At 01:26 PM 3/4/97 -0600, you wrote:

>most of the arguments i find here agaisnt xianity seem to dwell on the 
>factual basis of the myths of xianity.  however these myths do not need 
>to be literally true to make Chrsitianity true.  In fact there is a 
>wealth of literature that focuses on the core of meaning in Chrsitian 
>literature rather than the factual literalness of let's say a snake 
>talking in the garden.

I'm familure with the apologetical materials and have no difficulty
accepting the mythology as mythology.  Of primary focus is the _history_
of religions (not just Christianity) which use their mythologies (which
include their deity constructs) as a weapon to use against fellow human
beings.  In this Christianity holds the highest body count.

It's good for humans to imagine and play pretend.  Mythology is part of
science fiction, fantasy, and great literary works.  It's the belief in
these things as real which has worked untold misery on the planet.

>If as you propose ther is nothing greater than science that all 
>that exists is what can be measured than how could you possibly care 
>wheter or not someone chooses to skin babies alive or have cake for 
>breakfast, both are merely occurrences in the universe, and can be 
>neither good nor be they just simply are. 

Human evolution includes the need to look after the welfare of the
population over and above the needs of the individual.  As one of the
Star Trek movies tried to underscore so much, the needs of the many
_do_ out weigh the needs of the few for it is the devaluation of 
others which always adversely impacts one's own life.  Eastern
philosophy call it the "Ying from the Yang."  Wicca and Pagani call
it the "three times law" -- everything negative one does comes back
to a person three times as strong.

In fact rape, murder, and torture isn't what nearly all humans 
consider a good time.  It's hard-wired into them through the specie's
evolution to group into and care for individuals who share the same
phenotypes.  Thus tribalism and religion was born to dictate the
suspicion that other racial and religious groups are inferior and
this is why religion and racism has _always_ been the most bloody
ideological constructs yet.  Those who don't believe in deity
constructs and hold no racial bigotries have a far superior record
than the religiously bigoted among us.  And Christianity, as I
mentioned, tops the body count list.

>To be as driven as the writers of this page seem to be indicates 
>that they seem to believe by thier very dedication that exisitence is 
>more than merely atoms and charges going this way and that and then 
>leading to specific outcomes.

Isn't it?  The complexities of molecular interaction within the
human body -- and other animals -- yields a whole far greater than
the sum of all its parts.  Human consciousness is unequal in awe
and splender...  yet it is easilly-enough described in terms of
chemical reactions and electrical pulses along semiconducting and
semipermiable pathways.

>Certainly much of Chrsitianity and all religion reuslts in human 
>suffering.  However religion is not the cause of it no more than could a 
>gun kill someone unless a person fires it.  Religion is humankind's 
>struggle to understand its existence because all humans [even avowed 
>atheists i have met] believe in something not mrerly believe that what 
>ever is , so what.

I don't think I've ever concluded that religion is the _cause_.  I
have often opined that religion is the grand justifier.  Tribalism
seeks to protect the groups who share the same phenotypes and mental
memes while at the same time destroying those which are different.
That's evolution's attributes, sadly, yet was once a requirement
for the advent of speciation.  Religion and racism grant _justification_
for the actions people take.

I've always said that bad people do bad things...  Good people do good
things.  I further demand that history shows us that religions are
most often used to justify the bad things humans do and that those 
who lack such a justification (meaning atheists without racial bias)
have _never_ attained the infamy their theistic, bigoted brothers and
sisters do.

>I would invite a dialogue with you for not a Chrsitans are 
>reactionary and defensive minded.  I beleive that the mind is a gift 
>from God and should be used to search and question are assumptions not 
>merely to give assent to what our parents taught.  Look forward to your 
>response

Pretending that Mind is a gift from the gods is pretty archaic, though,
and negates the scientific investigations into the origins of Mind.
Dr. Susan Blackmore and her colleagues have been investigating the
physiological attributes of Mind for decades and has used what I would
consider some mildly unethical experimentation to determine how the
Mind works.  (The thoughts of implanting electrodes into a brain --
human or otherwise -- gives me the willies!)

Yet the awe and inspiration the human brain deserves isn't lost on 
atheists such as myself.  The ability to think about leaving the
planet and then thinking through the steps required to do so safely
is truely one of the greatest "gifts" that humanity possesses -- yet
it is a mistake to suggest that gods are responsible.  In fact it is
somewhat demeaning and egotistical to proclaim gods responsible for
the great works of humanity.

Lastly, let's not forget that in the two versions of the Genesis myths
the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge were _forbidden_ to humanity.
If Mind is a gift, the Christian gods forbit its use.

>Rev. Thomas Evans

I would _love_ to continue talking along this area.  I'm surprised
that you failed to mention the undisputable contribitions religions
have made to humanity, though.  Great art and literary works, as
well as the charitable works instigated at the behest of religions --
not just Christianity, mind you -- are indisputable.

It's a shame that the good can't be seperated from the bad.  While
we have an epidemic of child rape in the Christian clergy it simply
makes sense to close down the Church until the problem is fixed...
yet that would adversely impact the _positive_ activities of the
Church.  I understand these problems yet I conclude with the opinion
that the bad outweighs the good.  That the bathwater _and_ the baby
need to be discarded and that humanity needs superior gods.