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[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/6/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/6/96 [00:31] creation (dcovalt@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu) joined #apologetics. [00:31] Mode change '+o creation ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu [00:32] uh....._howdee_ [00:32] what's the discuss Alcuin? [00:32] zen, i HAVE questioned my faith and i appreciate your challenging it [00:32] TheRaven: I am at the university of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign. [00:32] so, can anyone else explain to me what "rational" theism is? [00:32] where did everyone go? [00:32] oh! [00:32] I forgot! [00:32] um [00:32] I'm not alcuin [00:32] darn [00:33] Why do we have to challeng one another. If our faith has relevance then the other person will be attracted to it. [00:33] newsong (newsong@perham-40.dialup.eot.com) left #apologetics. [00:33] so zen, waht was the question again? [00:33] Zen: Talk to Acolyte about it. He would be happy to tell you. Although I think it is obvious. [00:33] zen: theism is rational. [00:34] Zen. I think it means that they can prove their belief through logic. [00:34] creation: my question is asked, however, because it seems to me whenever i get into a discussion, it quickly becomes irrational. [00:34] Action: Judith isn't going to take that one on. [00:34] Nick change: Alcuin` -> Flyer- [00:34] zen: The discussion or theism? [00:34] Because the bible is irrational [00:34] zen [00:34] creation: the explanations seem to quickly dissolve into "i have faith" etc. [00:35] which is not rational as far as I understand the definition [00:35] zen: Everyone has faith. [00:35] faith is where it all ends up. even faith in logic [00:35] I am not the Alcuin that frequents this channel...sorry for any misunderstanding. [00:35] zen: are you equating rational and logical? [00:35] zen: is faith irrational? [00:35] yes, i was referring to faith in god, jesus and the bible [00:35] i was referring to faith in god, jesus and the bible [00:36] zen: Why is belief in God, Jesus and the Bible irrational? [00:36] faith in your own experience is rational [00:36] creation: but faith in what....faith is only as good as the object it is placed in. [00:36] zen: define faith. [00:36] creation: faith in miracles, etc, is irrational. [00:36] zen: Why? [00:36] zen: Why is it irrational? [00:37] zen : Why is belief in them irrational? [00:37] zen: because you say so? [00:37] zen: define faith. [00:37] creation: does not the definition of the word rational imply that there are logical explanations? whereas miracles do not have logical explanations. [00:37] nomos: that is not relevant/ [00:38] zen: Logical based on the presupposition that there is a God. [00:38] zen: it is if you do not know the meaning of the word [00:38] zen: Logic presupposes the existence of God. [00:38] zen: define pistis [00:38] or pisteuo [00:38] creation: so, then, your "rational" and mine are different. [00:38] or give me a secular definition [00:38] really creation? [00:38] nomos: what is your point?> [00:39] zen: I am trying to understand if you can define the words, to understand what you are basing your conclusion on [00:39] zen: If you don't believe that there is a God, how can you even speak of what is rational and what isn't? [00:39] AegisIII: yes [00:39] zen: do you believe in spontaneous existence? [00:39] spontaneous generation [00:39] creation: oh please. i am not even going to get into a discussion based on your assertion that god created what is rational. [00:39] and you say that because? [00:39] Zen: God is logic. Without God there is no logic. [00:40] do you believe in spontaneous generation? [00:40] Zen: YOu can't contend with this? [00:40] zen: do you believe in spontaneous existence? [00:40] creation: well, then we have nothing to discuss. [00:40] zen: [00:40] ? [00:40] if god created logic, than logic would have to be entirely arbitrary, as whatever god decided was logical would be logical [00:40] AegisIII: God IS logic [00:40] nomos: i would ask you to refrain from firing questions at me while i am having a conversation woth someone else. [00:41] creation: what do you mean by that? [00:41] god is logic? thats an assertion [00:41] zen: fine. [00:41] zen: I'll wait if you like. [00:41] Aegis: yeah, it is one that follows from logic. :) [00:41] creation: what do you mean God is logic? [00:41] Aegis: Is there a time when the laws of logic didn't exist? [00:41] odd, ive never reached that conclusion [00:41] Judith (Sandra@199.86.33.188) left #apologetics. [00:41] Aegis: Try harder [00:42] sure, when people didnt [00:42] creation: if you say that "god created logic and all that is rational" and I say "he did not because there is no god" there really is no way to argue it, i s there? [00:42] zen: no, because that is a tautological argument. [00:42] :) [00:42] Aegis: Oh, so when people didn't exist, then A doesn't equall non-A didn't hold? [00:42] no when people didnt exist, logic was meaningless [00:42] Zen: God is logic.. Capish? [00:43] creation: what do you mean by that statement, God is logic? [00:43] same with morality [00:43] Aegis: logic isn't meaningless. [00:43] thw word "logis" would be meaningless [00:43] logis=logic [00:44] creation: you may choose to label "god" what I call "logic". but, your definition goes further than that, does it not? [00:44] Aegis: the words are only meaningless if they refer to nothing. I say that the words refer to something and therefore have meaning. [00:44] fine then, explain logic or morality, without using humans in any way [00:44] Zen: Sure, but I don't have to go farther to prove my point. [00:45] logics is a science (or a methodology) how can God be a science or methodology??? [00:45] AegisIII: Simple, God's standard. [00:45] Hello creation [00:45] BTW, nomos: i define rational as that which can be based upon reason or logic. [00:45] hello theraven [00:45] zen: Then theism is rational [00:46] uhh were trying to prove wether god exists, right? so what is god's standard? how did he decide it? [00:46] creation: explain to me how, if jesus or god can perform miracles, those events would be based on reason and logic. to me, a miracle, by definition is NOT what would normally follow. [00:46] Aegis: Ever here of the transcendental argument? [00:47] Hey Zen. I answered your question. How about checking it out and answereing? [00:47] zen: you are resticting logics to the laws of nature?? [00:47] yeah-it sounds strange, i dont put much basis on it [00:47] zen: that's interesting ; ) [00:47] Zen: Theism is logical and reasonable. Miracles are reasonable in a theistic paradigm [00:47] snowberry (snowberr@ad11-070.compuserve.com) joined #apologetics. [00:47] zen: where do you think "logics" or "rational thinking" originated? [00:47] but again-how did decid what his basis for logical would be? [00:48] creation: then, if you and I are in a different paradigm, our meaning of rational differs. [00:48] how did god decide that is? [00:48] zen: was Socrates/Plato/Aristotle theists? [00:48] AegisIII: No one has brought up any good counter agument to it as of yet. [00:48] was=were [00:48] no on eputs much weight on it [00:48] nomos: were they the first logical thinkers? [00:48] zen: you don't know? [00:48] What is the argument [00:48] nomos: i assert that they were not. [00:48] How old are you Zen? and what sex? [00:48] Zen: If you are not in a theistic paradigm then you are the one that is in trouble, not me. You are the one that won't have a basis for knowledge or ethics, not me. [00:49] creation: i basically reject that statement [00:49] what is the Debate [00:49] Aegis: bull crap [00:49] zen: it is obvious you have never read from Plato or Aristotle. [00:49] Flyer- (whoneeds@dial9.vonl.com) left #apologetics. [00:49] creation-how did god decide what his basis for logic would be? [00:49] Zen: Prove me wrong [00:49] nomos: grow up, i have a degree in philosophy. [00:49] snowberry (snowberr@ad11-070.compuserve.com) left #apologetics. [00:49] Aegis: Does it matter. It is based on His character. [00:49] zen: please. [00:49] zen: your point? [00:49] zen: nice ad hominem there bud [00:50] zen: did you learn that in philosophy? [00:50] nomos: heheh [00:50] zen: or does that come natural? [00:50] nomos: if i need to spell it out for you, you cannot get a degree in philosophy without reading the greek thinkers. understand it now>? [00:50] his character- and how does his character make his basis of logical correct? [00:50] nomos: it is natural. [00:50] Action: creation wishes acolyte were here, then we could have some real fun :) [00:50] zen: thought so. [00:51] Zen. What do you think happens to you after death? [00:51] zen: so are you non theist then? [00:51] atheist [00:51] whatever [00:51] mantro: basically, i don't know. [00:51] Aegis: The conception that I hold of God. [00:51] zen: so are you non theist then? [00:51] Nomos: Do you believe in anything [00:51] nomos: yes. [00:51] Zen. Did you read what I wrote for you? [00:52] in private [00:52] raven: certainly...do you? [00:52] conception? that's it. you think god's character causes logic only due to your conception [00:52] mantro: i did, but i have not really considered it, i got involved here. [00:52] zen: so are you non theist then? [00:52] I believe in God the creator of the Heavens and the earth [00:52] raven: amen...as I [00:52] thats OK zen. just move on to whatever interests you [00:52] nomos, pay attention, i answered that already. [00:53] raven: I also believe in His Son, Jesus...and in a literal resurection [00:53] PTL so do I [00:53] Aegis: I have a concept of God. Anselmian. From the concept it falls logically that He must exist. [00:53] Aegis: You have to deal with my conception. If you can't then that is your problem. [00:53] Zen. The only reason I keep bugging you is because I see you as the only seeker of truth here. [00:53] zen: I didn't catch it....care to restate? [00:54] nomos: yes, i am an atheist. [00:54] ahh the ontological argument. ive done some thinking on that. the most perfect being only leads to contradictions [00:54] but alas, maybe I should move on.... [00:54] Aegis: Wrong. [00:54] wrong on what? [00:54] mantro: based upon what? [00:54] You all are having more fun with your bible debate. [00:54] mantro: you know us well enough to assert that? [00:54] zen: so then...that proves my point....you believe spontaneous generation is logical??? [00:55] Spontaneous generation is not logical for me [00:55] Aegis: Not only do you have to deal with the ontological argument, you have to deal with the cosmological, the transcendental, the teleological, etc and many reditions of them. [00:55] spontaneous generation is a hoax [00:55] AMEN [00:55] creation: sounds like you have read a lot of Tillich or Chardin [00:55] Your mind is made up. Zen admits he doesn't know things for sure. More enlightened to me. [00:56] nomos: i do not hold that god and the creator are necessarily one and the same. [00:56] Action: AegisIII only is gonna concetrate on the ontological right now, as he really should be sleeping [00:56] what is onotlogical [00:56] Action: creation needs to study for his finals. [00:56] Theraven: ontological refers to state of being. [00:56] creation- feel like stopping? [00:57] Aegis: I should. I have to study. [00:57] noah (none@dd15-108.compuserve.com) joined #Apologetics. [00:57] ok. bye [00:57] noah (none@dd15-108.compuserve.com) left #Apologetics. [00:57] zen: interesting thoughts....based upon what? your own subjective thoughts? [00:57] AegisIII (estoeben@asm4-2.sl003.cns.vt.edu) left irc: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_5_6_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

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