THIRD MEETING
                        Tuesday, 11th June, 1974


                         Questions and Answers


  Q1 W1:
  I have read one of the Venerable Acharn's books and came across the
  terms "Cittavimutti" and "Buddhavimutti." What do they mean?

  A:
  "Cittavimutti" is the term generally used for whatever Citta has freed
  itself from the Kilesas and become an Arahant. "Buddhavimutti" is the
  term which is used only in referring to the Citta of the Buddha. They
  both mean that the Citta is pure.


  Q2 W1:
  I have read in a book that there are six consciousnesses (Vinnana),
  that is, contact of the six external sense-objects (Ayatana) with the
  six internal sense-bases (Ayatana), and that there is a seventh
  consciousness. What is this other one?

  A:
  The six consciousnesses are the six external sense-objects coming in
  contact with eyes, ears, nose, etc., and then "knowing" -- in other
  words, one knows that this or that thing has come in contact -- this
  is the characteristic of the Citta. The seventh consciousness is
  "Patisandhi-Vinnana" which does not become aware of anything, but
  takes birth (Patisandhi) [*] in a plane which is high or low, at
  such-and-such a time and place, depending on the causes which lead it
  on which are in the Citta. There is therefore a new birth, or
  re-birth.

        [*] Patisandhi (Vinnana) is that consciousness which leads the
            Citta to re-unite with the Khandas in a new birth (See
            Glossary).


  The Buddha taught us about the six consciousnesses so that we would
  not cling to things which we see and know, and so that we would know
  that they just arise and fall away and that there is no permanent
  essence in them. When we can supervise them, we will be able to see
  the seventh Vinnana more clearly. There is only one form of this
  consciousness, and it is "Eka Vinnana." To make an analogy, it is like
  the trunk of a tree and this is the part that matters when we want to
  make use of a tree. The other six consciousnesses are then like the
  branches and twigs which we cannot make much use of. We should
  therefore keep this in mind and take an interest in contemplating the
  "one Citta" (Eka Citta) which will take birth. One should also try to
  look after the Citta and make it clean, and raise it as high as one
  can in accordance with one's own level which one has gained from doing
  practice.


  Q3 M1:
  Vinnana means "one who knows" and Patisandhi-Vinnana means the Citta
  which is covered with both wholesomeness and unwholesomeness (Kusala
  and Akusala), and which takes rebirth. Then, to make an analogy, if
  one builds a house, it is better to be interested in the most
  important part of the house rather than the little insignificant
  things outside. Is looking at it in this way correct?

  A:
  That is correct, but one must contemplate the things that are
  connected with the Citta until one understands them, and lets go of
  them. Contemplate them in conjunction with the Citta which is the
  chief -- the important one -- until one understands both those things
  that are small and those that are great. Then contemplate all round in
  all aspects.


  Q4 M2:
  The Citta is the one which knows generally when one thinks over there
  or thinks here, and it brings these things together as Sankharas
  (compounded things) which are Aniccam (impermanent). But yesterday the
  Venerable Acharn said that the Citta exists, that it is permanent.
  Would you please explain more about this?

  A:
  The Citta, generally, of the ordinary man is impermanent, and it is
  permeated with mundane conventions. All things in the world which are
  mundane naturally come under the three characteristics of existence,
  which are impermanence (Aniccam), discontent (Dukkham), and not-self
  (Anatta). The Citta of the ordinary man still comes in this category,
  that is, it must change according to what is wholesome and unwholesome
  which leads to rebirth. The Citta which does not change, which is
  permanent, is the Citta which is pure, which has attained to the state
  of Arahantship. It no longer has impermanence, discontent, and
  not-self permeating it like the Citta of the ordinary man.

  An explanation such as this is theoretical knowledge (Pariyatti), and
  it might lead to endless argument if one has not practised. But going
  on talking about and discussing it will not bring benefit. If one
  practices and comes to see the truth of Dhamma for oneself, reading,
  listening, and discussing leads to understanding. But if that person
  has not practised accordingly it will just go in the direction of
  argument. Because the Dhamma of the Lord Buddha has levels which are
  gross, middle, or subtle and it is better to speak about those things
  which will be valuable.

  What can be obtained from reading and what can be obtained from
  practice are quite different from each other, because remembering what
  one has read is quite different from the truth that has been
  experienced from practice. Even when other people speak of the results
  from their practice it is difficult for one to understand them until
  one has practiced and experienced more with one's heart. Then one's
  doubts will clear up of themselves.


  Q5 M2:
  Is there any way to eradicate anger from oneself?

  A:
  In the Abhidhamma, it is said that anger is the "Dosa root." [*] If I
  explain it to you, you will understand my explanation well enough, but
  actually getting rid of the root of anger is very difficult. One must
  rely on practice as the main thing because extracting the Kilesas must
  be done by means of the truth which comes from true practice. One
  cannot extract them with what comes from one's ability to remember
  what one has learned -- which can be remembered well enough by anybody
  who learns -- for the Kilesas are not afraid of this and they will
  still be there as they were before.

        [*] Dosa = hate. Root (mula) is descriptive of a condition in
                   the Citta which is "planted" by some forms of Kamma
                   in the past.


  Anything which enters and associates with us -- whichever type of
  character we may have from amongst those which people have -- is
  connected with and concerns us from then on. If we practise and try to
  eliminate the Kilesas, then eliminate them we can, for there were and
  are Arahants who were once very angry men. We are common people who
  only know and understand this, but we do not yet have the ability to
  eliminate the root of anger. We must train the Citta to know how bad a
  fault hate (Dosa) is, then it will go by itself. If we try to get rid
  of it by just wanting it to go, we will not succeed. We must depend on
  practice and then we will see results coming steadily, which is called
  the right kind of meditation and suitable for the removal of that kind
  of Kilesa.

  Please understand that the Kilesas are not afraid of only remembering
  their names. Even though we remember everything about them in great
  detail, they still remain Kilesas which govern the hearts of beings in
  the world. They do not think about removing themselves to another
  place, unless one practises meditation (Citta Bhavana) and develops
  mindfulness and wisdom so as to be bold and strong enough to be able
  to drive them out. Then the time comes when they will break and
  scatter from the heart without any doubt, like the Buddha and all his
  disciples who eliminated the Kilesas by means of practice. The methods
  they used have been taught to the world down to the present day.

  I will explain sitting meditation. Why did the Buddha sit cross-
  legged in meditation? If one looks at it only superficially, sitting
  in that position is not very important and one can sit in any position
  that one wants. But if one is going to sit for hours, then one should
  sit cross-legged because the pressure due to the weight of the body
  will be evenly distributed. When it becomes painful, the pain will be
  spread out and it will not be excessively painful in any one spot. If
  one sits for a very long time, then it may become very painful,
  because sitting in meditation is extremely important work for those
  who are determined to get real results and they may sit for a long
  time, even for many hours. If they become too worried or anxious about
  their bodies, then the Citta will be weak. This will be dependent on
  the Dukkha of the body.

  It is important to make the Citta one's goal. Let the Citta do the
  work that is set for it, and have mindfulness in control of the Citta
  while meditating so that it does not wander outside thinking about
  this or that. The Citta which is always controlled by mindfulness will
  remain with oneself. It will be calm and will be clearly aware. The
  more one has mindfulness with the Citta, however good it may be, the
  clearer the Citta will be. One must therefore not allow the Citta to
  wander, or to be distracted.


  Q6 M3:
  A meditation teacher by the name of Alakamala has said that if we fix
  the Citta into a thing, we cannot attain to Vimutti. Why is this?

  A:
  Because things are things, not Vimutti. How can the Citta then reach
  Vimutti? We contemplate things not to get them, but to know them and
  to let go of them.

  Concerning the Path of the Arahant (Arahattamagga) and Fruition
  (Arahattaphala), and speaking of mindfulness and wisdom as well, if
  one makes use only of mindfulness and does not make use of wisdom, one
  will not get results that are desirable. If one is going to be able to
  eliminate the Kilesas entirely, one must make complete use of
  mindfulness and wisdom -- which are like tools. In making use of
  tools, one must know what to use with what, the way to use them and
  how. There can be a lot of mindfulness it is true, but people are
  deficient in doing what is their duty because they do not use wisdom
  as they ought to. The end result of this is that the full state that
  should arise does not. Being deficient in what is one's duty is not a
  good thing so the result one gets is not complete. Therefore one who
  learns about the Middle Way should always take into consideration what
  is sufficient -- which is appropriate to the name of "Dhamma" -- which
  is the Middle Way (Majjhima) that one has learnt.


  Q7 M3:
  Must we practise meditation to get a balance?

  A:
  Practise meditation and see for yourself what is lacking. One should
  then develop the Five Indriya (faculties): Saddha (faith or
  confidence), Viriya (energy), Sati (mindfulness), Samadhi
  (concentration), and Panna (wisdom) within oneself.

  When light falls on the surface of an object, the top of that object
  is illuminated while its underside is in shadow and dark. Wisdom is
  like the light which can truly penetrate, but what it penetrates is
  the Kilesas which cover the heart, so that there is not any shadow in
  the heart where Kilesas can hide or conceal themselves. This means
  that wisdom is powerful and able to investigate circumspectly
  throughout the darkness of all the Kilesas with ease and confidence
  until the Citta has reached ultimate Vimutti (Liberation).


  Q8 (Ven. Pannavaddho):
  Does this mean that we should carefully examine the five Indriya? If
  wisdom is strong it will penetrate throughout, like a light which
  shines completely through an object from top to bottom so that there
  is no shadow, which is Avijja (Ignorance), left at all. Is that
  correct?

  A:
  Cittavimutti is the completely pure Citta which has no shadow, for it
  is bright in all respects. If there is still some shadow remaining,
  one can call that shadow Avijja. The important thing is, that for the
  Citta to become pure all the Kilesas must be completely eradicated.


  Q9 W2:
  I would like to know what the Citta is?

  A:
  The Citta is "the one who knows." The true Citta has only one
  function, and that is "knowing." The Buddha always said that the
  original true Citta is clear, bright, and resplendent, but that
  Kilesas have become mixed or blended with it and so it follows the way
  of these Kilesas and has become murky. One must rely on mindfulness,
  wisdom, and perseverance to clean the Citta. When the Citta has gone
  beyond the state of clarity and brightness it will be pure, which
  means that it will have attained to the state of Vimutti.

  The word "brightness" (Pabhassara) refers here to the state of Vatta
  Citta [*] which is different from Vivatta Citta. In other words
  Pabhassara is "clarity and brightness," but is not yet the state of
  purity. The brightness which comes from practice is due to the Kilesas
  gathering together in just one spot. When the brightness which is the
  most subtle of the Kilesas has been passed by (overcome) by the
  cleansing process of super-mindfulness (Maha-Sati) and super-wisdom
  (Maha-Panna), then the Citta is pure. [**]

        [*] Vatta Citta -- the Citta in Samsara. Vatta -- the "round" of
            Samsara. Vivatta -- "disentanglement" from Samsara.

        [**] This is, of course, the state of Arahant.


  Q10 M4:
  How does one guard the Citta so as to keep it inside oneself?

  A:
  In wanting to know about the Citta, we must practise meditation to
  make the Citta calm. Wisdom can be made use of both internally and
  externally, but if wisdom is to arise and be astute, the Citta must be
  calm. If the Citta is calm, then we can know the characteristics of
  our own Citta. We should try to maintain the calm of the Citta for as
  long as possible and then we will build a firm basis for ourselves and
  become skilled so that we will be able to make the Citta calm whenever
  we want. The calm Citta will become continually brighter and brighter
  and it will know what Kilesas are present, and will have wisdom to
  eliminate and extract them. The Citta will then become still brighter
  until it can drive out the Kilesas by means of wisdom. This is the
  first step.

  Kilesas are coarse, medium, and subtle and the "knowing" which is
  formed out of these Kilesas is not the real Citta but only the
  characteristics of the Citta. We must use wisdom to follow and remove
  these Kilesas at all three levels and when we have done this until the
  Citta does not change, is not sad, or downhearted, and has none of the
  characteristics of the Citta which is covered by the Kilesas at all,
  this Citta will know that there are no causes left for rebirth in the
  future (Patisandhi). The Citta is then pure and need not take birth
  again.

  The Citta which has the germ of goodness and badness within it can be
  compared to a seed which can grow and which has the germ of life or
  the potential for development in it. This kind of Citta will therefore
  be born, die, and be born again and again according to the causes
  which it has itself made -- good and bad variously. As for the Citta
  which is pure, it is constant (unchanging) and the germ of rebirth is
  no longer present.

  Regardless of whether one believes that after death there is nothing
  more, or that after death there is still something, if the Citta has
  the germs of goodness and badness present in it, it will be born again
  endlessly but if the Citta is pure and has no such germs, it will not
  be born. This is the way of it, but the permanence (unchangingness) of
  the pure Citta is not the same as the world understands "permanence"
  to mean, so there is nobody who can understand the permanence of the
  pure Citta correctly except the Arahants alone.

  The Buddha practised until he saw truly for himself. He did not make
  any wild guesses or just think about it as we do. Therefore the
  Buddha's Dhamma is absolutely correct and we can have absolute
  confidence in it.

  If we cannot yet attain to the level of the pure Citta then we should
  persist in doing what is good so that in whatever way this Citta is
  born it may be a good way. This will lead to development, and is far
  better than clinging to doubt and uncertainty which obstructs our way
  so that we live in vain without gaining anything useful, for it only
  sets up a barrier so that we are swept away or pushed down into the
  mass of the round (Vatta) of Dukkha.


  Q11 M5:
  Must one be born a human being in order to attain Enlightenment?

  A:
  Other beings do not have mindfulness and wisdom. Human beings have a
  lot of mindfulness and wisdom, but they must also have more than a
  normal amount of perseverance and energy before they can be
  enlightened and, therefore, not all human beings will be able to
  attain Enlightenment. Those who are born in the five Pure Abodes of
  the Brahma world will be able to attain the highest level of Dhamma
  with much greater certainty than the majority of human beings. If
  human beings do not make an effort to do good, they are likely to do
  things which bring them to a lower level. There are four groups of
  human beings (which can be compared to four lotuses):

     1. That group of people who are full of good characteristics and
        will soon attain Enlightenment when they get the right method of
        Dhamma.

     2. This second group will come after the first and they will also
        attain Dhamma gradually. They can be compared to those who are
        sick but who will be cured if given the proper medicine.

     3. This third group needs to be taught many many times before
        understanding will occur. They must practise regularly in order
        to be able to attain. If one compares this group to a patient;
        there is a way for him to be cured if he comes by the right
        medicine, and there is a way in which he can die if he is
        careless and likes to eat those things which are harmful to
        himself and which nullify the medicine's cure.

     4. This last group is least in everything that is good. But if it
        is evil they will fight to their last breath without giving up,
        because they are blind to everything so they do not know the
        fear of Dukkha.

  The Citta is like all other things -- trees, children, etc; it needs
  nourishment so that it will grow and develop. The Citta, however, has
  to depend on its owner for the way it is nourished, so it will develop
  accordingly.

                                 * * *


                      THE VENERABLE ACHARN'S TALK


  I am very pleased to be able to come here and answer your questions,
  but I am afraid that my stay here will be rather short, as I cannot
  remain very long due to the many duties which I have waiting for me in
  Thailand. Thailand is about 80 -- 90% Buddhist and I have much to do
  in the way of meeting the people and my followers. It was necessary
  for me to prepare my work about three or four months in advance before
  I could actually come to England, and it is necessary that I return
  home quickly because of the many people waiting there. I am very
  pleased to have been received by our English brothers and sisters and
  I would like to come to England once again, but Aniccam, Dukkham, and
  Anatta make it impossible for us to be sure that we will have the
  opportunity of doing so. I hope that the Dhamma we have discussed here
  today will enable you to get the important "essence" (Sara) which will
  help you in your future practice.

  Ven. Pannavaddho has been in Thailand for twelve years and he speaks
  and understands Thai fluently. During that time I have tried to learn
  English from him, but I never really succeeded in learning it, so I am
  unable to speak to you in English during my stay here. I must have
  Ven. Pannavaddho translate for me.


  Q12 M3:
  The Venerable Acharn has had a chance to see the city of London, to
  see that it is a large and bustling city. I would like to ask if
  people can practise meditation in a city like this?

  A:
  Only the dead cannot practise meditation. As long as we are still
  alive, we will have the opportunity to practise meditation because we
  will have both times when we are busy and times when we are free. We
  are not burdened all the time. In speaking about human cities or
  countries, all of them are cities or countries of people who have
  mouths and stomachs and they have to run about busily finding remedies
  which they want for making up the deficiencies in their bodily well
  being, and there is bound to be restless confusion and milling about
  in the same way everywhere. No matter what house or country one goes
  to they are all running around busily in the same way all over the
  world because making a living compels them to be like this. The only
  place where things are not busy is in a graveyard, the houses of the
  dead, but who would want to live in an un-busy place like that! Even
  animals do not want to go there. Therefore, when we want to live in a
  bustling city like this, we must bear it because necessity forces us
  to do so as we know and see everywhere in the world of men and animals
  with mouths to feed who struggle to survive.


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