To : Charlie Ray Subj: Evolution Charlie Ray, who thinks tribology is slick, said to: Matt

From: Marty Leipzig 17 Jul 94 15:12 To : Charlie Ray Subj: Evolution Charlie Ray, who thinks tribology is slick, said to: Matt Giwer CR> This list is all interpretative information regarding supposedly CR> transitional FOSSILS. You made the claim that evolution was going on CR> in the contemporary animal world where species have recently CR> transformed into other species. Let's see it, Matt. Otherwise, I must CR> assume that you are attempting to misdirect your response. Well, if Matt doesn't, I will. Viz: In the genus _Tragopogon_ (a plant genus consisting mostly of diploids), two new species (_T. mirus_ and _T. miscellus_) have evolved. This occurred within the past 50-60 years. The new species are allopolyploid descendants of two separate diploid parent species. Here is how the speciation occurred. The new species were formed when one diploid species fertilized a different diploid species and produced a tetraploid offspring. This tetraploid offspring could not fertilize or be fertilized by either of it's two parent species types. It is reproductively isolated, the definition of a species. Two other plant species have also arisen within the past 110 years in this manner, _Senecio cambrensis_ and _Spartina townsendii_. Here's the ref: Ashton and Abbot, 1992, Multiple origins and genetic diversity in the newly arisen allopolyploid species _Senicio cambrensis_ Rosser (Compositae), Heredity 68:25 Further, here is a short list of referenced speciation events. I picked four relatively well-known examples, from about a dozen that I had documented in materials that I have around my home. These are all common knowledge, and by no means do they encompass all or most of the available examples. Example one: A strain of _Drosophilia paulistorum_ developed hybrid sterility after being isolated in the lab for only a couple of years. (Test for speciation: offspring are not fertile, like horse vs. donkey.) Dobzhansky, Th., and Pavlovsky, O.,1971. An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophilia, _Nature_ 23:289-292. Example two: Evidence that a species of fireweed formed by doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock. (Test for speciation: cannot produce offspring with the original stock.) Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in _Epilobium angustifolium_ (Onaagraceae)", _Evolution_ 21:713-719 Example three: Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature to the island. (Test for speciation in this case is based on morphology. It is unlikely that forced breeding experiments have been performed with the parent stock.) Stanley, S., 1979. _Macroevolution: Pattern and Process_, San Francisco, W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41 Example four: Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which formed since they were isolated less than 4000 years ago from the parent stock, Lake Nagubago. (Test for speciation in this case is by morphology and lack of natural interbreeding. These fish have complex mating rituals and different coloration. While it might be possible that different species are inter-fertile, they cannot be convinced to mate.) Mayr, E., 1970. _Populations, Species, and Evolution_, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348 And if that's not enough... An article on page 22 of the February, 1989 issue of Scientific American. It's called "A Breed Apart." It tells about studies conducted on a fruit fly, _Rhagoletis pomonella_, that is a parasite of the hawthorn tree and its fruit, which is commonly called the thorn apple. About 150 years ago, some of these flies began infesting apple trees, as well. The flies feed an breed on either apples or thorn apples, but not both. There's enough evidence to convince the scientific investigators that they're witnessing speciation in action. Note that some of the investigators set out to prove that speciation was not happening; the evidence convinced them otherwise. Just a smattering of a HUGE database of articles: (1991 only) 1) Bullini, L and Nascetti, G, 1991, Speciation by Hybridization in phasmids and other insects, Canadian Journal of Zoology, Volume 68(8), pages 1747-1760. 2) Ramadevon, S and Deaken, M.A.B., 1991, The Gibbons speciation mechanism, Journal of Theoretical Biology, Volume 145(4) pages 447-456. 3) Sharman, G.B., Close, R.L, Maynes, G.M., 1991, Chromosome evolution, phylogony, and speciation of rock wallabies, Australian Journal of Zoology, Volume 37(2-4), pages 351-363. 4) Werth, C. R., and Windham, M.D., 1991, A model for divergent, allopatric, speciation of polyploid pteridophytes resulting from silencing of duplicate-gene expression, AM-Natural, Volume 137(4):515-526. 5) Spooner, D.M., Sytsma, K.J., Smith, J., A Molecular reexamination of diploid hybrid speciation of Solanum-raphanifolum, Evolution, Volume 45, Number 3, pages 757-764. 6) Arnold, M.L., Buckner, C.M., Robinson, J.J., 1991, Pollen-mediated introgression and hybrid speciation in Louisana Irises, P-NAS-US, Volume 88, Number 4, pages 1398-1402. 7) Nevo, E., 1991, Evolutionary Theory and process of active speciation and adaptive radiation in subterranean mole rats, spalax-ehrenbergi superspecies, in Isreal, Evolutionary Biology, Volume 25, pages 1-125. CR> Moreover, this list you give is old news and really doesn't prove CR> beyond all doubt that these are transitional forms, though admittedly CR> some do seem to be so. The point is that you claimed that this process CR> is happening today and that you could provide proof. Let's see it. There it is, Charlie. Now, care to humbly admit publicly that you are wrong? CR> Sincerely yours in Christ, Sincerely yours in Science, CR> Rev. Charlie Ray The Explicitly Reverend Dr. Martin R. Leipzig, BS, MS, PhD, FCISGS *.. Creationism is nothing more than a Gish wish. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 # BGQWK 1.0#38 #43