From: Michael Serfas
Subject: Evolution

I am new to this discussion; I hope I have not grossly misunderstood
anyone... I am one who spends his days in the admiration of God's
work, and who spends his nights blaspheming His name. What God? The
God of Christianity, the Allah of Islam, the Yahweh of Judaism, and,
perhaps, the Krsna of Hinduism --- all of which I suspect to be aspects
of a single, real god - the god of Evolution. Consider the Old
Testament shared by Judaism/Christianity/Islam. It says that God
created all life, and indeed evolution did. It told Abraham that if he
followed God's laws that his offspring would be as numerous as the
grains of sand... natural selection was fulfilled. For evolution is
the god of life and of death, the god of judgments, the god of famine
and plague and war. Evolution is the god of laws, and as he has
created societies just as he has created cells and living beings.
Consider specifically the points of the Old Testament in terms of its
viability as a self-replicating system: A VIRUS. Women were to be
treated as chattel, kept married to some man, kept PREGNANT. Never
mind the reasons, the point is that they WERE pregnant and were
producing new offspring constantly ... helping to insure that THAT
religion and no other would be believed by those who came after. The
men were all expected/required to go out and make war, doing their part
to insure the system lived on. Homosexuals were killed to frighten
people into reproduction. Any who did not believe the religion, the
women and children of the enemy, the blasphemer at home, were killed.
The reason why Judaism/Christianity/Islam are believed now, is that
these beliefs propagated themselves in this manner. In Christianity
and Islam the element of forced conversion of belief is also added.
You ask why the fundies are so intolerant... because religions that
were tolerant of others were wiped out! How can the peaceful outfight
those who devote all energy to war?

Perhaps Krsna is different... Perhaps Hinduism has succeeded for
some other reason; perhaps it is not just another excuse for war and
reproduction. But I have read over the database to some extent at
least, and despite an indignant denial I see some points of correlation
to the fundies you love to hate. On the good side, just like them, you
say that you find a true peace in obeying God's will. You have a
tradition stretching back thousands of years and holy books that say
that your religion is right. And on the bad side I have seen quotes
about how people can be doomed, to endlessly regress through lower
species of life, to go to hells, to be JUDGED (and what else is
evolution all about, but judgement of who will die and who will live on
forever?) You talk about people as if they can be dead inside, and
different from you... US and THEM, the same as so many others, the same
way that people can bomb Iraq???

You I'm sure will say that you are different from your enemies,
because they attack you and you do not attack them. That is true. But
is this evidence in favor of your faith, IF it is based only on holy
books and laws... or is it evidence that there is some other standard
of morality, a truer one, which people can find in their hearts and
follow because it is intrinsically right?

If I were a fundie, I could go out and eat my meat all the time,
and have faith in God and the Bible, and know I was going to heaven and
the Krsnas were going to Hell. If I were a Krsna, I could go out and
do (well, I'm not quite sure what Krsna allows that fundies don't, but
something) and know I would go to live someday on Krsnaloka, and that
the meat-eating fundies would be doomed to become insects, bacteria,
worse and worse. In both cases I would have faith. In both cases I
would help my ideas to spread. ~ I would not be talking to you if I
were not open to correction. The mere fact that you have chosen to
believe the way you do is proof-positive that part of what you believe
is right. Even a virus must in some way mimic something the host cell
really needs, and in nature the boundary between virus and symbiote,
poison and nutrient, life and death, blurs to the point where one can
realize that anything is possible.

From:    Vaishnava Dasa
Subject: Re: Evolution

> aspects of a single, real god - the god of Evolution.  Consider the
> Old Testament shared by Judaism/Christianity/Islam.  It says that God
> created all life, and indeed evolution did.

There is no god of Evolution, but a theory of evolution, or evolution
theory.  Evolution theory suggests that life begins with chemical
combination.  However, there has been no empirical evidence to produce
life, at any elementary or advanced stage, simply by combining
chemicals in the laboratory.  It can't be said that evolution created
life.  We see life coming from life, not life coming from chemicals.
We see that you had a father, and he had a father and so on and so on
back through history, until you get to God, the cause of all causes.
So we say the original cause for everything is God and don't accept the
theory of life arising from chemical combination at any stage.

> frighten people into reproduction.  Any who did not believe the
> religion, the women and children of the enemy, the blasphemer at home,
> were killed.

This was popular during the "dark ages" where religious intolerance was
popular.

> Christianity and Islam the element of forced conversion of belief is
> also added. You ask why the fundies are so intolerant... because
> religions that were tolerant of others were wiped out!

In the case of the Vedic followers, they were tolerant of others, yet
they still remain today.  For example, prior to Christ, Buddha appeared
in India and afterwards, there was no movement to drive Buddhists out
of India, or make them convert.  After that, Moslems invaded India,
still there was no movement to oust the Moslems.  Christians have also
come into India and no ouster was done.  In recent years, the trouble
between Hindus and Moslems arose because of political reasons, the
Moslim leader swore to give India its bloodiest war in history if the
Moslems did not get their own separate state.  Therefore, the
partitioning of India into Pakistan and Hindustan was done.  Otherwise
religion does not always mean intolerance of other religions.

> How can the
> peaceful outfight those who devote all energy to war?

Being peaceful and loving peace does not mean that one ignores
preparations for fighting.  Keeping peace means that one must fight as
a last resort, when necessary.  Just like Krishna - He had to teach
this lesson to His friend, Arjuna, and that is the whole subject matter
of the famous Bhagavad-gita that is praised by scholars and great
thinkers today, 5,000 years after it's writing.  Arjuna was a religious
man and a lover of peace, yet, he was convinced that waging war against
an agressor was his religious duty.  It is not that a person becomes
religious and then never lifts a finger to stop the evil and demoniac
elements in society.  That is not religious, that is cowardace.

>      Perhaps Krsna is different... Perhaps Hinduism has succeeded for
> some other reason; perhaps it is not just another excuse for war and
> reproduction.  But I have read over the database to some extent at
> least, and despite an indignant denial I see some points of
> correlation to the fundies you love to hate.

Fundamentalism has come to mean intolerance of other's religion,
blindly following dogma, armchair speculative religion, and
interpreting scripture to suit ones mental speculations.  The Vedic
philosophy is based on knowledge.  We don't go by designations like
"Hindu," "Christian," "Buddhist," "Atheist," "American," "Iraqi," or
any other designation pertaining to the body.  Therefore, there is no
question of intolerance against others.

> And on the bad side I have seen
> quotes about how people can be doomed, to endlessly regress through
> lower species of life, to go to hells, to be JUDGED (and what else is
> evolution all about, but judgement of who will die and who will live
> on forever?) You talk about people as if they can be dead inside, and
> different from you... US and THEM, the same as so many others, the
> same way that people can bomb Iraq???

There must be an "us and them" mentality - a divine and a demoniac
mentality.  This is called "discrimination."  "Discrimination is the
better part of valor."  Everyone must discriminate.  Our court system
discriminates between citizen and criminal, as well as God
discriminates between divine and demoniac qualities.  There is nothing
wrong with discrimination provided that it is done lawfully.

> But is this evidence in favor of your faith, IF it is based only on
> holy books and laws... or is it evidence that there is some other
> standard of morality, a truer one, which people can find in their
> hearts and follow because it is intrinsically right?

The holy books and laws lead to Krishna, who is situated in ones one
heart, so the process is not an artificial imposition on the mind of
anyone.  Right now, everyone has forgotten Krishna, the Supreme
Personality of Godhead, and by thinking of Him, talking about Him,
etc., just like an amnesiac, one can begin to remember one's
relationship with Him by this process.  Love of God is deep down within
the hearts of everyone, just as fire is contained in an unlit match.
All it needs is to be ignited by the process of hearing about God from
authorized sources, then the deep-down love of God will become fact,
not imagination.