Area:    Evolution
  Msg:    #316
 Date:    10-20-94 10:18 (Public) 
 From:    Jeff Doles               
 To:      Barbara Davidson         
 Subject: Help                     
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BD>Hi.   I need some help understanding evolution vs. creation.  I am a
BD>Christian who believes in Creation.  I have read a little on the
BD>subject, but not much. At the moment I am reading Darwin on Trial,
BD>and what Phillip E. Johnson has to say in this book makes sense.  Any
BD>comments would be appreciated.  Barbara.

   Welcome, Barbara.  I am a Christian, also (flavor -- evangelical).  I
   am a Creationist in the sense that I believe that God is ultimately
   the Creator of "life, the universe and everything."  But I am not a
   young earth Creationist (YEC) or a Scientific Creationist (SciCre).
   I believe that it is quite possible that God used evolution as one of
   His creative mechanisms.  I find nothing in the Bible that precludes
   this possibility.  The Theory of Evolution (TOE) -does- contradict a
   very literal interpretation of the Genesis account of Creation, but I
   think, as Christians, we need to be careful not to confuse our
   -interpretation- of the Bible with the Bible itself.  The Bible may
   be inerrant, but our interpretations may be quite fallible.  If you
   would like to discuss the biblical aspects of this question, just
   drop me a post over on Fidonet Open Bible.

   May I recommend a couple of books to you?

   -Science Held Hostage: What's Wrong with Creation Science AND
   Evolutionism- by Howard J. Van Til, Davis A. Young and Clarence
   Menninga (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1988)

   -The Fourth Day: What the Bible and the Heavens Are Telling Us about
   the Creation- by Howard J. Van Til (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1986?)

   Van Til, Young and Menninga are all Christians and professors at
   Calvin College.  Van Til is professor of physics and the other two
   are professors of geology.

   -Darwin's Forgotten Defenders: The Encounter Between Evangelical
   Theology and Evolutionary Thought- by David N. Livingstone (Grand
   Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987).  CBD (Christian Book Distributors) has been
   having a closeout on these -- I got my copy for two bucks.  I think
   you will be surprised to see how evangelical and conservative
   theologians of the late 19th and early 20th century responded to
   Darwin's theory.

   -The Creationists- by Ronald Numbers (1993?).  Gives a good
   historical account of the Creation/Evolution debate.  Henry Morris
   gives a good recommendation on the jacket blurb.

   -Creation and Time- by Hugh Ross (1993) gives some biblical and
   scientific arguments for an ancient earth.

   This echo (Fidonet Evolution) is pretty decently run.  Except
   for a couple of bad eggs, courtesy begets courtesy here.  Open,
   honest questions generally get open, honest questions.

   Peace be with you.


 * OLX 2.1 TD * Seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God.


--- WM v2.03/92-0261
 * Origin: Electro-Skeptic BBS Tampa FL 14.4 813-831-5706 (1:377/33)



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 Area:    Evolution
  Msg:    #317
 Date:    10-20-94 16:17 (Public) 
 From:    Jeff Doles               
 To:      All                      
 Subject: Assumptions              
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
  Just finished reading an article by Phillip E. Johnson, "Shouting
  'Heresy' in the Temple of Darwin," in the latest issue of
  -Christianity Today- (Oct 24, 1994) pp 22-26.

  Toward the end of the article Johnson stated, "What [Darwinian
  scientists] have done is to assume as a matter of first principle that
  purposeless material processes can do all the work of biological
  creation because, according to their philosophy, nothing else was
  available.  They have defined their task as finding the most plausible
  -- or least implausible -- description of how biological creation
  could occur in the absence of a creator."

  Question:

  Does evolution science assume that purposeless material processes can
  do all the work of biological creation?  Does it assume that nothing
  else exists?

  Johnson follows up with: "The specific answers they derive may or may
  not be reconcilable with theism, but the manner of thinking is
  profoundly atheistic."

  Question:

  Is the assumption of evolution science "profoundly atheistic?"

  Earlier in the article, Johnson cited Michael Ruse's talk at the 1993
  annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of
  Science as an example that will "indicate the problems that are ahead
  for Darwinists as the debate continues and expands."  Johnson said,
  "The talk was supposed to be an attack, but Ruse actually conceded the
  main point at issue between us.  Darwinism is founded upon a
  naturalistic picture of reality, he conceded, and this assumption
  needs to be defended honestly rather than concealed."

  Does anybody have a transcript of this talk?  Is this an accurate
  assessment?

  Johnson comments, "This concession will be fatal if the evolutionary
  scientists agree to make it, because the Darwinian version of
  evolution has hitherto been presented to the public as value-free
  fact."

  Peace to all.

 * OLX 2.1 TD * Elvis has left the building.


--- WM v2.03/92-0261
 * Origin: Electro-Skeptic BBS Tampa FL 14.4 813-831-5706 (1:377/33)