[ref001]
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/6/96
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/6/96
[04:14] Shroud (yabba-dab@max2-so-ca-49.earthlink.net)
joined #apologetics.
[04:14] hullo
[04:14] hi shroud!!
[04:14] cheers
[04:14] DaJester (dwhunter@ainet.com) joined #apologetics.
[04:14] is aplobot a bible bot?
[04:14] hello.
[04:15] Action: Achimoth finally notices shrouds, Flintstones
reference
[04:15] shroud now you seem to attribute lots
of cruelty and other attrocities to xianity. whatis
the problem that that?
[04:15] with that even
[04:15] gennie yes
[04:15] that that? please re-ask
[04:15] grin
[04:15] ok
[04:15] acolyte are you a bible thumper?
[04:15] gennie no
[04:16] not to be taken offensively if answeris
yes.
[04:16] gennie do I look like one?
[04:16] ok
[04:16] thump thump thump
[04:16] i dont know i cant see you
[04:16] Gennie: Yes
[04:16] laugh
[04:16] If atheists went around slaughtering
people like theists tend to do, you would have no problem
accusing them of a weakness due to a lack of belief
in god
[04:16] shroud, can I ask yous omething?
[04:16] Action: BullFrog` whacks Gennie with his twenty
pound Bible.
[04:16] ouch
[04:16] shroud: actually atheists have.. see
Russian revolution
[04:16] indeed, you blame atheists for that
anyway, when we are free from that history. Yes, ask
me anything
[04:16] Action: Gennie bursts into flames
[04:16] shroud are marxists Atheists?
[04:16] chuckle
[04:17] Shroud yes or no will suffice
[04:17] I do not say atheists are free from
the petty rivalries, and yes, they have killed, but
their history is that of victim - victim of *your*
beliefs
[04:17] what is a marxist
[04:17] shroud was Stalin a victim?
[04:17] shroud: oh really?
[04:17] HiBrow (chipper@chipper.ihug.co.nz) joined
#Apologetics.
[04:17] hi
[04:17] hi hibrow
[04:17] hullo hibrow
[04:17] afk for a sec
[04:18] Action: Achimoth thinks of many people in powerful
positions in history that were not christian nor were
they theists of any kind
[04:18] Marxist: someone who believs in the
ideals of Carl Marx
[04:18] but if someone could briefly explain
marxism to me, i would like that
[04:18] evenin' all. Just having a quick look
around.
[04:18] shroud were the Bolshiveiks victims?
[04:18] what is the point of this? Do you want
me to list all the atrocities in your history? Stalin
was an asshole. So was Hitler. hitler believed he
was on a mission from God. Stalin was a mental defective
[04:18] thats Karl Marx
[04:18] dajes: who is carl marx/
[04:18] Hitler was a theosphist disciple
[04:18] Marx believed that the ideal society
would not need religion
[04:18] shround 1. Hitler was an Occultist.
2 Stalin was an Atheist
[04:18] Action: BullFrog` wonders if atheists believe
Adolf Hitler was a Christian .... after all He was
one bad dude.
[04:19] theosophist even
[04:19] bullfrog he was in Theosphy
[04:19] how about we list the *psychological*
damage your christianity has foisted on humanity -
millions and millions of people for 2000 years
[04:19] Helena Blavatsky
[04:19] Quote from Spike Milligan: "Communism
is great, but to make it work, all the people under
it's power must become like jelly."
[04:19] shroud lets say you do. SO WHAT?
[04:19] Carl Marx created the frame work for
comunism
[04:19] shroud why is it wrong to do that to
ppl?
[04:19] oh now its psychological damage..
:)
[04:19] communism in a pure form isnt a bad
idea
[04:19] :O
[04:19] shroud on what possible ethical basis
are youappealing to?
[04:19] So, this is why I fear your theistic
beliefs. It is time to grow up and leave the supernatural
tales of old men and priests who were trying to control
wild tribes
[04:20] "religion is the opiate of the masses."-Marx
[04:20] Wasn't that Mao?
[04:20] shroud I askeda question, could you
answer if for me, if not I will understand that youc
annot defend yor position
[04:20] shroud why is it wrong to do that to
ppl?
[04:20] hibrow: marx was da orginal
[04:20] Mao was marxist
[04:20] OK, point taken.
[04:20] And if everybody was good, and behaved
on their own, we wouldn't need to scare them with tales
of eternal damnation
[04:20] jako (jak@204.50.229.169) joined #Apologetics.
[04:21] Acolyte, rephrase your question - i
am being hit on all sides here. Is WHAT wrong to...etc
[04:21] Gennie: let me ask you some basic
questions ..... What od you believe most people believe
about satan .... would they say Satan is ugly ... or
would they say He is a beautifull shinning angel?
[04:21] dajester or Law, guess the LAw is a
myth too eh?
[04:21] dajester spiritual enlightenment shouldnt
be based on fear
[04:21] That may be so, but the fact is that
nobody is totally good!
[04:21] a beautiful shining angl
[04:21] shroud whyis it wrong to do anything
that you accuse xianity of doing?
[04:21] bull: what MOST people believe? they
have been brought to believe that he rules hell in
where you will go if you 'sin'
[04:22] Basic ethical morals or right or wrong.
Golden Rule, if you will (not original with bible,
BTW)
[04:22] Gennie: YOu are right, it shouldn't,
but it often is
[04:22] Gennie: Is he ugly?
[04:22] HiBrow (chipper@chipper.ihug.co.nz) left #Apologetics.
[04:22] dajester ok.. we are in agreement
[04:22] shroud, which onception of ethics?
there are literally millions of them, which one?
[04:22] bull: i dunno.. physically?
[04:22] bull: i always pictured 'him' like an
italian
[04:23] bull: in good shape. for a guy his age..
[04:23] shroud which view of ethics? there
are somany
[04:23] bull: but.. i dunno..
[04:23] 2Cor11:14 And no marvel; for Satan
himself is transformed into an angel of light. (KJV)
[04:23] Acolyte - look, I am not interested
in playing this game. We are all aware of simplistic
things - if you hit a person with a club, then you
can be expected to get hit back. I am not interested
in ultimate source or ultimate star
ts or ultimate big bangs or logic etc. I am interested
in educating people out of their ancient, dangerous
superstitious beliefs.
[04:23] Gennie: the only point I'm making
is that the best lie is one that clocks itself in the
truth
[04:23] Gennie: I have my own idea of what
a true christian would be like, but I don't think I
have met a person yet who fits that
[04:23] cloaks
[04:24] I know what apologetics is - I've been
here b4. I only came here because you asked me too
[04:24] shroud that is only the case if there
are morals. I don't think your paradigm can support
a belief in ethics at all
[04:24] dajes: me neither..
[04:24] i am not a christian.
[04:24] bullfrog: or in other words, honey
is better than vinegar..
[04:24] Ac - what is your point
[04:24] bull; i didnt get your point, im sorry.
[04:25] Gennie: the point is that the best
lie sounds awfully good
[04:25] shroud, how do you get ethics from
states of Nature? Should bears feel guilty for killing
other animals? Killing is natural,so is rape etc etc
[04:25] Gennie: Did you used to go to church?
[04:25] shroud all the things youdetest are
perfectly natural things, why do you have a problem
with them?
[04:25] shroud: if beginning dont matter then
how did we get here?
[04:25] Gennie: and that the most evil people
would pretend to be Christians ....
[04:25] daj: yeah.. went to a private lutheran
school. was some of the worst years of my life.. i
am highly spiritual.. but in 'god'? i dont know..
[04:25] Gennie: because it is the most effective
way to destroy people
[04:26] We are not animals. We have an intelligence
and a consciousness. We have instincts and early reptilian
brains. you theisms excite the fear of death we all
naturally have, and that is why there is 90% of you,
and 2% of me.
[04:26] nod bull.. but i thought you were a
christian
[04:26] shroud religion, fear, killing, anger,
violence, are all natural, Why do you have a problem?
[04:26] sroud we are animals but more sophisticated
is all.
[04:26] Gennie: Spiritual how?
[04:26] Gennie: the point is that a Christian
is one that follows the teachings of Jeus Christ
[04:26] shroud: shroud make accusations but
back it up with little actual logic
[04:26] dajester.. i dont know laugh.. im agnostic..
i dont have proof that there is a god.. but i like
to think that there is something.. i just dont know
what
[04:26] Gennie: the very one that said that
to hate your brother without a cause was eqivalent
to murder
[04:26] shroud, if we are not an animla is
there anything that is not physical in us?
[04:27] Alcolyte: But Jesus asks us to be
nice, not be animals
[04:27] I have a problem when a man jumps into
a bus and blows up innocent people becuz his gods tell
him so. All theistic beliefs are tainted thus. If
you guys would pray to yourselves like your gods command
you, the world would be a l
ot nicer
[04:27] Shroud, consciousness is merely chemical
reactions in the brain. All your ideas are mere chemical
reactions
[04:27] dejester he does? so
[04:27] Bullfrog! A christian is actually one
who accept Christ as his savior!
[04:27] shroud ok, but nature disposes us to
be mean, what s the problem?
[04:27] jako: that is part of following Christ
[04:27] man is a naturally violent being...
[04:28] shroud you are accusing but you have
not justified the ethical basis from which you are
coming fron. please do so
[04:28] Alcolyte: Are you not a christian?
[04:28] shroud whyis violence wrong if nature
dispsoes us to it?
[04:28] jako: from what i understand there is
more than just accepting christ involved with christianity
[04:28] You know what, Acolyte, you may live
in this strange little world all you like. Life is
a one-time shot with no second chance and no afterlife.
It is so evident that these so-called "chemical reactions
in the b
rain have evolved us ethically so far away and above
the petty interests of the bible, it's not even funny
[04:28] dajester yes I am, but he cannot acuse
us of ethical wrongs if he has no ethical system now
can he? Not consistently anyhow
[04:28] Gennie: Yes ..... following Him too
.....
[04:28] Lavender (nowhere@max1-800-34.earthlink.net)
left irc: Read error to Lavender[max1-800-34.earthlink.net]:
Connection reset by peer
[04:28] The only reson anything is "wrong" is
when it is harmfull to society
[04:29] jako: I iagree
[04:29] shroud ok, so how do you know that
is right tho if the chemcials forces youto think that
way?
[04:29] dejester, how do you know society is
to be valued as a consequence tho?
[04:29] dajester begs the question
[04:30] Who wants to play your "logic" games?
your history is what it is. It is so because of the
beliefs of your so-called gods. Let's say it is "inconsistent".
So what? It's better than your petty murder and endless
psychological blackmail
[04:30] can we not accept that believing in
something no matter what it is is a faith, and if it
makes someone feel better, then, hell.. let em think
what they want
[04:30] Alcolyte: THere is this thing called
society, and it helps us to live
[04:30] dejester if I value X, then everythng
that harms X is evil and everything that benefits X
is good, fine. I agree, but why is X to be valued AT
ALL?? that is what I shish to know
[04:30] shroud: what do you believe.
[04:30] i came in late
[04:30] Gennie - atheist.
[04:30] shroud you sound very bitter
[04:30] shroud ok :)
[04:30] Gennie - an atheist who lurks in bible
and listens to endless divisiveness based on the ramblings
of a superstition
[04:31] shroud please, how do you know that
there are ethics at all? since all your concepts are
determined by nature?
[04:31] shroud why are you so angry at nature
for making us what we are?
[04:31] Acolyte - I am angry. I see too many
people die at the hands of fools who claim an old book
to be some kind of divine word - and the wars are endless
[04:31] dejester if I value X, then everythng
that harms X is evil and everything that benefits X
is good, fine. I agree, but why is X to be valued AT
ALL?? that is what I shish to know
[04:31] Socity is to be valuse because it
helps us live longer fuller lives
[04:31] Shroud: I would recommend finding
a silent place ... to read the Psalmns ....
[04:31] dajester circular argument, why value
long life?
[04:32] shroud I see many ppl die for selfishness,
so what? it is perfectly natural
[04:32] We value life because It is a basic
instinct!
[04:32] I am angry today. I feel empathy and
sympathy for those people. they are dead. Gone.
good-bye forever. Who's fault is it? Atheists? Hell,
no. We laugh at your endless appeals to gods
[04:32] dajester why value X at all? Youjust
moved the problem one more step is all
[04:32] the main thing i disagree with 'christian'
or mainstream religion is all the guilt inflicted..
thats really lame
[04:32] psychologically messes people up
[04:32] Gennie: that is true
[04:32] shroud why did the Sadinistas kill
tens of thousands of ppl? God? No. Humanisitc ideaology.
[04:32] We have the will for self-preservation,
that's what makes us alive!
[04:33] dajester how do you know that waht
you do instictively is what you out to do?
[04:33] shroud sounds like he just lashing
out at everybody....
[04:33] Gennie: it is really lame ... especially
when Jesus paid the price for our sins
[04:33] dajester males instictively rape too
[04:33] It is not natural. It is for an unnatural
reason - the belif in the supernatural. Look, we have
enough reasons to kill one another, and we are slowly
getting over them. Racism isconsidered stupid and
foolish, and so on. the on
e thing we can't seem to overcome is theism, because
it is so horrifically ingrained in us at birth.
[04:34] Don't pin rape on a particular sex
[04:34] shroud you have given no ethical bassi
for you allagations I guess you have none. sorry to
hear that
[04:34] dajester ok humans instictively rape,
kill etc etc
[04:34] racism and prejudice is being overcome????????????/
[04:34] bullfrog its all faith... i dont believe
all that anyway.. i like the bible.. i think its a
great book, but i dont worship the bible or anything
for that matter
[04:34] in which part of the world?
[04:34] dajester how do you know whatis natural
is what you ought to do?
[04:34] As animals, we have the will to have
sex, we have the will to survive, and we have the will
to eat, and the will to have many other pleasures
[04:34] Acolyte - when the history of atheism
matches the history of theism INCLUDING THE PSYCHOLOGICAL
RAPE, then you can point to atheistic ideologys gone
wrong
[04:34] shroud how do you iknow what you are
determined to think is true?
[04:35] shroud 200+ million in 150 yrs=ATHEISM
[04:35] And everything can be traced back
to those basic wants
[04:35] shroud more than all the religious
wars COMBINED
[04:35] shroud: accuse theists of things that
cannot be substantiated
[04:35] dajester ok how doyou know those wants
are true?
[04:35] Shroud: Do you feel psychologically
raped ...?
[04:35] shroud, why is killing wrong?
[04:35] Shroud: seriouslt ....
[04:36] bullfrog prolly a formwer fundy
[04:36] True? Explain what you mean be true?
[04:36] bullfrog, prolly a former fundy, I
have seen it a mill times
[04:36] by true
[04:36] Aco - you asre determined to pull me
into this logic game, aren't you. No. I won't do
it. I know the truth, and that's that. and who am
I lashing out at? Theists? YOU have made the world
thus. Stop bickering over your petty
little gods and start living decent lives. Worry
about the here and now. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize
in the afterlife
[04:36] Action: DaJester gives Gennie a whole bouquet
of roses
[04:36] Shroud: maybe you have been :(
[04:36] Action: DaJester gives jako a whole bouquet
of roses
[04:36] Action: DaJester gives Shroud a whole bouquet
of roses
[04:36] shroud: you accuse but offer no proof
[04:36] dajester, well I can be determined
by nature to thin 2+2 is 10, but is it? No.
[04:36] hey thanks dajester
[04:36] thanx Da. Back attya.
[04:37] Shroud: Jesus heals people that have
been pshchologically raped.
[04:37] Everyone loves Flowers!!!
[04:37] Action: DaJester gives BullFrog` a whole bouquet
of roses
[04:37] Action: DaJester gives anselm a whole bouquet
of roses
[04:37] Action: DaJester gives Achimoth a whole bouquet
of roses
[04:37] Action: DaJester gives Acolyte a whole bouquet
of roses
[04:37] Yes, I was raised as a theist. Of course
I feel raped. Do you think you can be raised threatened
with eternal hell and not carry it with you asll your
life.
[04:37] bullfrog: jesus is dead. he's been dead
for a long long time.
[04:37] shroud if you are not gonna justify
your clames please leave then
[04:37] shroud I was never threatened with
hell grwoing up. My father was an Atheist
[04:37] Since when does nature do math??
[04:37] dajester the point
[04:38] Jesus is alive
[04:38] dajester the point is, if you are determined,
how do you know what you think is true?
[04:38] no.. he really is dead.
[04:38] dajester accurate?
[04:38] gennie how do youknow that?
[04:38] gennie: He is Risen.. I've seen him/
[04:38] Gennie:are you any less guilty of
psychological rape then you claim Christains are ...
Jesus Christ is precious to me ... my only hope ...
why are you pshychologically raping me :(
[04:38] shroud we are only interested in ppl
who are willing to discuss and justify their claims
not spout their rhetoric
[04:38] Great, Acolyte. you invite me here
and then kick me out. what a wonderful person you
must be. And you weren't asked if you felt psychologically
raped, I was. I don't care that your father was an
atheist. I only care that this
world is in a sorry state thanx to theism.
[04:39] because his body if it were alive would
have decayed while he was still living.. he was born
almost 2000 years ago. human life span is 80 years
[04:39] shroud and then you will be dead. so
what?
[04:39] shroud: no matter hw many times you
scream an accusation without logic or proof you are
just pshing air with your mouth
[04:39] shroud if you cannot justify your claims
rationally,leave. What kind of perosn merely complains
but offers not rational support?
[04:39] Alcolyte: Nobody can really know anything
is true, because it all comes down to what we percieve,
but that is getting into philosophy, and it's all very
silly
[04:39] bull: im not telling you not to believe
in what you want.. im just saying life span for humans
ends on an average of 80 years..
[04:39] Jesus is Risen.....
[04:39] Gennie: do you wnat to get even that
badly?
[04:39] ach how did you see him..
[04:40] did he buy you a shiney new car?
[04:40] Action: DaJester offers free hugs to anyone
who wants one
[04:40] bull: get even? not at all..
[04:40] dajester I am a philosopher, and no
it is not silly. Bit on a naturlalistic basis, knowldge
and ethics are not possible, THATis the problem
[04:40] gennie: would you believe a vision?
(probably not, butits true)
[04:40] Gennie: It is true ..... if Jesus
Christ is not risen my faith is in vain ...
[04:40] dajester only Theism offers Epistemology
and Ethics
[04:40] im not trying to get even.. just stating
a fact.. that if i were born 2000 years ago i would
be dead.
[04:40] ach that is not physically alive.
[04:40] Gennie: mircales are fact also
[04:40] gennie, ok that aplies for you, how
do you know it applies to Jesus?
[04:40] Gennie: his body isnt mortal flesh
anymore
[04:41] you guys invited me here, did you not?
I didn't want to come into this room in the 1st place,
due to knowing it was not the right room. Now you
ask me to leave because I reject you demand for "rational
justific
ation". OK -
[04:41] ooooooooooohhhhh
[04:41] archimoth Immortal flesh
[04:41] ok so a DIFFERENT meaning of ALIVE
[04:41] shroud yup
[04:41] i meant he's not walking the earth as
jesus
[04:41] Gennie: Your sould will continue
forever ......
[04:41] gennie no he is alive, like you, but
he won't die again
[04:41] no ac
[04:41] no no no
[04:41] he's not alive like me.
[04:41] gennie: not at the moment no
[04:41] gennie how do you know?
[04:41] Evidence of scientific reality. No
evidence of god or gods - same proof of god Jehovah
as there is for Zeus. Now you'll ask me how do I "know"
what I know? Stupid and pointless.
[04:42] Alcolyte: depending on how you define
"ethics" then you could be right, but we can still have
values and rules and laws without the existence of
a higher power
[04:42] because he died a long long time ago
[04:42] but he is Jesus and he is living
[04:42] if you want to say his spirit lives,
ok..
[04:42]
