Subject: Transcript: Jeff Jacobsen on KTAR (1 of 5) Date: 3 Feb 1997 01:18:02 -0700 Jeff J

======== Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Transcript: Jeff Jacobsen on KTAR (1 of 5) From: tashback@primenet.com (Tashback) Date: 3 Feb 1997 01:18:02 -0700 Jeff Jacobsen was a guest on a local talk radio show in Phoenix, Arizona, January 30, 1997, to discuss the Lisa McPherson case and Scientology. I found it a fascinating show. What follows is the complete transcript (minus about 10 minutes, which I lost when one of the tapes ran out), broken into five parts, of the three-hour program. Bill Straus is the host. _____ Bill Straus: And welcome to my little portion of your Thursday evening. Tonight wešre going to get into a case of the death of a 36-year-old woman in Clearwater, Florida. And what makes the case interesting -- the case is by the way about a year old -- is that my guest was -- you were the first or one of the first people to make the connection, in your mind, between the death of Lisa McPherson and members of the Church of Scientology? Jeff Jacobsen: Well, the Clearwater police had -- Straus: I should introduce you. Jeff Jacobsen is a gentleman that I have talked to on the phone a number of times. I think we probably go back two or three years. We have never gotten together to do a show, but I find what he sends me or what he feeds me over the telephone always interesting, and in this case, the death of Lisa McPherson, I was extremely interested, and interested by the attention that itšs already gotten from some national media also. Now, with that said, why donšt you just capsulize the situation for us? Jacobsen: OK. The way the story came out essentially was I was getting ready for the next picket. Wešre going to picket again in March in Clearwater, Florida, the Church of Scientology, which we did last year. So I was on the City of Clearwateršs web page. And the police have a section where therešs three deaths that theyšre investigating. Number three was Lisa McPherson. I never heard of any of these people or anything, but I noticed that 210 S. Ft. Harrison was her last address, and that is a church property -- Church of Scientology property. I knew that address because we picketed there before. Straus: And I want to point out at this point, I invited the local spokesperson for the Church of Scientology onto the show, and she declined. Talked to her again, and reinvited her. She declined again. Today I got a phone call from her, and she asked me to not go on with the show. That piqued my interest in the subject even more, in all honesty. So, with that said -- and I even reiterated to her at that time, as I have over the air when Išve promošd the show, I would love to have somebody from the Church of Scientology on in case they feel that they want to counter something Jeff says. And if we have any Scientologists listening, and I am most certain that we do, particularly after a phone call I got later this afternoon that Išll get into a little later, I would invite you to call us if you find that, you know, if you find that you disagree with something thatšs said. The number remains 277-KTAR as always here. Now. 210 South Harrison. Jacobsen: South Fort Harrison. Straus: South Fort Harrison. Jacobsen: Yeah, the Fort Harrison Hotel, which is the largest building in downtown Clearwater. The church owns that, and many other buildings in downtown Clearwater. So I just posted about it onto our newsgroup, which is called alt.religion.scientology on the Internet. Actually I was also looking for another case regarding another person who was a church member, and there was supposedly -- the church was trying to prevent the mother of the children from going to the police with a child molestation case involving a Scientologist. I was kind of looking for that on the police page too, but instead I see this address. Straus: Wešre going to have to get into your thing with Scientology at some point, but right now I want to stick with Lisa McPherson. Jacobsen: Yes. Straus: And you and I just watched a tape of Inside Editionšs coverage of this case. Jacobsen: Yes. Straus: And quite honestly, in such a short period of time, there was a lot of information, and Išve also had an opportunity to review the transcript that you sent me of the show. OK. Getting now down to the specifics. Lisa McPherson was 36 years old. And this was December of a year ago? Jacobsen: Ninety-five. Straus: Ninety-five. Jacobsen: She died December 5, 1995. And thatšs the thing. I think the reason the police put her case on their web page is because theyšre sort of stuck. Theyšre looking for three -- at that time -- Scientologists, who they want to interview, I guess. The names of those three people are on that web page. But then, Lisašs name. So then, I posted about it, I sent -- I was starting to talk to some media in Tampa/Clearwater area because of our picket coming up, and I sent just a bunch of stuff to Cheryl Waldrop at the Tampa Tribune, and she picked up on the Lisa segment of what I sent, which I didnšt -- you know -- all I knew was just what was on the Clearwater web page-- Straus: Just the address. Jacobsen: Thatšs it. And she started to investigate, and then came out I think December 15th with a front-page story about Lisašs death. So thatšs where the story started. Straus: I believe I also read an editorial by her, or was it an editorial that was quoting her possibly from the Tampa paper? Jacobsen: Yeah, both the St. Pete Times and the Tampa paper have many articles about Lisašs case. Straus: Therešs so many things that I want to ask you, but I want to give people the basic background of the death. Lisa McPherson was -- the reason she went to the hospital initially was...? Jacobsen: Well, let me give you, like, I can give you maybe two or three minutes. Straus: Thatšs what Išm looking for. Jacobsen: OK. Lisa was 18 when she joined the church. I donšt know when, but she moved to Clearwater, Florida, a few years before she died, I guess, which is like the spiritual world headquarters of the church of Scientology. She had a high-paying job there with a Scientologist business, and she donated apparently a lot of her money to the church, was very active in the church. November, or sometime in late '95, she called a friend of hers that she grew up with, and the friend says she had stated that Lisa was thinking, was planning to come home, or go back to Texas, in other words, where shešs from. And she couldnšt talk about things on the phone, but she had a lot to talk about. So then comes November 18th, and Lisa had a minor car accident, which she apparently didnšt really get hurt, but she got out of her car and took all of her clothes off and was walking down the sidewalk. So she was taken to the hospital by ambulance, I guess. At the hospital, the doctor there wanted to have her psychologically evaluated. But other Scientologists came to the hospital and stated that Scientologists donšt believe in psychiatry, so they wanted to take her with them. They said they would take care of her 24 hours a day, according to the hospital report. So she checked herself out and went with those people to that 210 S. Ft. Harrison, the hotel, the church said for rest and relaxation. This is November 18th. We really donšt-- Straus: She had spent how long in the hospital? Jacobsen: Part of that day. Just a few hours at most. Straus: And it was clearly against the advice of the medical people that were in attendance that she leave? Jacobsen: They wanted her to be psychologically evaluated. But the church has a big thing against psychiatry. They consider psychiatry to be their, probably their main enemy ... on earth. So now shešs at the Ft. Harrison. The only thing I know for sure -- or I think I know -- is that the attorney Elliot Abelson stated that sometime between November 18th and her death, she was hitting the walls with her fists in that hotel. So what was going on, we donšt know, but 17 days later, December 5th, some Scientologists put her in a van and take her to a hospital. According to Inside Edition, they passed four other emergency rooms to get her to a hospital where there was a Scientologist doctor. Straus: Well, and correct me if Išm wrong. They drove 25 miles when an emergency room was a quarter of a mile away? Jacobsen: Thatšs what Inside Edition said. Yeah, you can look on a map and see where Clearwater is and see Newport Richie straight north up the coast is quite a distance -- for somebody thatšs dying -- to my mind. So she died, according to the people who were taking her, she died just before they get to the hospital. In the autopsy report, the next day, the coroneršs report, they said she was severely dehydrated. The reason for her death was bed rest and severe dehydration. She weighed 108 pounds, was five foot nine tall. And she had bug bites. She had bruises and abrasions on many parts of her body. And she was just pretty beat up, essentially. So the question is, that makes this case kind of unusual partially, is that the church claims that Lisa looked fine up to 24 hours before she was taken to the hospital. No problem. And that she died from a severe staph infection. And thatšs the cause of the bruises and everything, I guess. Straus: And from what I read -- and again, I want to make sure I -- accuracy is important. Didnšt the people that took her back to the hospital also maintain that she had been conscious that day, in fact she had even participated in a discussion of maybe going back to the hospital? Jacobsen: Yeah, Elliot Abelson said on Inside Edition that she had discussed which doctor she wanted to go to, which was this David Minkoff in Newport Richie, who is a Scientologist. Now, therešs a huge -- well, you canšt put the two together, therešs a huge discrepancy between what the church says happened and what the coroner and the police say what happened. The church, again, says that 24 hours before she died, thatšs when she got sick, severe staph infection killed her. The coroneršs report, or the coroner, the medical examiner, says that she had gone a minimum of five days without water, and possibly up to the whole time that she was there for rest and relaxation at the hotel. That the bug bites were cockroach bites most likely, whereas Abelson says they were mosquito bites. So this huge discrepancy between the coroneršs report -- the medical examineršs opinion -- and the churchšs definition of what really happened. Straus: Thatšs pretty much the nuts and bolts of the case. There are so many angles to this, and I want to get into that a little more with Jeff, and I also want to find out whatšs driving Jeff on this thing. And we talked about that briefly, and we decided wešd hold off, and Išd get the answer along with you. You should know: Elliot Abelson is counsel for the Church of Scientology, and he did give me a call today. I returned his phone call, we finally connected, and he voiced grave concerns over this show and having Jeff on and I just -- quite honestly, itšs a judgment call on my part. I find Jeff to be interesting, I find the case to be very interesting, and I feel that Išve approached this extremely fairly all the way through. Gave Elliot Abelson the phone number and told him that he is more than welcome to call us tonight, and so we may hear from him before the night is over. This is Strausšs place, this is KTAR. Talking with Jeff Jacobsen about Lisa McPhersonšs death in Florida. And we will be right back. Straus: What happened to a 36-year-old woman in Clearwater, Florida, Lisa McPherson? Thatšs pretty much what wešre talking about. Jeff Jacobsen is my guest, and Jeff kind of -- I would describe Jeff as a -- well, youšre an anti-cult activist? Jacobsen: Basically, yeah. Straus: You think that Scientology is a cult. Jacobsen: Yeah. Straus: And what is driving you? I mean, youšve been into this for a number of years and spent a great deal of time at it. What got you going in this direction, and -- You know, Išm looking at you trying to decide, well, what are his motives here? Jacobsen: When I was in high school back in the early 70s, I joined a religious group that I consider to be cultish now. I was in that from the age of 16 to 22, and then I finally left because I felt that they were hypocritical and not really what they claimed to be. After that, I went to the University of Arizona, er, Arizona State, and finished my religious studies degree. So Išve always been interested since I was 16 in religions and cults, after I decided I had been in one, and gradually I came to meet ex-Scientologists, read the material about them, and I gradually formed the opinion that they were one of the more harmful groups out there. So I started to specialize in Scientology. Straus: Harmful in what way? And I ask because I really am wary of somebody who is wanting to limit or infringe upon anyonešs right to exercise whatever religion they want. I think itšs one of the most crucial freedoms we have. Jacobsen: Because the church has policies to hurt people, actually. L. Ron Hubbard founded Scientology -- he also wrote the book Dianetics, which is where this all started. Therešs a policy called the fair game policy, which was written by Hubbard in 1967. The church later claimed that it was revoked, but this is part of that: łSP Order.˛ SP means suppressive person, by the way. łFair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued, or lied to or destroyed.˛ Thatšs a teaching of Hubbardšs. Now, Išm a Christian, and if I found where Jesus had written something like that, I would not be a Christian. Straus: No, but thatšs what religion is ... you know, by definition, itšs all different kinds of beliefs. Jacobsen: But this is a policy that says you should hurt people. But Hubbard said that. Herešs another one. The church is known for its litigation, for suing people quite a bit. Another quote from Hubbard in a different book: łThe purpose of the suit,˛ meaning lawsuit, łis to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional defeat. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly.˛ And this is Hubbard, and this is what he taught, his church, and itšs written in stone, they put these words in their expensive vaults so theyšll be safe in case of a nuclear attack, and the church follows these policies. Straus: Well, Išve got to be honest. In my conversation with Mr. Abelson this afternoon, he used the word łlibel˛ twice. I would have had him on the show without using the word łlibel,˛ and I think anybody who listens to this show knows Išm speaking the truth there. Besides that, you know, to have someone throw the word łlibel˛ out to me in formal conversation is to infer that I would be out to intentionally injure somebody or something. And Išve got to tell you all, the purpose of this show is not to do injury to the Church of Scientology or to the Clearwater police or any group or anyone. It really isnšt. The purpose of the show is Išm fascinated by the death of Lisa McPherson. I have to be very candid with you. Išm also very fascinated with the communication that Išve had regarding tonightšs show. So you know what I know. Wešre all on the same playing field. Tell you what. Ginny, hang on the line. Rather than give you a short run before the news, wešll get to you immediately thereafter. If youšd like to call and ask Jeff a question -- if youšd like to call and counter anything hešs saying -- 277-5827. 277-KTAR. Straus: Strausšs Place at 9:36 and a half. I have not, I donšt think that Išve known very many people, I know Išve known a couple of Scientologists. I donšt know much about it. I do know that whenever Išve talked to anybody else -- a colleague in the media -- about doing a show on it, they have told me to be very cautious, itšs more trouble than itšs worth, I will have people giving me a hard time, Išll have legal threats, one thing, another. Quite honestly, as far as Išm aware, there no subjects that are taboo to talk about on the radio, and Jeff Jacobsen, my guest, interested me in the death of Lisa McPherson. I should make it clear, there is -- the case is still being investigated by the Clearwater police. Jacobsen: Correct. Straus: There is no link to any member of the Church of Scientology or the church itself, but through Jeffšs recognition of an address on a web page, with the Clearwater police looking for help in solving a suspicious death, and thatšs what theyšve termed it -- Jacobsen: Yes, they are looking for three Scientologists or ex-Scientologists as investigative leads and they want to interview these people, but they have apparently all three left the country, and I think the church claims that theyšve all three left the church, so the church cannot help locate these people. Straus: OK, wešve got some callers, want to take some phone calls, and we have stuff to talk about, but -- Ginny, thank you for your patience. Ginny: Youšre welcome. Straus: Hello. Ginny: Hi. Straus: Hi. Ginny: Well, first of all, Bill, wešve talked on the phone a couple of times in the past two or three weeks. Straus: Oh, itšs Ginny! [Ginny Leason is the local Scientology spokesperson mentioned above.] Ginny: Yeah, this is Ginny. Straus: Oh, it said łGinny,˛ and I -- OK. Hi. Ginny: Hi. Anyway, the first thing I wanted to say is that, you know, I didnšt want to go on against Jeff Jacobsen and basically be scrutinized or anything else with myself or my religion. The disagreement that I have is that he doesnšt have the first-hand information on Lisa McPherson down in Flag. He wasnšt there. He doesnšt have the first-hand information. Jeff has been attacking the church for a number of years. Hešs a hate-monger and incites the hate against not just our religion but other religions on the Internet. I donšt see him doing anything out in the community, like in respect of I went to Oklahoma City after the bombing and helped hundreds of people and assisted the injured. I do food drives for the Salvation Army. I donšt see Jeff Jacobsen doing that. He couldnšt say that he does that. I work with the clergy who have had their churches burned. And what Jeff has been doing is attacking a mainstream religion who is out in the community and helping other people. And, you know, itšs a very humanitarian thing to be doing. Straus: But in all honesty -- and I would have hoped that you would have come down here -- wešve been on 39 minutes and 47 seconds. Jeff hasnšt done one word of hate-mongering. He really hasnšt. Ginny: Mm hm. Straus: I mean, hešs not calling for people to do anything. Hešs not made any calls to action whatsoever. And I donšt know if what Jeff is presenting me is all true, although he has substantiated a lot of what hešs saying on the air with pre-arranging to have materials in my hand that I could read. I did find the Inside Edition clip -- 10 minutes is not a big deal -- I found it really interesting. I mean, the case is interesting. Ginny: Mm hm. Jacobsen: Does Elliot Abelson have first-hand knowledge of Lisa McPherson? Ginny: He is an attorney that has a lot more correct and on-spot information than you would because he is an attorney. You would have to ask him that. Jacobsen: Your argument against me was that I donšt have first-hand information, but it seems to me Elliot Abelson does not have first-hand information either. Did he see, for instance, Lisa McPherson hitting the walls if he said she did? Ginny: You, again, Jeff, you would have to ask the attorney. I donšt know. Itšs not a situation for here at the, you know, here in Arizona. Itšs not our situation here. The attorneys, as far as I know, are the ones who are handling that. And Išm not going to debate any of this with you because itšs not my place. Itšs not -- it doesnšt have anything to do with the Church of Scientology of Arizona. Jacobsen: OK. So. Hm. But you said, for instance, that you help churches that have been burned? Ginny: Mm hm. Jacobsen: What did you have to do with that that made you interested in that? Ginny: Well, last year I went to a, when one of the first churches burned down in Phoenix, there was a big meeting with a number of government groups down in Phoenix that I attended. And next month wešre going to be assisting in helping to rebuild one of the burned churches. Jacobsen: What I meant-- Ginny: So Jeff, are you doing that? Jacobsen: Išm asking what got you interested-- Ginny: Are you out in the community actually doing community service with the community? I donšt think so. Jacobsen: Well, maybe you donšt know me very well then. Itšs your-- Ginny: So what have you done in the community? Jacobsen: This story isnšt about me, Išm sorry. I mean, you know, if Bill wants to have an hour where we talk about Jeff Jacobsen, thatšs fine. The -- Ginny: But Išm just interested. No, seriously, Išm just interested. What do you do in the community? Then I wouldnšt have that argument. Jacobsen: I get calls, probably several times per month, from people who ask me questions about different cults. Son or daughter gets in a religious group, and they want to know whatšs going on, why did my son change so much. I field calls like that regularly and consistently. Straus: Ginny, let me ask you this. Ginny: Mm hm? Straus: Jeff believes Scientology fits his definition of a cult. You obviously do not. Ginny: No. Straus: Did you hear what he said? I would love to hear the response. Because like I say, I donšt know much about the Church of Scientology. Ginny: Mm hm. Well, Išve been in the Church of Scientology for seven years. And it has done nothing but very good things for myself, my family, my friends. I was at one point in my life a widow when I was in my twenties. And Scientology has done nothing but good things for my life. And itšs a good feeling to go out into the community and help other people. Jacobsen: It is. Išm not against the church per se. I donšt mind it being a religion out there. I donšt believe what they teach, but thatšs fine. And Išm not saying that the church doesnšt help some people. Išm saying that the church hurts some people, and itšs a policy of the church to hurt some people. Thatšs -- the quote I said before, I want to know what you think about that. Hubbard said the purpose of a lawsuit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. Do you think thatšs a proper use of our court system? Ginny: I actually am not familiar with that specific policy. Jacobsen: Well, now you know. Ginny: I will have to read it or you could send it to me. Straus: Let me ask you this, because it seems to be, and this -- Itšs in reference to Lisa McPherson, but it could be a general question. One of the points thatšs disputed is -- Jeff is among those that believe that she was about to separate from the Church of Scientology. Her mother said something to that effect. One of her best friends is reported to have talked to her shortly before this car accident and this whole situation. Elliot Abelson says thatšs not even close to true, she was as close to the church when she died as she was at any other time. I would ask you: If somebody is in the Church of Scientology and wants to leave, have you ever heard of it being a problem? Ginny: No. Straus: Have you ever heard of anyone exerting any kind of force against someonešs will to delay them from leaving? Ginny: No. Not at all. If anyone wants to leave the church, they can leave the church at any time of their own free will. Jacobsen: Therešs particular people -- Roxanne Friend was a woman who stated on the Sally Jesse Raphael show that she was kept against her will for two weeks in an RV by Scientologists because she wanted to leave the church. She sued the church, and the church settled out of court with her. Dennis Erlich stated -- he was a high-ranking member of the church in Clearwater, back in, I think, the late 70s -- stated that he was held in the basement under lock and key of the Ft. Harrison Hotel, the same building where Lisa was, for 10 days. Therešs other people. Lawrence Wollersheim successfully sued the church for ruining him psychologically and an attempt to ruin him financially. That went all the way to the Supreme Court twice and hešs won that. Straus: Are you familiar with any of those? Ginny: Not real familiar. I know of them, but Išm not the expert to ask on those. Straus: Well, Išll tell you what. Because I invited you -- often and sincerely --youšre welcome to stay on the phone with us. Išve got to take a break right now, but I would love for you to stay on the phone, and the three of us will take questions for a while. Ginny: OK. Straus: Youšre cool with that? Ginny: Yeah. Straus: OK. Tremendous. Let me do this. Put Ginny on hold. Now we have Ginny -- Leason, I believe, is her last name. If I got that wrong, wešll correct it when we come back. Jeff Jacobsen. Išm Straus, this is my place. Yes, I know you like to be identified. Ed King Cole is our technical director, and wešre coming right back.