#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/4/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/4/96
[18:51] AKalish (AKalish@www-16-26.gnn.com) joined
[18:51] they give credence to "Reason" but then
poorly use it
[18:51] most of them aren't even that intelligent
[18:52] I'm sorry
[18:52] good evening akalish
[18:52] sorry for what?
[18:52] hello akalish
[18:52] this is the apologetics, right?
[18:52] hi topper
[18:52] how are you all?
[18:52] good, thank you
[18:52] what's the subject?
[18:53] we were talking about the nature
[18:53] yuck, what a nasty place
[18:53] or rthe rthe nature of belief
[18:53] very well, thanks
[18:53] and G.K. Chesterton
[18:53] nto a good subject
[18:53] but one that must be understood for
Christianity to make sense
[18:53] so what is this room about?
[18:54] do you know what apologetics is?
[18:54] first time i have been here-when people
[18:54] btw, hell is not a common subject
[18:54] i thought i did but i guess i dont!!
[18:54] we sort of wondered into it
[18:54] what do you think that it is?
[18:54] no idea
[18:54] btw, I am not a good example of the
[18:54] want the definition?
[18:55] apologetics is the rational defense
[18:55] sounds self depreciating
[18:55] btw, it is not bible bashing
[18:55] what is btw?
[18:55] it is rational discussion\arguing
[18:55] btw -> By The Way
[18:55] irc lingo
[18:56] you get into the habit of using it
in order to save time and typing energy
[18:56] oh. I am ignorant, but I learn!!
[18:56] are you male or f and age, rais...
[18:56] are you a christian, an atheist,
or an agnostic
[18:56] or something else
[18:56] by the way
[18:56] cool huh
[18:56] then you are not ignorant
[18:56] christian basically, but not heavily,
I am female and 37
[18:56] what sort of christianity?
[18:57] what is heavily christian-i didnt realize
weihgt was involved
[18:57] Topper: you mean The weight of Glory?
[18:57] i guess my basic beliefs are born again
[18:57] thank you
[18:57] heavily meaning not reaaaallly into
[18:57] i was just kidding-iam sorry
[18:57] you , rais and topper
[18:58] what denomination
[18:58] I am basically catholic
[18:58] it is difficult to say
[18:58] my kids go to catholic school
[18:58] (tehnically orthodox - it is a long
[18:59] apolo doesn't say much
[18:59] he is a bot
[18:59] where are you guys?
[18:59] I am in NY
[19:00] topper: you are in college AND married?
[19:00] alright rais!! where , near Roch?
[19:00] a little further south
[19:01] LI -> Long Islan
[19:01] and work full time
[19:01] that is why i cant wait to read chesterton
after i graduate
[19:01] okayyyy, my dad grew upin Brooklyn
[19:01] Ak: are you using your husband's\son's
account to get onto the internet?
[19:01] one of our pastors is from brooklyn-do
i fit in now
[19:02] gee, how could you tell, it's hubby!!
[19:02] yes, you always did topper
[19:02] i am very sarcasitc, but dont mean anything
[19:02] me too topper, its a defence mech...
[19:02] I did a whois
[19:03] there are not many women by the name
[19:03] since you seem new to irc, I concluded
that you were borrowing someone's account
[19:03] ho de har, but there is a hubby in
this house named andy
[19:03] presumably a son\husbands
[19:03] what do you believe in?
[19:03] religiously, I mean
[19:04] that God created , and i have changed
my beliefs on alot of the rest
[19:04] what about Jesus?
[19:04] do you believe in the Son of God
[19:04] (I do)
[19:04] yes, from what i remember
[19:04] using the terms metaphorically, of
[19:05] from what you remember?
[19:05] stuff like he's with us all the time,
died for us...
[19:05] im back
[19:05] i do too
[19:05] are you a member of a local church akalish
[19:06] what i have trouble with is why things
are allowed to happen down here
[19:06] is there any particular reason why not?
[19:06] Ak: ah, perhaps I might be able to
help a little
[19:06] like what?
[19:06] if he is supposed to love us then we
should be taken care of
[19:06] Ak: may I recommend a book, first?
[19:07] Ak: The PRoblem of Pain, by C.S.
[19:07] Ak: it is a GOOD book
[19:07] Lewis is a good author
[19:07] he has a great style
[19:07] easy to read
[19:07] almost conversational
[19:07] got it rais, thanks
[19:07] and lewis has no airs about him
[19:07] it is very good
[19:07] but to tell you knwo
[19:07] first: do you believe in free will?
[19:08] (btw, if oyu wish, I can show you
how that is not contradictory to Go dbeing able to
see the future)
[19:08] excellent book
[19:08] go ahead...
[19:08] do you believe that we really can
make choices? that we are not just machinces carrying
out a role that we cannot avoid?
[19:08] which, the problem of pain or the
problem of choice?
[19:09] Fatjac (Fatjac@bass-54.ppp.hooked.net) joined
[19:09] Hi, you'all!
[19:09] aborted babies dont have choices
[19:09] hi fatjac
[19:09] hi fatjac!
[19:09] CTCP SOUND: arethere.wav You there??? from
Fatjac (Fatjac@bass-54.ppp.hooked.net) to #apologetics
[19:09] hey fat
[19:09] Ak: what I mean is that human beings
do have the cpability of choice, essentially that we
are not predetermined to do everything that we do
[19:09] Action: Fatjac says Howdy to raistlinn
[19:09] Action: raistlinn reponds with a large howdy
back to the fat gentleman bearing the appelation "jac"
in the corner
[19:10] Wow! how do you make those long pop-ups
[19:10] sorry, now: which one do you wish
me to explain first, free choice with God knowing the
future, or the problem of pain?
[19:10] Fatjac: after about 5-6 years of
using computers, I can almost touch type
[19:11] Ak: ok
[19:11] I keep wanting to call you raisin!
[19:11] Ak: now, do you believe in free choice,
that is, do you believe that we are not predetermined
to do everything that we do
[19:11] go ahead, if you wish
[19:11] Cassidy_ (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[19:11] Mode change '+o Cassidy_ ' by Wemail@example.com
[19:11] I have plenty of names, that would
be just one more
[19:11] hi cass
[19:12] Now, are you familiar with the doctrine
of the Fall? (we were once perfect (essentially the
garden of eaden stuff) and then we turned away from
God and became imperfect
[19:12] david cassidy is here!!!
[19:14] Since we have free will, and we are
imperfect, then we are going to make bad choices, correct?
[19:14] greetings to everyone!!
[19:14] that is a bad joke
[19:14] what do you mean by bad choices
[19:14] toppper...I must of missed the joke.....
[19:14] Ak: choices that are not out of love
(that is, charity or concern for what is best for others)
[19:14] Action: Fatjac says Howdy to Cassidy_
[19:15] Action: raistlinn notes that there is a lot
of greeting going on on this channel;
[19:15] topper (firstname.lastname@example.org) left #apologetics.
[19:15] topper (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[19:15] bye topper, hi topper
[19:15] that was fast
[19:15] raist...do you mind giving me a topic
name to advertise the channel?
[19:15] Cas: how about; "Apologetics: rational
discussions of Christianity (no bible bashing)"
[19:15] hello, Fat (you dont mind if I call
you fat?) :-)
[19:16] Action: topper says hello all
[19:16] Why should you be any different?
[19:16] then i don't make a lot of bad choices,
what are you gettin at?
[19:16] yes rais
[19:17] who are you talking to fat?
[19:17] Ak: simply this: if we have free
will, and we make bad choices, and we live in a physical
world together, we are bound to harm one another at
[19:17] Topic changed by Cassidy_firstname.lastname@example.org:
Apologetics: Rational discussions of Christianity (No
[19:17] true rais......
[19:18] Ak: If God is going to respect our
free will, how would he prevent it
[19:18] Ak: also. there is another aspect.
[19:18] Ak: you are assuming that all pain\suffering
[19:18] you raise a good point
[19:18] yes. pain and suffering iiisss bad
[19:18] Ak: but have you never heard of the
sports figure who was so dedicated to sports that it
was his life, so much so that he became a real @#$@#
to those around him
[19:19] He uses it
[19:19] your point?
[19:19] Ak: then, he got into an accident
and got paralised. All of a sudden he had to find
a new focus in his life
[19:19] Ak: be patient
[19:19] Ak: he turns it aroun
[19:19] raist:I was just going to say if we
hold to an all good God and see all the pain and suffering
in the world it would seem that God does not see pain
and suffering as bad like we do.
[19:19] Ak: works for charities
[19:19] Ak: starts to love people
[19:20] Right. How can a universe exist in
which we have the inability to act in any way wich
would cause harm or pain...and still maintain "freedom"
by any def.?
[19:20] Ak: there are plenty of examples
that I can offer where you can clearly see that pain
and suffering help people
[19:20] fatjak: because he sees the end product
of what the pain orchestrates
[19:20] Ak: pain is real, it is violent,
and it is all comsuming
[19:20] never helped me onnnnneeee bit!!!
[19:20] Ak: it has a tendency to pull us
away from fake Gods that we set up
[19:20] Ak: how are you so sure?
[19:21] Ak: note: pain and suffering can
also be taken badly by the person in question and go
to bad ends
[19:21] Ak: are you a mother?
[19:21] topper:Kind of like mom, when you got
[19:21] because I feel i am sadder than I would
have been otherwise
[19:21] yes, three kids
[19:22] Ak: that would make it more difficult
for you to see, as being a mother, you would naturally
want nothing to hurt your children
[19:22] Ak: but to borrow an example that
was just mentioned, you have given your children shots,
[19:22] Ak: and made them take mdeicine when
they are sick, correct?
[19:22] Ak: and punished them, in some form,
when they were bad, correct?
[19:23] your point?
[19:23] Ak: you saw the end result of it,
the good that it would accomplish, and figured that
it was a small price to pay for the end result
[19:23] Ak: ayou love your children, correct?
[19:23] (I assume that you do)
[19:23] Cassidy_ (email@example.com)
left irc: Ping timeout for Cassidy_[irv-ca12-04.ix.netcom.com]
[19:23] what do you mean small price to pay?
[19:23] Ak: well, hold on one seconds
[19:23] I eman
[19:24] AK: The immediate pain of the shot compared
to immunity from samll pox.
[19:24] Ak: you love your childrenb very
[19:24] Ak: and yet you do things to them
that causes some suffering (ex: you bring them to the
docotr and send them to school), correct?
[19:24] topper:we can't seem to get an oar in,
[19:24] Cassidy_ (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[19:24] Mode change '+o Cassidy_ ' by Wemail@example.com
[19:24] Fat: you row?
[19:25] IIII can't even get an oar in!!
[19:25] sorry people...my servers doin funky
[19:25] Rais:She ahs to get the point now.
[19:25] Fat: I jsut want ot make sure
[19:25] Ak: you do those things, correct?
[19:25] Action: raistlinn mentions that he rows (sweeps
[19:26] listen, i am feeling battered by you,
i believe i will go... see ya