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[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/20/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/20/96 {NOTICE: The *Alcuin* in this log is NOT, repeat NOT, the Alcuin who is a regular op on this channel. Please take this into consideration as you proceed.} [22:22] Milhous (hlm3mr@199.218.197.247) joined #apologetics. [22:29] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) joined #apologetics. [22:29] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) left #apologetics. [22:30] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) joined #apologetics. [22:30] What is an apologetic? [22:31] Whoa./ [22:31] Hey, Alcuin. [22:31] Wait...let me explain. [22:32] I am not the apologetic Alcuin. I am a different one that a ProfG came to me and said that I wasn't the right alcuin...that there was another alcuin...that he was on apologetics...so...my original question? [22:32] What is an apologetic? [22:33] Oh. [22:34] An apologetic is one who defends the Christian faith via reason. [22:34] Ah. [22:34] Hmm. [22:34] Now, let me ask a question... [22:34] But, Isn't Christianity based on faith without reason? [22:34] What is an Alcuin? [22:34] Alcuin was Charlemange's teacher. [22:34] of York I think. [22:35] Ah. ---------------------------------------------------------- [22:54] Recon (jwalsh@cs2-10.str.ptd.net) joined #apologetics. [22:55] Hi, Recon. [22:55] hi Milhous.. whats up? [22:55] Hello Recon...are you an apologetic or a nonbeliever...or what? [22:55] Alcuin: Fundamentalists there who believe the Bible is literally true, all parts. [22:55] Alcuin Not all, but a few.. [22:55] apologetic... [22:55] Fundamentalism is wrong... [22:56] So...Recon...why is atheism not logical? [22:57] Why would an atheist suppose that logic should be the standard his beliefs are judged by? [22:57] Interesting...but explain further... [22:57] gotta run soon.. get up early tomorrow.. [22:57] In an atheist's world-view [22:58] The universe is a random collection of events.. [22:58] The concept of a universal logic... [22:58] But isn't Apologeticism trying to make Christianity logical? [22:58] I don't. In my world view, things do not have to have a reason to exist or occur. Therefore, logic doesn't apply. [22:59] requires God. God is rational and the standard by which logic holds true... [22:59] Logic and science ends where God (not necessarily religion) begins. [22:59] God made logic. [22:59] Man made logic. [22:59] Alcuin : no, Apologetics is showing that logic and reason exist because God exists [22:59] ...if he exists. [22:59] God made logic [23:00] Milhous : so logic is not universal? [23:00] However, God set up the standards by which logic was discovered/invented. [23:00] Recon: No. How could it be? The entire universe is apparently not conscious. [23:00] Milhous: Is there 'absolute truth'? [23:00] Recon: No. [23:00] Milhous : Are you absolutely sure? [23:01] You want to know something, guys???? [23:01] Milhous : Im not being coy.. thats a serious question [23:01] what Alcuin? [23:01] Recon: That's a dumb question. [23:01] zoo1 (mjhurst@ppp41.skn.net) joined #apologetics. [23:01] You will never know one way or another...while alive. [23:01] Milhous : why is it dumb? [23:01] To argue with the idea of knowledge is a mistake. [23:01] Recon: Yes. Here's a paradox for you: the one thing that is the truth is that nothing is the truth. [23:01] Milhous: you tell me there is no absolute truth.. I am asking you how you can be sure... [23:02] To argue with a realization of a possibility to be wrong is better... [23:02] Milhous : so how do you KNOW there is no absolute truth.. [23:02] Recon: I can't. And I don't. [23:02] Paradox's don't exist... [23:03] Milhous : then why did you say there is no absolute truth.. do you expect me to believe something even you dont believe to be true? [23:03] A paradox is an area of logic that man has not yet been able to solidify...Fuzzy logic is now explaining that... [23:04] Milhous : so at best, you are stating your opinion that there is no absolute truth [23:04] Recon: Yes. [23:04] OPINIONS ARE ALL THAT WE HAVE! [23:04] Facts do not exist. [23:04] Right, Alcuin. [23:04] Thanks. [23:04] Science could be entirely wrong. [23:04] Alcuin and Milhous : you are both contradicting yourselves.. is it a fact that opinion is all we have? [23:04] It could be entirely right. [23:05] Yes it is. [23:05] That is all...opinion... [23:05] Cant you see the reductu ad absurbem there? [23:05] Recon: And you, sir, are being facetious. [23:05] No. [23:05] There is none. [23:05] Alcuin : it is a fact!, then you contradict yourself. [23:05] No it isn't a fact. [23:06] It's my opinion...obviously...because you persist in attacking it. [23:06] Recon: We are huge, godawful ugly masses of replicating molecules IMHO. [23:06] Im not the one asserting ideas and then saying I have no basis to assert them since its all just opinion anyway [23:06] Recon: You will die deep down knowing that you don't really know. [23:07] Through some Darwinian joke, we got this idea of Truth. My cat doesn't worry about Truth. [23:07] Recon: No latin phrase made to fight logical battles will change that. [23:07] but If I 'Know' anything.. even that I dont 'know' .. then I will know something! [23:07] whitts (jaja@206.186.69.106) joined #apologetics. [23:07] Exactly. [23:07] Ok.. I say.. you guys Know deep inside that God exists and you and him are not on good terms [23:07] Again you are trying to claim "paradox", but there is no such thing... [23:07] We are the Microsoft of organisms....our programs are bloated, huge, and have a lame-brained interface... [23:08] you are the ones claiming paradox! not me.. I am pointing out the inherent paradox in your thinking! [23:08] Recon: I believe truly and deeply in a God...but fact doesn't prove him...I am deeply disturbed about my fate and actions...but logic is not going to argue it away. [23:08] zoo1 (mjhurst@ppp41.skn.net) left #apologetics. [23:09] Recon: The existence of God is not a subject for logic. [23:09] Recon: You are arguing that we have paradox's...but...paradoxes don't exist. [23:09] Exactly, logic is no way to defend God. [23:09] Recon: Falsifiaboloty, all that. [23:09] Recon (jwalsh@cs2-10.str.ptd.net) left irc: gotta jack-out sometime... [23:09] er falsifiability. [23:09] Heh heh. [23:10] Anyway... [23:10] Basic tenet of logic is that a statement must conceivably, somehow, be proven false. [23:10] You can't falsify the statement "There is a God." [23:11] You can't prove it either. [23:11] See? [23:11] whitts (jaja@206.186.69.106) left #apologetics. [23:11] Well, you can't prove ANYTHING....but you can disprove things... [23:12] Exactly! [23:12] I have been telling people that "proof" does not exist for anything. [23:12] Anything that can be disproven somehow is in the realm of logic. [23:12] "proof" is a lie. [23:13] Things like "God exists." or "Love is a many-splendoured thing." can not be broken down logically... [23:13] GIGO [23:14] Remember...the people that argue an existence in God are out of whack...they follow the core scientific/Greek belief that everything in the universe can be explained...yet they also believe in a God...thus...God can be explained a nd to hell with him trying to tell them that he cannot. [23:16] Wouldn't it be sad to die and find ourselves going to Hades to roam with the souls as Zeus rules over us? [23:16] Right....personally, if God wants to make an appearance, I'm all ears. But arguing the existence of God from a purely physical, logical standpoint is kind of dumb. [23:17] Heh...or we all get in this armor and fight in Armageddon... [23:17] Action: Alcuin shudders. [23:17] primetime (tdoane@muselab-gw.runet.edu) joined #apologetics. [23:18] Or to find out...that...only oblivian awais...that...that that's all... [23:18] ...or that the Jews were the only ones to get the chance to go to Heaven... [23:19] ...or that only a specific religion is forever blessed... [23:19] ...while the rest are damned... [23:20] primetime (tdoane@muselab-gw.runet.edu) left #apologetics. [23:31] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) left #apologetics. [23:49] Warfield (Gizmo@slip31.vianet.net.au) joined #apologetics. [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_3_20_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

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