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#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/15/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/15/96
[04:03] Mook (markg@slipr13.anu.edu.au) joined #apologetics.
[04:04] Nomos (Alethia@kuts12p06.cc.ukans.edu) joined
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[04:05] Hi again, Nom.
[04:05] hi
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[04:07] hi better?
[04:07] Hi.
[04:07] Server change?
[04:07] should be better
[04:07] yea
[04:07] what port are you on?
[04:07] port?
[04:07] numero?
[04:07] 6662, I think.
[04:07] ok
[04:07] hang on
[04:07] brb
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[04:08] should be better
[04:08] Okay. :)
[04:08] ahh
[04:08] yea
[04:08] :)
[04:08] excellent
[04:08] 1 second
[04:08] I get 6s from here.
[04:08] hmmm...I get one
[04:08] But that's managable anyway.
[04:08] regardless....still better
[04:08] sure.
[04:08] you believe in God when it is necessary
[04:09] ?
[04:09] care to exaplin?
[04:09] explain rather
[04:09] Well, my beliefs change according to what
I want to do with them.
[04:09] ok
[04:09] Except that some of them change hardly
at all.
[04:09] what are your beliefs about God?
[04:09] monotheistic?
[04:09] poly?
[04:09] pan?
[04:09] If necessary.
[04:09] huh?
[04:09] :)
[04:10] Yes. Sometimes.
[04:10] sometimes all?
[04:10] ever read the Bible?
[04:10] Sometimes.
[04:10] What other holy books do you read?
[04:10] what do you think about it?
[04:10] It's very dry. But it's very wise in places.
[04:10] oh...I have read many....but I am a Christian
all the way through
[04:11] koran
[04:11] Book of MOrmon
[04:11] Pearl of Great Price
[04:11] Doctrine and Covenants
[04:11] I don't know the last two.
[04:11] mormon scripture
[04:11] Mmm.
[04:11] jataka
[04:12] li chi book of ritual
[04:12] tibetian book of the dead
[04:12] apocrypha
[04:13] mahaparinirvana sutra
[04:13] etc
[04:13] etc
[04:13] etc
[04:13] etc
[04:13] :)
[04:13] you?
[04:13] Heh. :)
[04:13] do you know about Jesus?
[04:14] what he did and the claims he made?
[04:14] A different set, I think. Pieces of the
Upanishads, bits of the Q'ran, bits of the Bible. Bits
of a book whose name I can't recall, but which explains
the eightfold path of Zen..
[04:14] Stories of Jesus are part of my cultural
heritage. There are a lot of them, but I know many
of the significant ones.
[04:15] do you know what he taught was the only
way to God?
[04:15] As I understand it, he was quoted as saying
that you have to believe in him, and pray in his name.
Otherwise, you're screwed.
[04:15] I think you got it...somewhat
[04:16] believe in Him in what way though......
[04:16] ?
[04:16] you can say you believe in me too...that
I exist anyway.
[04:16] my point being...
[04:16] He's quoted as having made the claim repeatedly
that he was the son of god, and many have since commented
that his purpose was to die to exonerate man from a
lot of sinning.
[04:16] even the devil would believe in his existence
[04:16] great
[04:17] man is a fallen creature due to sin
[04:17] As proof of which, he's reported to have
risen from the dead three days after being buried in
a cave.
[04:17] and therefore separated from God
[04:17] amen
[04:17] and he did.
[04:17] :)
[04:17] according to Jesus...there is only one
way to wipe that sin from your body
[04:18] and that is to accept him as your payment
[04:18] Mmmm.
[04:18] I'm a little confused about that.
[04:18] thus...HIs righteouness is judged at
the day of judgement
[04:18] and not yours
[04:18] ok
[04:18] maybe I can help
[04:18] maybe I cannot
[04:18] but I'll try
[04:18] what are you confused with?
[04:18] Jesus did not sin.
[04:18] The idea of Jesus' death as payment. My
knowledge of the bible is incomplete, but it's not
clear that he ever actually said that this was the
purpose of his death.
[04:19] he lived a perfect life according to
the Law of God
[04:19] I know the 'this is my body... this is
my blood' bit..
[04:19] the Last Supper.
[04:19] But there's also the 'Why have you forsaken
me' bit, which was also quoted.
[04:19] And wh
ich occurred while he was hanging.
[04:19] yes...He was quoting from Isaiah when
he said that
[04:19] that was a quote from Isaiah
[04:19] eli eli, lambda sabachthani - is what
he said (in aramiac)
[04:20] you don't understand how he was the payment?
[04:20] I'm unsure that the death for death thing
isn't a later construction.
[04:21] not at all.
[04:21] it is the whole theme of the book of
Leviticus
[04:21] ever read it?
[04:21] I don't recall it by name.
[04:21] 3rd book in the bible
[04:21] My concern is whether there's a direct
quote to suggest that this was his intention, or whether
it was an interpretation, described as a revealed truth
by an apostle or prophet.
[04:22] do you know what separates Christianity
from every other religion?
[04:22] From what I've seen, every religion is
separate from every other religion, but in different
ways.
[04:22] Please tell me what is the Christian distinction.
[04:23] religion is man's way working to God
[04:23] for part of, or all of salvation
[04:23] Action: Mook listens.
[04:23] Christianity is God reaching down to
man
[04:23] and not of mans efforts..merits..or works.
[04:23] it is a free gift
[04:23] all you can do is accept it
[04:23] and consider what comes with it.
[04:23] John 3:36
[04:24] he that believeth on the son hath everlasting
life
[04:24] What does Nomos mean? Is it Greek for
'name'?
[04:24] he that believeth not on the SOn shall
not see life, but the wrath of God abidith on him
[04:24] it is greek for "law"
[04:24] good guess though
[04:24] koine greek to be precise
[04:24] Thank you.
[04:24] not modern or classical
[04:24] :)
[04:24] consider..
[04:25] Lu 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation
unto his people by the remission of their sins,
{by: or, for}
[04:25] remission of sins
[04:25] the whole theme of the Gospels was that
Christ's blood..suffering on the cross was the payment
for a fallen creature
[04:25] this _is_ the Gospel
[04:25] :)
[04:26] all you would have to do is accept Christ
as your saviour...and you can be assured eternal life.
[04:26] seems pretty simple eh?
[04:26] too simple you say?
[04:26] :)
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[04:29] hola
[04:29] Hi again. :)
[04:29] did you get what I said?
[04:29] The last thing I saw: Nomos: koine
greek to be precise
[04:29] hmm...bummer.
[04:29] I was giving you the Gospel
[04:30] I have a book at home that can do that,
Nomos.
[04:30] The reason I'm here isn't to read that
book. It's to talk to you.
[04:30] ok
[04:30] what would you like to talk about?>
[04:31] Well, I'd like to know why rational theism
is important to you.
[04:31] Or if it's not, what opinion you have
about it.
[04:32] From talking to you, I can tell that you're
very well read, and have a lot of commitment to what
you believe.
[04:32] rational theism....
[04:32] yes...it is very important to me.
[04:32] Although I don't believe in all those
things, neither do I think it's stupid to do so.
[04:32] I'm mainly interested in what gains you
get in the here and now.
[04:32] ok
[04:32] I get to serve my Lord
[04:32] :)
[04:33] I get to be adopted in his family
[04:33] Please stop a minute.
[04:33] and have a 'pretty' bright future ahead
of me
[04:33] :)
[04:33] ok
[04:33] Please imagine that I have no idea what
those things mean, and no way of imagining them, except
as they affect your relationships and your attitude
to the world around you.
[04:33] ok
[04:33] If you can imagine that, and explain to
an idiot, then I reckon you'll be making perfect sense
to me. :)
[04:34] :)
[04:34] I understand..
[04:34] God created me....and you.
[04:34] I was fallen in sin...for most of my
life.
[04:34] Eeee...
[04:34] This isn't working well.
[04:34] God ave me the chance to wipe all of
the sins away.
[04:34] ok
[04:34] sorry
[04:34] I don't know why sin is a problem in your
relationships or your world.
[04:35] I don't know why your origins have anything
to do with your purpose in life.
[04:35] what do I get from all this...in simple
terms?
[04:35] Mm. Please!
[04:35] And I'm interested in why rational theism
is better than irrational theism. :)
[04:35] I get to have fellowship with the author
of all creation.
[04:35] If that's the right word.
[04:35] I can talk to my creator as I would my
father or friend
[04:35] that is not my topic heading...
[04:36] but...I would say that my theology is
rational ;)
[04:36] Please go on.
[04:36] I'll save my questions to the end. Or
until I can't read any more. :)
[04:36] heeh
[04:36] go ahead and ask now as I have a feeeling
I may not be answering your questions right
[04:36] Well...
[04:37] Are your relationships now better or worse
for your faith?
[04:37] I get a lot of satisfaction.....through
service..even if this means suffering and all that
[04:37] Do you get on better with people? Do you
understand more of what they want?
[04:37] a lot better...with God's help
[04:37] yes
[04:37] Do you find that there are kinds of people
you can't get on with, as a result of your faith?
[04:37] Ie, have you lost contact with some kinds
of people as a result?
[04:38] although I am still a sinner...we are
all...I can see my error pretty clearly..and work from
there.
[04:38] yes
[04:38] my family somewhat
[04:38] I was raised pretty atheist
[04:38] Mmmm.
[04:38] they don't have much to do with me anymore
[04:38] saddly
[04:38] Do you see those people as less important
to you than the people you can get on with?
[04:38] of course...they livfe all over this
globe...so that makes it a wee hard.
[04:38] not at all....
[04:38] my family is very important to me.
[04:39] and I want the best for everyone...including
you of course....even though we have never met and
neveer will.
[04:39] I would guess anayway
[04:39] What is your vision for interacting with
these people, then?
[04:39] to give them what I have
[04:39] and to be a friend
[04:39] What do you want to learn, to help you
communicate?
[04:39] and to help them if I can
[04:40] how to reach differnt types of people
[04:40] and not to offend then when I am trying
to help them
[04:40] to make clear my intentions....
[04:40] What is it you lack at the moment?
[04:40] to be the best witness I can to my Lord.
[04:40] everything
[04:41] can I be more specific....ok
[04:41] I am always trying to improve my faith
[04:41] I mean: with regard to your relationships
with people you'd like to be closer to.
[04:41] to have a stronger relationship with
God....
[04:41] through Christ
[04:41] ok
[04:41] maybe I lack patience sometimes
[04:42] I lack understanding too
[04:42] You're the first Christian I've spoken
to who's ever said that.
[04:42] hmmmm......
[04:43] Mmm. I mean, the first strongly committed
evangelist who's ever said that.
[04:43] Let me ask another question.
[04:43] ok
[04:43] Do you distrust the love of people who
don't share your faith?
[04:43] admitting how little you know is the
first step I tink
[04:43] no.
[04:43] how so
[04:43] ?
[04:43] distrust in what sense?
[04:44] In the sense of, are you capable of receiving
love from people who are not Christians with the same
open-heartedness that you receive love from people
who are?
[04:44]
