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#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/25/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/25/96
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[00:31] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu:
The Home of Rational Theism
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[00:53] apolo whata gics?
[00:53] what is this place?
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[01:31] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu:
The Home of Rational Theism
[01:35] Pergolesi (~jb@phx-ip-247.netzone.com) joined
#Apologetics.
[01:36] cephas (dave@c5mc1-asy14.newcastle.edu.au)
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[01:36] Hi
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left #apologetics.
[01:45] tomAthest (tomk@lute.qnet.com) joined #apologetics.
[01:45] hello tomAthest
[01:46] Hello, Pergolesi
[01:46] what's on your mind tonight?
[01:46] Oh, I just wanted to see what was
going on.
[01:46] Not much just now.
[01:46] all alone with the ApoloBot and W
till you joined
[01:47] I saw you in #bible.
[01:47] I assume W and ApoloBot are bots.
[01:47] yes, I was rather disappointed with
the convo...rather be by myself instead
[01:47] yes, they are bots.
[01:48] They were just fooling around
[01:48] Thank you, ApoloBot.
[01:48] I know tom, just not in that mood
tonight
[01:48] Spring is coming. Fast, now.
[01:48] Summer is here!
[01:49] Where?
[01:49] where do you live
[01:49] I am in Arizona
[01:49] VA - I wish I were in Az.
[01:49] Phoenix?
[01:50] do you like 105 degrees in April?
[01:50] 8 miles W of Wash. DC
[01:50] Yes, I do, if the humidity is low.
[01:50] hmmm, give me the California coast
:)
[01:50] I came from Washington St. long ago.
[01:51] I lived in E. Washington, where it
is similar to Arizona.
[01:51] N. California is good.
[01:52] yes, I lived in Santa Cruz...beautiful
[01:52] I've been to all 50 states.
[01:52] Oregon seems to have the most interesting
beaches.
[01:53] rocky and cliffs
[01:53] There are sea animals among the rocks.
[01:53] Where in AZ do you live?
[01:53] sounds wonderful
[01:53] I am in Tempe, by Phoenix
[01:54] Is that East of Phoenix?
[01:54] yes southeast
[01:54] I spend a week around Phoenix December
before last. I liked it.
[01:55] about 12 miles from downtown
[01:55] very nice except summer months
[01:55] I had a week of leave to use or lose
by New Year's/
[01:55] but not enough trees here
[01:55] I know.
[01:55] I love the trees
[01:55] giant redwoods
[01:55] You in the military?
[01:55] The best trees.
[01:55] No, Govt.
[01:56] I liked the Christmas music station!
[01:56] Twice
[01:56] FBI?
[01:56] X-files?
[01:56] haha
[01:56] Naw. We buy pencils and hammers
and paper and sell it to other agencies.
[01:57] What is the Christmas music station?
[01:57] No secret stuff. No military stuff.
No tax stuff.
[01:57] The station in Phoenix.
[01:57] U never heard of it? I listened
to it the whole time.
[01:58] KTWC
[01:58] Do you buy those $75.00 toilet seats
for the govt?
[01:58] I think it just switches over at
Christmas.
[01:58] Nope. That was probably the military.
[01:58] There are cool steel drums on the
radio now!
[01:58] Yes, it was a seasonal thing for
them.
[01:59] haha
[01:59] Poingo Pwango.
[01:59] The steel drums are a fun instrument,
no?
[01:59] Yes, the music makes everyone feel
like they're on vacation.
[02:00] exactly :)
[02:00] I am in Jamaica on a hammock right
now, sipping an iced tea
[02:00] yep
[02:01] A funny thing happened while I visited
Phoenix.
[02:01] what's that?
[02:01] Ever heard of Sheep Bridge?
[02:01] no, I don't think so
[02:02] It is North of Phoenix about 40 miles.
[02:02] ok
[02:02] I saw that there was supposed to
be some interesting rocks around ther.
[02:02] So I decided to go. In the rental
car.
[02:03] The road was a fairly rough gravel
road.
[02:03] There was a place where a creek was
crossing the road.
[02:03] So I stopped the car to get out for
quick look to see how deep it was.
[02:04] The stupid car locked its door on
me when I was outside!
[02:04] haha
[02:04] sorry
[02:04] :)
[02:04] I was in the middle of a desert with
the car in the middle of the road and the motor running.
[02:05] What to do?
[02:05] swim?
[02:05] I took a big rock and busted the
back window.
[02:05] The little triangle window.
[02:06] I got inside and kept on going for
the rest of the day.
[02:06] quite an adventure
[02:07] Yeah, I guess.
[02:07] I would've done the same I think
[02:07] In the Bahamas, someone broke the
same kind of window of our rental car there and stole
some stuff while we were looking at a beach.
[02:07] that's a drag
[02:08] I sure wish I had travelled as much
as you
[02:08] Yes, you don't want to waste a whole
day of vacation waiting for nobody in the desert!
[02:08] you married
[02:08] Traveling is only one thing to do
in life.
[02:08] Just got married 2 months ago.
[02:08] And you?
[02:08] Congrats!
[02:08] THanks!
[02:09] No, I am not, but I would like to
travel a lot with my wife.
[02:09] All that traveling I did was not
with my wife.
[02:09] I am sure
[02:09] We did go to Italy on our honeymoon,
though.
[02:10] Was it romantic?
[02:10] Do you have a wife?
[02:10] I mean Italy
[02:10] It was.
[02:10] No I do not have a wife...not God's
timing yet, I guess
[02:10] Italy was nice, interesting, expensive.
[02:10] What does your nick stand for?
[02:11] guess
[02:11] It kind of sounds like Atheist...
[02:11] right
[02:11] There aren't enough letters.
[02:11] rasqual (rasqual@pool2-056.wwa.com) joined
#Apologetics.
[02:12] Hey rasqual
[02:12] it could also be...tom A theist...haha
[02:12] hello hasqual
[02:12] Yo!
[02:12] Pergolesi: true, one of those things
that is hard to tell.
[02:12] Like:
[02:12] in which case you are in the right
room
[02:12] GODISNOWHERE
[02:13] yes, exactly
[02:13] what is happening rasquel
[02:13] Good question!
[02:14] What is the answer
[02:14] tom: very few people truly believe
that God does not exist.
[02:14] I know.
[02:14] Most are agnostics.
[02:14] What's this "ApoloBot?" Someone want
to demo it for me?
[02:14] sure
[02:14] But as for the question...
[02:15] Whoa~!
[02:15] Kewl....
[02:15] I look at it in terms of probabilities.
[02:16] OK, now how about this "W"--is that a
bot too?
[02:16] oh really, explain please
[02:16] yes, W is the bot that keeps the
channel alive, so to speak, all day and night
[02:16] Kewl again.
[02:17] How hot does this channel get?
[02:17] it does not recognize me as worthy
to be an op though :(
[02:17] Like the probability that rasqual
is male. Each of us decides on a probability of some
assertion.
[02:17] depends what you mean by hot
[02:17]
[02:17] rasqual: hardly anyone is ever here
[02:18] That's because you never discuss Plantinga's
transworld depravity, counterfactuals of freedom, or
middle knowledge...
[02:18] To me, the probability of the existence
of God is less than 1%.
[02:18] that is because it is supposed to
be an "intellectual" channel...and very few people fit
that description on the irc
[02:18] I will take that bet, thank you :)
[02:18] On what basis, though?
[02:18] tomAthest -- how do you quantify all
that?
[02:19] It isn't really quantified.
[02:19] Just low.
[02:19] So 1% is "qualified?" :)
[02:19] What is the chance that life as we
know it would have evolved exactly the way it has til
this point?
[02:19] Does that make me an agnostic? An
atheist?
[02:19] 0%
[02:20] right tom
[02:20] -1% ;)
[02:20] Jpar (joupp@max3-gg-ca-18.earthlink.net) joined
#Apologetics.
[02:20] But it did happen.
[02:20] I think that makes you an agnostic...definition:
do not have sufficient evidence to know whether or
not there is a God.
[02:20] No one does.
[02:21] I do.
[02:21] That's not an agnostic statement...
[02:21] The "no one does," I mean
[02:21] Most agnostics, though, seem to talk
like the probability is more like 50%.
[02:21] Also, "does not have," or "is not aware
of warrant for?"
[02:22] they can not determine odds, because
they do not have evidence
[02:22] Right
[02:22] They are not agnostic, they are confused
:)
[02:22] They don't know what they believe
[02:22] If God appeared here on Earth for
everyone to see and talk to, then we would all know.
[02:22] But he does not and so we don't.
[02:22] He did at one time
[02:22] Tom, we would still doubt.
[02:22] Well, that _is_ what some claim...
[02:22] hello Jpar
[02:23] Hiya
[02:23] And yup, doubt happens
[02:23] I doubt..
[02:23] therefore
[02:23] but I believe
[02:23] Paul Bunyan was here at one time
too.
[02:23] My crisis is not of belief, but of
trust
[02:23] As Os Guinness would say, only faith
doubts
[02:23] a crisis?
[02:24] Yes, I have a crisis
[02:24] What is your crisis of trust?
[02:24] Well, I thought for a long time that
I had a crisis of belief...
[02:24] ok
[02:25] that is sometimes I thought I believed,
and sometimes I didn't
[02:25] same as everyone, probably
[02:25] but God has shown me that I do indeed
believe, but do not trust
[02:25] Bing-go.
[02:25] That is a big difference
[02:25] Huge!
[02:25] BIG difference
[02:25] I just realized this last evening
[02:25] Too big.
[02:26] Why too big?
[02:26] If God existes, he cannot be trusted.
[02:26] How to lean on what some deem a void,
believing that the personal Ground of all being is
their to butress life itself...
[02:26] You see, I do not really believe
fully that what God has planned for me is in my best
interests.
[02:26] That is the crisis of trust.
[02:26] People who trust in God to save them
often die.
[02:26] or _there_ to buttress, as the case
may be ;)
[02:27] We all die
[02:27] If we didn't, I would believe!
[02:27] And few of us trust God
[02:27] But trust is believing that God will
direct you in a perfect way, regardless of the cost
[02:27] Life is sometimes the cost
[02:27] Yup.
[02:28] If we didn't you'd believe?
[02:28] I trust God, and I accept the fact the
things are not always going to be for *my* benefit.
[02:28] If good, moral people lived for hundreds
of years because God saved them, then I wold believe.
But they die just like everyone else.
[02:28] Yup again, to Jpar.
[02:28] The wages of sin is death...
[02:28] all shall die.
[02:28] tomAthest, that's a scriptural observation.
;)
[02:28] But God only can redeem
[02:29] Things cannot possibly be for everyon's
benefit all the time. Think of the job of grave digging.
[02:29] In a world where death is real, grave
digging is a very good thing.
[02:29] The wages of morality is death also.
[02:30] We may not SEE things as being for
our benefit...but if we let God have our life in His
control, He will direct our paths.
[02:30] rasqual: my point
[02:30] If God allows me to starve to death, I
figure I'll be miserable for a couple months, then
I'll be in heaven. I can accept this.
[02:30] Imagine being a coroner.
[02:30] If God existed, would death be His
fault.
[02:31] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu:
The Home of Rational Theism
[02:31] freaky bot
[02:31] Pergolesi: but it is indistinguishable
that our life paths are not random.
[02:31] Perhaps. The question is whether, a
posteriori, it is in fact.
[02:31] I know that my life path is not random.
[02:31] If God existed and created everything,
it would all be his 'fault
[02:31] Not so, tomAthest
[02:32] at least not in toto
[02:32] There are profound historical quirks
[02:32] Oh, yes, it is all his creation.
[02:32] no, God has given us the ability
to choose, and each one of us chooses a will other
than God's
[02:32] Indeed, but the randomness is not evident
everywhere at all times.
[02:33]
