#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/13/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/13/96
[02:00] Gromit (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[02:03] Deanr (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined #apologetics.
[02:03] hey Gromit
[02:04] Sharisha (email@example.com) joined #Apologetics.
[02:04] Hello there.
[02:05] i'm lagged
[02:05] CTCP PING: 829375535 from Deanr (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[02:05] hey there
[02:05] Hello Sharisha
[02:06] Sharisha: what about control?
[02:06] whoa...busy night
[02:07] What is control used for?
[02:07] obvious quetion
[02:07] question even
[02:07] The issue is when "hell" was inserted into
Scripture, yes? You replied with "control". Please explain.
[02:08] Wooo...what have I stumbled on to here?
[02:08] What is control used for?
[02:09] Sharisha: please explain your position
if you would.
[02:09] I am. lets go socratic. its easier.
[02:09] What is control used for?
[02:10] by whom?
[02:10] control in general
[02:10] Sharisha: I have no idea what you're
talking about. Please enlighten me.
[02:10] okay...well start in the begining.
[02:10] what is control?
[02:10] That's a very good place to start
[02:11] I hate lag
[02:11] well, unless you are writting an epic,
but this isn't on that par.
[02:11] Pergolesi (email@example.com)
[02:12] Howdy Pergo
[02:12] hello gromit, what's happening in
the room tonight?
[02:13] Dunno, looks like they are skriting
the issue of Hell...
[02:13] Sharisha: I don't know about control.
[02:13] Sharisha: I'm waiting for you to explain.
[02:13] I kinda came in on the middle.
[02:13] Gromit: I have been up 29 hours straight...I
am barely coherent much less deep at this point. work
[02:13] tobe (DJ@dj.bayarea.net) joined #apologetics.
[02:13] No prob. 8o)
[02:14] hi tobe
[02:14] oh...i thought that was to be...as
[02:15] tobe (DJ@dj.bayarea.net) left #apologetics.
[02:15] Sharisha: you said that the concept of
hell is mythology.. made up by Christianity. I asked
how and when it was inserted into Scripture. We haven't
made it must past this.
[02:15] gromit, can you prove the existence
of hell :)
[02:16] DeanR: did you see what I told gromit...i
haven't slept in...30 hours at this point in time exactly.
It will take me a bit
[02:16] Sure...I got a parking stub.
[02:16] Sharisha: do you realize how many times..
and in how many seperate books of scripture that hell
is referred to? Now.. since it is mentioned so many
times.. what your contending.. is that somehow... the
early church inserted this fa
lse doctrine in all
[02:17] DeanR: it is the same book. It is
a...motiff. A theme carried thorugh out the book.
[02:17] these seperate books.. and somehow further..
inserted it so that the rest of the text would mold
nicely around the topic. Don't you think that is a
bit far fetched?
[02:18] Sharisha: you don't know much about how
Scripture was written and compiled do you?
[02:18] inkling (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined #apologetics.
[02:18] the concept of hell?
[02:18] hi inkling
[02:18] Hola Senor DeanR
[02:18] hello inkling, are you fresh?
[02:18] DeanR: books are made to have themes...and
hell fits in nicely.
[02:19] Fresh as a fine Belgian Waffle
[02:19] The thing that amazes me is the abandoning
of the concept of truth.
[02:19] Belgians Rule!?
[02:19] Sharisha: again, how and when was this
false doctrine so nicely inserted?
[02:19] I wonder how many Belgians will go
[02:19] Deanr: it all started when it was
[02:19] Amen Grom
[02:19] Sharisha: in other words, evidence man...
show me some evidence.
[02:20] Deanr: there is no evidence other
than the way the book was written
[02:20] Gromit: truth is all relative
[02:21] I believe that the issue relies on
[02:21] Wrong Shar
[02:21] Nothing is absoulute?
[02:21] ink: nice judgement
[02:21] If truth is all relative, why debate
or even discuss *anything*?
[02:21] Sharisha: a rather significant claim
to be adhering to that has no evidence, eh Sharisha?
[02:21] Shar...discernment isn't "judgement"
[02:21] ink: wrong. that is a judgemtn word
dictating that something is right and something is
[02:22] The sun exists. Absolute truth....2
+ 2 = 4. Absolute truth
[02:22] Math does not count.
[02:22] if all is valueless, then why should
we discuss anything?
[02:22] Shar...something IS right, and some
things ARE wrong. Child Molesting IS wrong.
[02:22] okay..obviously this is a happy invite
the pagan to kick the poor thing around discusion.
No one even wanted to hear my opinion, you were all
looking for an argument. Grow up, boys.
[02:23] Sharisha (email@example.com) left #Apologetics.
[02:23] Shar, it is hardly judgmental to agree
with every major world religion and philosophy and
say that , e.g., lying is wrong
[02:23] well, he sure told us and put us in our
[02:23] Sharisha didn't give an argument
[02:23] Guess she lost...and, imagine that,
she blamed her gender
[02:24] damn, Ink, lighten up.
[02:24] how can you lose when you don't play?
[02:24] I'm light as a lilting Belgian Waffle
[02:25] I'm heading back to #inklings...my
work is done here :)
[02:25] inkling (firstname.lastname@example.org) left #apologetics.
[02:25] What's going on in inklings.
[02:26] nada, right now
[02:26] Inks got a fire in his belly...dude
got a bad tude.
[02:27] uh huh uh huh, wella wella uh huh
[02:28] sorry my alter ego, Vinny Barbarino
[02:29] I think it may be time for chaos
[02:32] Deanr (email@example.com) left #apologetics.
[02:45] Pergolesi (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[02:50] Gromit (email@example.com) left #apologetics.
[14:37] Acolyte (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[14:37] I am here, and waiting
[14:37] howz it goin'
[14:37] what up?
[14:37] Word to my man Acolyte.
[14:37] jharrell (James@user-168-121-94-110.dialup.mindspring.com)
[14:38] Could we go back to Lorenzo Snow's
[14:38] roy- (Rooster@188.8.131.52) joined #apologetics.
[14:38] If I understand you object to the
idea that God was once "like" us and that we can become
[14:39] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBotemail@example.com
[14:39] yes, I object
[14:39] Can you tell me why?
[14:39] Oh, I see Acolyte. You just wanted
to op yourself, That's why you wouldn't come to my
[14:39] jharrell Orthodox christians reject
the notion that God is temporal and that there is more
than one true deity
[14:39] One more time: the idea that man can
become Godlike contradicts the Bible
[14:39] Mode change '+o PMantis ' by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org
[14:40] Guys, I'll stay with this, but could
we stay with one questions at a time?
[14:40] jared (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[14:40] sure. one question at a time is great.
[14:40] hi jared
[14:40] Pmantis: The idea of deification is
taught in the Bible, as well as by early christian
[14:40] how you doin' this fine Saturday.
[14:40] What is "brb"?
[14:40] Jharrell, no bible bot, but you are
going to have to back up that statement with scripture.
[14:41] Ok, let me get my scriptures
[14:41] brb = be right back
[14:41] Cannibal (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[14:41] Ok, here we go
[14:41] hello :)
[14:41] hello cannibal
[14:42] hi jharrell :)
[14:42] jharrel while it is true that some
early Christains taught the Doctirne of Theosis, it
is NOT taking on God's essence ontologically, which
is what the lds claim.
[14:42] greetings and felicitations PMantis
[14:42] what we are doing here is discussing
problems (as I see them) with mormon doctrine, one
issue at a time.
[14:42] pmantis there is a bible bot here
[14:42] Acolyte: In plain english please
[14:42] Acolyte: scroll up, I just said back
it up, I didn't say he had to use a bot. :)
[14:43] As we start, how does the Bible bot
[14:43] jharrel,ok they theought we became
like God in our moral likness not in his nature
[14:43] Acolyte: thanks
[14:43] like that
[14:43] same as Logos, kjv, right?
[14:44] bible bots rule
[14:44] no niv tho
[14:44] that's fine, the KJV will do just fine,
but I wish we would upgrade to NKJV
[14:44] Acolyte, is it capable of displaying
[14:44] Nick change: jared -> `CyberGuy
[14:45] cannibal asv?
[14:45] i am not sure
[14:45] Acolyte, American Standard Version
[14:45] cannibal yeah I got it
[14:45] i mean I understood asv
[14:45] OK, the bot is our friend now, so let's
get to the topic at hand "deification"
[14:46] Ok lets start here
[14:46] What is Pauls saying?
[14:46] jharrell, you can start there with
Pmantis, but I would like to see how you justify your
use of the bible and your authority to interpret it
seeing that you are not part of the Church and that
the Bible belongs to the Church
[14:47] jharrl that is, I do not accept your
presuption that you have the authority to rightly interpret
the bible at all
[14:47] Acolyte: OK, so you interpret it,
what does this passage say?
[14:48] `CyberGuy (email@example.com) got netsplit.
[14:48] Acolyte, Do you believe that no one
but a Christian (definition to follow no doubt:) can
use the bible to establish a point in a debate?
[14:50] jharrell if you do a word study on children
you will see in all places in scriptures that we are
ADOPTED CHILDREN of God ...there was only one Son of
[14:50] Anyone can misinterpret the Bible.
I am sure we all do. But the Bible, being an inspired
work, by it's nature does not allow for vast amounts
of logical extrapolation.
[14:50] jharell that the Spirit teaches us
and bears witness to our confort and that we are shares
in the victory of Christ
[14:50] jharrell St paul teaches us there that
we are united to Christ by his Humanity
[14:50] Roy: I agree - adopted - But what
about the joint-heirs part in what way are we glorified
[14:51] jhareel sure, we are co-heirs with
Messiah we are united to him inhis Humanity
[14:51] So do either of you want to answer
[14:51] And Acolytes point about "adopted children"
vs "son of God" is well made. It is clear in many scriptural
[14:51] jharrell I just did
[14:51] in fact, check out this
[14:51] Acolyte: We are united with him in
"glory" not humanity
[14:51] jharrell we are united to the Messiah
in his Humanity, hence as Son of Man we will sit with
[14:52] jhareel it is both
[14:52] jharrell, the Body is glorified
[14:52] OK, so in what way do we partake of
[14:52] jharela nd we are presently seated
with him in glory, since he is the Covenant head
[14:52] jharrell ethically first and formost
[14:52] Action: Cannibal notes that xian theology seems
to teach that xians (as the new humanity - spiritual
descendants of the last Adam) are united to Christ
in his humanity, and that this union is eternal.
[14:52] jharrell then our human nature becomes
like HIS human nature at the resurrection
[14:53] Acolyte: and what does that mean we
[14:53] cannibal Christ is the Everlasting
[14:53] jharrel Glorified Humans
[14:53] jharrel we willbe like him for we shall
see hiim, just as he is
[14:53] "Glorified Humans" like Christ?
[14:54] `CyberGuy (firstname.lastname@example.org) got lost
in the net-split.
[14:54] jharrell sure, except we are not incarnations
of Deity, we have one nature ontologically, he has
two united in one person
[14:54] Acolyte, I know of Chalcidon(sp?)
[14:54] Jesus is God, and like God, is eternal.
He was not a human first
[14:54] cannibal chalcedon, ;)
[14:54] The point is we become like Christ
[14:55] jharrell the point is that we become
like christ in what he redeemed, not in what was not
[14:55] Shostakov (email@example.com)
[14:55] jharrel christ redeemed our bodies
and souls, not his deity, so what is raised to Glory
is our bodies and souls
[14:55] But you just said we become "glorified
humans" like Christ
[14:56] jharrell sure, inso far as jesus HUmanity
was glorified, we will be like Him in that glorified
[14:56] PMantis, Do you think his taking on
of human nature changed him in any way?
[14:56] Acolyte, I was close mate :)
[14:56] We may share characteristics with God,
the Father, and the Son, like Free Will, the ability
to determine right from wrong, etc. Sharing characteristics
with God does not make us Gods.
[14:56] cannibal I willlet it slide dude. ;)
[14:56] Actually, I would say gods
[14:56] little "g"
[14:56] pmantis those are communicable attirbutes,
[14:56] the distinction is lost on me.
[14:57] jharrell little g or biog G, Jesus
says there is only ONE true God, so any other God
is a false God
[14:57] jharrell hence little g is a false
[14:57] PMantis, Isn't it true that only the
good (as in not fallen) have true freedom of the will,
since all others are in bondage to sin.
[14:57] Tell me, would you interpretation
be different if early church fathers believed and taught
the idea of deification?
[14:57] pmantis ok what is INcommunicable is
like his omnipresence, omniscicnece etc, his moral
attributes he does communicate with us.
[14:58] jhareel I derive my teaching fromt
[14:58] glo` (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined #apologetics.
[14:58] OK, shal we look at what some of them
[14:59] Topic changed by ApoloBotemail@example.com:
The Home of Rational Theism
[14:59] adopted children carry no common nature
of their parents...but they can inherit anything the
parents bestow on their children but God will not share
his glory with another.Isiah 42:8
[14:59] jharrell, The term deification is
still in use in the Catholic communion.
[15:00] jharrl that is fine, I am quite familair
with the PAtristics, but you chruch says hthat they
were apostates, so do you go to ppl you consider apostates
for your teaching?
[15:00] don't confuse Catholicism with Biblical
[15:00] pmantis just chill dude
[15:00] Acolytes: You may want to be careful
about what you assume that we teach
[15:00] Acolyte: you Catholic? Please say
it isn't so!
[15:00] jharrell and the same goes for you
[15:00] Pmantis I am Anglican
[15:01] jharrel we don't assume anything.
I read the doctrine, articles of faith, etc.
[15:01] PMantis, I have no problems with distinguishing
Protestant varieties of xianity from Catholicism :)
[15:01] jharrel I have read the Patrictis all
40+ volumes and I have read gobs of lds theology as
[15:01] Acolytes: Have I made any assumptions
about your belief?
[15:01] jharrell yes
[15:01] Li9ke what?
[15:01] Cannibal: Christians aren't denominational
by definition. The Bible is the only authority, being
the only written work of God.
[15:01] jharrel that the early chruch taught
your understanding of theosis, which they did not
[15:02] cwewwess (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined #apologetics.
[15:02] ok, lets look shall we?
[15:02] glo` (email@example.com) left #apologetics.
[15:02] pmantis that is an inhouse debate,
lets concentrate at the issue at hand
[15:02] PMantis, are you in a denomination?
[15:02] jharrlehave you beenreadng the bk by
lds, Are Mormons CHristains?" ?
[15:02] I am a Christian: a believer in Justification
by Faith in Jesus' Death and Resurrection.
[15:03] Sammoda (Intouch@l-pool.u-net.com) joined #Apologetics.
[15:03] pmantis that is an inhouse debate,
lets concentrate at the issue at hand
[15:03] Acolyte: I was answering questions
posed by cannibal
[15:03] pmanitis just reminding u
[15:03] "If the word became a man, it is so
that men may become gods" Saint Ireanus - Against Heresies
[15:03] Acolyte: No, haven;t read the book
you refer to
[15:03] Jhareel what is your source for that
[15:04] Saint? who made him a saint? Who
says he was right?
[15:04] Against Heresies Book 5 Preface
[15:04] jhareel I know what St Ireneaus is
saysing since I have read Against Heresies, have your
ead it, or just that quote?
[15:04] PMantis, how do you know that Catholicism
is not "Biblical Christianity"?
[15:04] Sammoda (Intouch@l-pool.u-net.com) left #Apologetics.
[15:04] Cannibal forget that convo for now
[15:04] Cannibal: because Catholic Doctrine
contradicts the teachings of Jesus and the Bible
[15:05] Acolyte, gladly mate :)
[15:05] Pmanits put a corq in it
[15:05] cork whatever
[15:05] u know what I meant