#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/11/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/11/96
[00:18] BoonDock (simpsonb@UCS.ORST.EDU) joined #apologetics.
[00:19] Cassidy_ (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[00:20] there...Im out of #Bible.
[00:20] I wrote you Email.
[00:20] monster (email@example.com) joined #Apologetics.
[00:20] hi monster
[00:21] Action: BoonDock screams
[00:21] Know Ideal what this room is but caught
[00:21] monster...defence of Christian theism.
[00:22] Action: monster makes a mean snarl and coughs,
hacking up a hairball
[00:22] rooms like this soom to catch the
eyes of people with nicks like yours...I dont know
what it is.
[00:23] Not my real nick, changed it to harrass
people in the KKK room. Don't want them to know my
[00:23] let me guess
[00:23] Action: BoonDock laffs in spanish
[00:23] KKK room....now theres a place to
go for some fun, eh?
[00:24] only if ur in the mood for a lynching,
[00:24] yeah...I bet they can lay iit on as
thick as anyone.
[00:25] Nick change: monster -> Prestonrp
[00:25] Its heartening to know that there
are subcultures of people in this world that society
considers wackier than christians.
[00:26] no offense, many lump them together
[00:26] Not that credibility has any real
virtue when it comes to metaphysics......
[00:26] then they dont understand either :)
[00:26] this is true
[00:27] Prest....none taken. A closer look
will straighten that blunder out in anyone that is
[00:27] Ahhhh what a day.
[00:28] Preston...so (given the name and nature
of this fine channel you find yourself in) what are
your thoughts on God and Christianity?
[00:29] i gotta 1 sec ping...I know the lag
aint me.....SPEAK people!!!!! I feel soooooo alone!!!!
[00:29] Action: BoonDock laffs
[00:29] Wheres W bot to give me ops?
[00:30] I do not general think of God and
Christianity in the same thought. Christianity is
a religion, which is a organization of man's to put
into effect beliefs.
[00:30] Boon is always there....comfort in
my time of trial....
[00:30] Preston...go on.
[00:31] ...and yet it is a system of belief
that is about God if it is about anything...
[00:31] Organized religion in and of itsself
is only a conduit to God and only for some of us.
Religion is not spirituality and it is spirituality
that lead to a personal relationship with God
[00:32] This is true but it is not God's
religion but man. God is nondenominational.
[00:32] My friend, you've given me a great
deal to disagree with!! :-)
[00:33] Preston...to KNOW god is nondenominational
is to know *positive* knowledge about God. The next
question is, how do *you* know this info about God?
[00:33] What is the source?
[00:33] Organized religion, is a set of guidelines
for belief, trying to dictate one belief system and
one way of relationship to God. You can't dictate
nor organize an one on one relationship, it is personal,
it is spiritual
[00:34] Topic changed by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org:
The Home of Rational Theism
[00:35] God is my source, I feel in my soul.
How could God have a religious preference when gave
us so many to choose from
[00:35] Preston...your beliefs about god beg
a number of questions...because they assume so many
commonly believed characteristics ...
[00:35] He didnt give us so many to choose
[00:35] Preston...I can think of many cogent
answers. Want to hear one or two?
[00:36] Many religions, are u kidden. There
[00:36] go ahead, always open to new thoughts
[00:39] Pret...well, one is that He in fact
*didn't* give us any but one. It is plausable that,
in our makeup, there exists a passion to answer the
questions of origins, both of the world and of man.
It is ossible that those origins, co
upled with the one revealed religion, coupled with
the logical necessity of a first cause or designer,
Created all the other religions. In other words, they
were all of natural origin whereas only one was divine.
[00:40] simply put....
[00:40] GARockey (email@example.com) joined
[00:40] hi gar
[00:41] What's the topic?
[00:41] boon is like a box of chocolates...sweet,
nutty, good when frozen, full of carbohydrates, melts
when you heat her....errr...the analogy kinda breaks
down at this point.....
[00:42] Gar...Christianiyt in a pluralistic
[00:42] O.k I follow and disagree. When
I said God gave us many religions I meant we have a
choice of many( christianity being but one). All of
these religions, including christianity were made by
man, not God. God created spiritual
[00:43] Prestonrp -- may I assume, then, that
you reject any concept of divine revelation?
[00:43] Define it for me.
[00:44] The Bible, for example. The concept
that God delivers specific messages to his creation.
[00:45] Prest...but how do you know god intended
just a general *spirituality*? Direct personal revelation
wont cut it. If so, how are you SURE? how is it that
other sincere type people get different ideas? What
about the appearent fact
that culture plays a large role in determining what
people consider personal revelatory knowledge about
the nature of God?
[00:45] I am going to jump off this limb
I climb out on. I really don't believe the Bible was
a direct gift from God.
[00:46] I only used it as an example -- do
you believe that God has not spoken to His creation?
[00:46] culture plays a big role in what
religion feels is appropriate in the relationship to
[00:46] That wasn't my question -- Has God
[00:47] I was answering Cassidy, sorry
[00:47] Prest....thats ok. Honesty is respected
by me. I do disagree and believe there are cogent and
necessary reasons to believe in ONE revelation of hios
character (like the Bible) in order to also believe
in truth, free-will, univer
sals, ethics, the mind, etc.
[00:47] I don't believe the Bible is the
direct word of God,
[00:48] Prestonrp -- but do you believe that
God has spoken, and if so, where?
[00:49] Prest...just adress your answers...we'll
try not to overburden you.
[00:49] I am not saying that there are not
some spiritual truths that can be held by all that
seek a path to God, but religion is still not the only
path to God. MY path will difer from urs, urs from
Boons, Boons from Gar and on and o
[00:50] Has God spoken, no.
[00:51] If God has not spoken, then how may
we know him? After all, he has not revealed himself
if he has not spoken...
[00:51] Or perhaps yes, but not in the absolutes
that people seem to need to find truth. I believe
God speaks daily in our lives, individually and as
a collective whole. Sometimes the messages are subtle,
[00:52] How do we know when it's God, and
[00:52] Everything is God
[00:53] (and when it's) our own desire, or
some lively and convincing speaker?
[00:53] My desire to do evil to my neighbor
[00:53] Cassidy_ (firstname.lastname@example.org)
left irc: Ping timeout for Cassidy_[mvo-ca5-17.ix.netcom.com]
[00:53] BoonDock (simpsonb@UCS.ORST.EDU) left #apologetics.
[00:54] Looks like everyone is leaving!
[00:54] It is an aspect of God. I do not
subscribe to the notion that the negative and positive
aspects of God are separate. They are not in us and
we are created in the image of God(spiritually speaking)
[00:55] Then we are not responsible for our
[00:55] Hope it wasn't sometI didnt' say
[00:55] I mean, I did not say that
[00:55] Cassidy_ (email@example.com)
[00:55] sorry....Im back.
[00:55] But aren't you suggesting that when
you say that "everything is God" ?
[00:56] Hey Cassidy, where'd u go
[00:56] Prest...did you get a chance to answer?
[00:56] answer what Cassidy
[00:56] my server pinged me off.
[00:56] prest...hold on, I'll retype it.
[00:57] Does God exist in a particular way
independant of our beliefs about him...or is He himself
a creation of our mind?
[00:58] Great question Cassidy_
[00:58] Gar...its NOT original...thats for
[00:59] O.k. you know where the bible states
that man is made in the image of God. I believe that
God is made in the image of man. God is constant and
never changing but our perception of God changes constantly
[00:59] But it sure clears up how people think
about God once the answer is given.
[00:59] Prestonrp -- may way conclude from
that that man predates God?
[01:00] Is it not possible that one of the
historical perceptions of this constant and neverchanging
God is close or even right on about who God *actually*
[01:01] Is it even *possible*??
[01:01] no. I am not saying that God does
not exist outside the mind of God. But that the true
nature of God is so complex that we must specify what
God is in our own minds to make sense of everything.
And from time to time this def
inition of God will change with the times even though
the nature of God is stagnant
[01:02] That no is to Gar
[01:02] and that is outside the mind of Man
[01:03] BoonDock (simpsonb@UCS.ORST.EDU) joined #apologetics.
[01:03] welcome back boon
[01:03] If definitions will always change,
then will there every be a "correct" view of God?
[01:03] Prest...can we know any "propositional"
knowledge about God? Even if they be true about what
they assirt but incomplete?
[01:03] cassidy is charismatic and ppl glock
[01:04] re boon!!
[01:04] I see a Hegelian view of God developing
[01:05] boon is TRULY the modern-day campfire.........
[01:05] Gar. Man is not wise enough in his
soul to ever fully know the true meaning of God. God
is complex and vast, encompassing both good and bad
in a balance that is beyond our comprehesion but we
will constantly redefine God is t
he best way that suits us and our times
[01:06] JSG (JSG@www-19-30.gnn.com) joined #Apologetics.
[01:07] I didn't say "fully" know God. I simply
propose that you cannot have potentially opposing views
of God and have both be "right". I suppose a better
ng would be, is it possible to believe something wrong
[01:07] Anyone here?
[01:07] ZenRookie (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[01:07] Prest...I will let you and Gar continue
on your string....but I would very much like to hear
about the origin of this knowledge of God....why his
*complexity* doesn't also negate YOUR knowledge of
Him..and why Christianity speci
fically doesn't speak truely of Him.
[01:09] Cassidy_: Hasn't God revealed Himself to
us through creation and through the Bible?
[01:09] JSG..thats my belief.
[01:09] Guys I'm beat. Its 1 am here and
I got The origin of knowledge is purely my opinions.
That is what all beliefs in God are, in the end.
If Christianity talks true to u and allows u a one
on one with God, than that is ur truth
and is to be respected
[01:10] Cassidy_: I guess I'm confused on the discussion.
[01:10] Unless Christianity is actually right,
and knowledge of God ISN'T based on our opinion...
[01:10] Prestonrp -- blessings in your search,
and good night.
[01:11] Action: BoonDock wonders if she has the wrong
[01:11] JSG...Pres believes certain things
about God and I wanted to know why and from where did
he learn those beliefs.
[01:11] BoonDock (simpsonb@UCS.ORST.EDU) left #apologetics.
[01:11] Christianity is opinion, just real
old opinion. Doesn't make it more or less right than
[01:11] Cassidy_: Thanks for filling me in.
[01:11] Journey (email@example.com) joined
[01:12] That's your opinion... ;)
[01:12] Pres...I wish you could stay. Im positive
I could convince you (if you were willing) that that
is a perposterous position to hold.
[01:12] True. Truth is transitory, based
[01:12] Prestonrp: Why do you think Christianity
is purely opinion? What do you mean? Do you believe
Jesus when he claimed to be God?
[01:13] I wish I could convice my car loan
people of your perception of truth!
[01:13] I don't know, I wasn't walking with
Jesus when he made that claim. Slept in that day
[01:13] Truths shifts everyday. It's like
sand beneath ur feet
[01:14] Prestonrp: I assume you didn't see first-hand
many things that you believe are true. Do you think
Jesus is God?
[01:14] How do you lay a foundation for anything
that you do?
[01:14] Prest....thats an impossible epistemic
position to defend.
[01:14] As for ur car loan, if society suddenly
decided money had no value, the truth would be u would
owe no money
[01:15] Truth is based on perception. What
we held as fact once may not be fact now
[01:15] Prestonrp -- there would also be nothing
making it "my car" anymore, since I didn't "pay" for it.
The difficulty remains.
[01:16] Unother shifting of Truth
[01:16] Prest...then it's not truth.
[01:16] Perception merely perceives truth,
not creates it
[01:16] Let me do some history.
[01:17] ZenRookie (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[01:17] In the early 1900's Black people
were considered inferior many. It was held(Note held)
as truth. It is not our truth today
[01:18] That is what I aurgue, truth shifts
with our perceptions
[01:19] Prest...you're commiting an equivication
falacy. I disagree with your definitions of both truth
[01:19] That didn't make it true then, and
false now. It has always been false - it just takes
time to see. Believing that the world was flat didn't
make that "truth".
[01:19] Prest...but how do you know that what
you perceive is ever true?
[01:20] JSG (JSG@www-19-30.gnn.com) left #Apologetics.
[01:20] Truth is transitory, what I believe
is true today may not be true for me tomorrow, this
is growth it is what we do as humans beings. As we
change, so is what is true for us
[01:21] I would believe all things are true...
from the perspective of the creator of that perception
[01:21] Well, I am out of time... Later everyone!
[01:21] GARockey (email@example.com) left
[01:22] u are the creator, somewhat, of ur
own perceptions. Society, family, friends all have
a say in what u believe is true
[01:22] Cassidy_ (firstname.lastname@example.org)
left irc: Off to sing with the stars!
[08:45] Epesh (email@example.com) joined
[08:45] Wow, there *is* an apologetics channel.
[08:46] u b funny Epesh
[08:46] Vic: one of the ops here also goes to
[08:46] Alcuin is his nick
[08:46] I'll tell Scott.
[08:48] funny? Why so?
[08:50] I dunno, Epesh, just your nature I guess
[08:50] oops, forgot, there can be no such thing
as a "nature" in an atheist paradigm
[08:50] Profg: au contraire! there's little else.
[08:51] how can there be universals in a naturalistic
paradigm where there can only be locals?
[08:51] So is anyone interested in apologetics
[08:52] Action: Epesh is glad to see that this channel
is around, since he lobbied for it - hard - a few months
ago but got no response.
[08:52] I don't think there are only locals.
[08:52] Besides, my paradigm is objective, not
"naturalistic," unless we're having a confusion of terms
[08:53] I know you don't think so, but the question
is *how* they can exist in your paradigm?
[08:53] you "lobbied" for it?
[08:53] ProfG: yes.
[08:53] How can they <- what? - exist in my paradigm?
[08:55] Hey prof, I need to leave...can I get
your email address?
[08:55] Explain the term "universals."
[08:56] Vic: firstname.lastname@example.org
[08:57] also available from the #apologetics
[08:57] Epesh: I digress. Back to the concept
of having a "nature". Could you explain to me what you
mean by that?
[08:58] Bye guys...thanks.
[09:00] VicN (email@example.com) left irc:
[09:00] c u Vic
[09:01] that is confusing though
[09:01] papa2two (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[09:02] papa :-)
[09:03] Epesh: what do you mean when you say
that you have a certain "nature"?
[09:03] does it mean you have a certain "existence"?
[09:03] that is confusing
[09:04] Is it? Only if you decide to make it
[09:04] It means I exist as a primary.
[09:06] harriet (AKalish@www-18-131.gnn.com) joined
[09:06] harriet (AKalish@www-18-131.gnn.com) left #Apologetics.
[09:07] Epesh: can you give me an example of
a "nature" which you posess?
[09:08] I exist; I have brown hair; I have hazel
eyes; I breathe air.
[09:10] BTW, ProfG: The burden of proof is NOT
on the challenger. the burden of proof is on the one
who makes the positive assertion.
[09:10] Action: Epesh is flipping through the apologetics
[09:11] sorry, I'm working in other windows at
the same time
[09:14] Also: Are you aware of how irritating
it can be watching that world spin around?
[09:15] yes, that's why it's there
[09:16] No doubt. :)
[09:16] BTW, Epesh: the "burden of proof" is on
the one who asserts that his/her worldview can account
for reason and logic *at all*
[09:17] So you think that reason and logic are
not natural, that they don't exist outside of a religious
[09:19] Wow, that's ONE way to undercut a viewpoint...
of course, then you undercut your own as well.
[09:19] no, you misunderstand
[09:19] Okay. Enlighten me.
[09:19] reason and logic are not possible within
an atheistic paradigm
[09:20] Oh, darn... looks like MCU is down or
[09:20] Okay. How do you come to this conclusion?
[09:20] funny, I'm getting into MCU
[09:21] I'm not. What's the address you're giving
[09:22] well, like everything else on the 'net,
if you can't get in now, try in a few minutes :-)
[09:23] Well, it contacted... now it's waiting
for a reply.
[09:24] Epesh, browse the logs for a bit... I
have to get some work done, but I'll bbl.
[09:24] The logs may help you understand what
I was saying
[09:24] Dana_ (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[09:24] i'm back.
[09:24] But we'll definitely talk later
[09:24] gotta jet now
[09:24] Mode change '+o Dana_ ' by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org
[09:24] Mode change '-o ProfG ' by ProfG!greenew@SL5.elink.net
[09:24] Action: Dana_ (((((((((( ProfG ))))))))))
[09:24] Action: Dana_ (((((((((( papa2two ))))))))))
[09:25] Dana :-)
[09:25] I'm leaving, Dana
[09:25] whats up Prof?
[09:25] you gotta stay!!!!!!!!!!
[09:25] wanna explain to Epesh why logic and
reason are not possible in an atheist paradigm? :-)
[09:25] sure :)
[09:25] Action: Epesh waits for this.
[09:26] Prof....you gonna be back later?
[09:26] Epesh......so you are an atheist..?
[09:26] In fact, I'll hang here virtually, but
[09:27] Epesh....what athiest texts have you
[09:28] I haven't read "Let's be an atheist" texts.
[09:29] lol...well.....thats not quit what I
had in mind....but ok, ...have you read any epistomolgy
[09:29] Yes, some. Primarily objectivist texts.
[09:30] really.....thats facinating
[09:30] I've apparently thought so.
[09:31] ok......well.....I guess the issue is,
(im new to this argument)......How can you justify
using Logic within your paradigm?