#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/22/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/22/96
[00:11] SuperFix (Bjohns7764@www-62-100.gnn.com) joined
[00:11] Have you asked Him to save you?
[00:11] The bible says it is a gift by faith,
and that all things are lawful for us as Christians...but
[00:12] See, Licea, I'm back.
[00:12] Salvation comes through putting your
faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the
[00:12] Hello Superfix.
[00:12] But then it says that liars, fornicators,
drunkards, etc...shall have no part in the kingdom
[00:12] We didn't mean to offend you.
[00:13] Hi Super! Glad you are back
[00:13] If one is a true believer, they will
not be any of those things.
[00:13] Oh, Jub, yes, I have asked Jesus into
[00:13] No problem, if it's a forum and not
[00:13] Actually, I think Christians lie & stuff.
[00:13] Well, I can't promise not to be preachy...
sometimes I just can't help it.
[00:14] But you are welcome to butt in any
[00:14] 1John 1:8-9 says we do.
[00:14] Ok. Let me ask.... are Jews doomed
[00:14] We all sin in one way or another on a
[00:14] It also says that we get cleansed
when we confess it.
[00:14] Super, are you a Christian?
[00:15] And I think that just because someone
drinks occasionally, they are not necessarily a drunkard
[00:15] More or less.
[00:15] Agnostic, is more accurate.
[00:15] Licea, there is a difference between
fellowship with God and relationship with God
[00:15] Fellowship is broken when we sin.
[00:15] I don't know if Jews go to hell or not.
Obviously some do
[00:16] Relationship lasts as long as we have
faith in Jesus as our savior.
[00:16] But I have read the Bible cover to
cover more than once.
[00:16] Boy, then fellowship is broken constantly
all day every day
[00:16] Super, the only way for a Jew to go
to heaven is by the way that Paul preached.
[00:16] That's what I meant. Jews don't believe
[00:16] That is pretty much true, Licea.
[00:17] What is agnostic?
[00:17] Nor Hindus.
[00:17] 1John 1:8 says,"If we say we have no
sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
[00:17] An agnostic means "my mind is open
on the subject".
[00:17] So we must rely on Christ's total atonement
on the cross to remove our daily sin.
[00:17] The next verse says, "if we confess
our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive us of
our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
[00:18] brentf (email@example.com) joined
[00:18] Yes, in order to maintain fellowship
[00:18] Sometimes you just can't remember them
all to confess them
[00:18] Ask the Holy Spirit to bring them
to remembrance. :-)
[00:18] He will.
[00:19] Another question. Anyone know who
wrote the books of the Gospel? Not their names.
[00:19] I don't try to confess every sin every
day. I usually just say, "Father, forgive me for my
[00:19] I confess that I have sinned and ask
Him to show me any specific sins that He would like
for me to deal with.
[00:19] Well, Super, Athiests are looking for
logic. God is not logical. I think that's why athiests
hate Christianity so. At least you are open to hearing
[00:20] I'm glad you're not athiest
[00:20] Superfix, I believe they were written
by the ones who's names they bear.
[00:20] God is not logical???
[00:20] Oh, brent, what I mean is...
[00:21] Actually, the books were written up
to 100 years after Jesus was crucified.
[00:21] God IS logical, just not to our feeble
human minds sometimes
[00:21] Brent, there is no need to argue with
Licea. Have some mercy on her. :-)
[00:21] Ahhh ... I agree, we do not always understand
the logic of God
[00:21] Superfix has been wanting to talk
to someone, Brent.
[00:21] We cannot comprehend His ways with our
[00:21] No, go ahead.
[00:22] Super...you like to debate?
[00:22] Super, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John
wrote the gospels under the inspiration of the Holy
[00:22] I'm just looking for answers to questions
in general. Yeah, I like to debate sometimes.
[00:23] Licea, did you understand the difference
between fellowship and Relationship?
[00:23] #bible is a good place for forums like
that. They are always debating
[00:23] Sorry, SuperFix, I think we're in agreement
that God is indeed, logical. As for when the gospels
were written, I believe the last of them (John?) was
written about 70AD, well within the lifetime of the
[00:23] Right. That's a correct answer. Just
not the apostles.
[00:24] How long after Jesus death was John
[00:24] I think pretty soon after.
[00:24] God is very logical, but not always to
the human mind. Our minds are like ants compared to
[00:24] It doesn't really matter, Super.
[00:24] The Bible does not say, and I don't
have my commentaries in my work office.
[00:25] Sorry, that was addressed to Superfix.
[00:25] John the baptist was beheaded. Not John
the apostle. Right?
[00:25] What matters is the fact that Jerusalem
was destroyed around 70 AD and the gospels had to have
been finished by then.
[00:25] Or was He?
[00:25] Licea, good point. What was I thinking?
[00:25] I thought he was crucified upside down
[00:25] John the apostle died on the island
[00:26] CONEXION (CONEXION@www-25-127.gnn.com) joined
[00:26] Licea: That was Peter.
[00:26] Peter was crucified upside down.
[00:26] oops. How did John die?
[00:26] Hi conexion
[00:27] The apostle John died of old age, I
[00:27] History says they tried to boil him
in oil and it didn't kill him. :-)
[00:27] What history?
[00:27] So, they banished him to the island
[00:27] Are you serious???
[00:28] Levis2 (firstname.lastname@example.org) left #apologetics.
[00:28] Is this page dedicated to answering
and discussing issues like CRI Does on the radio?
[00:28] My earlier point about Jews was that,
according to Christianaty, only a Christian
[00:28] The oil part may be a little embellished...
it is definitely not scripture. But the part about
Patmos is definitely sound.
[00:28] can get to heaven.
[00:28] CRI is cool
[00:28] I don't believe it for a moment.
[00:29] It's good to know the company you
keep Licea. I Agree.
[00:29] Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation
in any other, for there is no other name under heaven
given among men whereby we must be saved.
[00:29] Yes Super. Jews must accept Jesus like
[00:29] CONEXION (CONEXION@www-25-127.gnn.com) left
[00:30] Jesus is the way, the truth, and the
life, NO ONE goes to the father but by Him
[00:30] How shall they escape if they neglect
so great salvation?
[00:30] That kind of thinking has a lot to
do with why I'm an agnostic.
[00:30] Is it Life or Light? I don't have my
[00:30] Why would God send His Son to die
on a cross and then let everyone do their own thing
to get to heaven?
[00:30] Either way, Jesus is the only way
[00:31] It doesn't make sense.
[00:31] If that was the case, then Jesus died
[00:31] I also don't buy the bit about why
God sent Jesus to be crucified.
[00:32] It was God's good pleasure to give such
knowledge to babes
[00:32] So, why do you think Jesus came Super?
[00:32] I think he came to show the world
true right from wrong.
[00:32] And that's all?
[00:32] Not the heaven thing.
[00:33] If that was the case, then He didn't
do a very good job of it.
[00:33] Because, He claimed that He came to
die for sinful man.
[00:33] Nobody said he did do a good job.
[00:34] If He only came to show us the way,
then He lied and showed us the wrong way.
[00:34] Nonsense, Super.
[00:34] The gospels claim he did a perfect
[00:34] But think about what the "original
sin" was, and the fact that God didn't have
[00:34] the power to forgive it.
[00:34] Think about what the original punishment
for sin was and man didn't have the power to pay it.
[00:35] So, thousands of years later, he set
Jesus up as a sacrifice.
[00:35] In the day that you eat of the fruit...
you shall surely die?
[00:35] That was the punishment.
[00:35] They died spiritually that day.
[00:35] For God so loved the world, he gave his
only begotten son, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL
NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. That is why
[00:35] Jesus came and paid the price for
[00:35] Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and
come short of the glory of God.
[00:36] Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is
death, but the gift of God is eternal life through
Jesus Christ our Lord.
[00:36] The "original sin" was disobedience
[00:36] The wages of sin has never changed.
[00:36] The wages of sin has never changed.
[00:36] It is still death.
[00:36] Whimbrel (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[00:36] And Jesus paid the price for YOU!
[00:36] He loves you so!
[00:37] Jesus is part of the Godhead so he had
a say in what was to come I'm sure
[00:37] Then what does 1 Cor. 5:10 mean?
[00:37] And almighty God didn't have the power
to handle the problem without Jesus death?
[00:37] Jesus is Almighty God
[00:37] Almighty God did handle it.
[00:37] In due time.
[00:38] "Where is it first said in the Bible
"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"?
[00:38] Psalm something
[00:39] Psalm 22. Why did Jesus say it.
[00:39] For a couple of reasons
[00:39] Because his messianic plans lay in
[00:39] First, to fulfill prophecy
[00:40] Second, because He bore the sin of
mankind on his own body on the cross.
[00:40] Heavy, but too complicated.
[00:40] he failed, he died, he wasnt the meshiach
[00:40] All we like sheep have gone astray,
we have turned every man to his own way, and God hath
laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[00:40] He was a Jew. He was simply saying
a prayer. The 22nd Psalm.
[00:40] Acolyte (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[00:40] Qoheleth (email@example.com) joined
[00:40] He rose again, 3 days later.
[00:40] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org
[00:41] Because at the point that all the sin
was placed on Jesus, God turned away from him at that
moment because he can't stand sin
[00:41] shepp (email@example.com) joined
[00:41] That proved that he was indeed the
[00:41] Jesus has fulfilled all the messianic
prophecies except 2 still to come
[00:41] He was simply reciting a prayer.
He didn't lose faith!
[00:41] SuperFix: Because God the Father could
not look on the sin which ha asked His Son to bear
for us. For the first (and only) time in Jesus human
experience, He was out of contact with the Father.
[00:42] shepp (firstname.lastname@example.org) left
[00:42] Super, you have obviously never read
Psalm 22 in its entirety and compared it's fulfillments
to the life of Christ if you believe it was only a
[00:42] Do you know how they prayed in those
[00:42] The first sentence aloud, the rest
[00:42] Jesus taught his disciples how to
[00:43] The same way they do today. Jews are
sticklers for tradition
[00:43] the early Christians prayed liturgically
[00:43] Oh... silent prayer...
[00:43] Where does the Bible say to give SILENT
[00:43] What is the first sentence of the
[00:43] licea Iguess St paul was too
[00:43] Action: Acolyte has work to do
[00:43] They prayed many ways in those days,
just as we do today. Sometimes by quoting scriptures,
sometimes by singing, sometimes extemporaneously.
[00:44] bye Aco :)
[00:44] QED (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[00:44] No acolyte, in some things maybe, but
he accepted Jesus very against Jewish tradition!
[00:44] I agree. Too much meaning is put
on what Jesus said on th ecross.
[00:44] Licea the early Church hd traditions
too, Read 2thess 2:15
[00:45] ZenRookie (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[00:45] ZenRookie (email@example.com)
[00:45] I also don't know why, when discussing
the Bible, all those thees and thous.
[00:45] SuperFix: More than once, when Jesus
quoted scripture, it was during the act of fulfilling
the prophecy of that scripture.
[00:45] Jesus didn;t talk that way and neither
do we today.
[00:46] I'm not downing Jews. I love the Jewish
people. But religious tradition that conflicts with
scripture must be abandoned whether catholic, protestant,
[00:46] superfix they did 500 yrs ago, which
is whent the translatin was done
[00:46] Sometime Jesus quoted scripture incorrectly
[00:46] Licea th Bible says that th written
[00:46] Yeah, but Jesus nor you nor I lived
in the days of King James.
[00:47] Superfix so?
[00:47] superfix speak greek? don't think so
[00:47] Super, that is King James modern day
speech. We dont live in King James day so we have
modern translations without thees and thous
[00:47] There you go.
[00:47] SuperFix: And I don't speak in King
James English, either. But I can read it, just as
I can read and understand Shakespeare,.
[00:47] Mode change '+o brentf ' by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org
[00:47] Do you understand shakespere?
[00:48] superfix yes
[00:48] Super: sometimes :)
[00:48] I can't understand Shakespeare nor King
James!!! Thank God for new KJ and NIV
[00:48] What was meant in McBeth by "are you
[00:48] Allos (Jesuswept@cs1-03.con.ptd.net) joined
[00:49] Hi allos
[00:49] hello all
[00:49] topic of discussion?
[00:49] gotta go dowork
[00:49] Dominus vobiscum
[00:49] What was Hamlet talking about with
"to be or not to be"?
[00:49] bye acolyte
[00:50] Action: Jubilant sez... bye to Acolyte! Jubilant
warmly shakes Acolyte's hand; lightly pats Acolyte
on the back: and says, "I'll see you next time!" :-)
[00:50] And I have to get some sleep ... was
up too late chatting last night :(
[00:50] allos, different things
[00:50] Acolyte (email@example.com) left
[00:50] bye brent...don't get so jumpy next time
[00:51] Traditions with conflict with scripture
should be abandoned?
[00:51] The problem with quoting scripture
is that it's out of context.
[00:51] Boy Whimbrel, where have you been? That
was a long time ago!
[00:51] Not if it is a summation
[00:51] the problem with quoting scripture is
that scripture is wrong
[00:51] Good night, Acolyte :) Catch ya next
time. You too, Jubilant. SuperFix ... keep asking
questions, start listening to the answers :)
[00:52] Not if it is a key verse which sums
up all that has been said
[00:52] Topic changed by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org:
The Home of Rational Theism
[00:52] Or a misquote to make an improper
[00:52] Action: Allos bows to logos
[00:52] oops wrong channel
[00:52] Which Jewish trad. conflict with scripture?
[00:53] I started reading Shakespere when
I was 12 so I could understand the
[00:53] brentf (email@example.com) left
irc: God IS Logic
[00:53] language of the Bible. Tough.
[00:53] Wimb, I guess the jewish tradition
of not believing in Christ.
[00:54] What do you beliveing in Christ?
[00:54] Action: Jubilant doesn't really want to get
into Jewish tradition tonight...
[00:54] I'm not talking about Jews, I'm talking
about religions in general. I don't know what traditions
exactly, but wasn't it the pharisees who were told
they made the word of God null and void by their traditions?
[00:54] Ok. Don't.
[00:54] Jews belive in a messiah
[00:54] but if you insist I will follow you.
[00:55] Yes, Licea
[00:55] christ was a messiah..so why didnt they
[00:55] You are correct.
[00:55] They just don't believe Jesus is it
[00:55] Yeah, a messiah. Not Jesus, and not
[00:55] Qoheleth (firstname.lastname@example.org) left #Apologetics.
[00:55] Which Jews are you talking about.
[00:55] I know a number of Jewish Christians...
[00:55] some belived he was, so?
[00:55] All jews.
[00:56] could it have been the jesus had the
possibility to upset jewish rule?
[00:56] They didn't believe in the one who came
in the father's name. Yet one will come in his own
name and him they will receive
[00:56] A Jew who believes the Messiah has
[00:56] There are alot of Christian Jews
[00:57] A Jew who believes in Jesus is a completed
[00:57] There were Pharisees who belived Jesus
was the messiah
[00:57] I don't think so, Tim.
[00:57] there were hundreds of messiah's around
[00:57] Whimbrel, the Apostle Paul was one.
[00:57] QED (email@example.com) left irc: Write
error to QED[osip90.ionet.net], closing link
[00:57] Yeah, Joseph of Arimathea was one wasn't
[00:58] Allos, you're right.
[00:58] What does the word messiah mean?
[00:58] None of the others rose from the dead
3 days later.