[ref001]
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/24/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/24/96
[01:15] Mode change '+b *!*kntr@*.cc.ukans.edu ' by
lugen!lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com
[01:15] iggie!ikntr@falcon.cc.ukans.edu kicked by lugen!lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com:
lugen
[01:15] bye bye iggie
[01:16] i guess lugen you don't like him? censorship
is quite christian..
[01:16] `Skept (skept@h-adamant.ekx.infi.net) joined
#apologetics.
[01:16] then go to faith
[01:16] <`Skept> hi
[01:16] yo
[01:16] hey skept
[01:16] <`Skept> lo
[01:16] !niv heb 11 1
[01:16] Action: Jubilant says, "Hello, `Skept!" :-)
[01:16] <`Skept> lo Jub
[01:17] !niv psalms 137:9
[01:17] I'm back...
[01:17] :(
[01:17] My sister was on the phone.
[01:18] i was also talind to poseidon: he said
the water's quite polluted
[01:18] Atheist: I warned him about his language,
kicked him, and he still persisted. I gave him ample
time to consider the consiquences of his actions
[01:18] so he's banned now
[01:18] Poor iggie...
[01:18] lugen get real, he didn't cuss more
than twice at most: you're just too christian
[01:18] In all honesty, I would like someone
who actually seems to know about the channel to define
for me what apologetics is...
[01:18] Hebrews 11:1 To have faith is to be
sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the
things we cannot see.
[01:18] (TEV)
[01:19] then i have faith in zeus and faries
[01:19] fairies rather!
[01:19] ...just a paraphrased definition would
do
[01:19] Atheist, then you don't have a rational
faith.
[01:19] !niv hosea 1:2
[01:19] Atheist: that is not a point for debate,
that is a statement of fact.
[01:19] Atheist: Beats NOT believing in God.
:)
[01:19] neither does paisano dudes/l wake up
[01:20] Jubilant: If it were ever argued rationally
that God did not exist, would you believe it?
[01:20] huh? zeus is just as retarded as jesus
dued: get a life
[01:20] Atheist: I bet you believe in evolution
too. :):)
[01:20] T/O, if it could be proven I would
believe it.
[01:20] TrueOne: it cannot be done, moot point
[01:21] that's right boy, what you think i
believe we came from the chinese cosmic egg?
[01:21] But, you came to late to even discuss
it because I know that He does exist. I talked to
Him this morning.
[01:21] lugen: Amen!
[01:21] Okay, I respect Jubilant a bit more...
and I see lugen as being just that much more biased
[01:21] lugen: That wasn't a moot point...
it's the whole purpose of this channel...
[01:21] Jubilant: Grin.
[01:21] i talked to sant this morning too:
he said I should keep believing in zue because that's
where all morality comes from
[01:22] ...if you cannot say that you would
believe a rational argument, IF it existed, that god
doesn't exist,
[01:22] Atheist: Where do you think you came
from?
[01:22] ...then you cannot claim that your
belief in god is rational.
[01:22] Hebrews 11:1 To have faith is to be
sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the
things we cannot see. (TEV)
[01:22] Atheist, perhaps you need to see a
shrink.
[01:22] my aprents' dna, i bet you came from
zeus?
[01:22] Jong (mymail@di
alup66d.mnl.sequel.net) joined #apologetics.
[01:22] ...you have an easy out--all you have
to do is say "yes, IF it were"... I would challenge you
to be honest about it though
[01:22] no, i think jesus needed to see a shrink
[01:22] Action: Jubilant says, "Hello, Jong!" :-)
[01:23] lo
[01:23] True: 1) I do not believe in "proofs" with
respect to existence; 2) all of metaphsics is based
on faith; 3) as I've already indicated, people see
what they want to see, nothing more, nothing less
[01:23] Atheist, I am glad to see that you
accept the validity of an historical Jesus.
[01:23] Atheist: Calm down; your spelling/typing
will improve. Where did your parents and their parents
come from?
[01:23] :) no i don't i'm funny,. but jesus
never existed
[01:24] parents from their parents to homo
erectus to homo habilis...etc...
[01:24] lugen: I've just one point to make--I
am quite sure that this channel--apologetics--is meant
to rationally argue Christianity
[01:24] 'cuse me.... do you kick people who do
not believe in 'rational theism'?
[01:24] why nt belif in zeu trueone?
[01:24] Atheist, you seem to be making some
very misleading statements about your beliefs.
[01:24] they kicked iggie
[01:24] excuse me then: enough funny stuff
[01:24] TrueOne: Can you be honest? I suspect
Romans 1:18-20 proves you canNOT be honest because
in your heart of hearts you DO KNOW that God exists,
you are just NOT prepared to give him honor and thanks.
[01:25] Jong, yes and we stomp on them real
hard too!
[01:25] TrueOne: Rational argument can imply
many things, not just proof
[01:25] SlackJaw (jchow@pm1-1.starlink.com) joined
#apologetics.
[01:25] Paisano: But honesty is what led me
to be an atheist in the first place
[01:25] Not
[01:25] hey slack
[01:25] ...before that, I was a born again
Christian
[01:25] Then should I just lurk and not voice
out my opinions?
[01:25] atheist: Let's boil it down. Where
did the FIRST molecule come from?
[01:26] molecules are mad up of atoms
[01:26] re Slack!
[01:26] ...the bible says "Ask and it shall
be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it
shall be opened unto you"...
[01:26] T/O, so do you think that Christianity
is cheating people into being honest?
[01:26] TrueOne: Atheism is an oxymoron.
[01:26] paul was an advocate of lying actually
[01:26] True: I guess that applies to about
everything but proof
[01:26] ...so, if I were asking, seeking, et
al, like I was doing... like I AM doing... then, if
Xianity is right, the bible promises that I'll find
the answers
[01:26] Atheist: Your delusion is self-imposed.
[01:26] actually christinsanity is: loving
god
[01:27] pa: judge not lest ye be judged
[01:27] Atheist, you are taking that passage
out of its context.
[01:27] TrueOne: the Bible is a book of Proclimation,
not one of argumentation
[01:27] no i'm not
[01:27] There are types of judgement that
are forbidden and other types which are commaned.
[01:27] Action: SlackJaw sometimes wishes he had a
"Harvey" to worship...a "Harvey" that would save him from
mere death and cure his fears of non-existance
[01:27] garbage lugen paul said the bible can
be used for rebuking and proving
[01:28] commanded
[01:28] er, so, the bible proclaims then that
I willfind the answer... so?
[01:28] wrong
[01:28] TrueOne: You will find the answers
IF you are seeking with an honest heart. But, make
no mistake about this, you will someday know for sure
when you face your creator. Pray that by then he has
been merciful to you and given you
faith.
[01:28] Paisano: I seek with the most honest
of hearts...
[01:28] Action: Atheist paisano's right! pray to your
creator! but which one? zeus, shiva, jehovah, allah!
so many choices!
[01:29] Paisano: are you saying that God is vengeful?
[01:29] ...I was even a "deist" praying to "whichever
god was out there that REALLY was the true god", before
becoming atheist
[01:29] Jong: It would make NO difference
what I said, it only matters what God has said.
[01:30] humans naturally need to have some
sort of savior to cure their ills, and coax them when
they are afraid...it is primal instinct
[01:30] Paisano: Then how do I know truly what
God has said? Isnt it true that the Angels and the
Devil speak the same language?
[01:30] ...so here I am... honesty and all...
seeking truth... atheistic
[01:30] this is boring
[01:31] Atheist (atheist@exp5.wam.umd.edu) left irc:
Leaving
[01:31] Slack: That's a good point, but it
doesn't really favor either side
[01:31] ...we could just be believing in god
because we are programmed that way by nature... or
by god
[01:31] True: what kind of answers are you looking
for??
[01:31] True: I never said I was on a side
[01:32] Paisano: Given the cunning of the devil,
how can I, a mere mortal, know which is the true word?
[01:32] "For God loved the world so much that
he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes
in him may not die but have eternal life. For God
did not send his Son into the world to be its judge,
but to be its sav
ior. Whoever believes in the Son is not judged; but
whoever does not believe has already been judged, because
he has not believed in God's only Son." John 3:16-18
(TEV)
[01:32] Jong: We are NOT defenseless; we have
the Holy Spirit as our guide and comforter.
[01:32] lugen: I seek truth... what is true
is more important to me than what I was raised to believe...
[01:33] SlackJaw (jchow@pm1-1.starlink.com) left #apologetics.
[01:33] ...if the two were the same, it would
have been great
[01:33] TrueOne: what is truth?
[01:33] Paisano: How do I recognize the will of
the Holy Spirit? I base it on my conscience?
[01:33] Action: Jubilant sez... an insane learner learns
strange things.
[01:33] Many things are true, lugen...
[01:33] steck (aduran@apolo2-a16.racsa.co.cr) joined
#apologetics.
[01:33] Jong: The Holy Spirit is also our
guarantee that God will keep his promises and give
us eternal life.
[01:33] ...but many things are false too :)
[01:33] Jong: Your conscience is worthless
if it is not informed by the Holy Spirit.
[01:34] Paisano: How do I recognize the will of
the Holy Spirit?
[01:34] Here's something I wrote about truth...
it will help you understand my views a bit more
[01:34] TrueOne: How did life begin? Where
do we come from?
[01:35] TrueOne: How was the universe begin?
How did it get here?
[01:35] Jesus is the life... for ever
[01:35] Jong: Without Christ IN your life,
there is no way you can receive the Holy Spirit. Without
the Holy Spirit, you cannot understand spiritual things.
[01:36] erm
[01:36] Paisano: you speak of Christ as if he
is someone we could recognize without err
[01:36] brb... emailing :)
[01:37] I'm agree, Paisano
[01:37] steck: True. "Jesus answered him,
'I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes
to the Father except by me.'" John 14:6 (TEV)
[01:37] Enlighten me: How do I know that you,
Paisano, is not the devil himself speaking?
[01:38] Jong: First, do you know God's Word?
It contains the words of life and it provides us constant
hope. You are wise not to take any man's word about
God; compare what you are told against scripture.
It is the touchstone.
[01:38] The devil is at the hell...
[01:39] Jong: Jesus said his sheep know his
voice; they will not listen to another.
[01:40] Jong: Jesus is the good shepherd; he
will not abandon his sheep.
[01:40] Paisano: But the devil has such cunning
that It could mislead the sheep
[01:41] Jong: That is NOT possible; his sheep
will listen to no other.
[01:41] Action: Jubilant says The Origin of Species
is a fairy tale for adults...
[01:41] Paisano: And if the sheep know the shepherd's
voice, why are have so many sheep been mislead so far,
to suffer damnation as God promised?
[01:42] Jubilant: Agreed; the emperor has
NO CLOTHES. :)
[01:42] Render (not@kato-ip-80.theramp.net) joined
#apologetics.
[01:42] Chiara (watson@ppp12.prcn.org) joined #apologetics.
[01:42] I am So sorry.
[01:42] Jong: God knows how to keep the lost
lost and to keep the saved saved.
[01:42] God fucked my ass.
[01:42] Action: Jubilant says, "The survival of the
fittest presupposes the arrival of the fit."
[01:43] Mode change '+b *!*not@*.theramp.net ' by lugen!lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com
[01:43] Render!not@kato-ip-80.theramp.net kicked by
lugen!lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com: lugen
[01:44] lugen (lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com) left irc:
changing servers
[01:44] lugen (lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com) joined
#apologetics.
[01:44] GOD BLESS ALL YOU!
[01:44] CTCP PING: 832830287 from lugen (lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com)
to #apologetics
[01:44] I'm on the rock... Jesus.
[01:45] much better
[01:45] Paisano: Even Judas has been had by the
devil
[01:45] Chiara (watson@ppp12.prcn.org) left irc: Ping
timeout for Chiara[ppp12.prcn.org]
[01:45] islander1 (none@dialup95.aloha.com) joined
#apologetics.
[01:46] islander1 (none@dialup95.aloha.com) left #apologetics.
[01:46] Am I lagged?
[01:46] Action: Jubilant says... 51% of being smart
is knowing what you are dumb at!
[01:48] Alright... it has been sent
[01:49] Jong: Judas made his own choice; he
was chosen to fulfill prophesy and to achieve the purposes
of God.
[01:50] Paisano: Judas' choice was wrong? And
hence he is damned for eternity?
[01:50] Jong: Don't worry about Judas; worry
about yourself. I am confident he would tell you likewise.
[01:51] Paisano: I am afraid the same rules apply
[01:52] What rules Jong?
[01:52] Paisano: That if I made the wrong choice,
I would suffer eternal damnation.
[01:53] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu:
The Home of Rational Theism
[01:53] That the ops die! Ja ja ja : )
[01:53] soon1
[01:53] Jong: That's life; full of choices
... humble yourself and ask God for help. He will
not let you down even though you and I let him down
far more than we should.
[01:54] apolobot is a louger
[01:54] W too...
[01:55] W is gay
[01:55] Paisano: How would I know that I have
let God down?
[01:56] APOLOBOT MAKING LOVE A W
[01:56] W has just dated X yesterday, and the're
both gay, steck
[01:56] QED (pch1@osip92.ionet.net) joined #apologetics.
[01:56] OPS...
[01:56] Sheesh...
[01:56] Xinyang (WDYT@castles79.castles.com) joined
#apologetics.
[01:57] Jong: The Holy Spirit will CONVICT
you if you sincerely trying to serve Jesus Christ your
king.
[01:57] qED FUCK YOU
[01:57] xINYANG TOO
[01:57] steck: Please KNOCK it off. Thanks.
[01:57] why me
[01:57] You are very gay
[01:58] Paisano: How do I know what pleases God
and what doesnt? Does God really require pleasing?
[01:58] Jong fuck you too
[01:58] steck please watch your language
[01:58] steck: I just had one, thank you.
[01:59] very lovable.
[01:59] XinYang!!!!!!
[01:59] steck; problems?
[01:59] Jong: He does need anything we have.
He does NOT need our praise; he can command the rocks
to give him all the praise he might want. We need
God. Period.
[01:59] hello jong
[01:59] steck: If you're looking for punishment...
try #bdsm or #wasteland or some other netsex channel
[01:59] Paisano: Then why do we have to please
him at all?
[02:00] #wasteland is known for it's sadism
:)
[02:00] Paisano: You mean we were created to please
God, else suffer eternal damnation?
[02:00] Action: QED prescribes diazepam for steck:
10mg t.i.d.
[02:01] Jong: Watch out... they'll pull the
"we cannot possibly know God's perfect plan" on you in
a heartbeat
[02:01] Action: Jong prescribes a large rubber prophylactic
stuck in steck's nose.
[02:02] TrueOne: God's perfect plan includes eternal
damnation?
[02:02] steck: You're only going to mildly
offend a few Xians here, who will then ignore you,
and then you'll have no more fun
[02:02] Will going to he hell all.
[02:02] The hell is the better.
[02:02] Jong: Sure... and it's quite benevolent
in ways we cannot comprehend
[02:02] steck is a juvenile, I tell you
[02:02] nops
[02:02] jong is a juvenile. yeah
[02:03] Hmmm... benevolent eternal damnation...
[02:03] Jong: Get real. What answers do you
have now? Zip. You will NEVER understand the ways
of God or understand spiritual things UNTIL and UNLESS
you humble yourself and repent of your sinful ways
and accept Jesus Christ as your L
ord and Savior. At that point you will be given the
gift of the Holy Spirit who will guide you into all
righteousness.
[02:03] ...it's all perfect, but, of course,
we, especially if we go to hell, will never be able
to comprehend it
[02:03] JOhn fucked his sister
[02:03] I hope steck suffers eternal damnation
[02:03] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial79.fiu.edu) joined #apologetics.
[02:03] With you. YES
[02:03] Paisano: and you claim to understand?
[02:04] Paisano: I'm the one who am seeking
for truth honestly and am an ex-Xian... a living counterexample
to your previous arguments
[02:04] Mode change '+o lugen ' by W!cservice@undernet.org
[02:04] Mode change '+b *!*aduran@*.racsa.co.cr ' by
lugen!lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com
[02:04] steck!aduran@apolo2-a16.racsa.co.cr kicked
by lugen!lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com: lugen
[02:04] who is too :)
[02:04] Thx lugen :)
[02:04] sorry, did not know he was a problem...
was in email
[02:04] hmmmmmmm
[02:05] Jong (mymail@dialup66d.mnl.sequel.net) left
irc: emergency
[02:05] thank you lugen
[02:05] Mode change '+o ProfG ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu
[02:06] Action: ProfG is lagged
[02:06] QED (pch1@osip92.ionet.net) left #apologetics.
[02:08] Mafu (matthew@isaac.biola.edu) joined #apologetics.
[02:08] Mafu (matthew@isaac.biola.edu) left #apologetics.
[02:09] TrueOne: Eph2:10 "...we are God's workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus, to do good works,...."
[02:09] Okay Xinyang...
[02:10] TrueONe: I would not brag if I were
you about your disloyalty and desertion of your savior.
The Word says that one who renounces Christ and turns
his back is like a dog returning to his vomit and a
pig who is bathed but returns
to the mud and wallows. God help you.
[02:12] Paisano: You interpret it as bragging...
I'm only interested in truth... your point you made
before didn't apply ("you will never understand the
ways of god or spiritual things UNTIl and UNLESS you
humble yourse
lf and repent of your sinful ways and accept Jesus
Christ as your Lord and Savior. At that point you
will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit...")
[02:13] ...the reason it didn't apply, is because
I fit the above criteria, but am a counterexample to
the implications...
[02:13] True one: what happened
[02:13] ...it's a moot point... you are simply
arguing "You cannot possibly agree with me unless you
believe in what I believe"
[02:13] why do you no longer believe
[02:13] what do you believe
[02:13] now
[02:14] It's true ... if you can believe it;
get on your knees before your maker and pray that he
would have mercy upon your soul. I can give you nothing
but there is NOTHING that he cannot do for you if you
will humble yourself and sim
ply ask.
[02:14] Christianity post-rationalizes things...
it claims to have the truth, but when faced with opposition,
it modifies itself to where it can still be true...
[02:14] ...that's not scientific. That's one
problem.
[02:14] TrueOne: what do YOU claim?
[02:15] What religion is scientific?
[02:15] ...another problem is that Christianity
viewed objectively has no more value than that of a
number of mutually exclusive religions
[02:15] st_aidan (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) joined
#apologetics.
[02:15] Nick change: st_aidan -> Acolyte
[02:15] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu
[02:15] Acolyte :-)
[02:15] hey profg
[02:15] Mode change '-o lugen ' by lugen!lugen@chardonnay.niagara.com
[02:15] 2 MORE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[02:15] I have found Christianity to be the
truest of them all
[02:15] ...a third problem is that Christianity
is semantically inconsistent...
[02:15] trueone thats funny
[02:16] TrueOne: Christianity post-rationalizes
things... it claims to have the truth, but when faced
with opposition, it modifies itself to where it can
still be true...
[02:16] TrueOne: ...that's not scientific.
That's one problem.
[02:16] Trueone where did you ever get the
idea of consistency apart from God?
[02:16] TrueOne: ...another problem is that Christianity
viewed objectively has no more value than that of a
number of mutually exclusive religions
[02:16] TrueOne: ...a third problem is that Christianity
is semantically inconsistent...
[02:16] for your edification, Acolyte
[02:16] :-)
[02:16] profg that was edification?? ;)
[02:17] budso (budman@client22.sedona.net) joined #apologetics.
[02:17] lol
[02:17] more like mortification?
[02:17] Action: Acolyte notes he gets engaged in 2
more days
[02:17] Action: ProfG offers even more congrats
[02:17] profg ever read C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy?
[02:17] Acolyte: What do you mean, consistency
apart from God?
[02:17] budso :-)
[02:17] brentf (brentf@ip-pdx02-50.teleport.com) joined
#apologetics.
[02:17] Acolyte: no, stuck with Narnia :-)
[02:17] Trueone what do YOU believe?
[02:17] brentf :-)
[02:17] trueone how do you arrive at the idea
of consistency apart from a Theistic paradigm?
[02:17] Xinyang: I'm atheistic
[02:17] Paisano (tony@slip4.dtx.net) left irc: Excess
Flood
[02:17] profg DO YOURSELF a favor and read
it
[02:17] Action: ProfG notes that the #apologetics cavalry
has arrived
[02:17] ProfG :) Good to see ya!
[02:18] and what made you turn away from god
[02:18] Paisano (tony@slip4.dtx.net) joined #apologetics.
[02:18] Hello, Acolyte :)
[02:18] hey brentf
[02:18] hey paisano
[02:18] profg the guy saw the future, lem me
tell ya
[02:18] Acolyte: By examining carefully what
"God" really means and the reasons why people believe
in god
[02:18] Acolyte: I read the Didache.
[02:18] True fien, that is not what I asked
for
[02:18] brentf good
[02:18] ...I would believe in God if presented
with the right evidence
[02:18] trueone how do you arrive at the idea
of consistency apart from a Theistic paradigm?
[02:18] Action: Jubilant asks... Where are we going
and why are we in this handbasket?
[02:19]