SEVENTH MEETING
                        Sunday, 17th June, 1974


                   Tan Acharn gave the following talk

  Today I will give some explanation of Dhamma before answering
  questions. I will not talk for long as I am afraid the translator will
  not be able to remember.

  The word "Sasana" (religion), if its meaning is shown by analogy with
  things in this world, is like clean pure water and the Citta is like
  an object which is in continual use. It will probably come into
  frequent contact with dirty things and so it should be continually
  cleaned and washed, otherwise one should not go on using it anymore.

  The Citta works the whole time, always thinking, speaking and acting.
  Therefore the Citta is important to people and to other beings who
  think and imagine all the time without thinking whether what is good
  or bad is dangerous to themselves or to others who are in any way
  associated with them.

  The Buddhist religion is like water which washes and cleanses the
  Citta keeping it always clean. If this Citta is likened to clothes one
  can say that they are fit to be worn, or if it likened to household
  utensils, they are suitable for use and are not unpleasant. But if
  they are not washed and cleaned constantly they become unfit for use.
  The Citta which is not good is like this.

  The Citta which is regularly washed and trained is likely to be clear,
  clean, calm, cool, and developed in ways appropriate to Dhamma and
  there is nothing in the world which can accept the Dhamma as well as
  the Citta which is a vessel for receiving Dhamma.

  The Lord Buddha practised until his heart was pure, so the Dhamma is
  clean and the heart of the Lord is clean and free from blemish, taint
  or intoxication with the world, so regardless of status or caste he
  taught all equally and Buddhism is therefore not a danger to anyone.
  Like clean water, people of every status and caste can use it and
  nobody dislikes it.

  Buddhism comes from the Lord who was genuinely pure, and the Lord
  Buddha was thus the first "hand" to be clean. The "hands" of the
  Savakas of the Lord Buddha are also clean, so the first "hand" and the
  second "hand" are clean and because the Savaka Sangha had all attained
  purity and Arahantship, the Dhamma which was propagated and taught in
  those days was clean and gave results to those who listened with full
  attention.

  From then on it began to get more and more tainted and the taints were
  connected with those who were associated with the religion. Religion
  thus became a basis for criticism, such that other religions that
  people did not like were seen as being enemies to their own religion.
  Then there arose a liking for this religion and a loathing for that
  one which was not the intention of the religion nor of the founder.

  The founder of every true religion does not want people to spoil its
  harmony, nor to break it up and oppose the religious teaching. They
  taught that people should blend well together and not split up and
  break harmony, for this is a hindrance to the religion. But because
  the heart has the world within it, this world hidden inside has the
  power to make people go according to what is hidden there and the
  religion is therefore a danger to those who dislike it and a boon to
  those who like it.

  Amongst those who believe in different religions there arose conflict
  and disagreement and they looked down on, reviled and despised each
  other's religion. Religion thus became a tool for the two sides to
  quarrel over with dirty hearts which drove them on.

  But the religions remained good because they taught people to be good
  people as accords with their knowledge, ability and good intentions.
  In the same way as we learnt various branches of knowledge at school,
  not all of which came from one teacher, for one taught us this and
  another taught us that, and it is just about impossible that they
  should all have taught exactly the same things. The Lord Buddha taught
  so that people would attain the level of Arahant. An Arahant is one
  who has reached the level of Visuddhi Guna (the quality of purity) --
  he is a pure person and a pure Citta.

  Whatever basic level of development a person has, he can teach to that
  level, but depending also on his inherent ability to teach. The person
  who learns can also receive the teaching to an extent depending on his
  inherent ability to learn. Therefore the extent to which we will be
  able to follow and practise the way of the religion will also depend
  on our own ability, because to go further than the ability of the
  teacher and the ability of the pupil who practises it is almost
  impossible.

  If anyone brings up any of the essential points of Dhamma from the
  subject of today's talk, I will be very glad to explain it in
  accordance with mindfulness and wisdom in a practical way.

  All of us in ourselves variously have hope in our hearts, for we are
  not people who have given up hope, but it does not yet show itself so
  that we may know it in ourselves. Some hopes have already been
  fulfilled, some have not and some have only been partly fulfilled. The
  principles of Dhamma in Buddhism bring people fulfilment of their
  hopes in a way that is complete and satisfactory. There is no need to
  talk of people who have given up hope because they have not decided to
  become good people so they are likely to remain hopeless. Therefore we
  should act and behave in such a way that will always give us hope.
  Hope makes us good people who practise generosity, morality, and
  Bhavana (meditation), and based on this, whether today, tomorrow, this
  life or in future lives we will not be people who have no refuge and
  no support for we have the Dhamma which continues to be with us.

  Normally the heart has good, evil, and neutral things in it and it can
  deteriorate or develop. The wisest people therefore try to train the
  Citta so that they become good people and when it gets difficult they
  will try to be victorious over all bad things so as to take hold of
  Dhamma as their refuge and as the basic principle of their hearts.
  They will then get the hopes of their hearts in full measure in the
  future.

  Any of you who have questions may ask them now, either about Dhamma
  which has been explained today -- or any other day if you wish. The
  hearts of people cannot disappear for they can develop, they can
  deteriorate or they can be made pure and when the Citta has become
  pure, happiness which is not of the type found in this world will be
  found by the one who practises and he will find in himself what kind
  of happiness it is and to what extent also.


                                 * * *

                         Questions and Answers

  Q1 W1:
  Is it true that the Citta is the awareness of right and wrong
  (conscience), and that this Citta dwells in the heart?

  A:
  Yes. It is that normal awareness which is always present, the
  awareness of right and wrong of a person or of an animal (or other
  being accordingly). The Lord said that the Citta dwells in the
  Hadayavatthu (heart base) which is the centre of the body. But one
  should understand that the Citta is Nama Dhamma [*] and it just
  "knows" -- it is not a physical object even though it dwells in the
  Hadayvatthu, so it is not like an egg or a fruit dwelling in a shell.
  Therefore all one can say is that it just dwells there, although the
  meaning of this is difficult for one to imagine or to guess.

        [*] Nama Dhamma -- those factors which make up "Mind." Nama is
            usually paired with Rupa (body) which is the first of the 5
            Khandhas. The remaining four are called the Nama Khandha.



  Q2 M2:
  When sitting in Samadhi and it gets painful, how should one overcome
  this?

  A:
  There are several ways to cure this such as:

    1) It is better to sleep -- to turn and escape into one's pillow as
       one's refuge (Sarana).

    2) When it becomes painful due to sitting, then get up and walk
       Cankama. Thus by changing postures the pain is cured.

    3) As soon as it becomes painful, concentrate on the pain and
       examine it thus: "Where is Dukkha?"; look at the parts of the
       body, the condition of the Citta, and the state of Vedana
       (feeling), until one sees them all equally as they truly are.
       Then the painful feeling will cease entirely, or one will see
       truly that those parts of one's body are Dukkha, but that the
       Citta is not Dukkha. Because of that the Dukkha is not able to
       overpower the Citta, and the Citta being unshakably established,
       the conditions go as far as they can and then give way of
       themselves.

  If you can be confident in yourself that the method of fighting
  against Dukkha by investigating it is the best and highest way, you
  should analyse Dukkha into external and internal. But practising and
  striving in this way is truly very painful -- as though all one's
  bones are breaking apart, or hot as though one is on fire all over.
  One wants to know the extent of one's ability, but one must fight
  before one knows how far one's Citta is able to go.

  One still does not know for sure what Dukkha Vedana really is, whether
  it is Dukkha, the cause of Dukkha (Samudaya), the cessation of Dukkha
  (Nirodha), or the path leading to the cessation of Dukkha (Magga), so
  mindfulness and wisdom must be used to search and think it out, and if
  one can search it out to completion it can quench Dukkha, like burning
  gunpowder which flares up and in a moment it all goes out -- and the
  Citta remains.

  Therefore take up Dukkha Vedana and examine which Dukkha this is at
  the moment when the body breaks up and ceases. In truth Dukkha arises
  and ceases continuously, but that the Citta should die never happens,
  in fact the Citta becomes more and more clear and drops into a state
  of calm beyond one's expectations.

  But those who are afraid of death will get more and more of death.
  Therefore one should take up this Citta Bhavana and practise it. But
  it is a much more difficult thing to do than the ordinary methods of
  the type in which one sleeps at times and wakes up at times which does
  not give results such as one ought to get.


  Q3 M2:
  Can one use this method to cure other problems such as distraction or
  restless thoughts?

  A:
  The Dukkha that arises from pain is Dukkha of the physical body.
  Distraction is Dukkha also, but it is Dukkha which arises from the
  heart because the "Origin of Dukkha" is the cause of it. It can be
  quieted by the method mentioned above and those who practise have done
  this until they have obtained results which are satisfactory.

  Those who want the highest results should not feel repelled by this
  method which can fight the tricks and deceits of the Kilesas better
  than other methods.


  Q4 M2:
  Tanha (craving) is the origin of Dukkha, is it not?

  A:
  In what way is there Dukkha together with Tanha (craving), and in what
  way is there Dukkha without Tanha? One must examine further. In other
  words, just wanting Dukkha to go away is Tanha. But if one wants to
  know the reasons for it, such as: "What is Dukkha? what is its cause?
  How can one get rid of Dukkha?" this is the path -- Magga. Desire in
  the direction of getting free from Dukkha by turning towards the
  search for the way of peace and happiness (Santi -- Sukha) is not
  Tanha but Magga.


  Q3 M3:
  Mindfulness and Samadhi are two steps of the eightfold path and it
  seems that they are the 7th and 8th stages. How are mindfulness and
  Samadhi in the eightfold path different from their use elsewhere?

  A:
  Mindfulness is the one that controls the Citta. Samadhi depends on
  mindfulness to supervise the Citta until the Citta can be set up in
  one place and remain there and a state of calm arises many times. In
  other words, at first it arises as //Khanika Samadhi// -- a moment of
  calm and then it withdraws. Later on the calm becomes a bit deeper,
  which is //Upacara Samadhi// and one must depend on mindfulness to
  retain control //until wisdom comes in to investigate//. Wisdom must
  depend on mindfulness and then one will always be able to contemplate
  all sorts of things; then mindfulness becomes super-mindfulness and
  wisdom becomes super-wisdom. If one has mindfulness to take control,
  the Citta which has faults in it will //depend on mindfulness// to
  protect it and correct the faults in the Citta. If the Citta becomes
  calm and free with none of the Kilesas disturbing it, there is no need
  to cure them at that moment. The Citta will then be absolutely calm
  and this is Appana Samadhi (full absorption). This is the way we talk
  about practice.

  The training is difficult in the beginning for to start with one has
  never done it before, one has never seen what results come from doing
  it, and one must depend on mindfulness to force one to do it, going
  against one's inclinations by using reason to show the need for it.

  But once the results of this begin to appear in one's Citta, interest,
  the will to do it and the effort will all steadily follow. Then the
  more that results appear, whether great or small, the more and more
  strange and unusual, and the effort then comes of itself.

  Those factors of Dhamma which are the means of attaining successful
  results -- being the four Iddhipada (roads to success), including
  Chanda (satisfaction), Viriya (effort or striving), Citta (pleasurable
  absorption or interest), and Vimamsa (careful consideration or
  thought) -- will steadily become stronger until they enable one who
  practises to attain his intended goal without any obstacle being able
  to stop him.


  Q6 W1:
  When one is able to do Samadhi, will the time come when one who
  practises no longer needs to sit in meditation?

  A:
  Before one is able to read one must persevere in learning to spell out
  words and practise writing. When one is going to write the word "you"
  one must spell it out "y-o-u". Then the time comes when one is able to
  write so that when one thinks of the word "you" one can write it
  without having to spell it out. But normally, does someone who can
  read and write then stop reading and writing?

  Training in Samadhi is the same as the above. To begin with one must
  use mindfulness constantly to supervise and force the Citta to do it.
  As he goes on doing it, the one who practises will be successful and
  get various results for himself, and he will gain skill and ability.
  When he practises Samadhi and strives and gets rid of the Kilesas
  until he eventually becomes free from them all, he still goes on doing
  Samadhi, but he no longer strives for freedom from the Kilesas anymore
  because they have already gone.

  When he lies down to rest and sleep he stops, but when he gets up, he
  uses mindfulness and wisdom in all sorts of activities including the
  practice of Samadhi meditation which he continues to do, for he does
  not throw away the work that he has done, in the same way as someone
  who knows about books and is able to read and write a lot. He goes on
  doing this so that it shall be of increasing value in various ways and
  he does not stop just because he is able to read and write. The
  practising of Samadhi meditation by those who have got rid of the
  Kilesas is like this; they must go on doing it for the purpose of
  Vihara Dhamma -- living comfortably in this world where the Dhatu and
  Khandhas (mind and body) live.


  Q7 W1:
  When one's heart is not calm -- please give some advice on how to cure
  this state.

  A:
  Generally, for those who practise, it is like I have already
  explained. One must use effort a great deal until one becomes calm.
  One must also use mindfulness and wisdom to overcome the things which
  are obstructive in whatever way is appropriate to the practice, until
  the one who practises knows for himself that he is in a position to
  get free from them and that he need not be born again, for the Dhamma
  is unbiased [*] and immediately shows results great or small to the
  one who practises truly and steadily.

        [*] Unbiased -- means that the Dhamma takes no account of
            persons, but only of cause and effect.


  The Lord Buddha and the Savakas in the Ti-Pitaka all said that they
  had to force themselves to put forward effort very often before they
  gained Enlightenment. From then up to the time when they each entered
  Parinibbana, //the Buddha and the Savakas still entered Samadhi and
  Nirodha Samapatti//, which was a way for the Citta to dwell
  comfortably "at ease" amongst the Khandhas, which is called "Vihara
  Dhamma" -- Dhamma as a dwelling place -- until the time when the Citta
  departs from the body which cannot last any longer, and enters Nibbana
  which is the ultimate happiness free from trouble of any kind at all.

  When the Lord Buddha was about to enter Parinibbana he entered
  Samadhi. He entered the first Jhana and went up stage by stage to the
  state of Sannavedayitanirodha Samapatti, and then he returned step by
  step back to the first Jhana. Then he entered the first Jhana and went
  up to the fourth Jhana and then attained Parinibbana between the rupa
  Jhanas and the Arupa Jhanas.

  Because the Lord Buddha was able to do and experience the highest
  levels like this, all the Savakas persevered in following his example
  until they succeeded in becoming Arahants after the Lord Buddha. The
  Lord Buddha sought and found Dhamma until he became enlightened, and
  he upheld this as the Dhamma method which he continually taught to his
  followers until the day he entered Nibbana. All of us therefore have
  taken to heart with faith that:

       Buddham Saranam Gacchami -- the Buddha is our refuge;
       Dhammam Saranam Gacchami -- the Dhamma is our refuge;
       Sangham Saranam Gacchami -- the Sangha is our refuge;

  ...continually in our status as Buddhists, and we do not hold anyone
  else as our refuge in a heart-felt way as we do the Buddha, the Dhamma
  and the Sangha, which are the most excellent and supreme.


  Q8 W1:
  Is it true that Vipassana (insight, wisdom) does not attain to Jhana?

  A:
  The Lord Buddha entered "Jhana Samapatti" (Jhana attainment). The
  Savakas strove to clean out the Kilesas until they attained purity and
  became Arahants of four kinds, and the purity which they attained was
  the same and did not differ in being better or worse between the four.
  But their Citta -- each had special qualities in accordance with their
  tendencies of character, like those were praised for the thing in
  which they were the most skilled and capable.

  When the Khandas and Citta had still not separated, they entered
  Samadhi Samapatti in whatever way suited their characters and their
  skills, until they reached the end of their time. "Jhana" is the realm
  which gives the heart a rest, whereas "Vipassana" is the examination
  (contemplation) of the things of nature (Sabhava Dhamma) so as to know
  clearly what is the truth of them and to let go one's attachment for
  them one after another, until one comes to the end of the things that
  one should let go of. Then one reaches purity and freedom from them.

  As to the question whether "Vipassana will lead to Jhana" or not, this
  is the concern of stupid people who speculate in their habitual ways
  of thought and then do not begin to do anything in connection with
  them.


  Q9 W1:
  I do not understand what are the characteristics of entering Jhana.

  A:
  Don't be anxious about Jhana. Jhana is just a by-product of doing the
  practice and one should not let it become an obsession. The aim of
  training oneself in order to cut away the Kilesas so that they are got
  rid from the heart is the thing which one should be most interested
  in.


  Q10 M4:
  What is the meaning of "Citta"?

  A:
    1) Vinnana in the five Khandas. This is the "knowing" that arises
       when an external thing contacts and stimulates the eyes, ears,
       nose, tongue, body or heart (mind). When stimulation takes place
       the Citta knows it and then it ceases, which is the story of
       arising or birth and ceasing or dying.

    2) One's basic or fundamental "knowing" -- this is the Citta and it
       will go on to create becoming and birth, going to be born
       wherever it may be, depending on how those things which are
       infused into the Citta.


  Q11 M4:
  Are the Citta and wisdom the same thing?

  A:
  The Citta and wisdom are different but related to each other. But
  there is a way in which they can be one and those who practise should
  know this in a natural way for themselves while they are practising.

  Going by general principles mindfulness and wisdom are Dhamma (mental
  factors) which can arise and cease in the same way as other things
  everywhere. Therefore to say that they are one and the same as the
  heart is not proper, but on the other hand they are factors of the
  path (Magga) -- or tools for curing the Kilesas so as to attain purity
  of heart.


  Q12 W2:
  May we ask if we could sit in Samadhi together with Tan Acharn for a
  long time?

  A:
  Sitting in Samadhi for a long time for those who have already done a
  lot of practice is not a problem, but one cannot expect those who have
  just begun to learn to sit for a long time. Therefore people must
  decide on the amount of time for sitting that is appropriate to their
  ability.

  As for sitting together with anyone or not, this will probably depend
  on circumstances. But the important thing is that one should sit
  according to one's own temperament and whether this will be for a long
  time or not will be up to oneself.


  Q13 M5:
  How does Anatta differ from going to be born again?

  A:
  Atta-Anatta are Dhammas that are paired off together until the
  ultimate limit of the mundane relative world (Sammuti) -- until the
  Citta is free from the Kilesas and has become a special Citta, a
  special person. Atta and Anatta then disappear of themselves and there
  is no need to drive any of them out anywhere, for there is just the
  purity of the Citta entire which is "Eka-Citta," "Eka-Dhamma" [*] --
  no duality with anything further.

        [*] Eka -- one (not two).


  The word Anatta is a factor (Dhamma) of the Ti-Lakkhana [*] and
  someone who aims for purity, freedom and Nibbana should contemplate
  "Aniccam, Dukkham, Anatta" until they see and understand these
  Ti-Lakkhana clearly. Then it may be said that the Citta has "well gone
  free." Because //Nibbana is not Anatta//, for how can one force it to
  be Anatta which is one of the Ti-Lakkhana, which are the path for
  getting to Nibbana?

        [*] Ti-Lakkhana -- the three characteristics of all phenomena --
            Anicca (impermanence), Dukkha (unsatisfactory), Anatta
            (not-self).


                            * * * * * * * *