Larson Symposium BOB LARSON SATANISM SYMPOSIUM NOV. 4, 1989 Number of Attendees - Approximately 500. There were 3 sections of seats, each holding approximately 150 - 170 chairs. Advertising had been exclusively on the Bob Larson radio talk show for three weeks preceding the symposium and a write up in the Denver area newspaper. Geographic Spread of Attendees - As far as I could tell, there was a wide spread in the geographic areas represented. I personally observed name-tags from Arkansas, Texas, Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Manitoba, California, and Florida. Age Spread of Attendees - Mostly persons in their early 30's to early 50's. The youngest attendee was around 8 and the oldest that I saw were Larson's parents who are both in their 80's. There was a liberal sprinkling of teens as well. Atmosphere - Not nearly as rabid as I had expected. Most of the people were highly ignorant, and were swallowing the Larson party line 110%. I did talk to some skeptics later, though. Approximately 1/3 of the audience was police personnel, according to Larson. The symposium was offered free of charge to one member of each police force in attendance, as well as to one member of the clergy from each church represented. The most vocal and vehement representatives were a couple of cops from the south Texas area. Both of these guys, one Hispanic and one black gave lengthy "preachy" speeches about how the forces of Christ would win out over the forces of evil. CWR arrived about 10 minutes late and seated ourselves in the back of the room. Bob Larson was giving the welcome speech to the people. According to Larson, there are only 3 world views. The first is the Judeo-Christian view that believes in a personal God and a personal devil. The second is the Secular Humanist view. Secular Humanists, according to Larson, believe that evil is the absence of good, and that the devil is an archetypical myth. Their view might be best summed up by saying that "evil is the presence of what happens when good men do nothing." The last world view is that of the Satanist. Larson divided this group into various sub-groups. 1. Dabblers - believe that the devil is a "convenient excuse to explore curiosity" 2. Self-styled - use the devil as a rationale for antisocial behavior. 3. Generational - use the devil as a philosophical validation for ritual abuse 4. Religious - the devil is an excuse for vices. He says that Satan's greatest weapon is the silence of the Christian community, the law enforcement community, educators, political leaders, preachers, and teachers. LARRY JONES Jones began by saying that this was one of the largest audiences that he had attended for quite a while. He said that he had developed CCIN to provide training information to law enforcement and to develope resources for the media, education, mental health, and churches. In reference to sAtanism, he said," It's happening right in your own living room." and went on to reference the children's cartoons (a la Phil Phillips)F and horror films as proof of this statement. Jones claims to be an 18 year veteran of the Boise P.D. His father is a mortician, and at least two other members of the Boise P.D. ,( a night patrol officer and the property room manager ) are on the Board of Directors of CCIN. Jones outlined his reasons for believing the outrageous statistics of 50,000 - 60,000 human sacrifices a year. He's taking runaway statistics of 2.5 million. He also claims that many children who disappear are NOT taken by non-custodial parents, but are nabbed by ,"pedophiles, satanist cults, and white slavers." He also cites large numbers of people he refers to as "untraceable." By this, he means the criminal element (drug dealers, prostitutes, etc.)and transients (the senile, the homeless and the "street people"). He terms this the "availability pool." The second set of statistics he relies on was collected by Dr. Al Carlisle of the Utah State Penitentiary System in 1985. Carlisle questioned inmates about involvement in human sacrifice cults. The figures he arrived at were 50,000 to 60,000 human sacrifices a year. He arrived at this figure by taking the number of alleged cults and multiplying it by the number of alleged sacrifices per year per cult and arrived at his conclusion. When asked where the bodies were, he says they are disposed of in many ways, including: 1. Eaten and the bones used for ritual implements (With the exception of Matamoros, I know of NO incidents where ritual implements have been found constructed of human bones and/or skin.) 2. Fed to animals such as hogs or dogs.(Hogs and dogs don't consume bones.) 3. Buried (Despite numerous claims by both children and adult "survivors", and much digging, no bodies have yet been found.) 4. Dumped at sea. (Certainly believable for those who live near an ocean. However, one clipping in the CWR files has a kid in El Paso Texas saying he witnessed a murder and the body was taken out to sea and dumped. It's a LONG way from El Paso to the ocean.) 5. Dumped down abandoned mine shafts.(Certainly a possibility) 6. Burned and the ashes saved. (The old myth of the "portable crematorium.) According to Larson, "Satanism is an outlet for problems the individual is unable to cope with." He thinks the general public and Christians in specific need knowledge and tools to work with on this problem. He then quotes Ken Lanning as saying that the FBI only has statistics on 20,000 murders a year and said, "This controversy over statistics is making me ill." He characterizes Lanning as having a "bureaucratic mentality" and says that no area wants to be known as the area that has Satanic crimes. He thinks Lanning's quotes that if this was going on it was the greatest conspiracy in the history of the human race is a correct and accurate quote. He genuinely BELIEVES that it is the world's greatest conspiracy. He spoke of such things as red herrings being perpetrated to try to discredit the statistics, and of networking among the detractors. He mentioned that there is even a newsletter called "Cult Watch Response" which comes out about 2 weeks after File 18. He sees the statistics as being manipulated in any desired way by the statisticians and says that things will not be satisfactory until,"we get to the point where every uniformed officer is trained to the point where they can legitimately identify Satanic involvement and there is a system in place to handle it." He then spoke of some actual cases in File 18 and told the audience to push for corroborative evidence, and if they had someone coming out of one of these cults, to try to get them out with evidence. Jones says that Satanic cults are based on power, control, and revenge. Speaking of his definition of a Satanist, he said," Satanism- people worshipping a deity other than the God of the Bible," and commented that in the occult,"all roads lead to the middle." He then said,"We're not trying to cram the Bible down everybody's throat." However, according to Jones,"subtle New Age" philosophies in music and the schools are making the children more susceptible to Satanism. Eventually, he says, the worship of Satan requires blood, either one's own, the blood of an animal, or the blood of a human victim. The type of death must be prolonged and painful. constitutional protection if there is a crime committed during the practice of the religion. According to Jones,"you cannot be a dedicated Satanist without violating the law of the land." (Combined with his earlier definition of a Satanist, it now appears that all non-Christians are criminals.) Jones listed several crimes as good suggestions for obtaining search warrants and/or arrests on various "occult groups" including ritual sex with juveniles, ritual abuse, drug use, and animal cruelty. He suggested many ways in which officers could be on the lookout for these crimes. Jones claims that Satanists have bragged openly of their ability to commit capital crimes without being caught. Opponents of the Carlisle theory, according to Jones, state that if there is no statistical data base, there is no problem. He, on the other hand, believes that if there is no awareness, there are no reports. Lack of reports means no statistics. He advised people to keep reporting incidents until there is a data base built up. Supposedly, there has been a study conducted by the Adam Walsh Center which seeks correlation between abduction dates and "occult holidays." Jones maintains that of the first 40 cases reported to the Center, 30 of them had correlating dates with two holidays. He declined to specify which two. Paul Sullin with POWSIG has talked to the Walsh Center, which he's worked with in the past, and the woman who was compiling g the statistics no longer works there, and they know nothing about the study she was conducting, as she took all her data with her when she left. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Q. (Bob Larson) What can the average person do with this information? A. Maintain a healthy skepticism. Back the stories with facts. Self-education. He recommended videotapes particularly "America's Best Kept Secret" as a way to do this. He also advised people "don't try to generate things" and be willing to admit that their kids might be involved. Q. (Female attendee, Task Force on Occult Crime from East Tennessee) Why are reports with evidence not made public? Is there a suppression of evidence? A. "You're talking conspiracy theory here." Jones then refused to get involved with that concept citing, instead, the resistance a community might have to bad publicity. He touched on what he called the "credibility wars" between "experts." Q. (Larson) What about accusations that the police in communities are involved with the cults? A. (Jones) Jones related that he knew that some of the police were involved with cults because the File 18 mailing list ended up in the hands of Witches, and posted on some Wiccan computer BBS's. Again, the implication here is that only Christian cops are to be trusted. Q. Rev. Stanton, (Jake, Texas) How do you handle skepticism from the public? A. (Jones) Press for corroborative evidence and pray that the Lord will expose it. Q. Craig (California) How do you bring this information to the churches? A. (Jones) Point out examples on videotape. I recommend "America's Best Kept Secret" as a good reference. Remember, it's spiritual warfare first. Q. Rebecca (Tampa, Fl former cultist) What do you do about what you know? A. (Jones) Fear is the most used tool of Satanists. Write your experiences down in a journal and document it with photos. Q. (Couldn't hear the name) Remarked on rumors about Satanic activity in Manitou Springs, which is a suburb of COS. (I've heard these rumors for years and have been unable to substantiate them. Others in this area that I have talked to about the Manitou area have indicated that they have also been unable to substantiate the rumors. It should be noted that Manitou Springs is a tiny tourist town, and any unusual activity is likely to be noticed by the neighbors. There are, however, several outlying houses back in the hills which are relatively isolated from the main town goings-on. It is possible, but I think highly unlikely that something sinister is going on there. Q. Cindy (Cincinnati) This lady indicated that she has a friend who was involved with some form of Satanism, and that she had read Maury Terry's book " The Ultimate Evil". She also commented on the "fear factor" which is used by destructive cults. A. Jones - "Satanists use fear as a tool. Collect as much documentation as you can and keep it under lock and key." He also suggested making it known to the public at large that such documentation exists, and that it would be made public in the event of anything untoward happening to the person that collected it. Jones suggested that persons holding such information have private meetings with the police. Q. Pam (Dallas, TX) What about rumors such as cults attempting to kidnap children? How can individuals approach the police? She went on to indicate that when she had contacted the Dallas police about the standard rumors that cults were seeking to kidnap area children as possible human sacrifices, the police had not treated it in a serious manner, and had indicated to her that the whole thing was hysteria from a misinformed public. She was quite upset by this attitude. A. Jones- Before you meet with the police, have your facts in order. Follow the chain of command and document everything. Larson - Your publicity is your protection. CONCLUSIONS Jones is VERY upset about three points: 1. He's still highly peeved that the "File 18" mailing list was made public. Apparently, it had never occurred to him that policeman and women could also be Witches and other non-Christians 2. He's very concerned that many of the so-called "Experts" such as "Dr." Rebecca Brown and Pat Pulling are now having their credentials and credibility called into serious question, with some really outstanding results. His comment about the war of credibility making him ill is ample evidence of his concern on this issue. 3. The final concern that he seems to have is that his experts have no hard evidence with which to document his claims. Over and over he emphasized to the audience the importance of documentation and corroborative evidence. We at WIN and CWR and other organizations have finally pushed home our point on this issue. The only concern that I have is that someone may get over-anxious and MANUFACTURE the evidence to support the claims of international conspiracies and ritual abuse. After his lecture, I went up and eavesdropped on Jones' conversations with many people. About the only useful thing I overheard was a conversation between him and some folks who wanted to subscribe to "File 18". His reply to them was to get into a working relationship with a cop they trusted who could subscribe and pass the information on to them. He remarked that he had had many reporters contact him and say they'd really like to be on his mailing list. His comment on that was ,"Yeah, I'll just bet they would." During lunch break, we introduced ourselves to Mr. Jones. His reply, after picking up his jaw from the floor was, "Ah, the Loyal Opposition showed up." My answer to that was,"You bet. You don't think I'm gonna let you get this close and not hear what you have to say, do you?" Jones said,"Well, we told folks that if they didn't like what we were printing then print their own newsletter. CWR's answer to that was,"Yep, and we took you up on the challenge. By the way, thanks for the free publicity. We can use it." Jones looked ill. When asked about the C.H.R.I.S.T. letters, Jones replied that although they had been attributed to CCIN by many folks, his organization had nothing to do with them. He held the position that CCIN did NOT advocate violence in any form. I told him we were pleased to hear it. Roper supposedly began his studies with Silva Mind Control and went on into study of Hatha Yoga. He researched demonology and then later became a Born Again Christian. He now claims to work with the DEA in Miami and claims that there is a large connection between drug runners, voodoo, and Witchcraft. His information on Afro-Caribbean religions is fairly accurate. He's working with Rafael Martinez and Charles Wetli of the Dade County Medical Examiner's office and they are some of the REAL experts in this matter. He also claims to have worked with the Mid-West Gang Investigation Association and with the parents of the McMartin pre-school children. Among the sources of information that he recommends are the Sept. 1989 issue of the Minnesota Police Chief Magazine. (Can someone get us a copy of this?) Also Tom Wedge's book The Satan Hunter. Wedge's book , while it is not nearly as bad as it might be, is more than sufficiently bad to warrant alarm at anyone who would recommend it as serious research material. Most of Roper's presentation consisted of slides and clips from videos on rock music and children's cartoons and horror flicks. He dwelt extensively on the various alphabets used by supposedly destructive cults, totally ignoring the fact that if the graffiti is any indication, most of the adolescents who become involved with Satanism can't even spell in ENGLISH, let alone in some strange, archaic alphabet. Some of the unusual alphabets he showed even included shorthand and braille. (I wonder if he's saying that blind people and secretaries are really Satanists?) He also indicated that children from ritualistic child abuse cases are now using sign language . (Possible indications that hearing impaired folks are also involved with the cults?) Among the drawings he exhibited, was one he claims was done by a fourth grade kid. This may have been true, but if it was, the kid copied it our of a coloring book published by Troubador Press of San Francisco, and under copyright. Roper did have the eight Sabbats down correctly, and I saw no indication that he is in agreement with David Balsinger's "Satanic" calendar. According to Roper, the key theme in Satanism is power, and the common elements are secrecy, eclectic practices, and self- gratification and indulgence. He showed a film clip from an episode of "Friday the 13th, the T.V. Show" to illustrate how kids come by some of their ideas. The next section was devoted to slides from a warehouse called "Worldwide Imports" in North Hollywood, CA. This warehouse specializes in "occult" materials. I have a catalogue from them in my files. He showed slides of robes, candles, amulets, books, etc. According to Roper, Witches and Satanists have different intent, but the source of the power is the same. He also showed slides from a Fantasy Role Playing Convention which had such things as horror masks and pewter figurines for sale. Roper implied that such conventions were a good source of supply for Satanic Cults. Among the books recommended by him were The Ultimate Evil by Maury Terry,The Satan Hunter by Tom Wedge, Cults That Kill by Larry Kahaner, Satanism, the Seduction of America's Youth by Bob Larson, Like Lambs to the Slaughter and The Beautiful Side of Evil by Johanna Michaelson, The Devil's Web by Pat Pulling, The Edge of Evil by Jerry Johnston, a volume on the history of human sacrifice by Neville Drury, and William Bainbridge's Satan's Power on the Process Church of the Final Judgment. Other books shown in slides were The 6th and 7th Books of Moses, The Book of the Beast, The Dictionary of Angels, The Black Arts by Richard Cavendish, The Book of Ceremonial Magick by Dr. Israel Regardie, and various comic books. He talked about Aleister Crowley and said that Crowley's books were filled with desecration of the Christian religion. He related how he had received a letter from an OTO leader in Berkeley who was unhappy with many of the things he was stating and who had supposedly written to him, "Satan is an angel in good standing." He alleges that the OTO publishes a newsletter called "The Cloven Hoof" (which in fact is, or WAS, published by La Vey's Church of Satan). In the class of organized Satanists, he also included Dr. Michael Aquino, Charles Manson, and the Process Church. Roper next showed a newsclip of what he purported was a ritual Roper next showed a film clip of what he claimed was a child abuse cult. In fact, this was an early Florida newscast on the Finders. Later news stories reported that the Finders were not in any was Satanic, and the children who were removed from custody were returned to the care of their mothers. The next filmclip was from the film "Ghoulies" and was an attempt to illustrate infant sacrifice. This film, for those who haven't had it inflicted on you, has actual excerpts from the Gardnerian Book of Shadows, namely, the Circle casting, used out of context and in an entirely inappropriate manner. Check it out from your video rental store and see what I mean. Roper states that ritual child abuse includes isolation, sexual abuse, death threats, brainwashing, blackmail and desecration. He recommends the video "America's Best Kept Secret" as a valuable teaching tool. He claims that animal mutilations and thrill killings also are evidence of widespread cult activity. The next piece of "evidence" was a dramatic reading done by Vincent Price. The piece concerned an ancient formula for summoning the devil, and Price did an admirable job with it. Roper claims that this proves that Price is a Satanist and a Demonologist. ( I always thought he was an ACTOR!!. Silly me.) The last section of Roper's presentation consisted of clips from various rock songs and videos, mostly garnered for shock value. The sound quality was so poor on most of the songs that I couldn't make our a word that was being said. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Q. Larson - Are adults reaching our to kids? A. Roper - Yes. The kids are being desensitized by heavy metal music and horror films. Q. Doug- Aimes, Iowa P.D. - Whenever we present a program to a high school or church, we find that the programs just incite curiosity and get more kids involved than were involved previously. Bookstores indicate that sales of the Satanic Bible increase after one of the presentations. A. Roper - Be sensitive to the kids and understand their sub- culture. Many of the kids today are turned away by the churches. Jones - There has to be a balance between information and inciting curiosity. The information should come from the parents. They are the ones we should be educating. The family is being destroyed. Educate the parents. Larson - You have to take into account motive, environment, and structure. Our culture is pervaded with the occult and too many people are poo-pooing the problem, sensationalizing it and inciting curiosity. Q. Rev. Rich Faste, Flint, MI - Have you had a problem with researching the occult? Is there a danger? What is the difference between high level and low level Satanists? A. Roper - That depends on the maturity level of the person. Larson - What are the terms for the different levels of Satanists in the hierarchy? Roper - Experimental - Dabbler Self - styled - ie, Richard Ramirez, "The Night Stalker" Traditional - ie, La Vey & Acquino Generational - organized and networking family groups He also recommended a booklet entitled Ritual Crimes in America by Pat Pulling and available from BADD. I looked at his copy of this book, and it is composed of news clippings on accounts of ritualistic/Satanic crimes. I intend to send off for this ASAP. He also mentioned a Wicca baby dedication held in Wisconsin. Q. Angela Murphy, Teen Challenge, Omaha, NE - This woman claimed that she had interviewed 2 children from a Satanist family, and the kids said that they had to murder a human being before they reached the age of 2 years. The kids claimed that they had been given dolls to practice on and that they were trained with guns and knives. Ms. Murphy claimed that these children had been removed from the home by the authorities. A. Roper commented on the need to be watchful for that he called "victim impersonators" who had no evidence, relatives who didn't know what was going on, and time gaps in their stories. Q. Norman, San Diego, CA - He related a couple of run-ins with supposed Satanists, including one young skateboarder who had responded to Norman's shouts to get out of the street by bashing him in the nose and saying "I live for Satan" before skating off down the street. A. Roper related that you must evaluate the history and background of these kids. Most are rebelling against their families, and love is a critical ingredient in dealing with them. In dealing with Witches and Satanists, you must use logical, loving arguments. Q. (couldn't hear the name) L.A. Calif - What about backward masking? A. Roper - Back masking is very controversial. He recommends a video called "Satanism, Witchcraft, the Occult, What every teen must know." by Awakening Productions of Denver. The video is distributed by Brown Publishing - ROA Media, 2460 Kerper Blvd. Dubuque, Iowa, 1-800-922-7696 During the lunch break , we also introduced ourselves to Bob Larson. He insisted that we move from our places in the rear of the room to the front row. I suspect that he just wanted to keep an eye on us. He had us seated right next to Jack Roper and Larry Jones. Roper was cool, but Jones was obviously uncomfortable with the arrangement and about 1/2 hour into the afternoon discussion with the teen panel of Satanists, he got up and stood in the back of the room, leaning against the wall. The teen panel consisted of 5 kids live and Sean Sellers via phone hookup from McAllister Prison in Oklahoma. The panel was composed of Sally, who was a supposed ritual abuse survivor, Laurie who had studied various branches of Metaphysics, including Wicca, Dragon, a Heavy Metal street preacher and former white supremacist gang member, Jay, a Satanic High Priest and Jeff, who had recently been initiated into Satanism at Samhain. Sally spoke first. She was supposedly a member of a family that had been involved with Satanism for 28 generations since the 15th century. Her earliest memory is around the age of 5 when a rabbit was killed in her presence and she was told not to talk about it. She says it was her father's family that was involved with this, and her mother got her out of it, although her brother is still involved. She claims to have seen her first human sacrifice when she was 12 years old and to have witnessed over a dozen more in her years as a member of the cult. She claims that she didn't go to the police because 80% of the police in her town were involved with the cult. Incest is supposedly a big part of the practices of the group. she claims to have been impregnated by her father, but says that she lost the child in something that was a sacrifice to Satan "in a way." She claims that victims don't get out with evidence. Supposedly, one of the leaders in the group showed her a computer printout of a listing of "keymasters" who made up a computer network of cultists. She says this printout stretched the length of the room. Laurie says she used to be a "white witch" although she is not currently practicing. She uses crystals, tarot cards and various other tools that the Christians deem part of the "occult". She says she has many friends who are Wiccan, but that she herself is leaning more back towards her Catholic roots. She has studied many religions and says that her knowledge is a weapon against fear and ignorance. Mike or "Dragon" as he prefers to be called, is involved with promoting of Christian Heavy Metal music. He used to have the idea that "Christians are wimps". His dad's job took the family to Afghanistan and there he saw a lot of other religions. He was angry with his Mom because she was a strict disciplinarian and spanked him naked in the yard in front of his friends as a child. Having no way to deal with the emotional abuse, he turned to KKK groups for companionship. His dad was an alcoholic and he had friends involved with the occult. He didn't relate how he got "saved." Jay was a well-spoken, well-dressed 19 year old from Colorado Springs. His opening comments were," I'm not a cat killing Satan worshipper." He is an ex-Lutheran who feels that "God failed me. He showed me nothing." He says that Satanism gives him peace of mind. When asked "How can Satanism resolve anger?" his reply was "by not building up a pipe dream." "What do you do for the Devil?" Larson asked him. Jay replied that he performs ceremonies and rituals. In reference to Sean Sellers, Jay commented that he thought Sellers was mentally disturbed. Q: Larson j- "What assurances do we have living near you that the evil powers wouldn't make you slip over the edge?" A: Jay - "Because I don't have a brain disorder. I'm not mentally disturbed." Jeff is a 19-year-old who was initiated into Satanism on Samhain of this year. He opened his segment by saying," Except for religious views, I am a normal person. I'm not a leper. I'm a normal human being. You can come and talk to me." Larson tried to get him to say that during his initiation that blood was used, but Jeff maintained that it was a mixture of Bacardi and Mt. Dew in the chalice. Larson and the audience did not believe this for a minute. Q: Larson - As a Satanist, who do you invoke?" A: Jeff - "The 4 powers of Hell." q: Larson - "Why do you do this?" A: Jeff - "I wanted to be totally committed to my religion. I now feel better about myself." Q: Larson speaking to Sean Sellers via satellite hook-up - "Sean, did you hear the suggestion that you're crazy?" A: Sellers - "Yes." Q: Larson - "And are you?" A: Sellers - "No." Q: Jay - "Were you." A: Sellers - "Maybe. I don't think so." At this point Larson motioned for the CWR people to come to the microphone. He began by making snide references to the fact that we were sort of an "anti defamation for the Witches." I replied by stating that that was exactly right. We were the BOD of Cult Watch Response, which Det. Jones had mentioned earlier, and that I was the area co-ordinator for the Wiccan Information Network and Gerald was the area co-ordinator for the Wiccan Anti-Defamation League. Larson seemed a bit taken aback that his intended joke turned out to be more true than he knew. He asked us what we were doing there and we replied that we had come to see what was being said and to tell people what Witches were REALLY about. He wanted to know what kind of mis-information that I thought he was spreading and I told him that we didn't murder babies and hold wild orgies and that he darn well knew it, and he agreed. We chatted a bit more and finally agreed to disagree theologically. He wanted to know if we had any parting words, and we told him that the audience had no idea of the kind of courage it took to stand in front of an audience of 500 people who thought we were after their kids and tell them that we were not what they thought we were. He gave me a big hug and we returned to our seats. The audience was visibly shaken. Questions and Answers: Q: Eddie Unknown location) to Laurie - "You say knowledge is your weapon. Do you find anything subversive in the Bible?" A: Laurie - "I have found instances of human sacrifice in the Bible." Q: (couldn't hear the name or location) - What about moral values. Do you set them yourselves? If so, if society changes, do your values change?" A: Jay - "Possibly yes, possibly no, it depends." Q: Larson - "Is there anything that you believe is always wrong?" A: Jay - "Yes, rape. I don't think there's ever a time when it's right." Q: Police detective from Loveland to the Satanists - This was a statement that he thought the Satanists were being wishy-washy. He was a black man, and was quite vehement in his viewpoints, often shouting at the kids. Q: Larson to Jay - "Did you call upon the devil before you came here today?" A: Jay - "I called upon myself." Sally - "Anton La Vey did not start Satanism." Also, in the course of my conversation with Larson, he had mentioned that these kids were not following La Vey because they claimed not to do certain things outlined in The Satanic Bible.. I pointed out to Larson, that just because La Vey said it, didn't make it true. After the main seminar, Sally and her mother were going to have a private session with the law enforcement officers present. Following this discussion, there was a break. CWR was, as expected, deluged with curious people who wanted to talk to the Witches, or who wanted to save our souls. We handed out a LOT of business cards and "Origins of Halloween" pamphlets to folks. Among the questions that I can remember are the following: A lovely blonde lady from Texas said that her mother was a white Witch. She asked: "Now, you consider yourself a white witch, right?" "No. There is no such thing as a black or white Witch. Witches are Witches. Period." She then tried to get me to read Biblical passages concerning Witches. I told her I didn't believe it. She asked me why I was a Witch and I told her that Christianity didn't meet my spiritual needs. "Do you do out of body travel?" "No" "Do you use numerology?" "No. I've looked at it a bit, but I don't actively u se it." "Do you do trance channeling?" "No. I think it's a bunch of New Age hype." "Do you worship Pan?" "No ma'am. I worship a Celtic pantheon. Pan is Greek." "Well then what do you do that makes you a Witch?" "I am a priestess of the Goddess and THAT makes me a Witch." This lady never did understand that Wicca is a religion, just as Christianity is a religion. Two young men from Eugene Oregon talked to me. They started out with : "OK. You believe that our religion is wrong, right?" "Wrong. I believe it is wrong for ME. It's perfectly fine for you." "That's a pat answer. You believe it's wrong. If yours is right, ours has to be wrong." "Not at all. You seem perfectly satisfied with your religion. It's right for you. It's wrong for me." They never did seem to understand and seemed shocked when I wished them a safe and pleasant journey home. A young man in a "Jesus Saves" tee shirt accosted me by beginning, "you call on your demonic powers and I'll call on my Jesus and we both know who'll win." I looked puzzled and told him," But I have absolutely no desire to be confrontational with you." Now HE looked puzzled and said, "Well, I just wanted you to know Jesus loves you and I love you too." I smiled and thanked him. Now he REALLY looked confused. One lady came up and asked me about the necklace I was wearing. It is a lovely sting of moonstones given to me by my former HP. I told her they were moonstones. I had worn them to remind me to conduct myself as a HPS and not to get carried away. "What do they do"? "They're pretty rocks. I like pretty rocks." I know she expected me to state that they housed the spirit of my dead Grandmother or something. It was really awfully funny. A couple of cops spoke to us and asked us if they could call us if they had any need of "occult crime experts." We were delighted and said YES!!! They also run a ministry, but say that they don't buy everything that's told to them by Jones & co. One Christian minister stated that he had bought 10 different pamphlets on the occult from different ministries and complained that they all said something different. He also bemoaned the lack of documentation. He said that he had finally given up and read some of the Wiccan material. He was very glad to get the "Origins of Halloween" pamphlet with its documentation. The final session of the day was taken up with small 15 minute segments of recap and wrap up. Roper gave a presentation of Santeria that was surprisingly accurate. He presented a film by Charles Wetli, of the Dade County Medical Examiner's office which was excellent. Wetli is recognized as a genuine authority on Afro- Caribbean religions. According to Wetli, there was a great increase in Santeria with the Marielle boatlift in 1980. He gave an excellent presentation of the construction, use, and destruction of the Nganga, or cauldron used in Palo Mayombe. Roper states that black magick and adultery are significant traits of the Afro-Caribbean belief systems. He showed several slides of evidences gathered from various crime scenes in the Miami area, including chicken feathers and a 6" coffin obtained from Mt. Nebo cemetery in Miami. Larry Jones wrapped up his presentation by re emphasizing the importance of Passport magazine. He also praises Maureen Davies of "Reachout Trust" in North Wales. He spoke derisively of Arthur Lyons' allegation that the Satanic conspiracy theory was an urban myth and claimed that the DEA drug education manual mentions Satanism. Jones alleges that the occult promises instant power and gratification. He lists signs of occult involvement as : Loss of a sense of humor. Change in personal countenance & clothing to dark colors. Preoccupation with hopelessness and death themes in artwork. He recommended Believe the Children as a good source of books and literature on Satanic Ritual Abuse. D&D is seen as a "crash course in sorcery" and further signs of involvement are : Overindulgence in metal music. Sexual promiscuity. Drug and alcohol abuse. Extreme rebellion. Secretive & reclusive behavior. Drugs are seen as a recruiting factor because they deaden the senses, lend themselves to mind control and generate funds. He maintains that high level people are part of a "Satanist conspiracy".