ly developed?
>Was it based on any experimental evidence or just someone's theory?
>Who started it?
I don't claim the difinitive answer, but from my reading, this is how I
understand that these things came about/etc. This info is primarily
based upon the writings of those whom I understand were considered to
be well respeced, and knowlegeable in the fields of the mystical
sciences (yes folks, ``sciences'' is the right word), but I donot claim
More [Y]es,N)o,C)ont,A)bort? c them to be truth, just the opinions of those who know more about it than
I do, as interpreted by me (which leaves lots of room for misintrepreting
etc).
The original theory, as I understand it, works on two basic principles:
a) If two things have similar qualities, then they are in some very
basic way related (i.e. in some way that is related to the similar
qualities), and
b) ``As above, so below'', which means not so much ``what is in the
stars governs/is governed by what is on earth'', but rather every
living creature is a complete image of the universe (though not
necessasarily from the same ``perspective''). Thus, that which we
see in the universe is reflected in the nature of all that lives.
Once you are given the above two postulates, then you have only to
classify everything by their qualities and the theory of astrology,
and most of the mystical siences fall out; assuming that you accept
the classification system.
As for who started it, I am not sure, I believe that it started about
the time of Christ, but I could easly be way off, in either direction.
I am inclined to believe the statements that the Qabala was attributed
to the Jewish Mystics, much earlier, and the two systems are quite
closely related, however I have seen no real hard evidence for the
Qabala's existing prior to a Jewis mystic that lived in either the
600s or the 1400s (AD; I don't remember the dates off hand, and I
don't have any references here). The most believable claim that I
have heard for the the Taro (and again no hard evidence), is that
it was developed to pass on the Qabalistic tradition in a form that
would not be repressed by the (Christian) religious authorities; and
that is the basis for my claim of about the time of Christ.
Finally, as to my claim that it is a science (though I don't claim that
it is well developed in the same way that the quantitative sciences are
today, but those who are more involved with it tell me that it is at
least as well developed), I have heard of cases of fairly convincing
single blind experiments in the relm of the mystical siences (though
not in astrology as most people see it today). I have also heard fairly
convincing arguments as to why such experiments are not well known,
however I have no hard proof for any of the claims that I have made
in this paragraph. Asside from the secretiveness of those who
practice the Magickal sciences, probably the biggest problem
standing between today's science, and Magick is that Magick tends
to be a qualitative science, while today's sience tends to be
quantitative, and not only are the two quite different, but they
qualities tend to be quite hard to measure (look at the fun that
psychology has), and is thus often looked down upon by the button
pushers, and bottle washers that comprise a major portion of the
scientific comunity.
That said, I would also like to point out that in several of his books
(two that I know of ``Magick in Theory, and Practice'', and ``Magick
Without Tears''), Aleister Crowley (who was, dispite anything else
that anyone might have to say about it; one of the truly impressive
magicians of this century), points out that ``Magick is the Science
and Art of Living''. To quote what I consider to be perhaps the best
page of ``Magick in Theory and Practice'' :
I. {\it DEFINITION}
\medskip
{\bf \centerline{MAGICK}
is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformit with
Will.}
(Illustration: It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts
within my knowledge. I therefore take `magical weapons', pen, ink,
and paper; I write `incantations' --- these sentences --- in the
`magical language' i.e. that which is understood by the people I
wish to instruct; I call forth `spirits', such as printers,
publishers, booksellers, and so forth, and constrain them to convey
my message to those people. The composition and distribution of
this book is thus an act of
\centerline{\bf MAGICK}
by which I cause Changes to take place in conformity with my Will)
\bigskip
II. POSTULATE
\medskip
{\bf ANY required Change may be effected by the application of the
proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner through the
proper medium to the proper object.}
(Illustration: I wish to prepare an ounce of Chloride of Gold. I
must take the right kind of acit, nitro-hydrochloric and no other,
in sufficent quantity and of adequate strength, and place it, in a
vessel which will not break, leak, or corrode, in such a manner as
will not produce undesireable results, with the necessary quantity
of Gold: and so forth. Every Change has its own conditions.
In the present state of our knowledge and power some changes are
not possible in practice; we cannot cause eclipses, for instance,
or transform lead into tin, or create men from mushrooms. But it
is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of
which that object is cabable by nature; and the conditions are
covered by the above postulate.)
He then goes on a bit to develop the above thesis, and derives
several results which logically follow, and form the basis of the
sience of Magick. I would recommend both of the above mentioned
books to anyone who is interested in the subject, however, bear in
mind when you read them (if you do), that Crowley had a perverse
sense of humor, and would often start out being quite serious, and
by the end of a given paragraph, be talking quite tounge in cheek,
and vice versa; thus unless he is read quite carfully, there are
numerous traps in all of his works for the unweary to fall into.
I hope that my digressions from the direct questions have not
agrivated anyone to much, but I think that they are relevent to the
discussion. Also, to answer the questions asked by someone else,
on a different thread in this newsgroup (which I consider to be
relevent to any intelegent discussion), I accept most of the above
on faith, however I try not to let that interfear overly with any
discussion/evedence that may be presented to me on the subject. I
like to think that I do a good job of preventing such
interfearence, however I am probably the least suited to judge that
objectively.
S. John Banner
sbanner1@sol.UVic.ca
sbanner1%sol.uvic.cdn@ubc.csnet
...!uw-beaver!uvicctr!sol!sbanner1
...!ubc-vision!uvicctr!sol!sbanner1
ccsjb@uvvm.bitnet (Please avoid this address if possible)
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 880 SKEP Subboard
From: SML108@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Sent: 02-28-90 03:28
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-24-90 00:41
Re: (R) NON-OPTICAL EM TRANSM
From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu
Date: 27 Feb 90 16:24:59 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <90058.112459SML108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In general response to objections to my last post...
The burden of proof for the existence of ESP is not in the hands of
skeptics.
The burden of proof IS in the hands of those who claim it does.
When we say ESP does not exist, we are not contradicting any well
supported
scientific principle. And we have scads of empirical evidence to back us
up.
There has yet to be a well designed ESP experiment with a positive result.
Until such incident occurs, ESP does not exist...
Charles Tart, Harold Puthoff, and the rest of the jujubee squad have been
thoroughly exposed as quacks in Flim Flam by James Randi, and in numerous
articles in The Skeptical Inquirer.
The Psychic Mafia by Lamar Keene will give you a nice insider view as to
what most of these psychics are really like, and why so many researchers
insist on believing in them.
Both of these books are over 10 years old. When are you guys going to get
the message?
Scott Le Grand aka sml108@psuvm.psu.edu
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Msg #: 881 SKEP Subboard
From: MARY SHAFER (OFV Sent: 02-28-90 04:36
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-24-90 00:41
Re: (R) SATANISM: MYTH AND TR
From: shafer@elxsi.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer (OFV))
Date: 27 Feb 90 21:06:20 GMT
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
The only thing arousing skepticism in this posting is why it was
posted to sci.skeptic.
What made you post it here? Could it be ... SATAN?
--
Mary Shafer shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov or
ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer
NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
Of course I don't speak for NASA
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 882 SKEP Subboard
From: ARAN GUY Sent: 03-01-90 00:45
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-24-90 00:41
Re: (R) RE^2: ASTROLOGY: IS I
From: guy@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Aran Guy)
Date: 28 Feb 90 09:47:49 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley
Message-ID: <4968@helios.ee.lbl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <925@uvicctr.UVic.CA.UUCP> sbanner1@uvicctr.UVic.CA.UUCP (S.
John Banner) writes:
>
>In the present state of our knowledge and power some changes are
>not possible in practice; we cannot cause eclipses, for instance,
>or transform lead into tin, or create men from mushrooms. But it
-----------------------
>is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of
>which that object is cabable by nature; and the conditions are
>covered by the above postulate.)
>
Such "impossible" changes are rather routine here, I'm afraid.
Indeed, a few years back, as a byproduct of another run, Glenn
Seaborg, Nobel Laureate, managed to transform a quantity of gold
into lead, at an extrapolated cost of only four quadrillion
dollars per ounce.
Artificial eclipses are also routine in solar studies; we just
don't bother with using the moon. Any old disc-like object will
do.
The poster's knowledge of modern science is about as thorough
as his knowledge of editors.
--
Aran Guy guy@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov LBL
Knobtwister and Buttonpusher And me be me
SuperHeavy Ion Linear Accelerator Our opinions
Accelerator and Fusion Research Division Rarely agree.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 883 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 03-01-90 04:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-24-90 00:41
Re: (R) SATANISM: MYTH AND TR
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 1 Mar 90 04:14:57 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10526@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article
shafer@elxsi.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer (OFV)) writes:
>The only thing arousing skepticism in this posting is why it was
>posted to sci.skeptic.
What a strange question. One week ago today, I was sitting in a very
crowded room at a meeting of the Bay Area Skeptics, a meeting devoted
to exposing the myth of Satanic crime. I keep on my desk a book put
out by the BAS-related Committee for the Skeptical Examination of
Religion, entitled "Satanism in America", which details the myth and
the numerous problems with it. The message itself was a skeptical
examination of claims made by people like Laurel Wilson, Mike Warnke,
and Sean Sellers. This is one of the hottest fields of inquiry in the
skeptical community at present. So my question would have to be: Why
do you ask? Isn't the answer obvious?
>What made you post it here? Could it be ... SATAN?
It seems that some of us are just a leeeetle superior to others....
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
FROM THE FOOL FILE:
"In any religion or form of worship, followers should be allowed to think
for themselves. In every religion that has a god other than Jesus
Christ,
adherents are not allowed to think for themselves."
-- Lauren Stratford, "Satan's Underground"
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 884 SKEP Subboard
From: RICH STREBENDT Sent: 03-01-90 04:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:15
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: res@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt)
Date: 28 Feb 90 06:00:54 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Message-ID: <13982@cbnewsc.ATT.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
In article <10494@hoptoad.uucp>, tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
| In article <1990Feb24.011349.18857@athena.mit.edu>
kiyoshi@athena.mit.edu
| (Kiyoshi Kurihara) writes:
| >There once was a guy
| >named Yuli Gueller (sp?) who did this magic. (though he rubbed spoon's
| >necks to bend). What was the general conclusion about his trick?
|
| Uri Geller has been extensively debunked. Even his supporters admit
| that he has been caught cheating on several occassions. He
| consistently fails to perform if the experiemntal conditions are
| designed by professional magicians. For instance, Johnny Carson
| consulted James Randi about the design of Geller's "demonstration" on
| the Tonight Show, with the result that Geller was unable to perform
| even one of his feats. The avenues for cheating had been removed.
Prior to another appearance of Geller on Johnny Carson's show, another
guest (I think it was Dr. Joyce Brothers, but I may be mistaken)
happened upon some bent nails being held by a prop man. She replaced
the bent nails with straight ones. Uri was strangely unable to bend
nails onstage that evening!
Rich Strebendt
...!att!ihlpb!res
r.strebendt@att.com
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Msg #: 885 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT HOPGOOD Sent: 03-01-90 16:33
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:16
Re: (R) NON-OPTICAL EM TRANSM
From: RHOPGOOD@ucs.UAlberta.CA (Robert Hopgood)
Date: 28 Feb 90 19:57:18 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta VM/CMS
Message-ID: <855@ucs.UAlberta.CA>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <90058.112459SML108@psuvm.psu.edu>, SML108@psuvm.psu.edu
writes:
>There has yet to be a well designed ESP experiment with a positive
result.
>
>Until such incident occurs, ESP does not exist...
>
>Scott Le Grand aka sml108@psuvm.psu.edu
Question -- did the atom not exist 400/500 years ago because "science"
could
not prove it?
I wonder what you would be saying "IF" the future allows ESP to be proven
to
your satisfaction
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 886 SKEP Subboard
From: NICHAEL CRAMER Sent: 03-01-90 16:33
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:16
Re: (R) NON-OPTICAL EM TRANSM
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Date: 1 Mar 90 00:51:17 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
Message-ID: <52798@bbn.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <855@ucs.UAlberta.CA> RHOPGOOD@ucs.UAlberta.CA writes:
>In article <90058.112459SML108@psuvm.psu.edu>, SML108@psuvm.psu.edu
writes:
>>There has yet to be a well designed ESP experiment with a positive
result.
>>
>>Until such incident occurs, ESP does not exist...
>Question -- did the atom not exist 400/500 years ago because "science"
could
>not prove it?
In a (somewhat techincal) sense, yes. But perhaps a more accurate way of
saying this is that, at that time, it [the atom] had no place in Science
for the simple fact that there were no data that argued for it existence.
That is, someone in the 15th century had no more basis for believing in
the
atom than he had in believing in, say, Maxwell's Daemon as the basic
constituent of matter. He would have been equally wrong --at that time--
to have believed in either.
>I wonder what you would be saying "IF" the future allows ESP to be proven
to
>your satisfaction
I would say that Science marches on. There are plenty of examples of new
data overturning old models.
But the signal term here is "data". At present there are no data that
argue for the existence of ESP (any more than there are for Maxwell's
Daemon above). And it is for this reason that belief in ESP cannot be
considered Science.
NICHAEL
| Nichael Lynn Cramer | The Corpse of the Sea is now calling me home. |
| -- Nichael@BBN.Com | It is dead, but it calls with a mouth that is |
| -- NCramer@BBN.Com | alive. -- Theognis of Megara. |
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 887 SKEP Subboard
From: DAVID GOLDFARB Sent: 03-01-90 16:34
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:16
Re: (R) RE^2: ASTROLOGY: IS I
From: goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
Date: 1 Mar 90 02:24:55 GMT
Organization: ucb
Message-ID: <34611@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <4968@helios.ee.lbl.gov> guy@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Aran Guy)
writes:
)In article <925@uvicctr.UVic.CA.UUCP> sbanner1@uvicctr.UVic.CA.UUCP (S.
John Banner) writes:
)>
)>In the present state of our knowledge and power some changes are
)>not possible in practice; we cannot cause eclipses, for instance,
)>or transform lead into tin, or create men from mushrooms. But it
) -----------------------
)>is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of
)>which that object is cabable by nature; and the conditions are
)>covered by the above postulate.)
)>
)
) Such "impossible" changes are rather routine here, I'm afraid.
) Indeed, a few years back, as a byproduct of another run, Glenn
)Seaborg, Nobel Laureate, managed to transform a quantity of gold
)into lead, at an extrapolated cost of only four quadrillion
)dollars per ounce.
) The poster's knowledge of modern science is about as thorough
)as his knowledge of editors.
)
)--
) Aran Guy
Mr. Banner's knowledge of modern science is much more thorough than
your knowledge of reading. If you knew how to read, you would have
noticed that the passage you flamed was quoted from Aleister Crowley,
and was written quite early in this century. When it was written it
was true, as nuclear technology was not then so highly advanced as
it is now.
Mr. Banner's posting contained several typographical errors, none
of which interfered with comprension, and all of which may be excus-
able, for instence on grounds of its having been composed at a late
hour. What excuse is there for your carelessness and arrogance?
David Goldfarb goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (Insert standard disclaimer)
"Mr. Spock, I...believe...I'm in love with Edith Keeler."
"Jim, Edith Keeler must die."
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 888 SKEP Subboard
From: BRETT SLOCUM Sent: 03-01-90 20:26
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:16
Re: (R) DEFINITION OF SATANIS
From: slocum@hi-csc.UUCP (Brett Slocum)
Date: 1 Mar 90 15:47:00 GMT
Organization: Honeywell Sensor and System Dev. Center, Golden Valley, MN
Message-ID: <48ef7b1b.805@hi-csc.UUCP>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
In general I believe that the majority of Satanists are of the LeVey
school
of "we do it for personal ego-building" Satanism. There are also those
individuals who commit crimes and then say Satan made them do it, either
out of mental illness (along the lines of "I heard Angelic voices"), or
an attempt to get off on an insanity plea. I also believe that there
are Satanists who are performing ritual crimes and abuse for religious
reasons
(I'm sure Mr. Maroney will laugh at my naivete). Then there is the group
who are committing crimes based on the media hype around Satanism, for
example, the Matamagorda (sp?) murders in Mexico, where ritual murders
were performed in order to cast spells to protect drug dealers. These
people were heavily influenced by the film "The Believers" and created
their rituals based almost solely on this movie. By far the largest
section
of Satanists is the first.
As far as the freedom of religion aspect of Satanism, I think that the
LeVey-style Satanists are just as deserving of protection from persecution
as anyone. As for the rest, criminal activity is criminal activity
and should be treated as such.
As for Neo-pagan handling of the issue, I think that we should spend more
time developing a positive image. Tell people what we are, not what we
aren't.
When people ask if we are Satanists, say something like "Oh, Satanism is
too
Christian for my tastes" or "Satan is a Christian deity" or "The roots of
my
religion predate both Christianity and Satanism." or simply "We do not
worship
Satan". But try to avoid negative comments about Satanism. If someone
says
"Do you do sacrifices?" or other stupidities, please avoid the temptation
to say
"Oh, we leave that to the Satanists". Just say something like "My
religion
celebrates life, and stuff like that makes me sick."
Now can we please get on to other more interesting topics?
--
Brett Slocum or
"I'm not a god; I've just been misquoted." - Lister from Red Dwarf.
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Msg #: 889 SKEP Subboard
From: MIKE MORGAN IN COLORADO SPRINGS Sent: 03-01-90 21:35
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:16
Re: (R) DEFINITION OF SATANIS
From: morgan@csc32.dec.com (Mike Morgan in Colorado Springs)
Date: 1 Mar 90 20:11:38 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Message-ID: <1552@engage.enet.dec.com>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
In article <48ef7b1b.805@hi-csc.UUCP>, slocum@hi-csc.UUCP (Brett Slocum)
writes...
>Then there is the group
>who are committing crimes based on the media hype around Satanism, for
>example, the Matamagorda (sp?) murders in Mexico, where ritual murders
>were performed in order to cast spells to protect drug dealers. These
>people were heavily influenced by the film "The Believers" and created
>their rituals based almost solely on this movie. By far the largest
section
>of Satanists is the first.
A minor correction...
I believe these criminals were practicing Palyo Mayombe (sp?), a
form of stick magik and deviant from its Cubian Santeria type forms.
Our culture is intersecting the Central and South American forms of
Santeria, Macumba and Locumi. They are different from neo-Paganism but
they are not Satanic, they are more pagan than neo-Pagan.
Of course the Metamoros killings were just bad a$$es being bad.
*** As always I speak for myself. ***
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Msg #: 890 SKEP Subboard
From: PAMELA TROY Sent: 03-02-90 01:35
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:16
Re: (R) DEFINITION OF SATANIS
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Pamela Troy)
Date: 2 Mar 90 08:30:35 GMT
Organization: Locus Publications, Oakland CA
Message-ID: <10543@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
(Quoted From Tim)
>> We continue to see messages repeating the popular falsehoods about
>> Satanism that are so widespread today within the religious right
>> and Neo-Paganism, especially that Satanists have come forward
>> and admitted to committing sacrifices. All these claims are false,
>> malicious, and damaging.
>>
>> [detailed discussion of cases deleted]
>>
>> Those responsible for spreading these malicious rumors share in
>> the responsibility for any crimes of any such group modeled on
>> media reports; those of us battling this irrationalism have it to
>> our credit that we tried to prevent it.
(Quoted From Gary)
> OK. It's obvious from the tone of your letter that you are either
> a Satanist or a Satanist wannabe. I've read in this newsgroup that
> there is a difference between a "real" Satanist (the ones who mutilate
> cows) and "adversarial" Satanists (the ones who are against the
> church)....If you are not a stereotypical Satanist, why do you call
> yourself one? I can only think of two reasons: 1: There is
> something fundamentally wrong with your mind. 2: It's a
> sophomoric bid for attention...Please give me a reasoned, rational
> answer to this question.
Uh... Excuse me, Gary, but I don't see any connection between the
section of Tim's article that you quote and your own reaction to it.
Tim has lucidly made a case for the current crop of stories about
Satanism being a crock, and he has backed up his case. You have
answered without responding to any of his points, indulging
instead in an ad hominem attack in which you imply that Tim
is either insane or immature. Your reaction, frankly, strikes me
as a rather desperate attempt to draw attention away from
the subject at hand, which is that Satanists are currently the victim
of the type of revolting propaganda once aimed at Jews, Catholics,
and Masons -- and that it is any rational person's responsibility to
fight these lies.
Insulting someone because you're incapable of responding to his
arguments impresses nobody, Gary. If you have any reasoned or
rational responses to the actual content of Tim's message, please
share them with us. Otherwise we'll have to assume that you don't
have a leg to stand on in this argument -- and that you know it.
As for those Satanists "who mutilate cows" -- there's precious little
evidence that any such Satanists exist. There has been no rise in
livestock mortality rates that cannot be attributed to natural causes
such as drought or bad weather, and investigations by experts of
so-called mutilations have shown that most of them can be explained
by natural predators -- insects, coyotes, and other carrion eaters.
People who promote the "cattle mutilation" myths feel compelled to
explain why there are never any footprints around the dead animals,
and this always leads them into absurdity. We are asked to believe
that cattle stand still while helicopters hover overhead, or fifty-foot
platforms are extended from flatbed trucks. We are asked to believe
that somehow the owners of this remarkable equipment manage to
keep their helicopters and cranes discreetly hidden from the police;
that they are actually bringing these loud, enormous machines into play
so that they can evade notice!
(Gary)
> The people who read this newsgroup are, by and large, more
> intelligent than the "average American"....
> If we persist in siding with the Satanists, we *will* be next! The
> Christian culture (as a group) has, if not a stranglehold, at least
> a tight grip on our federal and local governments...If we are to
> worship in our own ways without the threat of persecution,
> it is *this* group, not the government, which we need to convince
> of our "goodness. We can not do this if we insist on defending the
> Satanists...if we are to gain acceptance and be *allowed* the
> religious freedom which should be guaranteed us, we cannot
> afford to align ourselves with the enemies of our opponents...
> Satanists should either find another name or stop calling themselves
> Witches, because when they call themselves Witches, it affects US.
Since you are one of those readers of this newsgroup who are "by and
large, more intelligent than the 'average' American", I don't suppose
I need to quote the Niemoller statement to you. Or do I? Ever hear
of Martin Niemoller, and what he had to say about your stance on this
subject?
I find your the attitudes expressed in your message a classic case of
"blaming the victim." Satanists are currently the subject of a brutal
attack, in which the vilest accusations are being thrown at them,
accusations calculated to ruin lives even if the accused is aquitted
in a court of law. Children have been taken from their parents, people
have been thrown in jail, property has been confiscated, careers have
been ended, and reputations ruined by the authors of this hysteria --
so who do you blame? The Satanists, apparently for committing the
unpardonable crime of sticking to their guns and stoutly insisting on
using the word "Witches", which you find so intolerable, rather than
meekly knuckling under and using some other word that won't offend
tender Pagan sensibilities.
Where in the name of the Great Mother have you picked up the
idea that denying you are a Satanist is somehow going to protect
you from such an all-out witchhunt? Has it helped Raymond Buckey?
Or his mother? Or his sister? Did it help Gary Hambright? Wake up!
If a Baptist minister can be accused of Satanic and Ritual Abuse,
if an Episcopal church can be forced to close down because of
similar accusations, then Wiccans can deny they are Satanists until
they turn blue -- it isn't going to do a damned bit of good. The
smart response is the decent one. Speak out against lies and religious
persecution, even when the subjects of the lies and persecution are
people you dislike. Edging away from the victim and hoping that the
attacker will think you're a neat guy for it rarely works. You're more
likely to end up not only as badly stomped as the people you refused
to defend, but with the shame of knowing your own moral failure.
> I have probably offended several people, Satanists, Pagans, and
> Christians combined. I'm sorry for that. But Satanism affects
> *me* directly. It has affected the way people percieve my religion
> and it has affected my family.
I am not a Satanist, nor a Pagan, nor a Christian, but you have
offended me deeply. The fact that it has affected your family and
the way your religion is perceived does not arouse the slightest
sympathy in me, since your previous messages have made it clear
that you are willing to stand by silently and watch another religion
and other families being maligned and destroyed. As far as I'm
concerned, you deserve no more compassion than you are willing to extend.
I have always been interested in witchhunts and propaganda campaigns.
Over the centuries, such attacks on minority groups have had a depressing
sameness, whether the victims have been Christians (in the Roman period),
Jews, Albigensians, Witches, Catholics, Mormons, or Satanists. They
commit human sacrifice! They kidnap and molest our children! They have
wild sex-orgies! They are out to take over the world! Accusations like
this rarely stop with mere words: they almost always result in violence,
carried out by governments, mobs, or both. And always...ALWAYS...there
are people who should know better who stand by and say nothing
because they don't want to make waves. It's the people who don't speak
up that make pogroms, jihads, and other forms of religion-sanctioned
mayhem possible.
Welcome to the club.
[Posted for Pamela Troy by Tim Maroney]
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
FROM THE FOOL FILE:
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 891 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 03-02-90 15:34
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:17
Re: (R) RE^2: ASTROLOGY: IS I
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 2 Mar 90 10:56:01 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10548@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <925@uvicctr.UVic.CA.UUCP> sbanner1@uvicctr.UVic.CA.UUCP
(S. John Banner) writes:
>)>In the present state of our knowledge and power some changes are
>)>not possible in practice; we cannot cause eclipses, for instance,
>)>or transform lead into tin, or create men from mushrooms. But it
>) -----------------------
>)>is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of
>)>which that object is cabable by nature; and the conditions are
>)>covered by the above postulate.)
>In article <4968@helios.ee.lbl.gov> guy@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Aran Guy)
writes:
>) Such "impossible" changes are rather routine here, I'm afraid.
>) Indeed, a few years back, as a byproduct of another run, Glenn
>)Seaborg, Nobel Laureate, managed to transform a quantity of gold
>)into lead, at an extrapolated cost of only four quadrillion
>)dollars per ounce.
>) The poster's knowledge of modern science is about as thorough
>)as his knowledge of editors.
In article <34611@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> goldfarb@ocf.Berkeley.EDU
(David Goldfarb) writes:
> Mr. Banner's knowledge of modern science is much more thorough than
>your knowledge of reading. If you knew how to read, you would have
>noticed that the passage you flamed was quoted from Aleister Crowley,
>and was written quite early in this century. When it was written it
>was true, as nuclear technology was not then so highly advanced as
>it is now.
Indeed. In fact, the sequence is rather amusing. Crowley's passage
actually is a prediction that at some future "state of our knowledge
and power" it *would* be possible to transform lead into tin, which we
can do now at great expense some decades later (though there is little
reason to do so), and to turn men into mushrooms, which would clearly
be within the scope of genetic engineering within another century at
most (though again, there is little reason we would want to, except for
John Mathon). Guy's careless reading has led him to misrepresent a
statement which, without too much stretching, could be considered
prophetic, and even to denounce its accurate prediction as "behind the
times", a truly lunatic statement.
(Incidentally, whatever Crowley's other flaws may have been [and there
were many], he was anything but ignorant of science. He was trained as
an organic chemist, and the book which Guy has attacked contains
correct references to the contemporary theory of general relativity and
related subjects. In fact, his scientific references were considerably
more careful and accurate than today's crop of "quantum physics proves
psychic powers" books; Crowley felt the concepts in themselves were
mythic enough without spurious applications to "explaining" paranormal
powers. [Not to let him completely off the hook -- he did believe in
such powers, he just didn't warp physics to explain them....])
> Mr. Banner's posting contained several typographical errors, none
>of which interfered with comprension, and all of which may be excus-
>able, for instence on grounds of its having been composed at a late
>hour. What excuse is there for your carelessness and arrogance?
Well said, David. But I hesitate to think what you would have reported
to our mutual friend, had I written the selfsame paragraph....
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
"Starting in a hollowed log of wood -- some thousand miles up a river,
with an
infinitesimal prospect of returning! I ask myself 'Why?' and the only
echo
is 'damned fool! ... the Devil drives!"
-- Sir Richard Francis Burton in correspondence to Monckton Miles,
1863
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 892 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 03-02-90 16:28
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:19
Re: (R) DEFINITION OF SATANIS
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 2 Mar 90 23:27:23 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10550@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
In article <8695@shlump.nac.dec.com> piatt@apache.dec.com
(Garison Ellsworth Piatt) writes:
>>>[A lot of IMO foolish - and short sighted - stuff about not defending
>>> religions beliefs we don't like (i.e. Satanism) because we'll get
>>> called Satanists.] -- summary by phoenix@ms.uky.edu
In article <10484@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>>Here is the Satanic form of the McCarthy-era liberal argument in its
>>purest form. Let us throw the (Satanists,Communists) to the wolves so
>>that we may be spared. I thank Piatt for validating my claim that this
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>argument is common in Neo-Paganism...
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In article <14349@s.ms.uky.edu> phoenix@ms.uky.edu (R'ykandar Korra'ti)
writes:
>Hah?
>
>Tim -
> I know that you are not what could be called friendly to the
existance
>of the alt.pagan newsgroup.
Why do you say that? I supported the creation of such a newsgroup; I
did prefer a more inclusive name, but that doesn't make me hostile to
the group as it was formed.
>I know that you also have personal objections to
>neopaganism as a whole.
I do? Again, I am unsure where you are getting this from. All
political and religious groups have problems, and Neo-Paganism is no
exception. But pointing out its prejudice against Satanists and
other problems such as widespread historical inaccuracy doesn't make
me an enemy of "neopaganism as a whole" any more than pointing out
institutionalized misogyny in Orthodox Judaism makes me an
anti-Semite. Of course, both Orthodox Jews and Neo-Pagans find it
easier to tar me with this brush than to respond substantially
to my criticisms.
>That's fine; personally, I don't care (which is why
>I've never responded to any of your posts before.)
*Which* is why? You've never responded to my posts because of beliefs
you ascribe to me which I do not in fact hold?
> But why the hell do you insist upon taking one or two twits and
holding
>them up as examples of the REST of us? I find your statement here to not
only
>be unfounded but insulting. Are all Mormans like the twits in Ohio which
>participated in the ritual murders? No. Are all conservatives really
fascists
>in democratic clothing? No. Are all liberals commies? No. So why do you
insist
>upon calling all neopagans names based upon the opinions of what in my
>experience has been a _very small_ minority of people? At best it's a
double
>standard; at worst it's vindicitive and mean-spirited.
First of all, please keep your Red-bashing to yourself. The word
"commie" is a nasty political slur which has been used to ruin
thousands of lives in the United States and to kill millions of foreign
nationals. It has no more place in civilized discourse than does the
word "nigger". If you have objections to Communism, please state them
as such.
Second, once again you are putting words in my mouth which I did not in
fact say, and do not agree with. Read my lips -- I said the
McCarthyite "argument is common in Neo-Paganism". I did not do
anything remotely like "calling all neopagans names". In fact, several
days before you posted this, I told John Obendorfer (right here in
alt.pagan) how gratified I was by the Neo-Pagans who went out of their
way to oppose this specious and immoral argument.
The fact is, the argument *is* common in Neo-Paganism. I've heard it
time and again, from BNP's like Judy Harrow and Diana Paxson all the
way down to nobodies like Garison Piatt, Ammond Shadowcraft (Mike
Morgan), and John Halbig. It is definitely the consensus in
Neo-Paganism that "We are NOT Satanists" is a perfectly adequate
response to the persecution of Satanists. I am glad for the handful,
like Don Frew, John Obendorfer, Leigh Ann Hussey, and others, who
oppose this disgusting practice, but it is hardly any less a
characteristic problem of Neo-Paganism for all that.
Your repeated misinterpretations and exagerrations of my remarks make
it clear that you're locked into a rather common religious mindset; all
criticism from without the community is by nature unjustified and
offensive, and proves bias against the community. This regardless of
how true the criticism may happen to be, or how carefully it is
expressed. Wake up; no group is all-good, and yours is no exception.
You can either shriek and moan when someone points out the problems --
in which case you're part of them -- or you can accept well-reasoned
and accurate criticism for what it is -- in which case you're part of
the solution.
> Please, Tim; you've made some decent points in the past. Don't screw
>it up by going off on these antagonistic, unfounded tangents.
It's clear that to you, it is "antagnistic and unfounded" to point out
*any* characteristic problem of Neo-Paganism. Sorry, but I'm not going
to stop just to gratify your myth of Neo-Pagan perfection.
>Everybody else -
> On this whole business:
> We only have as much liberty as those who are enjoy the least. If we
>allow any - no matter how much we may dislike them - to be persecuted,
then
>we, too, shall eventually be persecuted. We allow Nazis to exist; we
allow
>the Communist Party of the United States to exist (just to name a couple
of
>popular bugaboos); why should we stop when it comes to religion? We don't
>have to _like_ them - but we cannot _oppress_ them because of that, lest
>we become that which we despise.
> Think about it; do we _really_ want to adopt the "One Way Only"
theory
>of the (in particular) fundamentalist Christians?
> I don't.
Well said, except for the continuation of gratuitous Red-bashing.
There is a rather insulting assumption that all your readers will
find left-wing politics distasteful.
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
"I am convinced that cross-posting is an evil Satanic plot."
-- Eugene Miya on soc.net-people, misc.headlines, misc.kids,
misc.misc,
news.misc, and soc.misc
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 893 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 03-02-90 16:28
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:20
Re: (R) SATANISM: MYTH AND TR
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 2 Mar 90 23:48:25 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10551@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
From article <10483@hoptoad.uucp>, by tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney):
>> Given that these factors added up to simple fraud in the case of Lauren
>> Stratford (Laurel Wilson), it is plain that the similar stories by such
>> people as Mike Warnke, John Todd Collins, Stormie Omartian, and
>> Michelle Smith must be considered presumptively false until they come
>> up to certain minimum standards of evidence.
In article <1990Feb28.015030.17923@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>
schmidea@clutx.clarkson.edu writes:
> No, it is not plain. That one twerp has been proven false does
not
>immediatly prove the other's false or true. Each case must be evaluated
on
>its' own merits.
That's what I said. What do you think it means to hold a case "up to
certain minimum standards of evidence"? It means to judge the case
on its merits. If the cases are incredible, lack any substantiating
evidence, are used for personal gain, are insulting to a religious
group, and are not used to try to bring the malefactors to justice,
then we are perfectly justified in considering them false. If they
come up to a minimum standard of evidence, however, we should take
them seriously, and ivestigate them in hopes of proving their truth
or falsehood. The fact is that none of these lecture-circuit books
*does* come up to a minimum standard of evidence, so I have no hesitation
in calling them all as false as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".
>> respects. None shows any connection to any "Satanic conspiracy" like
>> the one ballyhooed by prejudiced members of the religious right and
>> Neo-Paganism, and none is likely to in the future.
>
> I don't think there is any "Satanic conspiracy", I think that
there
>are some seriously twisted people that have chosen to identify with a
deity
>that is historicly known as evil.
I take it that you mean "witches", historically seen as evil? I have
to say I find your statement rather offensive. I have known many
witches, and few if any of them were "seriously twisted". Their
motives in identifying themselves with an historical symbol of evil are
first, to identify their sympathies more with the victims of Christian
intolerance than with the perpetrators (much the same can be said of
Templars and Satanists, of course), and second, to express personal
sympathy for those mythological structures that Christianity opposed
and demonized. They are intelligent adversaries of the evils of the
Christian Church for the most part, not "seriously twisted people" as
per your stereotype.
>I'm not saying that there is any
>organizational ties between the incidents.
Well, that's big of you. It would be even bigger if there were any
incidents to explain. The drug dealers in Matamoros didn't call
themselves Satanists, and they got their ritual out of a disgusting
parody of the Palo Moyembe tradition that appeared in a horror movie.
Sean Sellers said he blew off the head of the 7-11 Clerk for flirting
with his girlfriend when he was arrested; he called it Satanic only
after his "conversion" to Christianity in jail, and there was nothing
ritual about the killing. Pete Roland told the person who he and two
friends beat to death with baseball bats that they were doing it
"because it's fun"; again, the "Satanism" was something he added later
while in jail, and the killing was not in any way ritual. Not only is
there not any organized Satanic group behind these things, the killings
were not at all "Satanic" -- that's something that was added later,
either by the press or by people seeking to displace responsibility to
Satan and evade the worst consequences of their criminality.
(Note that I am *not* arguing that "they weren't real Satanists,
because real Satanists wouldn't do that", the way many Christians do
when faced with examples of the historical intolerance of their
religion. I'm saying the acts were not Satanically inspired because
the perpetrators initially said they weren't Satanically inspired, and
changed their stories only when it became convenient to displace
responsibility; and because the supposed "sacrifices" were not ritual
killings.)
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
"The Diabolonian position is new to the London playgoer of today, but not
to
lovers of serious literature. From Prometheus to the Wagnerian
Siegfried,
some enemy of the gods, unterrified champion of those oppressed by them,
has
always towered among the heroes of the loftiest poetry."
- Shaw, "On Diabolonian Ethics"
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Msg #: 894 SKEP Subboard
From: JAN WILLEM NIENHUYS Sent: 03-03-90 09:39
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:20
Re: (R) NON-OPTICAL EM TRANSM
From: wsadjw@eutws1.win.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Date: 1 Mar 90 13:33:28 GMT
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <1565@tuegate.tue.nl>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <52798@bbn.COM> ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes:
>
>for the simple fact that there were no data that argued for it existence.
>That is, someone in the 15th century had no more basis for believing in
the
>atom than he had in believing in, say, Maxwell's Daemon as the basic
>constituent
>
Lucretius (96 BCE-55 BCE) argued that there are atoms. His reasons (data?)
were those of simplicity, and we might not find them compelling. He
mentions
however the incessant whirling of dust motes that you can see if a ray of
sunlight shines in an otherwise dark room: he explains this by saying that
they are buffeted by the invisible atoms, kind of Brownian motion
hypothesis
avant la lettre.
This brings me to another question: if you hold that things do not exist
unless science has proven their existence, would that imply that things
(like the roundness of the earth or atoms) stop existing when the relevant
science is forgotten?
J.W. Nienhuys,
Research Group Discrete Mathematics, Dept. of Mathematics and Computing
Science
Eindhoven University of Technology, P.O. BOX 513, 5600 MB Eindhoven
The Netherlands
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 895 SKEP Subboard
From: SML108@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Sent: 03-03-90 09:40
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:20
Re: (R) NON-OPTICAL EM TRANSM
From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu
Date: 1 Mar 90 13:51:43 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <90060.085143SML108@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <855@ucs.UAlberta.CA>, RHOPGOOD@ucs.UAlberta.CA (Robert
Hopgood)
says:
>Question -- did the atom not exist 400/500 years ago because "science"
could
>not prove it?
>
>I wonder what you would be saying "IF" the future allows ESP to be proven
to
>your satisfaction
Thank you for answering with typical bad parapsychology response to
disbelief in PK #124.
Your argument, like most of what the most vocal parapsychologists attempt
to babble as science, is irrelevant. 400-500 years ago, we lacked the
ability to detect atoms, but we did know cheap parlor tricks when we
saw them (at least some of the time).
It is blissfully simple to test the powers of any so called psychic.
Whenever they are tested under conditions in which cheating is not
possible, they fail. I do not believe parapsychologists who have
reported positive results KNOW what controlled conditions are.
If James Randi ever gives out his money, I'll change my mind. I
consider him an expert. I consider Puthoff, Targ, Schmidt, Hasted,
and the rest of the jujubee sqaud loonies, no better than those
who attempt to patent perpetual motion machines.
But since you appear to consider me narrow minded, how much would
you like to bet that James Randi won't be giving out his money in
the next ten years? If the profound discovery of PK is just around
the corner, it's easy money for you.
Scott
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Msg #: 896 SKEP Subboard
From: HOWARD STEEL Sent: 03-03-90 10:25
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:20
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: howard@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM (Howard Steel)
Date: 1 Mar 90 13:36:54 GMT
Organization: NCR Canada Ltd, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
Message-ID: <233@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
In article <13982@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> res@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt)
writes:
>In article <10494@hoptoad.uucp>, tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
>| In article <1990Feb24.011349.18857@athena.mit.edu>
kiyoshi@athena.mit.edu
>| (Kiyoshi Kurihara) writes:
>| >What was the general conclusion about his trick?
>| Uri Geller has been extensively debunked.
>Prior to another appearance of Geller on Johnny Carson's show, another
>guest (I think it was Dr. Joyce Brothers, but I may be mistaken)
>happened upon some bent nails being held by a prop man. She replaced
>the bent nails with straight ones. Uri was strangely unable to bend
>nails onstage that evening!
Not to open a debate on Geller, (who needs it), but the above story sounds
rather suspicious in and of itself. Dr. Bros. just happened upon some prop
man, who just happened to be holding some bent nails, and just happened to
have a load of straight nails with her (as any good psychologist would),
and
just happened to either convince the prop man to go along with her
(hypnosis?)
or without his knowledge removed and replaced the nails the prop man was
holding. Enough.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 897 SKEP Subboard
From: SULLIVAN Sent: 03-03-90 13:22
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:20
Re: (R) NON-OPTICAL EM TRANSM
From: sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
Date: 2 Mar 90 15:22:05 GMT
Organization: dcrt
Message-ID: <1385@nih-csl.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <855@ucs.UAlberta.CA>, RHOPGOOD@ucs.UAlberta.CA (Robert
Hopgood) writes:
> Question -- did the atom not exist 400/500 years ago because "science"
could
> not prove it?
Of course not. This has nothing to do with the arguement either,
unless
you wish to say that science does not have the tools to detect a
phenomenon
that many people say the experience. Science does have the tools,
it
is called
STATISTICS and the statistical tests run come up empty. Why
should such
a phenomenon stop working when being tested by scientists?
> I wonder what you would be saying "IF" the future allows ESP to be
proven to
> your satisfaction.
Well, if anyone came up with some real repeatable statistical
evidence
I would be swayed. Lots of work has been done by
parapsychologists
and most has been shown to be full of errors and others have not
been repeatable. How can you explain a phenomenon that is widely
experienced yet, when tested, is not detected? How can so many
claim the abilities of predicting the future, knowing what has
just
happened far away, etc... when experiments, which try to show that
these
things are more than just chance, result in nothing more than
chance?
Science, while being skeptical of anything new, will not ignore
evidence
that is solid and repeatable. I have said this before. The
researcher that
shows solid evidence for ESP will be up for a Nobel prize. But,
when
nothing is there, it is hard for researchers to go chasing after
something
that has no real evidence after many many years of testing and has
its
roots in mysticism.
Scientists are not closed minded... they just do not waste their
time
on research which has shown no positive results and has no basis
in
reality. I know people who have said that earthquakes and bad
weather were caused by the Apollo astronauts walking on the moon.
But
I know of no one who began running an experiment to show it to be
true.
People tend to make connections between two events
(syncronicity???)
and thinking about someone, then learning they were in an accident
at that
time draws one to make the connection, even though the person
thinks about
the other person every day. ESP, in my opinion, is a
manifestation of the
way the human mind interprets events, and not a reality.
Jim Sullivan
sullivan@alw.nih.gov
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Msg #: 898 SKEP Subboard
From: GEORGE WILLIAM HERBERT Sent: 03-03-90 18:23
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:21
Re: PAGANISM AND SATANISM
From: gwh@bigbang.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert)
Date: 3 Mar 90 04:55:06 GMT
Organization: ucb
Message-ID: <1990Mar3.045506.6775@agate.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Much as i find the discussions on paganism and satanism
interesting,
they have gone beyond any reasonable connection with skepticism. Could we
please move them to email and/or other
newsgroups?
Thanks.
-George
*******************************************************************************
George William Herbert JOAT For Hire: Anything, Anywhere: My Price
UCB Naval Architecture undergrad: Engineering with a Bouyant Attitude
:-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu ||||||||||| "What do I have to do to convince
you?"-Q
gwh@soda.berkeley.edu |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
"Die."-Worf
maniac@garnet.berkeley.edu||"Very good, Worf. Eaten any good books
recently?"-Q
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Msg #: 899 SKEP Subboard
From: MIKE L HARVEY Sent: 03-03-90 18:23
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:21
Re: NEWS FLASH
From: mlh@flash.bellcore.com (Mike L Harvey)
Date: 3 Mar 90 05:40:36 GMT
Organization: The Heart of Darkness
Message-ID: <20552@bellcore.bellcore.com>
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,sci.skeptic
Well, there has been another mysterious
disappearance off the coast of Bermuda,
scene of many strange incidents over the
years.
Today the Bermuda Triangle disappeared
without a trace...
"There's just *no* sign of it. It's
as though it never existed at all," is
how one eyewitness described the scene.
What I gave up for Lent: All hope for Hi Ho Silver.
Mike Harvey Internet: mlh@mookie.bellcore.com uucp:
bellcore!thumper!mlh
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Msg #: 900 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 03-03-90 18:23
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:21
Re: (R) PAGANISM AND SATANISM
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 4 Mar 90 00:34:52 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10564@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1990Mar3.045506.6775@agate.berkeley.edu> gwh@OCF.Berkeley.EDU
(George William Herbert) writes:
> Much as i find the discussions on paganism and satanism
interesting,
>they have gone beyond any reasonable connection with skepticism. Could
we
>please move them to email and/or other newsgroups?
Golly, George, you'd better inform the Bay Area Skeptics and the
Committee for Skeptical Examination of Religion right away!
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
"The time is gone, the song is over.
Thought I'd something more to say." - Roger Waters, Time
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Msg #: 901 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL JOHNSON Sent: 03-03-90 18:23
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:22
Re: (R) BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: paj@mrcu (Paul Johnson)
Date: 2 Mar 90 09:32:11 GMT
Organization: GEC-Marconi Research Centre, Great Baddow, UK
Message-ID: <455@argus.mrcu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
>In article <2166@rodan.acs.syr.edu>, clallen@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Charles
>L Allen) writes:
>>
>> A couple of weeks ago I saw a segement on TV(UNSOLVED MYSTERIES),
>> about a recurring phenomenon in England called 'field circles'.
>
> I just saw this... I think it was National Geographic Magazine or
> Air and Space Magazine... Anyway, the explanation was that the
circles
> were caused by ancient burial mounds. The mounds have long been
worn
> down or leveled by farmers but the disturbance in the ground
causes
> water to not be distributed evenly in the ground. Thus you get
> some crops being brown along the edges. The magazine showed an
arial
> view and there are many rings, some overlapping each other.
This is true, but it is not what we are talking about. The crop
"ancient burial mounds" and other archeological features are irregular
shapes which can be spotted ba ariel photography. Last summer was
long and dry in the UK, so the archeologists had a lot of success.
(UK readers: during the summer, have a look at fields you pass in cars
or trains. Chances are some of them will have long strips of uneven
growth. These are the remains of medieval strip farms when every
peasant had his own little patch)
However, the field circles mentioned on TV and in the book "Circular
Evidence" are not of this sort. They are stands of wheat or corn
which have large circular areas flattened in a very strange way. The
odd points are:
A: The areas are perfectly circular (to within a 1 or 2 % I think).
B: The corn has been flattened by bending each stem near ground level
so that it lies pointing around the circle.
C: A common configuration is one large circle and 2 or 4 smaller
circles at angles of 180, 90 or 60 degrees (like there should have
been more to make up a regular hexagon)
D: No footprints or marks through the corn to get to the circles.
E: Diameter varies, but can be up to 10-20 meters. These things are
big.
Various explanations have been proposed: freak wind conditions (seems
rather regular behaviour for wind), peculiar hoaxers (would need to
be very ingenious and careful: flattening corn in this way manually is
difficult) , flying saucers landing (why only on standing corn? why
don't they get out? If they want to be known, why not make themselves
obvious and if they do not, why leave such noticable clues?)
I personally favour the wind theory. First, these circles seem to
appear in very particular locations (downwind of small isolated hills)
during particular weather conditions (light breeze, certain
temperature conditions). Secondly, I fly hang gliders, and so spend a
large amount of time in fields watching the wind. I once saw a small
(1 metre) circle of grass being flattened in exactly the same way, and
have heard another pilot report of a big area of flattened grass in
the middle of the field (he was flying over it at the time: those of
us on the ground saw nothing: the circle was gone by the time the next
pilot (me) went over). I do not know about the large circle, but the
small one was stationary and lasted about a minute after it was
noticed. Of course, being green grass, it disappeared after the wind
that caused it stopped.
As I recall, there was no wind and a high pressure area was over the
UK causing an inversion with occasional thermals punching through it.
There are no hills in the area (we get towed up) but there were hedges
and farm buildings nearby. This was a year or two ago.
I seem to recall seing in the New Scientist a theory involving
cylindrical vortices rolling off the hills, turning vertical and then
standing in one place. Sorry I can't recall the details.
Paul.
--
Paul Johnson UUCP:
!mcvax!ukc!gec-mrc!paj
--------------------------------!-------------------------|-------------------
GEC-Marconi Research is not | Telex: 995016 GECRES G | Tel: +44 245
73331
responsible for my opinions. | Inet: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc | Fax: +44 245
75244
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Msg #: 902 SKEP Subboard
From: R'YKANDAR KORRA'TI Sent: 03-05-90 12:47
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:23
Re: (R) DEFINITION OF SATANIS
From: phoenix@ms.uky.edu (R'ykandar Korra'ti)
Date: 3 Mar 90 19:06:33 GMT
Organization: El'n'tk National Spaceport, Mission Control
Message-ID: <14411@s.ms.uky.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
In article <10550@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>In some article, phoenix@ms.uky.edu (R'ykandar Korra'ti) (me) wrote:
>>Tim -
>> I know that you are not what could be called friendly to the
existance
>>of the alt.pagan newsgroup.
>Why do you say that? I supported the creation of such a newsgroup; I
>did prefer a more inclusive name, but that doesn't make me hostile to
>the group as it was formed.
All I saw were posts opposing the creation of a neopaganism
newsgroups, and your repeated claims that the vote/poll showing support
for it was fraudulant, and your attacks upon the person trying to get
it started. From this, I made my opinion statement.
>>I know that you also have personal objections to
>>neopaganism as a whole.
>I do? Again, I am unsure where you are getting this from. All
>political and religious groups have problems, and Neo-Paganism is no
>exception. But pointing out its prejudice against Satanists and
>other problems such as widespread historical inaccuracy doesn't make
>me an enemy of "neopaganism as a whole" any more than pointing out
>institutionalized misogyny in Orthodox Judaism makes me an
>anti-Semite. Of course, both Orthodox Jews and Neo-Pagans find it
>easier to tar me with this brush than to respond substantially
>to my criticisms.
My opinions and impressions have been based entirely upon the
contents of _your_ messages. I've tried to ignore the responses to
your messages when justifying this opinion to myself before I posted
my message containing these comments. Also, I didn't call you an "enemy"
of Neopaganism (which implies that I think you are trying to eliminate
it); simply that you have objections, from what I've seen, to a _lot_
of it. There's a big difference.
Also, you imply - whether you intend to or not - that I prefer
to "tar you with some brush" which I, from my following statement,
clearly don't consider a "brush." I really _don't_ care whether or not
you "like" the neopagan movements.
>> But why the hell do you insist upon taking one or two twits and
holding
>>them up as examples of the REST of us? I find your statement here to not
only
>>be unfounded but insulting. Are all Mormans like the twits in Ohio which
>>participated in the ritual murders? No. Are all conservatives really
fascists
>>in democratic clothing? No. Are all liberals commies? No. So why do you
insist
>>upon calling all neopagans names based upon the opinions of what in my
>>experience has been a _very small_ minority of people? At best it's a
double
>>standard; at worst it's vindicitive and mean-spirited.
>First of all, please keep your Red-bashing to yourself. The word
>"commie" is a nasty political slur which has been used to ruin
>thousands of lives in the United States and to kill millions of foreign
>nationals. It has no more place in civilized discourse than does the
>word "nigger". If you have objections to Communism, please state them
>as such.
I was using the word for effect. As a former member of the radical
left wing (and now all over the board politically, as it occurred to me
that dogma on one side is no better than dogma on the other), would think
that I'd have the right (no pun intended). I still have sympathy for
the ideals of the left wing - I simply think that proper execution is
not possible in this world.
I also find it interesting that you have no objections to my
"slandering" the right wing by associating it with fascism. Why didn't
you? It's been used just as often for just the same goals. It has been
used to ruin thousands of lives all over the globe, and has resulted in
the death of millions of foreign nationals.
>Your repeated misinterpretations and exagerrations of my remarks make
>it clear that you're locked into a rather common religious mindset; all
>criticism from without the community is by nature unjustified and
>offensive, and proves bias against the community.
And you call _me_ guilty of making blanket assumptions about
individuals? I at least studied _several_ of your posts (for the last
few months); you read one and make an opinion about me that I find
highly opinionated and insulting - not to mention entirely inaccurate.
I regularlly discuss neopaganism on predominantly Christian
networks. I listen to what they have to say because I know that virtually
_everybody_ can contribute, by what I consider to be the very _definition_
of neopagan beliefs. (Not everyone believes this, fine, I doubt you can
find _anything_ that _everybody_ believes...)
>Wake up; no group is all-good, and yours is no exception.
"Wake up." Clever.
"No group is all-good." No kidding, guy. Again, you're the one
ascribing beliefs and sentements without basis. I'm fully aware of
problems in neopaganism; I've commented upon them in the past, in
other forums (knowledge of which I do not expect you to have); but
somehow, I've just managed to piss fewer people off than you have.
While being effective. Perhaps there are method other than the 4x4
blow.
I think that _every_ group I'm in has problems; that is simply
the nature of things. To believe otherwise would be silly.
>It's clear that to you, it is "antagnistic and unfounded" to point out
>*any* characteristic problem of Neo-Paganism.
I make one statement stating that I think you're off base (because
in my experience, your statements _have_ been off base) and you make
such a blanket statement? Please! Follow your own rules!
>>[My statement on religious liberties]
>Well said, except for the continuation of gratuitous Red-bashing.
>There is a rather insulting assumption that all your readers will
>find left-wing politics distasteful.
This is the United States of America. In general, this is a
correct assumption. I know from personal experience. It's called
"playing to your audience." In other circles (no pun intended) I
would have picked the bugaboo of that group. (Note the use of the
word "bugaboo" both here AND in my previous post. It's used similarly
to "boogeyman" - which screams that I have no appreciation for their fear
of the group in mention. Pay attention to the subtile points if
you want to get the entire message.)
I didn't _do_ any "red bashing" here; you read it into the
message. If I've done that to yours, my apologies; but what I still
consider to be the mean and vindictive tone of your reply makes it
more, not less, likely.
The point still stands. You strongly implied that all neopagans
have a belief that in my personal experience (_as I stated in my
original message) is simply _not_ _true_. You didn't _state_ this,
no, but you _did_ strongly imply it. I responded to this; you reply
with a list of opinions about me that seem formed entirely from
one source:
The fact that I disagreed with you.
I can repect a lot of things. I can't respect that.
- R'ykandar.
--
| R'ykandar Korra'ti | Editor, LOW ORBIT | PLink: Skywise | CIS 72406,370
|
| Elfinkind, Unite! | phoenix@ms.uky.edu | phoenix%ms.uky.edu@ukcc.bitnet
|
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Msg #: 903 SKEP Subboard
From: THE JADE PIPER,,, Sent: 03-05-90 12:47
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:23
Re: (R) SATANISM: MYTH AND TR
From: schmidea@clutx.clarkson.edu (The Jade Piper,,,)
Date: 4 Mar 90 02:48:35 GMT
Organization: Clarkson University, Potsdam, NY
Message-ID: <1990Mar4.024835.6086@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
From article <10551@hoptoad.uucp>, by tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney):
> From article <10483@hoptoad.uucp>, by tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney):
>>> Given that these factors added up to simple fraud in the case of
Lauren
>>> Stratford (Laurel Wilson), it is plain that the similar stories by
such
>>> people as Mike Warnke, John Todd Collins, Stormie Omartian, and
>>> Michelle Smith must be considered presumptively false until they come
>>> up to certain minimum standards of evidence.
>
[ I said it wasn't plain, Tim pointed out the last sentence. ]
Point. Either I misread it or missed it entirely. I don't feel
that
they should be considered automaticaly false, but there must be some form
of
corroberating evidence.
>
>> I don't think there is any "Satanic conspiracy", I think that
there
>>are some seriously twisted people that have chosen to identify with a
deity
>>that is historicly known as evil.
>
> I take it that you mean "witches", historically seen as evil? I have
> to say I find your statement rather offensive. I have known many
> witches, and few if any of them were "seriously twisted". Their
> motives in identifying themselves with an historical symbol of evil are
> first, to identify their sympathies more with the victims of Christian
> intolerance than with the perpetrators (much the same can be said of
> Templars and Satanists, of course), and second, to express personal
> sympathy for those mythological structures that Christianity opposed
> and demonized. They are intelligent adversaries of the evils of the
> Christian Church for the most part, not "seriously twisted people" as
> per your stereotype.
>
Stunned disbelief and amazement.
I have no CLUE on how you derived the meaning of witch from that
sentence. Well, perhaps that some Satanists call themselves witches, but
other
than that, I'm shocked at your reply. The "real" witches, in my mind, are
the
followers of Wicca, of which my girlfriend is. As far as I know, the
Earth
Goddess has never been identifyed as evil. What I'm talking about, since
you *obviously* missed it, is that there are people who are mentally
unstable
that have chosen to follow the worship of some historicly evil deities.
The
deities I had in mind, since I must spell it out for you, are Satan, Set,
and
Kali. Of all the witches that *I* know, none had ever identified
themselves
with that group or any other gods of a similar nature.
You read points into my article that were nowhere *near* what I
meant, and.... I just stunned on how far you missed the point. And the
tone of your article implys a strong anti-establishment Xian attitude.
Etiher
you got spanked with a bible once to often in your youth, or something.
Wow.
You have my deepest symphathies, I hope you were able to find some
healing.
>>I'm not saying that there is any
>>organizational ties between the incidents.
>
> Well, that's big of you. It would be even bigger if there were any
> incidents to explain. The drug dealers in Matamoros didn't call
[ stuff deleted ]
>
> (Note that I am *not* arguing that "they weren't real Satanists,
> because real Satanists wouldn't do that", the way many Christians do
> when faced with examples of the historical intolerance of their
> religion. I'm saying the acts were not Satanically inspired because
> the perpetrators initially said they weren't Satanically inspired, and
> changed their stories only when it became convenient to displace
> responsibility; and because the supposed "sacrifices" were not ritual
> killings.)
> --
> Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
I'm not saying they were either. I agree that they probably
changed
their stories too. What I'm talking about, and always have been, about
the
lone wolf or 3 to 6 man group that would kidnap a runaway or prostitute
and
use them as a sacrifice. If you've never encountered that type in your
travels
then They have blessed you (Pop Sky & Mom Earth). The cult of Kali was
very
hard for the english to find, and they were huge. Those lone
practitioners
will be damn hard to find.
Tim, you missed the point of about 80% of what I was saying. If I
didn't communicate properly, than I'm sorry. But I'm pretty sure I made
myself as clear as possible.
Wow.
Jade -- the man who would be king (of the East).
schmidea@clutx.clarkson.edu
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 904 SKEP Subboard
From: MIKE VAN PELT Sent: 03-05-90 12:47
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:24
Re: (R) NEWS FLASH! BERMUDA
From: mvp@v7fs1.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt)
Date: 3 Mar 90 10:43:12 GMT
Organization: Video 7 + G2 = Headland Technology
Message-ID: <1793@v7fs1.UUCP>
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,sci.skeptic
In article <20552@bellcore.bellcore.com> mlh@flash.UUCP (Mike L Harvey)
writes:
> Today the Bermuda Triangle disappeared without a trace...
That's true, I haven't heard anything about the Deadly Bermuda Triangle
in years. I had wondered what had happened to it.
Has anyone read Lawrence Kusche's book, _The Bermuda Triangle Mystery,
Solved_? It's must reading for anyone interested in the BT stories.
Where the research for most BT books only goes as far as the previous
BT book (and improves on all it's stories!) Kusche went back to the
original newspaper accounts, _Lloyd's Registry of Shipping_, and the
original Coast Guard and Weather Service reports. It's amazing how
many of those 'mysterious disapperances' are not so mysterious after
all.
Oops, this is crossposted to talk.bizarre... I need some bizarreness.
Well, maybe my .signature will do...
--
Mike Van Pelt Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde,
Headland Technology Go soak your head in a good strong insecticide,
(Was: Video 7) Slosh it around and impregnate your brain
...ames!vsi1!v7fs1!mvp With dichlordiphenyltrichloroethane.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 905 SKEP Subboard
From: TOBY@R1.CS.MAN.AC.UK Sent: 03-05-90 12:48
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:24
Re: SKEPTICAL MAGAZINE: GOOD
From: toby@r1.cs.man.ac.uk
Date: 3 Mar 90 13:53:39 GMT
Organization: University of Manchester, UK
Message-ID: <1029@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Read the
THE BRITISH & IRISH SKEPTIC magazine
Why not join us in investigating claims of the paranormal---UFOs, alien
abductions, ghosts, homeopathy, faith-healing, astrology, moving statues,
metal bending, crystals, mediums... etc...
--- these are just SOME of the topics regularly covered in the
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plus news, reviews, regular columns, comment, cartoons
and much much more!
TRY IT --- YOU'LL LIKE IT!
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Back issues of the BIS are also available, at #1.50 each postpaid.
SEND FOR A SAMPLE ISSUE NOW!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toby Howard Computer Science Department, University of Manchester,
Lecturer Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL, U.K.
janet: toby@uk.ac.man.cs.p1
internet: toby%p1.cs.man.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
earn/bitnet: toby%uk.ac.man.cs.p1@UKACRL
uucp: ...!ukc!mup1!toby voice: +44 61-275-6274
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toby Howard Computer Science Department, University of Manchester,
Lecturer Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL, U.K.
janet: toby@uk.ac.man.cs.p1
internet: toby%p1.cs.man.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
earn/bitnet: toby%uk.ac.man.cs.p1@UKACRL
uucp: ...!ukc!mup1!toby voice: +44 61-275-6274
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Msg #: 906 SKEP Subboard
From: DON STEINY Sent: 03-05-90 12:49
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:24
Re: COLD FUSION STILL WARM
From: steiny@hpcupt1.HP.COM (Don Steiny)
Date: 3 Mar 90 17:53:52 GMT
Organization: Don Steiny Software
Message-ID: <-284609993@hpcupt1.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
The Wall Street Journal, March 2, 1990 has an article titled
"'Cold Fusion' Research Dispels Some Doubts."
The article basically says that several groups have reproduced
two of the results claimed by Pons and Fleischmann, especially
exess tritum and excess heat. According to the the WSJ,
a "growing number of experiments suggest that the phenomenon can't
be written off as scientific error."
Scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico
have detected significant production of tritium, which can
be the byproduct of nuclear reactions, in several of their latest
cold fusion experiments.
Large amounts of tritum also have been detected in cold fusion
experiments at the Bhabha Atomic Research Center near Bombay
India, and at the Texas A&M University at College Station.
Small amounts of excess tritum in cold fusion experimental
"cells"
have been reported by scientists at Oak Ridge National Laboratory
in Tennessee and at Case-Western Reserve University in Cleveland.
The article goes on to say that the results are not reproducable
at will. The scientists have been setting up several cells and
monitoring them. Suddenly, for reasons not yet understood, some
cells will begin to produce heat and excess tritium.
In india, at the Bhabha Atomic Research Center, the Indian
scientists
have worked for 25 years with Canadian-designed atomic reactors which
require careful monitoring of the tritium levels of the water and the air
surrounding them. Because of the the article says, they have become
the world's leading experts at monitoring tritium. They have found
tritium levels of 20,000 times normal in their experiments.
At Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Charles Scott says: "we feel
that
we have incontrovertible evidence that we've detected excess energy" in
the form of heat. Mr. Scott says that he is gettin 5% to 10% more energy
from the experiments than is being put into the cells.
Don Steiny
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Msg #: 907 SKEP Subboard
From: RICH STREBENDT Sent: 03-05-90 12:49
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:38
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: res@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt)
Date: 4 Mar 90 05:06:07 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Message-ID: <14098@cbnewsc.ATT.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
In article <233@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM>, howard@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM
(Howard Steel) writes:
> In article <13982@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> res@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt)
writes:
> >Prior to another appearance of Geller on Johnny Carson's show, another
> >guest (I think it was Dr. Joyce Brothers, but I may be mistaken)
> >happened upon some bent nails being held by a prop man. She replaced
> >the bent nails with straight ones. Uri was strangely unable to bend
> >nails onstage that evening!
>
> Not to open a debate on Geller, (who needs it), but the above story
sounds
> rather suspicious in and of itself. Dr. Bros. just happened upon some
prop
> man, who just happened to be holding some bent nails, and just happened
to
> have a load of straight nails with her (as any good psychologist would),
and
> just happened to either convince the prop man to go along with her
(hypnosis?)
> or without his knowledge removed and replaced the nails the prop man was
> holding. Enough.
Sorry, it was late when I posted the story above, and I simplified it
a bit. Also, I am giving the story from memory, so some of the
particulars may not be correct. My recollection of the story is that
the guest (Dr. Brothers?) found some bent nails in an area in which
props are held prior to their use on the show. There was a prop man
watching over all of the props for that evening. She obtained some
similar, unbent, nails (from a carpenter working backstage?) and
replaced the "damaged" nails with new ones, as a "favor" to her
"friend" Mr. Geller (as she told the prop man). Uri's attempt
to "bend" nails on the show that night flopped.
Rich Strebendt
...!att!ihlpb!res
r.strebendt@att.com
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Msg #: 908 SKEP Subboard
From: MIKE L HARVEY Sent: 03-05-90 12:49
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:26
Re: (R) NEWS FLASH! BERMUDA
From: mlh@flash.bellcore.com (Mike L Harvey)
Date: 4 Mar 90 07:58:51 GMT
Organization: The Heart of Darkness
Message-ID: <20564@bellcore.bellcore.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1793@v7fs1.UUCP> mvp@v7fs1.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>In article <20552@bellcore.bellcore.com> mlh@flash.UUCP (Mike L Harvey)
writes:
>> Today the Bermuda Triangle disappeared without a trace...
>
>That's true, I haven't heard anything about the Deadly Bermuda Triangle
>in years. I had wondered what had happened to it.
>
>Has anyone read Lawrence Kusche's book, _The Bermuda Triangle Mystery,
>Solved_? It's must reading for anyone interested in the BT stories.
YES! Great Book! I had read the book by Charles Berlitz
(was that the guy's name?) and seen him on tv telling about
some of the supposed things that had happened. I had also
gotten some other books on the topic, but after I read
TBTMS, I chucked the others out, and gave up on the
whole thing... After all, you can't argue with the facts
(which Berlitz and co. had conveniently forgotten or
misrepresented.)
>Where the research for most BT books only goes as far as the previous
>BT book (and improves on all it's stories!) Kusche went back to the
>original newspaper accounts, _Lloyd's Registry of Shipping_, and the
>original Coast Guard and Weather Service reports. It's amazing how
>many of those 'mysterious disapperances' are not so mysterious after
>all.
I liked the part about Flight 19. To compare the BT enthusiasts'
version of events, and the debunkers' version is pretty
hilarious. The enthusiasts make the disappearance sound
mysterious, solely by leaving out most of the known facts.
>
>Oops, this is crossposted to talk.bizarre...
I moved it back. Not that there's really much to discuss
on the subject of the BT (maybe that's why it's disappeared)
except the willingness of the public to believe anything
that's in print or on tv.
What I gave up for Lent: All hope for Hi Ho Silver.
Mike Harvey Internet: mlh@mookie.bellcore.com uucp:
bellcore!thumper!mlh
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Msg #: 909 SKEP Subboard
From: RANJAN MUTTIAH Sent: 03-05-90 12:50
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:26
Re: (R) NEWS FLASH! BERMUDA
From: g2g@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Ranjan Muttiah)
Date: 4 Mar 90 16:48:57 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <8109@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <20564@bellcore.bellcore.com> mlh@flash.UUCP (Mike L Harvey)
writes:
> I moved it back. Not that there's really much to discuss
> on the subject of the BT (maybe that's why it's disappeared)
What about Atlantis ? It was confirmed by Plato I believe.
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Msg #: 910 SKEP Subboard
From: L.A. MORAN Sent: 03-05-90 12:50
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 00:26
Re: BERMUDA TRIANGLE
From: lamoran@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (L.A. Moran)
Date: 4 Mar 90 20:27:20 GMT
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Message-ID: <1990Mar4.202720.20799@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
What an amazing coincidence that the topic of the Bermuda Triangle
should
come up today! In the Toronto Star (circulation 520,000) on this day
(Sunday,
March 4, 1990) there is a major article on the Bermuda Triangle. It is
written
by the paper's leading "science writer" and covers almost two full pages
complete with maps and excellent drawings. The headline is:
"BERMUDA TRIANGLE Unlocking Secrets of Deadly Puzzle
Canadian scientist's theory was rejected but now his
explanation of undersea gas hydrates gains credence
as cause of spooky disappearances."
The article highlights the Cyclops sinking, the disappearance of
Flight
19, the sinking of the Ithaca Island and the Milton Iatrides, and the
downing
of a USAF Phantom II in 1971 as examples of mysteries. ("These are some of
the better-known mysteries of the triangle, which has taken the lives of
some
1,000 people, most of them gone in a flash, without a cry or a trace.")
The author, one Jack Miller who claims to be a science writer, talks
of
"...the spooky 110-year history of The Bermuda Triangle..." and the
"...more
than 150 ships and planes that vanished in the stretch of water between
Bermuda, Puerto Rico and the Florida coast...". He claims that scientists
at the recent AAAS meeting in New Orleans have shown that giant bubbles of
methane rising from the ocean floor are responsible for the ship sinkings
and aircraft crashes!
Of significant interest to the readers of this newsgroup is the
following
paragraph which is imbedded in the article:
"Over the years, many serious scientists have scoffed at
at the idea of a mystery, blaming the incidents on a mixture
of sudden storms, sloppy navigation, mechanical failures,
sensational and irresponsible reporting. When colorful
theorists put the blame on everything from space aliens
to death rays coming up from the lost continent of Atlantis,
the scoffers grew fiercer and sounded all the more convincing."
If the reporter believes this then why look for kooky explanations of non-
mysteries? I have written a letter to the editor to complain about this
"sensational and irresponsible" reporting. It seems that even when a myth
is thoroughly debunked there are still those who cling to irrationality.
-Larry Moran
P.S. The Toronto Star is usually a reputable newspaper. It is embarassing
that
such a ridiculous article would appear in this city's leading
newspaper.
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Msg #: 911 SKEP Subboard
From: LARRY SNYDER Sent: 03-06-90 21:25
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:17
Re: (R) WHAT'S THE LATEST VER
From: larry@nstar.UUCP (Larry Snyder)
Date: 5 Mar 90 17:31:17 GMT
Organization: Northern Star Communications, Notre Dame, IN USA
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
test
tet
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Msg #: 912 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL GILLINGWATER Sent: 03-06-90 21:25
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:17
Re: GENUINE EARTHQUAKE PREDIC
From: paul@actrix.co.nz (Paul Gillingwater)
Date: 3 Mar 90 21:56:21 GMT
Organization: Actrix Public Access UNIX, Wellington, New Zealand
Message-ID: <1990Mar3.215621.26104@actrix.co.nz>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,nz.general
Hi,
Here in New Zealand we are quite used to earthquakes. We have them
fairly regularly, and our scientists are getting pretty good at the
science of seismology. However even they say that no-one, not even
them, can predict earthquakes on a short-term basis.
Until now, or so it seems. Dr Thomas Baker (a medical practitioner)
claims to have predicted an earthquake. Recently in NZ we had a force
5.5 (Richter scale) quake, which rattled a few dishes and broke a few
windows. In a public notice published in a Wellington newspaper some
nine days before the quake, Dr Baker predicted successfully the time and
magnitude of the quake, to within a few hours. And now he says an even
bigger one is on the way....
His latest prediction, which he has gone public with because "it
disturbed me so much I had to speak out", is that there will be a major
earthquake in New Zealand on March 10th, 1990. That's in just under a
week. He says it will be around force eight on the Richter scale, and
will be centred in Lower Hutt (a small satellite city of Wellington, at
the southern tip of the North Island of New Zealand. He predicts it
will strike at around 1 a.m., New Zealand time (we're 12 hours ahead of
GMT).
I guess this falls into the category of a testable proposition, huh
guys? If there *is* a force 8 in Wellington, this will upset a LOT of
people (and crockery), so I guess even the usually insular US news
gathering media will sit up and take notice if it happens. Stay
tuned...
--
Paul Gillingwater, paul@actrix.co.nz
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Msg #: 913 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL GILLINGWATER Sent: 03-06-90 21:25
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:39
Re: (R) BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: paul@actrix.co.nz (Paul Gillingwater)
Date: 3 Mar 90 22:00:07 GMT
Organization: Actrix Public Access UNIX, Wellington, New Zealand
Message-ID: <1990Mar3.220007.26173@actrix.co.nz>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1370@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
writes:
>I found the article on these circles. It was in the February/March 1990
>issue of the Smithsonian's "Air and Space" magazine. A picture showed
>a green field of crops with brown circles everywhere. The explanation
>was that they were caused by bronze age burial mounds once being there.
Hmmm... we've had similar occurences here in NZ, with mysterious
circules appearing in fields. However, NZ was only settled this
millenium... and certainly never had any bronze-age burial mounds...
--
Paul Gillingwater, paul@actrix.co.nz
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Msg #: 914 SKEP Subboard
From: BXR307@CSC.ANU.OZ Sent: 03-06-90 21:26
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:18
Re: (R) GENUINE EARTHQUAKE PR
From: bxr307@csc.anu.oz
Date: 6 Mar 90 14:36:57 GMT
Organization: Computer Services, Australian National University
Message-ID: <1661.25f3cb09@csc.anu.oz>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1990Mar3.215621.26104@actrix.co.nz>, paul@actrix.co.nz (Paul
Gillingwater) writes:
> Hi,
>
> Here in New Zealand we are quite used to earthquakes. We have them
> fairly regularly, and our scientists are getting pretty good at the
> science of seismology. However even they say that no-one, not even
> them, can predict earthquakes on a short-term basis.
>
> Until now, or so it seems. Dr Thomas Baker (a medical practitioner)
> claims to have predicted an earthquake. Recently in NZ we had a force
> 5.5 (Richter scale) quake, which rattled a few dishes and broke a few
> windows. In a public notice published in a Wellington newspaper some
> nine days before the quake, Dr Baker predicted successfully the time and
> magnitude of the quake, to within a few hours. And now he says an even
> bigger one is on the way....
>
> His latest prediction, which he has gone public with because "it
> disturbed me so much I had to speak out", is that there will be a major
> earthquake in New Zealand on March 10th, 1990. That's in just under a
> week. He says it will be around force eight on the Richter scale, and
> will be centred in Lower Hutt (a small satellite city of Wellington, at
> the southern tip of the North Island of New Zealand. He predicts it
> will strike at around 1 a.m., New Zealand time (we're 12 hours ahead of
> GMT).
>
> I guess this falls into the category of a testable proposition, huh
> guys? If there *is* a force 8 in Wellington, this will upset a LOT of
> people (and crockery), so I guess even the usually insular US news
> gathering media will sit up and take notice if it happens. Stay
> tuned...
> --
This of course all depends on whether or not Dr.Baker is making
this
prediction as a qualified seismologist or a fringe crackpot. If its the
former
then I presume he has some valid scientific method to back up his
prediction.
If its the later then I'll give 10:1 odds against him being accurate with
his
prediction. :-)
Brian Ross
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Msg #: 915 SKEP Subboard
From: DR. SANIO Sent: 03-07-90 02:06
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:18
Re: (R) NON-OPTICAL EM TRANSM
From: es@sinix.UUCP (Dr. Sanio)
Date: 5 Mar 90 20:06:48 GMT
Organization: Siemens AG, DI ST SP4, Munich
Message-ID: <1040@athen.sinix.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <855@ucs.UAlberta.CA> RHOPGOOD@ucs.UAlberta.CA writes:
>In article <90058.112459SML108@psuvm.psu.edu>, SML108@psuvm.psu.edu
writes:
>>There has yet to be a well designed ESP experiment with a positive
result.
>>
>>Until such incident occurs, ESP does not exist...
>>
>>Scott Le Grand aka sml108@psuvm.psu.edu
>
>Question -- did the atom not exist 400/500 years ago because "science"
could
>not prove it?
>
The atom was postulated long before it was "proven". The postulate was
that
there would be something which couldn't be split furthermore (atom, greek:
the
unsplittable). With growing knowledge, that was modified in the way "not
to
be split be chemical measures", long before nuclear fission.
The postulate was stated from evidence (matter can be split
mechanically/chemi-
cally etc), knowledge (about elements) and hypotheses.
Belief didn't play a role, as far as I know.
With ESP, I see belief, lots of hypotheses, but no evidence.
>I wonder what you would be saying "IF" the future allows ESP to be proven
to
>your satisfaction
Personally, I would be faszinated by a new field of knowledge.
regards, es
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Msg #: 916 SKEP Subboard
From: MICHAEL O'CONNOR Sent: 03-07-90 14:41
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:18
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: moconnor@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Michael O'Connor)
Date: 2 Mar 90 16:50:15 GMT
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI
Message-ID: <189@vela.acs.oakland.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
I would not necessarily doubt the claims of Dr. Joyce Brothers with regard
to
fraud. In light of her game show antics, when she cheated to win (at the
time) large sums of money, I could easily see her looking for a scam -
especially in Uri Geller.
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Msg #: 917 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER SCOTT Sent: 03-07-90 14:43
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:18
Re: (R) NON-OPTICAL EM TRANSM
From: pjs@plato.JPL.NASA.gov (Peter Scott)
Date: 7 Mar 90 01:34:00 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Message-ID: <7310@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1040@athen.sinix.UUCP>, es@sinix.UUCP (Dr. Sanio) writes:
> >>There has yet to be a well designed ESP experiment with a positive
result.
> >>
> >>Until such incident occurs, ESP does not exist...
> >>
> >Question -- did the atom not exist 400/500 years ago because "science"
could
> >not prove it?
> >
> The atom was postulated long before it was "proven". The postulate was
that
> there would be something which couldn't be split furthermore (atom,
greek: the
> unsplittable). With growing knowledge, that was modified in the way "not
to
> be split be chemical measures", long before nuclear fission.
Not sure how this addresses the poster's point. Phlogiston and the ether
were postulated for a long time. More recent examples would be N-rays,
tidal-locking of Mercury's rotation, canals on Mars and cold nuclear
fusion.
(Actually some of those are just false observations compounded over many
researchers, but still close.) How does the fact that the atom was
postulated
for such a long time make it respectable?
Peter Scott (pjs@aristotle.jpl.nasa.gov)
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Msg #: 918 SKEP Subboard
From: ZEV SERO Sent: 03-07-90 14:43
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:19
Re: (R) GENUINE EARTHQUAKE PR
From: zvs@bby.oz.au (Zev Sero)
Date: 6 Mar 90 23:07:14 GMT
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge and Young Ltd.
Message-ID: <1990Mar6.230714.2867@melba.bby.oz.au>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Anyone remember some guy in South Australia about 10 years ago who
predicted an earthquake in Adelaide at a particular date and time?
Made a big fuss about it, and some people took him seriously and sold
houses or bought insurance or whatever. When the time came and
nothing happened, the whole thing seemed to fade away. I have a vague
recollection that the State government was looking into ways of
prosecuting him, but I've no idea whether anything came of it. Does
anyone know what happened?
--
Zev Sero - zvs@bby.oz.au
Megalomaniacs are simply people who know damn well they can run the
universe
better then God or the present governors. - Abner Doon (Orson S.
Card)
--
Zev Sero - zvs@bby.oz.au
Megalomaniacs are simply people who know damn well they can run the
universe
better then God or the present governors. - Abner Doon (Orson S.
Card)
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Msg #: 919 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL D. CROWLEY Sent: 03-07-90 14:44
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:19
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: aipdc@castle.ed.ac.uk (Paul D. Crowley)
Date: 4 Mar 90 15:37:31 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University Computing Service
Message-ID: <2586@castle.ed.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
In article <233@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM> howard@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM
(Howard Steel) writes:
>In article <13982@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> res@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt)
writes:
>
>>Prior to another appearance of Geller on Johnny Carson's show, another
>>guest (I think it was Dr. Joyce Brothers, but I may be mistaken)
>>happened upon some bent nails being held by a prop man. She replaced
>>the bent nails with straight ones. Uri was strangely unable to bend
>>nails onstage that evening!
>
>Not to open a debate on Geller, (who needs it), but the above story
sounds
>rather suspicious in and of itself. Dr. Bros. just happened upon some
prop
>man, who just happened to be holding some bent nails, and just happened
to
>have a load of straight nails with her (as any good psychologist would),
and
>just happened to either convince the prop man to go along with her
(hypnosis?)
>or without his knowledge removed and replaced the nails the prop man was
>holding. Enough.
I don't know what happened, but I can imagine...
Dr Brothers arrived an hour early, because the traffic wasn't as heavy
as she had expected it to be. She wanders around backstage for a bit and
sees a prop man put some bent nails in a velvet-lined box. Next to the
box is a box of straight nails. The prop man goes away. She thinks
"Hmmm...", opens the box, and replaces the bent nails with straight
ones. She pockets the bent nails and waits for the show.
That night, Geller is strangely unable to bend nails.
H
e
l
l
o
,
i
n
e
w
s
.
--
\/ o\ "I say we grease this rat-fuck son-of-a-bitch Paul D Crowley
/\__/ right now. No offense." - Aliens. aipdc@uk.ac.ed.castle
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Msg #: 920 SKEP Subboard
From: TORKIL HAMMER Sent: 03-07-90 14:44
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:19
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: torkil@psivax.UUCP (Torkil Hammer)
Date: 7 Mar 90 03:13:03 GMT
Organization: Pacesetter Systems Inc., Sylmar, CA
Message-ID: <3325@psivax.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
There is something funny about these telekinesers.
a. If a guy is in it for idealistic reasons, then why doesn't he
find a better audience than TV talk shows, which is about as
slimy as it can get?
b. If he is in it for money, then why is he risking his livelihood
on those talk shows instead of quietly making the gold in Fort Knox
dance over to him when nobody is watching it?
The logical conclusion is that he is a swindler trying for some
fast money. If he makes it past the talk show he might collect
on the lecture circuit. If not, he lost no money.
There was a king in Denmark who got it straight. He was approached
by a goldmaker who wanted the king to hire him. The king told him
to make his own gold for a much more profitable living instead.
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Msg #: 921 SKEP Subboard
From: DOUG PALMER Sent: 03-07-90 14:44
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:39
Re: (R) BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: dfp@munnari (Doug Palmer)
Date: 7 Mar 90 05:33:40 GMT
Message-ID: <3290@munnari.oz.au>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1370@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
writes:
>I found the article on these circles. It was in the February/March 1990
>issue of the Smithsonian's "Air and Space" magazine. A picture showed
>a green field of crops with brown circles everywhere. The explanation
>was that they were caused by bronze age burial mounds once being there.
What happens with these things is that the stuff buried under the ground
denies nutrients to the crops, so you get shorter, less healthy stuff.
It's
still standing up though.
- Dug
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Msg #: 922 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC PEPKE Sent: 03-07-90 22:41
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:39
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Date: 7 Mar 90 15:07:52 GMT
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
Message-ID: <536@fsu.scri.fsu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
In article <3325@psivax.UUCP> torkil@psivax.UUCP (Torkil Hammer) writes:
> The logical conclusion is that he is a swindler trying for some
> fast money. If he makes it past the talk show he might collect
> on the lecture circuit. If not, he lost no money.
The usual MO is to establish one's reputation and then go into
"consulting" for large, rich companies. Uri Geller pretends to help oil
companies look for oil. They have money to burn, and he helps them burn
it. A lot of it. One of Targ and Puthoff, I think, went into silver
futures for a while, although I may misremember this.
Eric Pepke INTERNET:
pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu
Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke@fsu
Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
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Msg #: 923 SKEP Subboard
From: ALEKSANDER MILEWSKI Sent: 03-07-90 22:41
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:20
Re: BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: mlevski@svcs1.UUCP (Aleksander Milewski)
Date: 7 Mar 90 03:01:45 GMT
Organization: Silicon Valley Computer Society, Sunnyvale, Ca.
Message-ID: <394@svcs1.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Does it strike anyone as unusual that the circles have only been seen in
what is or was the UK? (I say "was" to include New Zealand)
I would think that the wind effects (my favorite theory) would occur in
other
areas as well. (Canada is more like England than New Zealand, and if NZ
then
why not Australia?)
--Zandr Milewski - An open-minded skeptic.
--
Aleksandr Milewski = uunet!svcs1!mlevski = N6MOD = GEnie: ALEKSANDR
"I think there is a world market for about five computers"
--Thomas J. Watson, 1943
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Msg #: 924 SKEP Subboard
From: RANJAN MUTTIAH Sent: 03-07-90 22:41
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:20
Re: DID LEONARDO PRECEDE NEWT
From: g2g@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Ranjan Muttiah)
Date: 7 Mar 90 17:27:54 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <8209@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Any of you Leonardo watchers out there ? There is a most interesting
drawing in which he sketches out his studio. Then next to that
drawing is a rather strange addition. Remember that Leonardo used to
be rather erratic. He would draw anatomy and right next to it
he would do mathematics or convey his physical principles. The
mystrious drawing goes as follows:
+
\ \
\ \ \
\ \ \
\ \ \ |
\ \ . \.... |
-----------------
a b c
However, ab # bc and so on. leonardo doesn't have anything more on
it. It just could be that he was trying to illustrate something in
his studio or not! (That's why I posted in .skeptic :). Now Newton
in his proof of Kepler's second law used this same very argument but
instead ab was equal to bc and of course he introduced an impetus so
that the straight deviated into a curvature. Newton came almost a
century and a half after Leonardo. So was Leonardo onto something ?
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Msg #: 925 SKEP Subboard
From: CUP/ASG, MLO3-6/C9 16B, 223-328 Sent: 03-08-90 12:40
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:20
Re: MYSTERY CIRCLES - ANCIENT
From: klaes@wrksys.enet.dec.com (CUP/ASG, MLO3-6/C9 16B, 223-3283
07-Mar-1990 1340)
Date: 7 Mar 90 18:37:22 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Message-ID: <9003071836.AA17856@decwrl.dec.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In the February/March 1990 issue of SMITHSONIAN AIR & SPACE
magazine, there is a short article on aerial photographs of ancient
burial mounds in England. In the air photo shown, the mounds appear
as circles. The mounds themselves have long since worn away, leaving
only their circular form. The circles are the remains of ditches dug
around the mounds, plowed flat over the centuries (since 1500 B.C.).
The ditches were apparently filled with less richer (less prone to
retain water) soil, causing brown areas in the greenery. According
to the article, there are thousands of such burial sites all over
Great Britain and Ireland.
It is my opinion that the "mystery circles" may be caused by
these burial mounds. I do feel that they are of human origin of
some sort, though I will certainly not rule out natural phenomenon.
Larry Klaes klaes@wrksys.dec.com
or - ...!decwrl!wrksys.dec.com!klaes
or - klaes%wrksys.dec@decwrl.dec.com
or - klaes@wrksys.enet.dec.com
or - klaes%wrksys.enet.dec.com@uunet.uu.net
N = R*fgfpneflfifaL
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Msg #: 926 SKEP Subboard
From: BETSY PERRY Sent: 03-08-90 14:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:20
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: betsyp@apollo.HP.COM (Betsy Perry)
Date: 7 Mar 90 19:05:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division; Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <490e57b0.19080@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
In article <189@vela.acs.oakland.edu> moconnor@argo.acs.oakland.edu
(Michael O'Connor) writes:
>I would not necessarily doubt the claims of Dr. Joyce Brothers with
regard to
>fraud. In light of her game show antics, when she cheated to win (at the
>time) large sums of money, I could easily see her looking for a scam -
>especially in Uri Geller.
Dr. Brothers did *not* cheat in the 1950's game-show scandal; she was
explicitly
exonerated, I believe. Not all contestants on the tainted shows were
given
answers in advance.
--
Betsy Perry betsyp@apollo.hp.com
Apollo Division, Hewlett-Packard, Inc.
(her opinion doesn't matter, matter, matter, matter...)
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Msg #: 927 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL JOHNSON Sent: 03-08-90 14:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:20
Re: NEW AGE THINKERS (WAS RE:
From: paj@mrcu (Paul Johnson)
Date: 5 Mar 90 09:53:09 GMT
Organization: GEC-Marconi Research Centre, Great Baddow, UK
Message-ID: <456@argus.mrcu>
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,sci.skeptic,sci.misc,sci.physics
>In article <13857@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> tan@cbnewsc.ATT.COM
(william.m.tanenbaum) writes:
>#By the way, this "hundredth monkey" discussion has spawned a new
>#oxymoron:
>#
># "new age thinker"
>
>I beg to differ. New Age thinking is self consistent and (happens to be)
>for intuition and against knowledge. It is based on the notion that
science
>or rather technology has screwed up to a point where they want to go
>back to the Middle Ages and burn anybody who tries to understand nature.
>
>It is populist and dangerous.
>
>Torkil Hammer
OK. I have heard a few bits and pieces of philosophy labled "new
age" on TV, and have seen the label thrown around on this group,
mainly as a term of abuse or implying unsound thinking.
Can anyone out there explain what "new age thinkers" think? Any
definitive books? Any testable hypotheses?
From what I have heard so far, it seems to be a "myth mash" (to borrow
Terry Pratchet's fine phrase from "Strata"): a base of Eastern
Mystisism leavened with Astrology and spiced with Psi, Flying Sorcery,
Tarot, the I Ching and Green Politics (small note: the last should not
be judged by the company it sometimes keeps).
To comment on the note I quoted above, New Age Thinking may be self
consistent, but is is consistent with reality? This is where most
religions fall down (I don't know if NAT considers itself to be a
religion or a philosophy or what, but the point is the same).
Christianity is fairly self consitent (as long arguments with
Christians have shown me), but has had to change a great deal to be
able to claim reasonable consistency with the world.
If "science or rather technology has screwed up" then what are you
proposing in its place? (I asked this in an earlier note). Is
intuition a reliable guide to actions? If (as would seem probable)
people in authority who claimed divine guidance for their acts in the
past were in fact using intuition, then intuition seems to have a
rather poor record. A classic example is the 1st World War, where
thousands of muddy ghosts bear witness to the "inspiration" of their
generals and the "last big push" that was all that was needed for a
breakthrough. Another example is the Collectivisation of Farms in
various communist countries. The leaders claimed to be using science,
but it seems more likely they were working on dogmatic (hence
intuitionistic) grounds. They certainly refused to acknowledge that
collectivisation was not increasing production.
To throw out knowledge based approaches to the world simply because
they are not always right (and I admit there are sometimes mistakes,
sometimes big ones) seems to me to be throwing out the baby with the
bathwater. I very much doubt that intuition can do better, and would
expect it to do a lot worse, to the point of major collapse of society
should it ever be widely adopted.
Of course, I may be attacking a straw man here. If so, can anyone put
me right?
Paul
--
Paul Johnson UUCP:
!mcvax!ukc!gec-mrc!paj
--------------------------------!-------------------------|-------------------
GEC-Marconi Research is not | Telex: 995016 GECRES G | Tel: +44 245
73331
responsible for my opinions. | Inet: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc | Fax: +44 245
75244
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Msg #: 928 SKEP Subboard
From: JIM MERITT Sent: 03-08-90 14:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:21
Re: (R) NEW AGE THINKERS (WAS
From: jwm@stdb.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Date: 7 Mar 90 21:28:01 GMT
Organization: JHU-Applied Physics Laboratory
Message-ID: <4859@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
If you really wanna know, why not subscribe to the newage news group?
(talk.religion.newage)
Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily
represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts,
however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone.
jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu - or - jwm@aplvax.uucp - or - meritt%aplvm.BITNET
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Msg #: 929 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 03-08-90 19:38
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:21
Re: (R) BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 9 Mar 90 02:05:44 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10695@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
The evidence is also consistent with a secretive ritual magic group
doing circle rituals outside at night (which is a common enough
practice among Neo-Pagans). Contrary to a number of claims, skeptics
*have* been able to reproduce the circles by foot. The rise in the
number of circles over the last decade would be due to the common
phenomenon of "hiving", where a group undergoes a friendly divorce when
the size becomes unmanageable.
This is not an established fact, but I thought it was worth kicking
in. Many people use the term "hoaxers" to describe the people who may
be doing this; it seems never to have crossed their minds that someone
might actually have a *reason* to go walking around in circles in
fields in the dead of night. If so, the circles they leave in the
crops might be epiphenomenal, and they are not "hoaxers".
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
"Because there is something in you that I respect, and that makes me
desire
to have you for my enemy."
"On those terms, sir, I will accept your enmity or any man's."
- Shaw, "The Devil's Disciple"
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Msg #: 930 SKEP Subboard
From: BRUCE MACKEY Sent: 03-09-90 03:56
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:21
Re: BIGFOOT BIG MYTH?
From: brucem@hpindda.HP.COM (Bruce Mackey)
Date: 7 Mar 90 23:13:26 GMT
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
Message-ID: <44240002@hpindda.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
I haven't heard anything recently about BIGFOOT (sasquach sp?) and was
reminded of it by some pick-up truck comercial the other night.
What is the current status of this Mountain Myth? Have there been any
more
people claiming to have seen, slept with, or been kidnapped by Bigfoot?
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Msg #: 931 SKEP Subboard
From: HARRY LAUFMAN Sent: 03-09-90 07:47
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:21
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: LAUFMAN-H@osu-20.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Harry Laufman)
Date: 8 Mar 90 17:49:21 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio
Message-ID: <12572096622011@osu-20.ircc.ohio-state.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,sci.misc
Just what were Dr. Joyce Brothers "game show antics"? She won
choosing the topic professional boxing I believe, because she
considered it a finite topic, therefore readily memorizable. I
was not aware of any cheating, beyond theatrics.
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Msg #: 932 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 03-09-90 09:30
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:21
Re: (R) BIGFOOT BIG MYTH?
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 9 Mar 90 15:10:29 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10722@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <44240002@hpindda.HP.COM> brucem@hpindda.HP.COM (Bruce Mackey)
writes:
>What is the current status of this Mountain Myth? Have there been any
more
>people claiming to have seen, slept with, or been kidnapped by Bigfoot?
Yes, I believe Jessica Hahn has claimed this.
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
"When errors are found in old research, the relevant theories are
re-examined. When facts contradict theory, theory gets dumped. Is
that why the NLP people are unwilling to research their facts?"
-- Jerry Hollombe on sci.psychology
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Msg #: 933 SKEP Subboard
From: STEPHEN D CARTER Sent: 03-09-90 15:36
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:22
Re: (R) BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Stephen D Carter)
Date: 8 Mar 90 08:36:48 GMT
Organization: University of Sussex
Message-ID: <2327@syma.sussex.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From article <3290@munnari.oz.au>, by dfp@munnari (Doug Palmer):
>
> In article <1370@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov
(Sullivan) writes:
>>I found the article on these circles. It was in the February/March 1990
>>issue of the Smithsonian's "Air and Space" magazine. A picture showed
>>a green field of crops with brown circles everywhere. The explanation
>>was that they were caused by bronze age burial mounds once being there.
>
> What happens with these things is that the stuff buried under the ground
> denies nutrients to the crops, so you get shorter, less healthy stuff.
It's
> still standing up though.
>
> - Dug
May I point out to Doug, and some other respondents, that a CLEAR
difference is percieved between that 'Field Circles' and the effect of
old underground ruins. The latter are as Doug indeed describes, well
proven, and not an issue. The former are, as an earlier note describes,
flattened crops. To re-introduce this point is to set the discusison
back. Not helpful.
Stephen Carter, Systems Manager, The Administration,
The University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton BN1 9RH, UK
Tel: +44 273 678203 Fax: +44 273 678335 JANET:
stevedc@uk.ac.sussex.syma
EARN/BITNET : stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk UUCP: stevedc@syma.uucp
ARPA/INTERNET: stevedc%syma.sussex.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
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Msg #: 934 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL GILLINGWATER Sent: 03-09-90 19:45
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:22
Re: (R) GENUINE EARTHQUAKE PR
From: paul@actrix.co.nz (Paul Gillingwater)
Date: 8 Mar 90 20:19:58 GMT
Organization: Actrix Public Access UNIX, Wellington, New Zealand
Message-ID: <1990Mar8.201958.8527@actrix.co.nz>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1661.25f3cb09@csc.anu.oz> bxr307@csc.anu.oz writes:
>> Until now, or so it seems. Dr Thomas Baker (a medical practitioner)
>> claims to have predicted an earthquake.
>
> This of course all depends on whether or not Dr.Baker is making
this
>prediction as a qualified seismologist or a fringe crackpot. If its the
former
>then I presume he has some valid scientific method to back up his
prediction.
>If its the later then I'll give 10:1 odds against him being accurate with
his
>prediction. :-)
1 in 10? That's pretty good odds. I'd say more like 1 in 10,000. How
do you come up with those figure? No, he's not a seismologist. His
degree is in medicine. I think he's a very good doctor. But i've seen
no evidence to show his expertise in earth sciences. His method is
certainly not scientific. From the vague media descriptions i have seen
of them, it is something to do with listening to the rumbles... i
wonder if he uses a stethoscope? :-)
--
Paul Gillingwater, paul@actrix.co.nz
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Msg #: 935 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT FIRTH Sent: 03-10-90 15:40
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:22
Re: (R) BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth)
Date: 9 Mar 90 13:36:57 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute, Pittsburgh, PA
Message-ID: <6391@bd.sei.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
The answer is obvious: the circles are made by hedgehogs.
This explains why they are found in Britain, which has a
high population of the prickly critters, and also in New
Zealand, where the british hedgehog was introduced in the
nineteenth century.
The normal courting behaviour of the hedgehog, insofar as
anything the creature does can be said to be normal, is
for the male to spiral in on the female by walking around
her in ever-decreasing circles until contact occurs, at
which point we fade out to the sound of Wagner...
Britain, bu the way, is the only country with a hedgehog
hospital. It is called 'St Tiggywinkles', and people
send sick or injured hedgehogs to it from all over the
country. British Rail has a special delivery van that
brings them from the local railway station, packed in
British standard hedgehog boxes.
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Msg #: 936 SKEP Subboard
From: SANDY ZINN Sent: 03-10-90 16:40
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:22
Re: (R) NEW AGE THINKERS (WAS
From: sandyz@ntpdvp1.UUCP (Sandy Zinn)
Date: 9 Mar 90 23:46:21 GMT
Organization: Northern Telecom DMS-10 Div., Raleigh, NC
Message-ID: <347@ntpdvp1.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,sci.skeptic,sci.misc,sci.physics
> ># a new oxymoron:
> ># "new age thinker"
> >
> >I beg to differ. New Age thinking is self consistent and (happens to
be)
> >for intuition and against knowledge. It is based on the notion that
science
> >or rather technology has screwed up to a point where they want to go
> >back to the Middle Ages and burn anybody who tries to understand
nature.
> >
> >It is populist and dangerous.
> >
> >Torkil Hammer
>
> OK. I have heard a few bits and pieces of philosophy labled "new
> age" on TV, and have seen the label thrown around on this group,
> mainly as a term of abuse or implying unsound thinking.
>
> Can anyone out there explain what "new age thinkers" think? Any
> definitive books? Any testable hypotheses?
>
> To throw out knowledge based approaches to the world simply because
> they are not always right (and I admit there are sometimes mistakes,
> sometimes big ones) seems to me to be throwing out the baby with the
> bathwater.
In response to Paul Johnson's query for some substance about New Agers:
When I hear the term NEW AGE, I think of the book by Marilyn Ferguson,
_The Aquarian Conspiracy_. She summarizes several scientific/social/
philosophical phenomena which she feels are headed in a common direction.
This "movement" is very much concerned with a reformation of science as
well as society. Some of the scientific work she discusses is quite
legitimate and well respected (such as Nobel laureate Ilya Prigogine),
and some of it legitimate but not widely accepted (such as Pribram's
holographic-mind theories). The new approach to science which she &
others
advocate is not anti-technology but rather "pro-guided-technology".
Advances in scientific research are definitely promoted in this book;
because many of those advances are radical, simply new, or on the fringe
of theoretical knowledge, they generate a lot of controversy.
Ferguson is, incidentally, an editor of the _Brain/Mind Bulletin_,
devoted to "avant-garde"(?) neurophysiological/psychological news.
In my own terms I would say that the technocrats (i.e., those in charge
of technological applications, not usually the scientists) need a greater
*awareness* of the impact of technology on the world community.
There is stuff in Ferguson's book about "alternative relationships" and
"transcendant realities", and certainly the book is intended for
a broad audience, but I would hardly call it "dangerous". What
has happened is that a large segment of the population has latched
onto some of these ideas and popularized them to fit their needs.
An interesting question from my point of view is what are the needs
these people are trying to fill, and in what way do doctrines of
self-healing, extraordinary experiences, "human networking",
personal myth-making, etc., meet those needs?
Understanding of this phenomenon would provide information about our
society that could be put to intelligent use. What are the beliefs
of these people telling us about our world? If the purpose of knowledge
and reason is understanding and intelligent management, then attaching
reactionary labels to separate these folks from our pristine stronghold
would seem to be UNreasonable.
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @
Sandra Zinn | "The squirming facts
(yep these are my ideas | exceed the squamous mind"
they only own my kybd) | -- Wallace Stevens
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Msg #: 937 SKEP Subboard
From: LIAM WICKHAM Sent: 03-11-90 16:55
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:23
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: ljgw@ukc.ac.uk (Liam Wickham)
Date: 10 Mar 90 15:14:28 GMT
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.
Message-ID: <2443@raven.ukc.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <536@fsu.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
writes:
>In article <3325@psivax.UUCP> torkil@psivax.UUCP (Torkil Hammer) writes:
>> The logical conclusion is that he is a swindler trying for some
>> fast money. If he makes it past the talk show he might collect
>> on the lecture circuit. If not, he lost no money.
>
>The usual MO is to establish one's reputation and then go into
>"consulting" for large, rich companies. Uri Geller pretends to help oil
>companies look for oil. They have money to burn, and he helps them burn
>it. A lot of it. One of Targ and Puthoff, I think, went into silver
>futures for a while, although I may misremember this.
>
OK, this has gone far enough. To slag off a person in jest is all
very well, but some of the people on this net are attacking Uri Geller
most
unfairly and cruelly, as he has no chance to argue with you. Perhaps the
more
vocal supporters of the We Hate Uri Geller Campaign would answer the
following
queries for me:
1. If Uri Geller is a fraud, then why do companies hire him?
2. I read (in 'Intangible Evidence') that Uri Geller was actually
a multi-millionaire, not because he had swindled companies,
but because he had repeatedly made them vast amounts of money
by finding the deposits for them. And he was not paid a fixed
sum, he was paid a percentage of the profits the company made.
Thus, can we simply call Uri Geller a fraud?
3. If Uri Geller is making so much money, isn't this exactly what
you
would expect a genuine psychic to do (as argued in earlier
skeptic
posts)? But, if Uri Geller is just lucky, perhaps this would
explain
his wealth? Does anyone actually have hard FACTS on how
successful
Uri Geller is? I believe that he mentioned an accuracy figure
well
above 80% in the book. Does anyone know if this book is
actually
correct?
4. Is it possible to be a psychic AND a trickster? If, as some of
you have argued, psychism is possible but not always available
to use (perhaps due to lack of skill), would it not be sensible
to be able to fool audiences through conventional means? And
why
do objects fly around Uri Geller's room, hotel corridor etc in
front of parapsychologists? Is this all a set-up to fool
everyone?
If so, do you have proof? If not, do you have proof?
5. It has been said that whenever Uri Geller was in test
conditions
he failed to perform adequately. In the book this is disputed.
Could
those who argue otherwise please give references to their
sources?
It should be remembered that 'Intangible Evidence' is a 1988
book,
so may be more uptodate than your books.
>Eric Pepke INTERNET:
pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu
>Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu
>Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke
>Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke@fsu
>
>Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
>Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Many thanks,
Liam.
--
Gimmee a break, I'm only 19 years old! But I'm wise enough to worship Kate
Bush.
[ljgw.ukc.ac.uk]: I'm studying Psychology with Computing at Kent
University, UK.
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Msg #: 938 SKEP Subboard
From: GREG LEE Sent: 03-11-90 16:55
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:23
Re: (R) POSITIVISM AS A METHO
From: lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee)
Date: 10 Mar 90 18:24:14 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii
Message-ID: <6908@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From article <994@tahoma.UUCP>, by jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn):
>... I am skeptical about the Scientific Method. ...
To help you through your crisis, maybe you could think of the Method as
being essentially skeptical rather than positivist. Instead of
supposing that it is deducible from assumptions about the nature of
things, suppose it to be just a check on human fallibility. Sometimes
people just make up reasons after the fact to "explain" things --
prediction is required in the Method to help exclude this possibility.
Sometimes people engage in circular reasoning, taking the things they
expect to be true as evidence for the theories they have that lead to
their expectations -- objective experiment is required to help exclude
this possibility.
If there is some very slippery, hard to detect thing going on, perhaps
fallibility can be excluded in other ways. But if it can't, we can
never be sure it's really happening. Too bad for us, but we were never
promised a universe we could understand.
Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
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Msg #: 939 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 03-11-90 16:55
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:24
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 10 Mar 90 20:07:15 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <45615@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2443@raven.ukc.ac.uk> ljgw@ukc.ac.uk (Liam Wickham) writes:
> [Stuff re Uri Geller, the renowned Psychic]
> OK, this has gone far enough. To slag off a person in jest is all
>very well, but some of the people on this net are attacking Uri Geller
most
>unfairly and cruelly, as he has no chance to argue with you. Perhaps the
more
>vocal supporters of the We Hate Uri Geller Campaign would answer the
following
>queries for me:
>
> 1. If Uri Geller is a fraud, then why do companies hire him?
Ever heard the expression, "There's a sucker born every minute". Before
you hit the roof, read on. (And as a note, Just who has hired him???)
> 2. I read (in 'Intangible Evidence') that Uri Geller was actually
> a multi-millionaire, not because he had swindled companies,
> but because he had repeatedly made them vast amounts of money
> by finding the deposits for them. And he was not paid a fixed
> sum, he was paid a percentage of the profits the company made.
> Thus, can we simply call Uri Geller a fraud?
>
OK. Let's quote that hoary institution, The Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. XII
No. 1/Fall 1987. "Catching Geller in the Act" by C. Eugene Emery, Jr.,
science writer for the Providence Journal-Bulliten, and the article
originally appeared in the Providence Sunday Journal.
Seems that Geller had been out of the act for about 10 years. He got
bored
with talk show stuff, he said. (By the way, he may just have been waiting
for the statute of limitations on fraud in Israel to run out, but I'm sure
he's not as high on their list as Nazi war criminals). Anyway, he says
he charges $1.6 Million nonrefundable consulting fee. But "he can't name
a single company that has successfully used his services. 'They're afraid
of ridicule,' he said." Why ridicule? See answer to number one above.
> 3. If Uri Geller is making so much money, isn't this exactly what
you
> would expect a genuine psychic to do (as argued in earlier
skeptic
> posts)? But, if Uri Geller is just lucky, perhaps this would
explain
> his wealth? Does anyone actually have hard FACTS on how
successful
> Uri Geller is? I believe that he mentioned an accuracy figure
well
> above 80% in the book. Does anyone know if this book is
actually
> correct?
A claim of wealth does not constitute wealth. But for sake of argument,
let's
say he's filthy rich. Now if you had made a fortune through FRAUD, and
the statute of lim had not yet run out on those puppies, would you write
a book that detailed your fraudulent activities. Not if you wanted to
make some quick bucks on the talk show circuit as a Renowned Psychic, and
stay clear of the hoosegow. They used to tar-and-feather these guys in
the old days.
(As an aside, one of the reasons for his disappearence 10 years ago may
have been the result of some of his closest supporters finally throwing
in the towel and admitting that he was a fraud)
But just like the Poltergeist, Uri's Baaaaack. Anyway, not wanting to
copy a page of description (get the issue or go to a library), Uri's
first test with Mister Emery turns out to be a classic mind-reading
trick with a classic case of misdirection.
"The psychic apparently was hoping I wouldn't remember the proper sequence
of events. Without a sharp eye and a tape recording, I would have missed
the deception. 'What you see here is real,' he insisted. 'It's just
not a trick'."
> 4. Is it possible to be a psychic AND a trickster? If, as some of
> you have argued, psychism is possible but not always available
> to use (perhaps due to lack of skill), would it not be sensible
> to be able to fool audiences through conventional means? And
why
> do objects fly around Uri Geller's room, hotel corridor etc in
> front of parapsychologists? Is this all a set-up to fool
everyone?
> If so, do you have proof? If not, do you have proof?
Be serious! You are trying to say that a person who is attempting to
convince
the world of their honesty and truthfulness would be justified is telling
bald-faced lies when the truth is inconvenient! Would you like to go to
a doctor who found it inconvenient to fix you up today, so they pretend
to fix you up, and then send you a bill? Do you want your mechanic to
spend half a day watching soaps and then give you a bill for $300 for
the following list of repairs: ....!!! Did you, I'm sorry really, but did
you just fall off the potato truck? No, It is not possible to be truthful
and a liar at the same time. And a persistent liar, like Geller, has got
a lot of penance to do before any reasonable person should take anything
he says seriously.
Also, "why do objects fly around the room?". Because Uri throws them.
One
of the reasons a close supporter peached on him a decade ago. And if you
can't see how he could do it and not get caught, ask any magician.
> 5. It has been said that whenever Uri Geller was in test
conditions
> he failed to perform adequately. In the book this is disputed.
Could
> those who argue otherwise please give references to their
sources?
> It should be remembered that 'Intangible Evidence' is a 1988
book,
> so may be more uptodate than your books.
>
Intangible Evidence is a follow-up to The Geller Effect, FYI.
In Emery's next test, Uri Bends Spoons! He actually bends the spoon
before he Bends the Spoon. How's That?? Oh, he gets the person
watching him to look away for a moment, bends the spoon, hides the
bend, then through the power of the trained psychic mind, Bends the
Spoon. Hard to fool that camera, though. Tough break Uri. Two tests,
two Cheats, batting 0.0.
"It wasn't until 13 seconds after I took the photograph showing a
dramatically
deformed spoon that Geller reported that the spoon was definitely
bending."
"Geller won't even appear on the same program as [James] Randi."
"To test his claim that he uses his mental powers to find natural
resources,
the British newspaper 'The Mail on Sunday' gave Geller 84 matchboxes and
asked him to find the one containing a diamond, gold, silver, oil, and
coal?
Geller refused."
And, why go on? He failed the next test. No cheating this time. Just no
results. Why?
"I'm not interested," he said.
Three tests. All ones he claims he can do. Cheating, lying, refusing to
cooperate. Absolute Zero Average. Unsupported claims of, well you name
it. Nothing he claims is supported anywhere. And if you intend to use
his own books as support of his claims, then you will become a
National Treasure. We do not denigrate Uri Geller just to be giving some
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 940 SKEP Subboard
From: EDWARD SURANYI Sent: 03-11-90 16:55
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:25
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: ed@das.llnl.gov (Edward Suranyi)
Date: 10 Mar 90 21:56:39 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Applied Science, UC Davis at LLNL
Message-ID: <51761@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2443@raven.ukc.ac.uk> ljgw@ukc.ac.uk (Liam Wickham) writes:
>
> 1. If Uri Geller is a fraud, then why do companies hire him?
I don't believe any reputable companies have ever hired him, and
gotten results. Geller claims this in his writings, but I wouldn't
trust anything he said. Various psychics have claimed that they
were hired by the CIA; the CIA categorically denies ever using psychics.
I'd like you to find one company that admits having used Geller, and
having gotten results.
> 3. If Uri Geller is making so much money, isn't this exactly what
you
> would expect a genuine psychic to do (as argued in earlier
skeptic
> posts)? But, if Uri Geller is just lucky, perhaps this would
explain
> his wealth? Does anyone actually have hard FACTS on how
successful
> Uri Geller is? I believe that he mentioned an accuracy figure
well
> above 80% in the book. Does anyone know if this book is
actually
> correct?
I really don't know how wealthy Geller is, but as I said above, I doubt
his money comes from being hired by companies. Also, I don't believe
he's lucky -- I believe he cheats. Isn't it funny how he never
succeeds whenever there's someone watching who's KNOWLEDGABLE about
similar magic? No demonstration of psychic phenomena is valid without
such
a person present. It would be like assuming a supernatural force was
keeping the raindrops off someone without checking to see if his
umbrella was open.
> 4. Is it possible to be a psychic AND a trickster? If, as some of
> you have argued, psychism is possible but not always available
> to use (perhaps due to lack of skill), would it not be sensible
> to be able to fool audiences through conventional means? And
why
> do objects fly around Uri Geller's room, hotel corridor etc in
> front of parapsychologists? Is this all a set-up to fool
everyone?
> If so, do you have proof? If not, do you have proof?
Nobody can prove that Geller is a fraud. Fortunately, that's not our
problem. Geller has to prove that he *isn't* a fraud. And every
one of his psychic experiences that has been analyzed by KNOWLEDGEABLE
people has been found wanting. Isn't it possible that when he's not
so analyzed, he really is a psychic? Sure, it's possible, but it's much
simpler to assume that he's cheating. Since these experiments weren't
watched carefully enough, they can't prove anything.
Incidentally, scientists are not necessarily knowledgeable in this field,
unless they are also trained magicians. Any magician can tell you
that scientists are the easiest people in the world to fool, mostly
because they always expect nature to play fair. Many of Geller's
endorsements are given great weight because they come from scientists;
all this shows is that scientists can be as gullible as anybody else.
> 5. It has been said that whenever Uri Geller was in test
conditions
> he failed to perform adequately. In the book this is disputed.
Could
> those who argue otherwise please give references to their
sources?
Of course, there's James Randi's famous book _The Magic of Uri Geller_
(reprinted as _The Truth About Uri Geller_). There's also Martin
Gardner's book _Science: Good, Bad, and Bogus_, which has several
chapters about Geller. Both books are very detailed, and explain in
particular why competent observers are always necessary. They also give
many examples of places in Geller's writings where he is lying.
>Gimmee a break, I'm only 19 years old! But I'm wise enough to worship
Kate Bush.
The one decent thing you've said.
Ed Suranyi
ed@das.llnl.gov
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Msg #: 941 SKEP Subboard
From: SIR SIX Sent: 03-11-90 16:56
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:25
Re: (R) GENUINE EARTHQUAKE PR
From: ph600fji@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Sir Six)
Date: 10 Mar 90 20:10:54 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Message-ID: <8510@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
March 10th has come and (in New Zeland) gone, and no news of
any earthquake has reached San Diego... Oh well.
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Msg #: 942 SKEP Subboard
From: DONALD LINDSAY Sent: 03-11-90 16:56
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:25
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: lindsay@MATHOM.GANDALF.CS.CMU.EDU (Donald Lindsay)
Date: 11 Mar 90 03:51:30 GMT
Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, CS/RI
Message-ID: <8380@pt.cs.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <51761@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> ed@das.UUCP (Edward Suranyi)
writes:
>In article <2443@raven.ukc.ac.uk> ljgw@ukc.ac.uk (Liam Wickham) writes:
>> 1. If Uri Geller is a fraud, then why do companies hire him?
>I don't believe any reputable companies have ever hired him, and
>gotten results.
Unfortunately, that isn't true. At least one company hired him. The
last I heard, the stockholders were suing the corporate officers for
mismanagement, specifically, for giving money to Geller. Apparently
he had been advising them where to search for mineral deposits. And,
_according to Geller_, his results were best when he got to examine
the geologists' field maps, and discuss the situation with the
geologists!!! Hey, I could get results that way too!!
>>4. Is it possible to be a psychic AND a trickster? If, as some of
>> you have argued, psychism is possible but not always available
>> to use (perhaps due to lack of skill), would it not be sensible
>> to be able to fool audiences through conventional means? And why
>> do objects fly around Uri Geller's room, hotel corridor etc in
>> front of parapsychologists? Is this all a set-up to fool everyone?
>> If so, do you have proof? If not, do you have proof?
I've heard this said before, and I would really like to understand
what makes people say it. Seriously, if you could expand on this
point, I would be fascinated. The man has been caught lying and
cheating, not once, but many times. Not by the same person, either!
And not on the same trick! Instantly, I conclude that anything that
Geller does, that a stage magician can also do, is of no interest.
You felt otherwise: why?
>>5. It has been said that whenever Uri Geller was in test conditions
>> he failed to perform adequately. In the book this is disputed.
Well, Geller's opinion just might be part of the act. I saw him on TV
recently, and he made a compass needle move. Then he said that
skeptics claim he has a magnet hidden in his shirt. He took his shirt
off at this point.
Sounds good - but look carefully. He did the trick **first**. He did
**not** do the trick again after taking his shirt off. Nor did he
wave the shirt past the compass to show its innocence.
--
Don D.C.Lindsay Carnegie Mellon Computer Science
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Msg #: 943 SKEP Subboard
From: ENT@UXH.CSO.UIUC.EDU Sent: 03-11-90 16:58
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:26
Re: (R) GENUINE EARTHQUAKE PR
From: ent@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu
Date: 11 Mar 90 00:37:00 GMT
Message-ID: <86300004@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
/* Written 3:56 pm Mar 3, 1990 by paul@actrix.co.nz in sci.skeptic */
/* ---------- "Genuine earthquake prediction" ---------- */
/*His latest prediction, which he has gone public with because "it
/*disturbed me so much I had to speak out", is that there will be a major
/*earthquake in New Zealand on March 10th, 1990. That's in just under a
It's now March 11th in New Zealand. Did the quake occur?
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Msg #: 944 SKEP Subboard
From: CCB104@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Sent: 03-12-90 04:43
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:26
Re: 73+ K DOCUMENT ON *MJ-12*
From: CCB104@psuvm.psu.edu
Date: 12 Mar 90 05:39:34 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <90071.003934CCB104@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Could/would someone please send me a copy of that 73+ k file on Project
Majestic?
Thanks in advance!!
Carey CCB104@psuvm.psu.edu
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Msg #: 945 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL GILLINGWATER Sent: 03-12-90 08:39
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:26
Re: (R) NEW AGE THINKERS
From: paul@actrix.co.nz (Paul Gillingwater)
Date: 12 Mar 90 05:21:10 GMT
Organization: Actrix Public Access UNIX, Wellington, New Zealand
Message-ID: <1990Mar12.052110.19499@actrix.co.nz>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <456@argus.mrcu> paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson) writes:
>Can anyone out there explain what "new age thinkers" think? Any
>definitive books? Any testable hypotheses?
This is quite a big issue. I'm not sure that sci.skeptic is the right
place for this, but i'm willing to give it a go.
First, I deem myself as a "New Age thinker". This means that i read new
age type books, and i talk to others with "new age" ideas, and i think
about those ideas and try to build an understanding or model of reality
from those ideas.
The New Age is anything _but_ new, according to many thinkers. A useful
reference is "The Occult Conspiracy", by Michael Howard (Rider, 1989).
He traces many "New Age" ideas as deriving from Masonic, Rosicrucian and
Gnostic societies of the previous centuries. What has occured is that
these old "occult" ideas have been updated, and reformulated in terms
more consistent with the so-called "scientific thinking" popularised
through recent educational advances. One quite influential group who
helped to popularise these occult ideas was the Theosophical Society.
They spawned a wide variety of ideas, and lead to various other
movements, e.g. Anthroposophical Society (Rudolph Steiner), J.
Krishnamurti, Alice Bailey.
The New Age is a very real threat, according to fundamentalist Christian
writers such as Texe Marrs, in "Mystery Mark of the New Age". This
surpisingly well-researched book gives a good factual coverage of many
trends in "new age" thought, despite its rather heavy bias, e.g:
"Satan is well on the way to success in his goal of enslaving the world.
To accomplish his dark objectives, he has reestablished his Church,
Mystery Babylon. Popularly called the New Age Movement, it is a
perverse and diabolical institution founded on a web of lies and
deceit." (Mystery Mark of the New Age, p. 13)
A further leavening of the new age pudding comes from the
misunderstanding of some of the stranger ideas from physics, e.g. a good
work is "Wholeness and the Implicate Order", by D. Bohm, or the "Tao of
Physics" (F. Capra) or "Looking Glass Universe" (J. Briggs & D. Peat)
for the more populist views. Many of the ideas expressed as a result of
ways of trying to understand the universe seem to have parallels in the
"Ageless Wisdom" (Gupta Vidya) of Indian philosophy.
A very interesting New Age thinker is Morris Berman. His "The
Reenchantment of the World" proposes a radical new way (sorry for the
cliche) of thinking about our world, which to me epitomises much of the
more positive aspects of the New Age.
>From what I have heard so far, it seems to be a "myth mash" (to borrow
>Terry Pratchet's fine phrase from "Strata"): a base of Eastern
>Mystisism leavened with Astrology and spiced with Psi, Flying Sorcery,
>Tarot, the I Ching and Green Politics (small note: the last should not
>be judged by the company it sometimes keeps).
It is true that unfortunately, many New Age commentators (not thinkers)
have tended to adopt a lot of strange ideas holus-bolus, simply because
they are strange. (BTW, I *love* Terry Pratchett!). And there is a
very real link between "eastern" thinking and Green politics, through
"depth ecology" -- which proposes the ideas that all life is one, linked
in subtle ways, and that we have to change to survive.
>To comment on the note I quoted above, New Age Thinking may be self
>consistent, but is is consistent with reality? This is where most
>religions fall down (I don't know if NAT considers itself to be a
>religion or a philosophy or what, but the point is the same).
Texe Marrs argues that it is a religion. I'm not so sure. Certainly
portions can demonstrate a certain internal consistency, but there's a
lot of ground to cover. I think that a basic premise of New Age
thinking is that current (mechanistic, materialistic, selfish) modes of
thinking are incapable of ensuring continuing survival -- and that other
modes are being tried, based on older principles.
>Christianity is fairly self consitent (as long arguments with
>Christians have shown me), but has had to change a great deal to be
>able to claim reasonable consistency with the world.
I think you didn't try hard enough. :-) Certainly many fundamentalist
Christians find it hard to sustain a Bible-is-truth position.
>If "science or rather technology has screwed up" then what are you
>proposing in its place? (I asked this in an earlier note).
I think it's not science or technology per se. It's rather the old
bug-bear, basic human nature. Selfishness, greed, suspicion, fear,
cruelty. I think what is being proposed is a way of "humanising"
technology (although selfishness is pretty human! :-), in the best sense
of the word. A more humane approach, that recognises the basic "unity"
of life (a fundamental tenet of "correct" New Age thinking).
>Is intuition a reliable guide to actions? If (as would seem probable)
>people in authority who claimed divine guidance for their acts in the
>past were in fact using intuition, then intuition seems to have a
>rather poor record.
Hmmm... tough question. No, i don't think intuition is reliable for all
people in all cases. But, if you watch enough Star Trek re-runs, you'll
realise that pure logic has its own limitations. :-)
>Of course, I may be attacking a straw man here. If so, can anyone put
>me right?
Feel free. Let's get the debate going. But is this the right place?
>Paul
Paul Gillingwater
--
Paul Gillingwater, paul@actrix.co.nz
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 946 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL GILLINGWATER Sent: 03-12-90 08:39
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:27
Re: (R) GENUINE EARTHQUAKE PR
From: paul@actrix.co.nz (Paul Gillingwater)
Date: 12 Mar 90 19:56:51 GMT
Organization: Actrix Public Access UNIX, Wellington, New Zealand
Message-ID: <1990Mar12.195651.25104@actrix.co.nz>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <8510@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> ph600fji@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Sir Six) writes:
>
> March 10th has come and (in New Zeland) gone, and no news of
>any earthquake has reached San Diego... Oh well.
Yup. Pretty much as expected... however we did have some rather severe
flooding over the weekend ... in one place in one day there fell 13
INCHES of rain!!! No, i didn't believe the weather report either.
13cm maybe...
--
Paul Gillingwater, paul@actrix.co.nz
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Msg #: 947 SKEP Subboard
From: PAVLOS PAPAGEORGIOU Sent: 03-12-90 08:39
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:27
Re: (R) GENUINE (??? :-) EART
From: aipp@castle.ed.ac.uk (Pavlos Papageorgiou)
Date: 11 Mar 90 20:06:22 GMT
Organization: student / Edinburgh University
Message-ID: <2766@castle.ed.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
A very large earthquake prediction system has been deployed in
Greece some years ago. It is known as "VAN" from the initials of the
three inventors. I think the attribute being monitored is the
conductivity of the ground, but I could be wrong in this. The system is
deeply immersed in the murky waters of controversy, disbelief by the
rest of the scientific community and some very un-scientific conduct by
one of the inventors, who is utterly convinced of the accuracy of the
machine's predictions. (A bit like cold fusion! :-)
Every time there is an earthquake, (very common in Greece), said
inventor claims he HAD cabled the appropriate authorities with a
prediction, and the authorities claim otherwise. The cost of the
[state-funded] system, the dillema of wether to release a prediction to
the public and cause mass panic, and points of proper scientific conduct
are very sensitive issues on the subject.
I don't know enough to form an opinion on wether the system is a
breakthrough or a fraud - I honestly hope it's a breakthrough (like cold
fusion :-). If the net is interested in this, I can dig up some
references over the holidays and present a more thorough posting after
easter.
Pavlos
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Universe always gets the last laugh!
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Msg #: 948 SKEP Subboard
From: DR. SANIO Sent: 03-12-90 12:51
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:27
Re: (R) SATANISM: MYTH AND TR
From: es@sinix.UUCP (Dr. Sanio)
Date: 6 Mar 90 16:24:36 GMT
Organization: Siemens AG, DI ST SP4, Munich
Message-ID: <1042@athen.sinix.UUCP>
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
Though I absolutely agree to Tim's and Pam's point, I believe it's time
to
abandon that thread of discussion in sci.skeptic.
Not that I regard the topic irrelevant, on contrary. But the arguments
exchanged
deal with rights of humans, religion, philosophy etc and should be
dicussed
in the appropriate groups (alt.pagan is one, sure).
The starting point, as I remember, was the question whether there is crime
committed under the devotion to a particular religion (satanism).
Tim already perfectly refuted those assertions, IMHO.
If somebody insists, the burden of proof is on her/him. Facts or evidence
are still welcome in that group, sure.
regards, es
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Msg #: 949 SKEP Subboard
From: JOHN SPARKS Sent: 03-12-90 12:51
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:27
Re: UFO CONSPIRACY
From: sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks)
Date: 6 Mar 90 13:35:09 GMT
Organization: Corpane Industries, Inc., Louisville Ky
Message-ID: <1560@corpane.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Someone just posted a HUGE file on a UFO conspiracy, the Majestic crap and
a bunch more, in alt.conspiracy. Seems like just the stuff for sci.skeptic
to de-bunk, as it makes a bunch of pseudo-scientific claims, such as
aliens are implanting little metal spheres in humans to control them.
I thought you all would like to know. If you are interested we can do two
things:
1> invade alt.conspiracy
2> I can go get the posting and repost it here in sci.skeptic
Let me know if you want me to do 2>
--
John Sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps. Accessable via Starlink (Louisville
KY)
sparks@corpane.UUCP <><><><><><><><><><><> D.I.S.K. ph:502/968-5401 thru
-5406
Help fight continental drift.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 950 SKEP Subboard
From: BRAD J. CASTER Sent: 03-12-90 12:51
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:27
Re: (R) BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: caster@psueea.uucp (Brad J. Caster)
Date: 6 Mar 90 05:54:33 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Portland State University;
Portland OR
Message-ID: <2474@psueea.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Did anyone catch Inside Edition, Monday Night? They had a spot
on field circles.
I missed it, so I don't have anymore information. They must have come to
some conclusion, though. If anyone did see it or hear about it, please
post. Thanks.
:_ fill in the blank. :)
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Msg #: 951 SKEP Subboard
From: GEORGE MICHAELSON Sent: 03-12-90 12:52
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:28
Re: (R) BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: ggm@brolga.cc.uq.oz (George Michaelson)
Date: 7 Mar 90 04:15:44 GMT
Message-ID: <2318@bunyip.cc.uq.oz>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
What happened the the microburst wind theory? Last I heard, that was
being blamed for the U.K. circles, and if plausible also extends to
any other locality human-settled or not. How about circles in the snow
down by McMurdo sound? caused by extry-terrestrial spacecraft dumping
their used aerosol cans I s'pose...
-george
G.Michaelson
Internet: G.Michaelson@cc.uq.oz.au Phone: +61 7 377
4079
Postal: George Michaelson, Prentice Computer Centre
Queensland University, St Lucia, QLD Australia 4067.
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Msg #: 953 SKEP Subboard
From: SIX O'CLOCK NEWS Sent: 03-13-90 01:20
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:28
Re: CANCEL <22949@PASTEUR.BER
From: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU (Six o'clock News)
Date: 12 Mar 90 20:01:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <22958@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Newsgroups: ba.general,ucb.general,sci.skeptic
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Msg #: 954 SKEP Subboard
From: LOREN PETRICH Sent: 03-13-90 01:20
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:28
Re: (R) POSITIVISM AS A METHO
From: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich)
Date: 12 Mar 90 20:37:50 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Message-ID: <51980@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <994@tahoma.UUCP> jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn) writes:
>
>
>This is a question I've wanted to post for some time, but it is by nature
>a flame-inducing one. I have tried to couch it in language as
>non-inflammatory as possible, and I hope it'll get some high-quality
>discussion going. Here goes:
>
> [the possibility that some things exist that cannot be described
> or located by the scientific method...]
>
>This last statement is a kind of heresy. The dominant paradigm it
>challenges is demonstrated clearly by Scott Le Grand's analysis of
ESP-type
>events:
>
>>The burden of proof for the existence of ESP is not in the hands of
skeptics.
>>The burden of proof IS in the hands of those who claim it does.
>>
>>When we say ESP does not exist, we are not contradicting any well
supported
>>scientific principle. And we have scads of empirical evidence to back
us up.
>>
>>There has yet to be a well designed ESP experiment with a positive
result.
>>
>>Until such incident occurs, ESP does not exist...
I think that Scott LeGrand's analysis is essentially correct.
His conditions, if satisfied for any purported ESP events would
successfully demonstrate that the purported ESP events are true ESP
events and not something else that only gives the _appearance_ of ESP.
Don't knock the scientific method too quickly.
I have a feeling that James Galasyn and like-minded thinkers
bellyache about "positivism" and "rationalism" because their pet
beliefs just don't hold up under critical scrutiny. When they see that
they are losing, they change the rules of the game. I don't think that
they would be bitching like this if mental telepathy (let us say) was
a commonplace and readily verifiable occurrence.
> [The "scientific method" as a paradigm...]
> [That is supposedly posits a reality that is independent of
> whatever we choose to believe about it...]
> [That quantum mechanics, Godel's theorem, and classical chaos
> form counterexamples...]
I think that there is an all too common misunderstanding of
quantum mechanics here. It is well known that some measurements tend
to alter the entity being measured. Just consider putting a
thermometer in some water; as the water and thermometer reach thermal
equilibrium, the water's temperature is slightly altered. In classical
physics, one ought to be able to get the "observer influence" down to
zero. But in quantum mechanics, according to the uncertainty
principle, that is not possible. Efforts to observe a system will
inevitably alter it. I think that this "standpoint of the observer"
has been misunderstood. It really refers to the act of observation.
Some things are still independent of observation, such as probability
distributions for (say) radioactive decay. Wishing will not make it
so, some interpreters of QM to the contrary.
Godel's theorem is simple. It states that in any formal system
of axioms in which a statement can refer to itself, it will always be
possible to construct a true statement that cannot be shown to be true
inside the system. This statement, which I will call G, states that "G
is not a theorem" in the language of the system. It is simply a fancy
version of the liar paradox; a circumstance which demonstrates our
minds are not mysteriously exempt from any logical constraints, which
is what some people seemingly believe.
The liar paradox goes "I am telling a lie". If I am telling
the truth, then I am lying. If I am lying, then I'm telling the truth.
Get it?
Classical chaos is only a generalization of the "Butterfly
Effect". A butterfly flapping its wings in the Rockies may possibly
generate a storm in Europe. In some systems, like our atmosphere, a
slight alteration in the values of the system variables at one point
in time may be magnified to significant size at some later time. In a
purely classical Universe, and having infinite measurement and
computational precision available, one could calculate all past and
future states from its state at one time. Alas! The Universe is
quantum-mechanical, which implies a certain degree of irreducible
randomness.
And randomness means only one thing -- if something can't be
predicted, it can't be predicted. Period. No mystic intuition can get
one out of this situation.
> [On how "positivism" allegedly teaches ignoring what goes on
> inside people's minds...]
That is a legitimate criticism of schools of thought about
such schools of thought as behaviorism. But in the absence of reliable
(and I repeat, _reliable_) mental telepathy, one only knows about
other people's minds from the way that they act, in the most general
sense of the word. For those of you that are sure that you have minds,
I pose the question of how can one be sure that other people have
minds. Sooner or later, every proposed test, with the possible
exception of telepathic contact, falls back to a behavioral test, of
which the classic example is the Turing Test. One ends up concluding
that the entity in question _acts_ like it has a mind. But once one
comes to that conclusion, it is certainly legitimate to try to work
out what goes on inside the other person's mind.
Personally, I wonder if James Galasyn is making a straw man
out of behavorism.
>Quite clearly, any research which aims to discover mechanisms occurring
>within the "black box" of the mind (ESP, precognition, UFO contacts) must
be
>necessarily emic in nature. Etic research (the kind to which Scott
refers)
>is severely limited by the subjective nature of the human mind, and the
>validity of claims made by such inquiry (e.g. ESP does not exist) are
gravely
>questionable.
That strikes me as pure special pleading. You see it,
therefore it's there. But all we have access to are ideas in our
minds, our perceptions, which we _conclude_ are caused by outside
entities. It is just a conclusion that we reach that there exists
anything outside our thoughts.
And may I point that enthusiasts for such phenomena as ESP and
UFO's often insist that these alleged capabilities and entities leave
_physical_ effects. So the defense that these effects are totally
subjective is, in my mind, inadequate.
>The upshot of all this pedantry is this: skeptical inquiry is best
>approached from a naturalistic point of view. The positivistic paradigm,
>by its very nature, is unable to handle the inherent subjectivities
>of the act of inquiry.
In other words, these "other fields of inquiry" are based on
will to believe, so one can safely suspend rational thought. That
sounds, to me, like confusing fantasy and reality, which I think is a
very bad habit. I have nothing against fantasy, provided that it is
recognized as such. And I think that anyone who mixes fantasy and
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 955 SKEP Subboard
From: RANJAN MUTTIAH Sent: 03-13-90 01:20
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:29
Re: (R) DID LEONARDO PRECEDE
From: g2g@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Ranjan Muttiah)
Date: 12 Mar 90 18:08:51 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <8317@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <8209@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> g2g@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Ranjan
Muttiah) writes:
>
> +
> \ \
> \ \ \
> \ \ \
> \ \ \ |
> \ \ . \.... |
> -----------------
> a b c
>
>However, ab # bc and so on. leonardo doesn't have anything more on
>it. It just could be that he was trying to illustrate something in
>his studio or not! (That's why I posted in .skeptic :). Now Newton
>in his proof of Kepler's second law used this same very argument but
>instead ab was equal to bc and of course he introduced an impetus so
>that the straight deviated into a curvature. Newton came almost a
>century and a half after Leonardo. So was Leonardo onto something ?
Sorry Mr. Muttiah, he was just illustrating how light rays diverge from
a source, the rays being at equal angles to each other...good try though!
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Msg #: 956 SKEP Subboard
From: CHARLIE J CHURCH Sent: 03-13-90 01:21
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:29
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: charlie@uokmax.uucp (Charlie J Church)
Date: 12 Mar 90 15:47:51 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma,
Norman, OK
Message-ID: <1990Mar12.154751.18884@uokmax.uucp>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2443@raven.ukc.ac.uk> ljgw@ukc.ac.uk (Liam Wickham) writes:
>In article <536@fsu.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
writes:
>>In article <3325@psivax.UUCP> torkil@psivax.UUCP (Torkil Hammer) writes:
>>> The logical conclusion is that he is a swindler trying for some
>>> fast money. If he makes it past the talk show he might collect
>>> on the lecture circuit. If not, he lost no money.
>>
>>The usual MO is to establish one's reputation and then go into
>>"consulting" for large, rich companies. Uri Geller pretends to help oil
>>companies look for oil. They have money to burn, and he helps them burn
>>it. A lot of it. One of Targ and Puthoff, I think, went into silver
>>futures for a while, although I may misremember this.
>>
Complete nonsense!!!!!! You, obvisously do not know any oil men or the oil
business.
I worked in oil exploration for nearly seventeen years. I have worked for
all
the major oil companies, Exxon, Texaco, Phillips, Dutch Shell, etc..
I worked in twenty two countries around the world.
I never once heard of or met a psychic working for an oil company.
I did work with everything from an atheist to an american nazi but never
with
a psychic.
>
> OK, this has gone far enough. To slag off a person in jest is all
>very well, but some of the people on this net are attacking Uri Geller
most
>unfairly and cruelly, as he has no chance to argue with you. Perhaps the
more
>vocal supporters of the We Hate Uri Geller Campaign would answer the
following
>queries for me:
>
>
> 1. If Uri Geller is a fraud, then why do companies hire him?
>
> 2. I read (in 'Intangible Evidence') that Uri Geller was actually
> a multi-millionaire, not because he had swindled companies,
> but because he had repeatedly made them vast amounts of money
> by finding the deposits for them. And he was not paid a fixed
> sum, he was paid a percentage of the profits the company made.
> Thus, can we simply call Uri Geller a fraud?
>
> 3. If Uri Geller is making so much money, isn't this exactly what
you
> would expect a genuine psychic to do (as argued in earlier
skeptic
> posts)? But, if Uri Geller is just lucky, perhaps this would
explain
> his wealth? Does anyone actually have hard FACTS on how
successful
> Uri Geller is? I believe that he mentioned an accuracy figure
well
> above 80% in the book. Does anyone know if this book is
actually
> correct?
>
> 4. Is it possible to be a psychic AND a trickster? If, as some of
> you have argued, psychism is possible but not always available
> to use (perhaps due to lack of skill), would it not be sensible
> to be able to fool audiences through conventional means? And
why
> do objects fly around Uri Geller's room, hotel corridor etc in
> front of parapsychologists? Is this all a set-up to fool
everyone?
> If so, do you have proof? If not, do you have proof?
>
> 5. It has been said that whenever Uri Geller was in test
conditions
> he failed to perform adequately. In the book this is disputed.
Could
> those who argue otherwise please give references to their
sources?
> It should be remembered that 'Intangible Evidence' is a 1988
book,
> so may be more uptodate than your books.
>
>
>>Eric Pepke INTERNET:
pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu
>>Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu
>>Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke
>>Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke@fsu
>>
>>Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
>>Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many
lawyers.
>
> Many thanks,
>
>
> Liam.
>--
>Gimmee a break, I'm only 19 years old! But I'm wise enough to worship
Kate Bush.
>[ljgw.ukc.ac.uk]: I'm studying Psychology with Computing at Kent
University, UK.
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Msg #: 957 SKEP Subboard
From: MIKE L HARVEY Sent: 03-13-90 12:41
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:30
Re: THIS WHOLE FIELD CIRCLE T
From: mlh@flash.bellcore.com (Mike L Harvey)
Date: 12 Mar 90 22:47:42 GMT
Organization: Stumblin' in the Neon Groves...
Message-ID: <20862@bellcore.bellcore.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
I don't have any pictures of these field circles, so I
can only guess what they look like.
But so far I have heard that:
they have only been around for 11 years
they only occur at night
lights reported seen in sky
there are no footprints leading to/from the circles
different sizes
found mainly in England's Southwest
It seems to me that burial mounds would have to be ruled
out, for why would this phenomenom occur only within the
past 11 years? Similarly, why would a wind condition only
exist within the past 11 years? If it were people from
another planet, why would they come all the way here, and
sit in a wheat field in Southern England, and not get out?
Basically, this leaves People as the culprit. "Hoaxers?"
Surely some were made by people out for a good time. But
really, who could keep a hoax up for that long, in such a
widespread area, and maintain complete secrecy?
The only group I could think of that would be secretive
would be the military. I also know the R.A.F. uses
VTOL craft. What would be the effect of a jet engine
fired straight down into a wheat field for a burst? Does
anybody know? Also, the height of the craft, and dispersion
of the engine, might change the circle size. Of course,
if the circle got too big, it might leave a circle of wheat
standing in the center. Does this happen? I would also
expect the smaller circles to be completely flattened.
Some of these craft use pivoting engines, so if the craft
was low when the engine pivoted, you might expect to see
lines also. Do these occur?
Is there anyway I can get some pictures mailed to me?
Then again, Kevin Costner could have built them.
BTW, isn't Britain a Pioneer in VTOL ?
" "
-----Marcel Marceau
Mike Harvey Internet: mlh@mookie.bellcore.com uucp:
bellcore!thumper!mlh
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Msg #: 958 SKEP Subboard
From: SBISHOP@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU Sent: 03-13-90 13:58
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:30
Re: (R) WORLD POPULATION WAS
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Date: 12 Mar 90 16:04:58 GMT
Message-ID: <10.25fb825a@desire.wright.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <3507@odin.SGI.COM>, thant@horus.esd.sgi.com (Thant Tessman)
writes:
> In article <35366@mips.mips.COM>, vaso@mips.COM (Vaso Bovan) writes:
>> The following exchange occurred in private E-mail. I have permission to
>> post the exchange. The question is: what percentage of all people ever
alive,
>> are alive today ? If I remember correctly, it is a popular myth that
> ~50% of
>> all people who ever existed, exist today. I think I remember a careful
>> calculation came up with a figure of 3-5%, with up to 7% possible.
Does
>> anyone know ?
>
>
> I think that the 50% refers to *lawers*. And the way I heard it,
> there are more people in school becoming lawers than there have
> been lawers in the history of the world.
>
> thant
>
> P.S. The fall of the Roman Empire was preceeded by a marked increase
> in the percentage of lawers.
>
Perhaps you might mean lawYers?
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Msg #: 959 SKEP Subboard
From: JAMES PRESTON Sent: 03-13-90 18:41
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:30
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: jsp@key.COM (James Preston)
Date: 12 Mar 90 19:11:18 GMT
Organization: Key Computer Laboratories, Fremont
Message-ID: <1533@key.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2443@raven.ukc.ac.uk> ljgw@ukc.ac.uk (Liam Wickham) writes:
} 1. If Uri Geller is a fraud, then why do companies hire him?
Because there are fools everywhere, even at high levels in big companies.
} 2. I read (in 'Intangible Evidence') that Uri Geller was actually
} a multi-millionaire, not because he had swindled companies,
} but because he had repeatedly made them vast amounts of money
} by finding the deposits for them. And he was not paid a fixed
} sum, he was paid a percentage of the profits the company made.
} Thus, can we simply call Uri Geller a fraud?
I don't know about you, but I can. Show me some proof that he's found
"deposits" for "companies". Tell me the names of the "companies", the
names of the people at the companies, the dates, the methods used, etc.
In short, show me some hard documentation.
} 4. Is it possible to be a psychic AND a trickster?
The easy answer is no, because it's not possible to be a psychic.
} If, as some of
} you have argued, psychism is possible but not always available
} to use (perhaps due to lack of skill), would it not be sensible
} to be able to fool audiences through conventional means? And
why
} do objects fly around Uri Geller's room, hotel corridor etc in
} front of parapsychologists? Is this all a set-up to fool
everyone?
} If so, do you have proof? If not, do you have proof?
No, no, no; YOU show ME some proof of "objects flying around" his room.
The word of "parapsychologists" who have seen it isn't worth the paper
it's written on.
--James Preston
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Msg #: 960 SKEP Subboard
From: MARK ISAAK Sent: 03-13-90 18:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:31
Re: (R) POSITIVISM AS A METHO
From: isaak@imagen.UUCP (Mark Isaak)
Date: 12 Mar 90 22:23:47 GMT
Organization: Imagen Corp., Santa Clara CA
Message-ID: <9501@imagen.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
in article <994@tahoma.UUCP>, jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn) says:
> I am skeptical about the Scientific Method.
Good. A true skeptic is skeptical about everything, even skepticism
itself.
> Positivist Paradigm Naturalist Paradigm
> ********************************************************
> Reality is single, tan- Realities are multiple,
> gible and fragmentable. constructed and holistic.
>
> Knower and known are Knower and known are
> independent, a dualism. interactive, inseparable.
>
> Time- and context-free Only time- and context-
> generalizations (nomo- bound working hypotheses
> thetic statements) are (idiographic statements)
> possible. are possible.
>
> There are real causes, All entities are in a
> temporally precedent to state of mutual simul-
> or simultaneous with taneous shaping, so that
> their effects. it is impossible to dis-
> tinguish causes from
> effects.
>
> Inquiry is value-free. Inquiry is value-bound.
This summary gives the two extremes of a continuum. I think most people,
positivists and naturalists alike, recognize that reality is somewhere in
the middle. For instance, the physicists tell us that some events are
uncaused, but everyone intuitively sees that most events in their
experience do have causes. (You yourself recognized this when you said
that your posting would likely cause people to flame.)
As I see it, the key is utility. The scientific method has developed into
its current form not because it is "true" in some absolute sense, but
because it is useful. Consider each of the above points in this regard.
Holistic reality: Yes, the dynamics of locust populations depend to a
huge extent on the quantum mechanical interactions of the materials which
make up them and their environment, but if you tried to approach the
problem from this level, you'd be overwhelmed and never make any progress.
Fragmented reality is an approximation we make because we don't have the
brain capacity to understand everthing in the universe simultaneously.
Independent observer: It's well known that there's no such thing as a
perfectly independent observer. In fact, the "experimenter effect" is an
explanation used to debunk some experiments on psychic abilities. But
without observations, we've got nothing. The best we can do is to seek to
understand exactly how the observer and the observed interact.
Repeatablilty: Like causality, this is accepted because it's observed so
often; I know the traffic will be bad around 5pm because I have seen it
bad then so often before. We can't know, however, that the physical laws
will be consistent throughout time. But what can we do if they aren't?
If a phenomenon isn't in some sense repeatable, it will be of no use in
the future.
Causality: This principle doesn't much affect the utility of the
scientific
method, but then I don't think it's a necessary part of science. It just
happens to show up a lot.
Value-free inquiry: The assumption which the scientific method makes
isn't
that inquiry is value-free, but that it should be. That, in part, is what
peer-reviewed publication is for. This ideal has broken down in the past,
giving us things like Lysenko and IQ tests "proving" white supremacy.
Perhaps there are naturalistic explanations to unrepeatable,
unfalsifiable,
unquantifiable supernatural phenomena, but that doesn't address the issue
of why I should waste my time on such explanations if they exist.
--
Mark Isaak {decwrl,sun}!imagen!isaak or imagen!isaak@decwrl.dec.com
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." - Adolf Hitler
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Msg #: 961 SKEP Subboard
From: ALAN FILIPSKI Sent: 03-13-90 18:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:31
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: al@gtx.com (Alan Filipski)
Date: 12 Mar 90 21:14:50 GMT
Organization: GTX Corporation, Phoenix
Message-ID: <1180@gtx.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2443@raven.ukc.ac.uk> ljgw@ukc.ac.uk (Liam Wickham) writes:
> 4. Is it possible to be a psychic AND a trickster? If, as some of
> you have argued, psychism is possible but not always available
> to use (perhaps due to lack of skill), would it not be sensible
> to be able to fool audiences through conventional means?
No, it would be very stupid, and I don't think anyone has accused
Geller of being stupid. Put yourself in his place. If you had a real
effect, would you risk discrediting it by "sometimes" choosing to
employ trickery instead? If you were a good weight-lifter, say, would
it be in your best interest to occasionally try to sneak fake weights
into competitions to give yourself an extra edge, knowing that the
referees are very suspicious?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021,
USA )
( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al
(602)870-1696 )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Msg #: 962 SKEP Subboard
From: SBISHOP@DESIRE.WRIGHT.EDU Sent: 03-13-90 18:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:31
Re: (R) PROOF THE HARD WAY .
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Date: 12 Mar 90 19:23:46 GMT
Message-ID: <12.25fbb0f2@desire.wright.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <33184@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
writes:
> The following message appeared on rec.arts.sf-lovers, which will
> probably get the author lots of interesting advice--but I'm sure
> It'll get him a usable answer. The limitations on how to answer
> it are intriguing, and as I really can't come up with any reasonably
> bullet-resistant (let alone bullt-proof) answers given the constraints,
> I curious to see what this community can do with it . . .
>
> ----------------
> From pacbell!ames!apple!rutgers!nac.no!rune.johansen%odin.re.nta.uninett
Mon Feb 12 14:46:42 PST 1990
> Article 36904 of rec.arts.sf-lovers:
> Path:
pbhya!pacbell!ames!apple!rutgers!nac.no!rune.johansen%odin.re.nta.uninett
>>From: rune.johansen%odin.re.nta.uninett@NAC.NO (Rune Henning Johansen)
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers
> Subject: Astronomy & arch{ology.
> Message-ID: <568*rune.johansen@odin.re.nta.uninett>
> Date: 11 Feb 90 17:06:00 GMT
> Sender: nobody@rutgers.rutgers.edu
> Lines: 14
>
>
> This is a question someone would say does not belong here. But I
think
> I have greatest chance of success here, so please forgive me...
>
> I would like to prove without using biology, geology or carbon-14
that
> man has been on earth more than a little over 6000 years. (Yes, I
have
> been talking with the Jehova's witnesses.)
>
> I remember I once saw on the TV a picture of a rockcarving where
you
> could see the Charles's wain as it was for ?? years ago. (It
might
> have been Cosmos with Carl Sagan.) Can anybody give me more
informa-
> tion about this?
>
>
>
Just curious, why NOT use biology, geology, etc? Many of the proofs come
from
those fields.
There are many other methods
of dating materials. Potassium-argon dating comes to mind. Dr. Johansen
used
it in dating fossils found in Africa. It is used on volcanic tufts found
on
the same strata as the huminoid fossils. Read his new book, _Lucy's
Child_.
It covers the topic quite thoroughly as to how dating is done.
You can also talk about bio-molecular engineering which has shown that
human
and ape genes are around 98% compatible, even more so than horses and
donkeys
which are able to produce mules when crossed. It is conceiveable (sorry,
could
not resist) that a man/ape hybrid could be produced. This has not yet
been put
to the test but it is interesting to speculate.
BTW, unless you are a masochist, you might as well not get into an
argument
with the Je-Wits. They are, at best, fanatics, and NOTHING you can show
them
will change their minds.
I try to avoid creationists. They have minds closed tight as a locked
safe.
They seem afraid to even consider opening their minds to a little
knowledge.
It is also interesting to note that the vast majority of them have very
little
or NO scientific knowledge.
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Msg #: 963 SKEP Subboard
From: SIX O'CLOCK NEWS Sent: 03-13-90 18:43
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:32
Re: CANCEL <22959@PASTEUR.BER
From: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU (Six o'clock News)
Date: 13 Mar 90 16:09:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <22991@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Newsgroups: ba.general,ucb.general,sci.skeptic
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Msg #: 964 SKEP Subboard
From: WILSON HEYDT Sent: 03-13-90 18:43
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:32
Re: (R) PROOF THE HARD WAY .
From: whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Date: 13 Mar 90 19:29:36 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Message-ID: <34306@pbhya.PacBell.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <12.25fbb0f2@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu
writes:
>In article <33184@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
writes:
>> The following message appeared on rec.arts.sf-lovers, which will
>>>From: rune.johansen%odin.re.nta.uninett@NAC.NO (Rune Henning Johansen)
>>
>> I would like to prove without using biology, geology or carbon-14
that
>> man has been on earth more than a little over 6000 years. (Yes, I
have
>> been talking with the Jehova's witnesses.)
>Just curious, why NOT use biology, geology, etc? Many of the proofs come
from
>those fields.
>There are many other methods
>of dating materials. Potassium-argon dating comes to mind. Dr. Johansen
used
>it in dating fossils found in Africa. It is used on volcanic tufts found
on
>the same strata as the huminoid fossils. Read his new book, _Lucy's
Child_.
>It covers the topic quite thoroughly as to how dating is done.
>
>BTW, unless you are a masochist, you might as well not get into an
argument
>with the Je-Wits. They are, at best, fanatics, and NOTHING you can show
them
>will change their minds.
I think that is just the gentleman's point. He wants to counter their
arguments without appealing to disciplines they reject out of hand. (Sort
of getting down in the gutter with them to argue right of way . . .)
The crux of this is that the creationists--among others--reject out of
hand anything that will falsify their beleifs. Radioisotope dating
clearly shows an "old" Earth? Just assert that the method is inaccurate
or depends on unproven hypotheses (i.e. that half-lives are costant over
long periods of time . . .). Fossils in rocks--that can be shown (by
geological methods) to be old--of animals that don't exist? They're
just God's way of testing your faith . . . All of these arguments are
designed to dispose of inconvenient data and methods.
--Hal
=======================================================================
Hal Heydt |Surely the end of the world is at hand:
Analyst, Pacific*Bell | Children no longer obey their parents
415-823-5447 | and *everyone* wants to write a book.
whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM | --from a Babylonian clay tablet
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Msg #: 965 SKEP Subboard
From: ALEX LEAVENS Sent: 03-13-90 20:41
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:32
Re: (R) THIS WHOLE FIELD CIRC
From: alex@athertn.Atherton.COM (Alex Leavens)
Date: 13 Mar 90 16:48:00 GMT
Organization: Atherton Technology, Sunnyvale, CA
Message-ID: <19880@laurel.athertn.Atherton.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
On the subject of field circles, one thing that I haven't seen
mentioned so far is that for a fairly large percentage of the
circles, the grass (or wheat, etc.) is actually braided together
in a counterclockwise pattern; this braiding turns out to be fairly
difficult to do.
Also, field circles have been around quite a bit longer than 11 years,
I can remember back in the early and mid 60's photos of 'saucer nests'
which have exactly the same charecteristics as the current field
circles. (This does not, of course, mean that they were caused by UFO's
:-)
--
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|--alex | alex@Atherton.COM | Caution! Falling Opinions, next 6 miles
|
| New Net Address!!: UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax}!unisoft!bdt!dsdeng!alex
|
| "Mmmm...Ooo, say...Yummm......Blewuechh! Tiggers _don't_ like honey."
|
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Msg #: 967 SKEP Subboard
From: BRUCE S. WOODCOCK Sent: 03-14-90 15:39
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:32
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Bruce S. Woodcock)
Date: 13 Mar 90 22:54:01 GMT
Organization: Purdue Univ. Physics Dept., W. Lafayette, IN
Message-ID: <3270@pur-phy>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1533@key.COM> jsp@penguin.key.COM (James Preston) writes:
>
>No, no, no; YOU show ME some proof of "objects flying around" his room.
>The word of "parapsychologists" who have seen it isn't worth the paper
>it's written on.
>
>--James Preston
OK, everyone, head for the hills! Mr. Preston rears his bias once
again.
Personally, I am not qualified to speak for or against Uri Geller; my
"best
guess" is that he is a fraud. What I object to is Mr. Preston`s comment
(quoted above) in response to proofs.
Mr. Preston, it seems you will not believe in parapsychological
phenomena
unless you see the proof yourself. I assume that you are a fair man, and
as
such apply your standards equally to all scientific enquiries. Therefore,
unless have done some heavy physics work, you probably don`t believe in:
Most sub-atomic particles
Particles that can exhibit wave properties, and vice-versa
The fact that the pinpoints of light in the night sky are really stars
Relativity
You also probably don`t believe
The Earth is round
The Earth revolves around the sun
The existence of galaxies, quasars, pulsars, etc.
That man went to the moon
That the South Pole exists
That DNA contains the genetic information for protein production
Why do you not believe these things? Because they have not been proven to
you.
What constitutes proof for you? Obviously not pictures, for they can be
faked.
Even those pictures that experts conclude they don`t know whether or not
they
are faked are unreliable.
You have never seen these things with your own senses. And even if you
did,
you might be misinterpretating other phenomena or hallucinating entirely.
After all, the words of "physicists" and "scientists" who have seen it
isn`t
worth the paper it`s printed on.
Now, either Mr. Preston believes in very little, or he is not applying his
standards of belief uniformly across all phenomena. And we wouldn`t want
to
be accused of that, would we Mr. Preston?
The Point: Evidence is evidence regardless of what is being claimed. The
use
of the idea that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" is
purely
subjective. If we use objective, scientific means for determining the
existence of a given phenomena, then these standards must apply to all
phenomena. If belief in the South Pole for you only requires a picture,
some
articles written about it, and a large number of people who believe in it
(so
chances of it being wrong is slim), why don`t you believe in
parapsychological
phenomena? We have pictures of parapsychological events which cannot be
proven
to be faked (there are ways such a photo could be faked, but it is
impossible
given that photo whether or not it was faked), articles have been written
about
them, more people have claimed to have observed psychic phenomena than
have
seen the South Pole. And over 50% of the U.S. population believe in it.
I`m not advocated proof by majority rule or anything. What I`m trying to
get
at is this: Mr. Preston (and others who feel the same way), I challenge
you
to provide a system of evidence which you want to see that would prove
that
these parapsychological phenomena exist, while still allowing you to
believe
all of the other facts you currently believe in. The system of evidence
required must be logical, objective, and scientifically verifiable.
If you can do this, I believe I can present evidence for the existence of
these
phenomena. If you cannot do this, then I suggest you either change your
requirements for belief, change what it is you believe in, or get out of
science altogether.
-Bruce Woodcock-
-Physics Major-
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Msg #: 968 SKEP Subboard
From: CHUCK HENKEL Sent: 03-14-90 15:39
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:33
Re: (R) THIS WHOLE FIELD CIRC
From: henkel%nefx4@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu (Chuck Henkel)
Date: 14 Mar 90 03:29:37 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University, Raleigh
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <19880@laurel.athertn.Atherton.COM> (Alex Leavens) writes:
> On the subject of field circles, one thing that I haven't seen
> mentioned so far is that for a fairly large percentage of the
> circles, the grass (or wheat, etc.) is actually braided together
> in a counterclockwise pattern; this braiding turns out to be fairly
> difficult to do.
How do you know this? What's your source? How can the braiding be
"difficult to do" and yet be described by a simple concept like
"counterclockwise"? Hell, how can "counterclockwise" even be used
to describe a braiding pattern. (If I look from the other side, it
becomes "clockwise," no?)
Doesn't it seem more likely that this statement was just *MADE UP*
somewhere along the line? Doesn't it fit some sort of canonical
pattern for the types of "proof" offered for supernatural hooey?
[General discussion follows, may no longer apply to Alex Leavens...]
I offer this as the canonical pattern, though I admit it needs to
be polished up:
"Scientists are baffled by so maybe there is something
to this after all."
But does anybody follow the basic idea here? I often see the most
dubious information passed off as "unexplained" evidence for the
latest supernatural phenomena, yet while skeptics immediately pounce
on it trying to explain it away (like I did above with my objections
to "counterclockwise"), the most likely explanation is that the
evidence *isn't true to begin with*.
Now it may well turn out that these grasses are indeed braided in some
weird fashion, but the point is that that fact must be substantiated
*first*.
Even then the skeptic is faced with the exasperating negative argument
of the proponent: "There's no scientific explanation for , so
the supernatural interpretation must be true." This argument is used
to justify every scrap of supernatural garbage I've ever heard.
I've already mentioned that almost invariably never happened,
or is exaggerated or otherwise distorted (e.g., the "Hundredth Monkey"
controversy).
Next, the assertion that there is no scientific explanation (or at least
the implication: "difficult to do" in the above) is tossed out with
little or no justification ("Scientists baffled" in above and in any
issue of National Enquirer).
Finally, the negative part of the argument is the most insidious --
the proof by elimination: "Since there's no logical explanation, the
particular chain of ridiculous supernatural contingencies which I
advocate must be true." (For an example, pick the religion of your
choice.)
--
| Chuck Henkel | Curious about evolution? |
| Dep't. of Nuclear Engineering | Read Stephen J. Gould. |
| North Carolina State University | Support Nuclear Power |
| henkel%nefx4@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu | Who is John Galt? |
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Msg #: 969 SKEP Subboard
From: AXGREE01@ULKYVX.BITNET Sent: 03-14-90 15:40
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:34
Re: A PERSONAL MIRACLE
From: AXGREE01@ULKYVX.BITNET
Date: 14 Mar 90 03:15:00 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville
Message-ID: <9003140546.AA13529@jade.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In the following paragraphs I will present my personal case for
a belief in psychic phenomena. A better way of saying this is that
it would be a good personal case for belief IF I HAD NOT FIGURED
IT OUT. However, this pertains also to those people who feel they
have had experiences that cannot be explained without calling upon
a supernatural creator.
Most people who are believers in psychic phenomena or who just feel
that 'there must be something out there' are well meaning, honest,
reasonably intelligent people who offer personal anecdotal
experiences as personal evidence to support their beliefs. These
people will insist that they have had experiences for which no
rational explanation exists. In most cases the believer will go
so far as to insist that no rational explanation could be made.
The first part of this message tells of a personal anecdote of my own.
This is a true story as the universe is my witness. And this true
story is truly amazing.
The second part of this message tells how I figured out, quite by
luck, the solution to this miracle. The solution, while mundane,
will illustrate, I hope, how simple it is for even the most well-
intentioned and self-avowed skeptic to fool himself.
The final part will show how this instance justifies my conclusion -
that personal anecdote should not, and if we are honest, must not,
be accepted into the general store of scientific knowledge.
A MIRACLE!
----------
Friday morning, 9 Mar 90, I had a bad accident on my way to work.
My car was totalled by a land cruiser (a big car about the size of
a lincoln). No one was hurt (all wore seat belts) but I did bump
my head and an ambulance was called to the scene. I went home and
sulked the rest of the day.
The following morning I got a call from my grandmother. She was
almost in tears and said that my grandfather (who is close to the
end of his years and may not be alive in a few months) wanted to
see me badly. This is strange. They have never done this before
and I was worried that maybe he had another heart attack.
I finished feeding the baby and drove my wife's car to see my
grandpa. "How are you, grampa?" (I always tried to be cheerful
around him.) I said to him as he lay on his bed (he is very weak
these days). "But I was very worried about you, son." "I'm fine,
grampa. See I'm standin' right here." "So I see. But I've been
having some bad dreams about you and I was so worried. I just had
to see you and be sure you were alright." "Well, all is well,
grampa. What kind of bad dream did you have?" "I dreamed you were
in a bad car wreck and were hurt."
Miracle? haha! Mere Coincidence? YES! And I'll explain HOW shortly.
But please, take a moment, relax, believers, and ask what you would
do if you had been in my sneakers. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't
have instantly said to him, "IT'S A MIRACLE!" and sent your money off
to Jim and Tammy's replacements? Or gone out to buy Shirley Mclean's
latest book? Or done to the local crystal shop to focus some energy?
Analysis of a MIRACLE!
----------------------
The entire time my grandfather was telling me about his dream, I
thought perhaps he knew something he was not telling me. At the
accident the guy who hit me knew the police officer at the scene
AND the guy driving the wrecker! Since the accident was only a few
miles (say 5 miles) from my grandparents apartment, it is not
unlikely that this fellow knew them and had called them after the
accident. (My grandparents always brag about me to their friends!)
I thought this explanation unlikely, though, because my grandmother
would have known about the call and thus would be aware of the
situation (she obviously was not). Though this would be in
character for my grandfather who loves to keep information from you
if he thinks it will make him look omniscient. There HAD to be a
good explanation of this and MERE coincidence just didn't seem to
be a good one.
But then things came together! My grandfather told me that in his
dream I was driving drunk when I got into the accident. My
grandmother confirmed this and said that my grandfather had been
troubled ever since the previous weekend when I had told him that
I have been drinking alcohol since I was 24 years old!
The coincidence was NOT that my grandpa happened to have such a
dream when I had the accident! The coincident was that I had an
accident so soon after I had told my grandfather about the fact
that I drink alcohol. (I come from a very manipulative family.
My grandfather would have had his dreams regardless of any accident
I had had, so he would have the opportunity to ask me not to
drink.)
A lesson learned.
It would be entirely natural for anyone having experienced the sort
of event that I have described to account for it by assuming that
some sort of magical forces were at work. Human beings have a long
tradition of dealing with the unexplained in this fashion. Had I
not discovered the explanation for this miracle, I would honestly
use this in debate with 'true believers' as an example of an event
for which I had no explanation, but which I felt was explainable
without invoking the supernatural.
In many, many cases believers are so convinced that they won't find
anything that they don't see the obvious. In others the cause
truly is a mystery. But mystery does not imply miracle! Quantum
mechanics is a mystery to me! That doesn't make it magic!
To worsen matters, these believers invariably tie their reputations
(their egos) to their claims. They don't say, "I couldn't think
of any explanation." But "There simply WAS NO explanation." The
implication - I can't be fooled! I'm too smart! I'm too honest!
I'm too religious! But history tells us that the guy who says,
"I can't possibly have been fooled!" is usually the biggest pushover.
I hope that believers who have read this message will take it
to heart and really question their own claims to having witnessed
miracles.
Ever Fallible,
Keith Green
Small doubts;
Little wisdom.
Great doubts;
Deep wisdom.
- A Chinese Proverb
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Msg #: 970 SKEP Subboard
From: JIM MERITT Sent: 03-14-90 22:34
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:34
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: jwm@stdb.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt)
Date: 14 Mar 90 11:07:27 GMT
Organization: JHU-Applied Physics Laboratory
Message-ID: <4894@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <3270@pur-phy> sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Bruce
S. Woodcock) writes:
}I`m not advocated proof by majority rule or anything. What I`m trying to
get
}at is this: Mr. Preston (and others who feel the same way), I challenge
you
}to provide a system of evidence which you want to see that would prove
that
}these parapsychological phenomena exist, while still allowing you to
believe
}all of the other facts you currently believe in. The system of evidence
}required must be logical, objective, and scientifically verifiable.
I believe that I would add that the data must be verifiable by an
objective
disinterested (hostile would be preferred) observer. The conclusion
reached
by ssomeone with personal stakes in the outcome is supect.
}If you can do this, I believe I can present evidence for the existence of
these
}phenomena. If you cannot do this, then I suggest you either change your
}requirements for belief, change what it is you believe in, or get out of
}science altogether.
How much of the parapsychological data is verified by a qualified
scientific
without a personal take in the outcome? A stage performer will say
whatever
he is performing is true REGARDLESS. As we have seen numerous times, even
scientists have a tendency to decide in favor of their personal goals
in spite of the data. Check the arguments on the greenhouse effect, the
SCSC, the Challenger,.... If you cannot convince someone who has nothing
to gain, or better yet something to lose, there is a possibility that
the dreams have overriden the observation.
Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily
represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts,
however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone.
jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu - or - jwm@aplvax.uucp - or - meritt%aplvm.BITNET
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Msg #: 971 SKEP Subboard
From: CHRIS STUART Sent: 03-15-90 15:29
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:35
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: cjs@bruce.cc.monash.oz (Chris Stuart)
Date: 14 Mar 90 11:13:29 GMT
Organization: Monash Uni. Computer Centre, Australia
Message-ID: <1918@bruce.cc.monash.oz>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From article <3270@pur-phy>, by sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Bruce
S. Woodcock):
> In article <1533@key.COM> jsp@penguin.key.COM (James Preston) writes:
>>
>>No, no, no; YOU show ME some proof of "objects flying around" his room.
....
>>--James Preston
....
> unless you see the proof yourself. I assume that you are a fair man,
and as
> such apply your standards equally to all scientific enquiries.
Therefore,
> unless have done some heavy physics work, you probably don`t believe in:
>
> Most sub-atomic particles
> Particles that can exhibit wave properties, and vice-versa
> The fact that the pinpoints of light in the night sky are really
stars
....
> -Bruce Woodcock-
I think you overstate your case....
I think there is a genuine difference between the evidence for these
phenomena and for the parapsychological phenomena which is, in a word,
repeatability. Parapsychological phenomena are better compared with cold
fusion. In both cases, there are some experiments which would seem to
indicate that the phenomena exists, but others have had trouble
repeating them. I am skeptical about claims, but the matter remains open.
I will not believe in cold fusion until YOU (or someone) presents proof.
I will be quite satisfied with a proof by appeal to authority, if the
authority is based on experiments which have been reliably repeated by
a large body of people who work in hard physics, to the extent that I
could
reasonably believe more exeriments by hard physicists will get the same
results. Until then, I remain skeptical, and the degree of my skepticism
depends on the progress of attempts to achieve a reliable result.
Likewise I am skeptical about parapsychological phenomena -- and VERY
skeptical about claims of objects flying around rooms.
I have to agree with James. In the case of phenomena which cannot
be reliably repeated, the onus really is on you, or someone else,
to give the evidence. A small number of reports from individuals
who claim to have seen a phenomena for which no reasonable theory
exists is not enough.
Cheers -- Christopher Stuart
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Msg #: 972 SKEP Subboard
From: ALEX LEAVENS Sent: 03-15-90 15:30
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:35
Re: (R) THIS WHOLE FIELD CIRC
From: alex@athertn.Atherton.COM (Alex Leavens)
Date: 14 Mar 90 17:11:28 GMT
Organization: Atherton Technology, Sunnyvale, CA
Message-ID: <19922@laurel.athertn.Atherton.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Chuck Henkel writes about my comments about braiding and field
circles...
Sorry, my first posting was too brief (I tend to write in shorthand :-),
and led to the confusion of two issues; what I really should have said
was:
1) Many of the field circles exhibit a counter-clockwise rotational
pattern (I believe it's counter-clockwise; I don't have the ref
in front of me); ie, roughly 80% of the circles are cc, and only
20% are clockwise. This doesn't imply anything paranormal, or
otherwise--it's just an interesting fact that I hadn't seen
mentioned before.
2) Many of the field circles also exhibit a 'braiding' of the
grass, wheat, etc.; this braiding is apparently difficult to
do. The reason for this statement is that the braiding is
apparently more than a simple 'over and under' pattern. It isn't
all that hard to reproduce, actually; it's more of a serious
pain, especially when trying to do it in the context of the
circle (you can do it if you're not worried about reproducing
the field circle...)
I saw a tv special on this subject a while back; one of the
half hour science magazine type shows. I've also seen references
to it in a number of books, including 'An Alien Harvest' by
Linda Moulton Howe. (Interesting book, by the way.)
--
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|--alex | alex@Atherton.COM | Caution! Falling Opinions, next 6 miles
|
| New Net Address!!: UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax}!unisoft!bdt!dsdeng!alex
|
| "Mmmm...Ooo, say...Yummm......Blewuechh! Tiggers _don't_ like honey."
|
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Msg #: 973 SKEP Subboard
From: SULLIVAN Sent: 03-15-90 15:30
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:35
Re: (R) MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON
From: sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
Date: 14 Mar 90 15:09:28 GMT
Message-ID: <1398@nih-csl.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <3270@pur-phy>, sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Bruce S.
Woodcock) writes:
> In article <1533@key.COM> jsp@penguin.key.COM (James Preston) writes:
> >
> >No, no, no; YOU show ME some proof of "objects flying around" his room.
> >The word of "parapsychologists" who have seen it isn't worth the paper
> >it's written on.
>
> Mr. Preston, it seems you will not believe in parapsychological
phenomena
> unless you see the proof yourself. I assume that you are a fair man,
and as
> such apply your standards equally to all scientific enquiries.
Therefore,
> unless have done some heavy physics work, you probably don`t believe in:
>
> Most sub-atomic particles
> Particles that can exhibit wave properties, and vice-versa
> The fact that the pinpoints of light in the night sky are really
stars
[additional examples of common knowlege deleted]
I think this response to Mr. Preston is a bit unfair. To
compare a parapsychologist saying he saw something flying
around a room to rigorous scientific testing of the various
phenomenon you meantion is not a good comparison.
> Why do you not believe these things? Because they have not been
proven to you.
> What constitutes proof for you? Obviously not pictures, for they can
be faked.
> Even those pictures that experts conclude they don`t know whether or not
they
> are faked are unreliable.
I would guess that most people believe things when a large
body of people either see the thing first hand, or it is
rigourously tested and the results published for peer review
and verification. A picture of objects flying around a room
or the word of those predisposed to accept such an event
as real is not very rigourous.
> You have never seen these things with your own senses. And even if you
did,
> you might be misinterpretating other phenomena or hallucinating
entirely.
I think therefore I am... I think! Maybe you should apply
your arguement to those events that many say they experience
but can never reproduce in a scientific laboratory.
> After all, the words of "physicists" and "scientists" who have seen it
isn`t
> worth the paper it`s printed on.
Take the cold fusion announcement that happened a year ago.
At first, many thought it was someone playing as hoax or
possibly trying to grab some shortlived fame. But when it
turned out to be Pons and Fleishman, people took it seriously
BECAUSE their words ARE worth more than the paper they are
written on.
> Now, either Mr. Preston believes in very little, or he is not applying
his
> standards of belief uniformly across all phenomena. And we wouldn`t
want to
> be accused of that, would we Mr. Preston?
Belief is not a yes or no thing. I believe there is life
on other planets not because I want to or I am 100% sure, but
because statistically, I don't see how there could not be.
Mr. Preston is basically saying that you do the following
before believing the reality of something.
1) You consider the source of the information.
2) You consider the possibility of the whether
the thing's reality violates known physical laws.
3) You look to see whether others who you consider
credible consider the reality of the thing possible.
This list is not complete but begins to show how someone comes
to believe that the thing is probably real. I find the cold
fusion
phenomenon to be an excellent example of this and it is still
up in the air, with many comming down on all sides of whether
it is real or not. One thing about cold fusion however, some
labs have reported repeating the phenomenon... a phenomenon
that, if it is real, is very sporadic and not easy to repeat.
This has been done within a year. ESP, etc... has been around
for centuries and, to my knowlege, has not been repeated under
scientific testing.
> The Point: Evidence is evidence regardless of what is being claimed.
The use
> of the idea that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" is
purely
> subjective. If we use objective, scientific means for determining the
> existence of a given phenomena, then these standards must apply to all
> phenomena. If belief in the South Pole for you only requires a picture,
some
> articles written about it, and a large number of people who believe in
it (so
> chances of it being wrong is slim), why don`t you believe in
parapsychological
> phenomena? We have pictures of parapsychological events which cannot
be proven
> to be faked (there are ways such a photo could be faked, but it is
impossible
> given that photo whether or not it was faked), articles have been
written about
> them, more people have claimed to have observed psychic phenomena than
have
> seen the South Pole. And over 50% of the U.S. population believe in it.
Pictures can be faked. Parapsychologists haven't been able to
repeat their observations under scientific scrutiny. Some have
been caught cheating to produce the event. I agree that evidence
is evidence IF it is obtained in a scientific manner. When I was
in
the seventh grade I took a trash can lid and threw it across the
yard and took a picture of it. It looked like a UFO. I took it
into class and no one questioned that the picture might have been
faked. The fact that everyone believed the picture to be a real
UFO
DID NOT MAKE IT SO! Scientific testing is the only way to
prove something that is not considered to be real. So why is it
that
psychic phenomenon only occurs outside the laboratory?
> I`m not advocated proof by majority rule or anything. What I`m trying
to get
> at is this: Mr. Preston (and others who feel the same way), I challenge
you
> to provide a system of evidence which you want to see that would prove
that
> these parapsychological phenomena exist, while still allowing you to
believe
> all of the other facts you currently believe in. The system of evidence
> required must be logical, objective, and scientifically verifiable.
OK, I want to see a psychic event repeated many times
in many laboratories. I want to see papers in Journals.
I want to see respected scientific professionals be swayed
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 974 SKEP Subboard
From: CLIFF WHITE Sent: 03-15-90 16:26
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:36
Re: (R) PROOF THE HARD WAY .
From: cliffw@sequent.UUCP (Cliff White)
Date: 14 Mar 90 19:20:20 GMT
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc
Message-ID: <31225@sequent.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <34306@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
writes:
%In article <12.25fbb0f2@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu
writes:
%>In article <33184@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
writes:
%>> The following message appeared on rec.arts.sf-lovers, which will
%>>>From: rune.johansen%odin.re.nta.uninett@NAC.NO (Rune Henning Johansen)
%>>
%>> I would like to prove without using biology, geology or carbon-14
that
%>> man has been on earth more than a little over 6000 years. (Yes, I
have
%>> been talking with the Jehova's witnesses.)
%
Try Chinese history - i know they have records of astronomical
observations
that go back +3000 yrs - and they have other records dating back 5000 yrs
(i do believe)
--
cliffw
'If we can't fix it- we'll fix it so nobody can'- B. Gibbons
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Msg #: 975 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 03-15-90 19:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:34
Re: POSITIVISM AS A METHOD OF
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 14 Mar 90 23:04:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <49326302.c9b9@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn) posts...
>I am skeptical about the Scientific Method. This is a painful admission
to
>make, as I was raised and educated in the strictest of rational
>environments (atheist hardware engineer father, MIT EE degree). What
>makes us think that events arbitrarily labelled "supernatural" are
>open to scientific-method style inquiry? My understanding, such as it
is,
>indicates that the scientific method only applies to repeatable events
and
>is inappropriate for singular events.
> Maybe it is the very nature of things like ESP, precognition,
>UFOs, etc. to be unrepeatable, unfalsifiable, unquantifiable.
But what would constitute a "non repeatable" event that would still
fall among the kind of topics we discuss in this newsgroup?
If someone says that they "have ESP" they usually don't mean that they
had it once in their life. They are usually claiming that it happens
to them often, or at least, more often than "average". Somethimes they
are
claiming that they can make it happen, i.e., they can "read somebody's
mind" if so inclined or in the right frame of mind themselves. UFO
enthusiasts likewise claim that UFO's frequently appear and that these
appearances are often associated with some interaction with terrestrial
reality (showing up on radar, leaving impressions or burnt marks in the
ground, etc.) They don't claim that a UFO appeared once but does not
represent some sort of pattern or phenomenon. UFO organizations wouldn't
exist if that were the case. Astrology enthusiasts similarly claim some
kind of repeatability for their art. TM enthusiasts claim that anyone
in their siddhis program with right attitude can fly or become invisible.
Theists claim that prayer and faith actually work to produce tangible
results. Et Cetera, et cetera.
Thus the claims of repeatability come from the enthusiasts of these
practices
not from the scientific community.
We employ the scientific method because it works. No other form of
inquiry
has its track record. The scientific method has the advantage of
producing
steady progress in the precision of our descriptions of the subject
matter
within its domain and the reliability of our predictions about those
topics
over the centuries. It has the further advantage that it includes a
built-in method to resolve disputes. Moreover, the effects of applying
scientific knowledge are not believer-dependent. For instance, smallpox
vaccine works whether the recipient believes in viruses or not.
Contrast this with religion (to choose an alternate method of inquiry).
Religious inquiry makes *no* progress in the precision of its
descriptions
of the deity (-ies), the reliability of its predictions, or the
development
of consensus. Jews, Christians, and Islamics, for instance, have not
resolved any of their basic theological disputes over the centuries
because
there is nothing in the nature of religious inquiry to yield such
resolution.
Of course, one might argue that verifiability, predictablity, real-world
applicability, or belief-independence are arbitrary criteria for choosing
a method of inquiry. Perhaps there are other criteria which one might
use
and which might suggest the use of some other method (e.g., "naturalistic
inquiry" -- I'm not familiar with this term, perheps you could define
it).
But what might these criteria be? And how do you suggest we choose
them?
If you had an inquiry method which assumed multiple realities and no
causation how would you USE this approach in everyday life? How
would it influence the design in engineering projects like commercial
aircraft or computers? Indeed, what would constitute "inquiry"
in such a system and would there be any way to build up a base
of knowledge? What, if anything, would "true" and "false"
mean in such a system?
I think that the success of the scientific method is that it produces
practical results with reasonable consistency. It is hard to imagine a
"non repeatable" phenomenon which would be of any benefit to anybody
since if it's truly non-repeatable then you can't count on it even in
an AVERAGE sense.
Pointing out limitations in science's descriptive or even theoretical
basis (e.g., the Uncertainty Principle) doesn't change the nature of
science or suggest that it is flawed. After all, no other method of
inquiry has been shown to overcome these limitations either.
---Peter
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Msg #: 976 SKEP Subboard
From: NICHAEL CRAMER Sent: 03-15-90 19:42
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:35
Re: HOW MANY PEOPLE? 100BILL
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Date: 14 Mar 90 22:42:06 GMT
Message-ID: <53522@bbn.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <35366@mips.mips.COM>, vaso@mips.COM (Vaso Bovan) writes:
> ... The question is: what percentage of all people ever alive,
> are alive today ?...
[Since nobody else seems to have taken a crack at this...]
OK gang, let's get out the backs of our envelopes...
The question was asked "How many people have ever lived/what fraction
of them are alive now?". My copy of "World Almanac and Book of Facts"
gives the following table (unfortunately they don't give a reference,
but the values seem reasonable):
Date Number of People Alive
10000BCE : 10Million
1 CE : 300M
1650 " : 570M
1700 " : 625M
1750 " : 710M
1850 " : 1,130M
1900 " : 1,600M
1950 " : 2,510M
1970 " : 3,575M
1990 " : 5,200M
Now, for sake of simplicity, let us assume that the rate of population
growth over any one of the periods is linear. Therefore, the number
of people whose lives are represented during any period is just the
average number of people alive at any given time during the period,
times the length of the period divided by the average human lifetime
(for this last value, I'll assume a nice, round figure of 50yr/life).
[Note that this linear interpolation really gives us an upper bound.]
So, during the first period above (10000BCE-1CE) we have:
[Average number of people]
[ alive at a given time ] X [Length of the Period]
---------------------------------------------------------
[Average Lifetime of a human]
(145*10^6) * (10*10^4)
= --------------------------
50
= 3.1X10^10
So, ~30 Billion lives were lived between 10000BCE (very roughly,
the start of agriculture) and 1CE.
Continuing in the way, we get:
From To Million Lives
10,000BCE - 1CE -> 31,003
1CE - 1650CE -> 14,346
1650CE - 1700CE -> 597
1700CE - 1750CE -> 667
1750CE - 1850CE -> 1,840
1850CE - 1900CE -> 1,365
1900CE - 1950CE -> 2,055
1950CE - 1970CE -> 1,217
1970CE - 1990CE -> 1,755
------
54,845
Now the (another?) big uncertainty is when to begin this calculation;
i.e. what about the number of people before 10,000BCE. Although the
genus Homo has existed for a few million years, the standard figure
I've seen quoted for how long modern man has been around is "between
50,000 and 500,000 years". Using these two extremes, we get the
following additional number of lives:
from to
50,000BCE - 10,000BCE -> 4,000,000,000
500,000BCE - 10,000BCE -> 49,000,000,000
So, so far, we have a total of from approximately 59 - 104 Billion
people.
Finally, we should note that we have concerned ourselves only with
people who have lived adult lives. In many primitive societies it's
not unusual for 1/2 of all children born to die in infancy or early
childhood, so if factor in these (assuming [1] that this represents a
good model for most of humankind over its history and [2] that we want
the total number of people who ever lived) we could probably fold in
another factor of two or so.
So taking the extremes we get a value of from about 55 to 200 Billion
people, or, roughly a Hundred Billion give or take a factor of 2.
Consequently, somewhere between 2.5 and 8.8 percent of all people who
ever lived are alive right now. (Someone else quoted "3 to 5
percent"; I remember reading [somewhere] "one in thirty"; given the
uncertainties in the above, this seems like reasonable agreement.)
N
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Msg #: 977 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 03-15-90 19:43
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:35
Re: (R) POSITIVISM AS A METHO
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 15 Mar 90 02:29:00 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <49326302.c9b9@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
Nelson) writes:
I think that the success of the scientific method is that it produces
practical results with reasonable consistency. It is hard to imagine
a
"non repeatable" phenomenon which would be of any benefit to anybody
since if it's truly non-repeatable then you can't count on it even in
an AVERAGE sense.
Pointing out limitations in science's descriptive or even theoretical
basis (e.g., the Uncertainty Principle) doesn't change the nature of
science or suggest that it is flawed. After all, no other method of
inquiry has been shown to overcome these limitations either.
I don't think that what we call non-repeatable happens sporadically, I
just think we don't yet know how to reliably make it happen. A good
analogy can be taken from behavioral experiments where rats were given
rewards at random. The rats developed elaborate rituals in the hopes
of getting another reward when the rituals in fact did nothing. I
think that's the stage where we're at now. People have a paranormal
experience of some kind and then try to come up with an explanation
for why it occurred. Unfortunately, the set of data is limited
enough that these explanations are often flawed. In fact, much like a
rat can't conceive of his reward as being part of an experiment, we
may not be able to understand the true causation of paranormal
phenomena.
Just because something isn't repeatable does not in any way mean that
it didn't occur. So often it seems that when someone reports
something like this it is automatically assumed that they are either a
fool or a liar. In fact, the general tone of many of you in this
discussion seems to be to sarcastically dismiss a topic a priori or to
hold it to irrationally higher standards than you would a more
"conventional" subject.
I once met the most successful dowser in Minnesota. He said to me, "I
initially went into this a skeptic, but I've been doing it for a
living for 25 years and I've only come up dry once." He seemed to be
a relatively honest, clear-headed guy. However, when I told my friend
about this he started asking questions like "how do you know he wasn't
lying?" (knowledgable friends at the party vouched for him) "did you
get to see documentation?" (no, I don't usually bring that to a
party, do you?" The point is, had I told him I'd met a quantum
physicist or a surgeon, he would of said "oh, that's nice." It's
precisely this kind of ignorance of raw data and irrationally high
standards to protect one's preconceptions that infuriates me. The guy
hasn't come up dry more than once in 25 years! He must be doing
something right! Just because not everyone isn't a good douser
doesn't mean it doesn't (in some way) work.
This is just one example. I also have friends who regularly see
ghosts and have out of body experiences. They're not making it up and
they're not stupid. However, I defy you to prove with conventional
scientific methods that what happens to them is real. You can't, so it
must be false. Isn't black and white logic a wonderful thing? Hell,
I might be lying to you all right now. That's right, it was all just
a big joke. You can go back to sleep now....
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
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Msg #: 978 SKEP Subboard
From: EDWARD SURANYI Sent: 03-16-90 08:29
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:37
Re: (R) POSITIVISM AS A METHO
From: ed@das.llnl.gov (Edward Suranyi)
Date: 15 Mar 90 22:47:26 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Applied Science, UC Davis at LLNL
Message-ID: <52452@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1400@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
writes:
>In article , eiverson@nmsu.edu
>(Eric Iverson) writes:
>> I once met the most successful dowser in Minnesota. He said to me, "I
>> initially went into this a skeptic, but I've been doing it for a
>> living for 25 years and I've only come up dry once."
> Your friends point was that you took his word because he
> was a clear headed guy.
Your point (that the dowser's words were believed without evidence),
and the point of another writer (that the mind can learn to recognize
surface features that lead to underground water) are both correct.
But nobody has brought up the most interesting fact, which I came
across while reading about dowsers. It's simply hard to find a place
in this country where you will *not* find water if you dig deep enough.
Certainly, I expect water to be easily found throughout Minnesota.
The only really good test of dowsing that I know of is described
by James Randi in his book _Flim-Flam_. He laid water pipes
in three paths, with a common source and drain. Then he covered the
pipes with soil, but left the source and drain showing. There were
valves so that only one of the three invisible paths would be open
at a time. He asked the contenders (there were five, I think) if
they would have any trouble detecting water in lead pipes. They said
they wouldn't. Now the experiment started.
First, with the water off, each contender was asked to go over
the experimental area and determine if there were any natural
underground sources of water. This was to make sure they couldn't
claim later that they were confused by such natural sources. Next,
the water was turned on, and one of the valves was opened at random.
The contender could see the water flowing at the source and drain;
he or she had to figure out the path it took under the soil. Each
contender would pound a stake into the earth about every half meter,
to indicate where he thought the pipe was. The trial was considered
a success if the stakes were within a half-foot of the real path.
Each contender had three tries, with the water path chosen randomly
for each try. He or she needed two out of three successes to be
declared real. This was all agreed to beforehand by the contenders.
Well, guess what? None of the contenders came even close! They
even disagreed about the presence or absence of natural water
sources!
Of course, this doesn't prove that dowsing isn't real. But these
contenders had been narrowed down from a list of hundreds as being
the most successful. And it *is*, as far as I'm concerned, the
only legitimate test of dowsing.
Ed
ed@das.llnl.gov
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Msg #: 979 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC PEPKE Sent: 03-16-90 08:29
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:37
Re: (R) POSITIVISM AS A METHO
From: pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Date: 15 Mar 90 18:03:39 GMT
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
Message-ID: <572@fsu.scri.fsu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric
Iverson) writes:
> I don't think that what we call non-repeatable happens sporadically, I
> just think we don't yet know how to reliably make it happen. A good
> analogy can be taken from behavioral experiments where rats were given
> rewards at random. The rats developed elaborate rituals in the hopes
> of getting another reward when the rituals in fact did nothing.
This says something different to me. It says that it is very easy for
rats to be fooled into deriving causal relationships where none exist.
People are a bit like that, too. This is why the scientific method is so
needed. It is easy to come up with an explanation which fits the facts
and satisfies the desire to know, but that does not automatically mean
that it is accurate. It may be a good place to start, but to be sure it
is correct you still have to investigate it. This is where the scientific
method comes in handy.
> People have a paranormal
> experience of some kind and then try to come up with an explanation
> for why it occurred. Unfortunately, the set of data is limited
> enough that these explanations are often flawed. In fact, much like a
> rat can't conceive of his reward as being part of an experiment, we
> may not be able to understand the true causation of paranormal
> phenomena.
But even labeling an experience "paranormal" means deciding on a whole set
of explanations and causal relationships, which set exclude some of the
commonest reasons for such experiences. A skeptical view would be that,
before you decide something is paranormal, you must rule out the
possibility that it is normal. The only way I know to do that is to
search for normal explanations and see if they fit. There is a big
difference between "unexplained" and "unexplainable," and the difference
is the natural realm of scientific enquiry.
> Just because something isn't repeatable does not in any way mean that
> it didn't occur. So often it seems that when someone reports
> something like this it is automatically assumed that they are either a
> fool or a liar.
Well, sometimes this happens, but most of the time it's something else.
There is a problem in that people sometimes feel shame when they make
errors or when they are fooled. Unfortunately, this shame gets in the
way. The ability to make errors and learn from them is a strength, not a
weakness. The vulnerability because one can be fooled is also natural,
and being aware of and admitting one's vulnerability is likewise a great
strength. Sadly, this does not come easily, especially for survivors of
many of the common educational methods.
So, when person A says to person B, "You have been fooled," person B often
automatically translates it into "You are a fool." This often results in
an inference of insult to intelligence where none is meant, and the angry
response of B, by diverting the discussion into the realm of the emotions,
often elicits a response from A which seems to confirm the translation.
This is one of the reasons that magic shows are so good for the sprit. It
is enlightening to know that one can be fooled in an pleasant way, and
that it does not mean an insult to intelligence. Quite to the contrary,
the more intelligent and knowledgable a person becomes, the more ways that
person can be fooled. Often scientists, especially experts in certain
fields, can easily be fooled simply because they acquire a certain set of
assumptions about that field which limit their ability to apply the
general scientific method to other fields. I have no idea how David
Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty appear to vanish. This does not
mean that it really vanished by paranormal means or that I am stupid; it
just means that Mr. Copperfield is a master of his profession with
consummate skill.
Unfortunately, if you go to a magic show there's usually one person in the
party who will brag about how he or she could see through every trick and
get celebrity points for being blase' about the whole thing.
> I once met the most successful dowser in Minnesota. He said to me, "I
> initially went into this a skeptic, but I've been doing it for a
> living for 25 years and I've only come up dry once." He seemed to be
> a relatively honest, clear-headed guy. However, when I told my friend
> about this he started asking questions like "how do you know he wasn't
> lying?"
> ...
> The guy
> hasn't come up dry more than once in 25 years! He must be doing
> something right! Just because not everyone isn't a good douser
> doesn't mean it doesn't (in some way) work.
Asking whether he was lying is not the best question to ask first,
especially as it tends to turn the discussion into one of integrity.
Also, it's not very likely that he was lying.
Let us assume, without documentation, that everything the man said was
true. It is a quite reasonable assumption. Such amazing abilities
certainly do exist.
However, calling it "dowsing" automatically suggests a general
explanation: This stick or branch or coat hanger plays a causal role in
his ability to find water.
Here's an alternate explanation. Groundwater has a massive effect on
everything. It affects patterns of plant growth, even when growth is very
sparse. It is strongly correlated with the shape and lay of the land. In
fact, it is often possible to drill and find water in a desert just by
observing the pattern of the dunes. It affects the color and texture of
the soil. All these changes may be subtle to a casual observer, but to an
experienced observer may be as clear as a billboard. Say your dowser
wants to learn dowsing. He goes through a period of training or
experimentation in how to use the stick. He feels good when he finds
water and bad when he doesn't. While he is learning, he is also learning
to pick up cues from his environment. He does this without knowing what
he is learning. Most of the things we know we pick up without being
explicitly aware of them. When he has a success, however, there is an
obvious explanation. It's the stick! The success gives him more
confidence, and this, in turn, makes his mind work better to the task at
hand.
Maybe at the same time there are other people learning dowsing, and maybe
they don't have quite as good observational powers or memory as he does.
So, maybe they drop out of training and become farmers and doctors and
lawyers. But this one dowser sticks with it, and after many, many years
of experience, he becomes the finest dowser in Minnesota!
Now, what is more likely, the dowsing hypothesis, where the stick through
unknown paranormal forces helps the dowser find water? Or is it more
likely that the skill lies in the most mysterious and marvelous
unexplained force, the human mind, and that the stick merely responds to
the movements of the fingers which merely respond to a vast array of
indescribably judgements of probability, based on years of experience that
cannot be articulated? Is it not more likely that the dowser's stick
plays the same role as Babe Ruth's bat or Saul Bellow's typewriter, that
of a tool used, in perhaps a somewhat arbitrary way to experess a great
skill?
You can test this hypothesis using the scientific method. First of all,
if a stick works, then anything else should work--a dried rutabaga, a copy
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 980 SKEP Subboard
From: KENNETH MARK MAXHAM Sent: 03-17-90 01:50
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:38
Re: (R) PROOF THE HARD WAY .
From: max@rice.edu (Kenneth Mark Maxham)
Date: 16 Mar 90 05:22:07 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas
Message-ID: <5811@brazos.Rice.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
With regard to trying to convince Witnesses, I heartily recommend
not wasting your time. They came to my door some years ago, and
ignoring the advice of my mother ("Get rid of them!") I engaged
one of their versions of a biology text. I sat down with a pad and
pen and dissected the misleading and misinformed arguments. I gave
up after page 50: I had nearly as many handwritten pages of dispute.
I touched on carbon dating, Darwinism, the earth's cooling rate,
solar evolution, and mutation theory (among other things.) When
they came back, I had my notes at the ready. When I tried to go
down my list and explain where their book was in error, I got blank
stares. The middle aged lady and young guy with her were totally
scientifically illiterate. They had no answer save "the truth is
to be found in the scriptures, in the word of Our Lord and Savior."
I suppose I could have guessed as much.
BTW, if you want to get rid of them easily, just say you've "been
witnessed." If you didn't already know, their big thing is to give
everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, a shot at their version of heaven,
so if you've had your chance and blown it they're off the hook.
--max
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Msg #: 981 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBIN DALE HANSON Sent: 03-17-90 01:50
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:38
Re: (R) POSITIVISM AS A METHO
From: hanson@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (Robin Dale Hanson)
Date: 16 Mar 90 05:24:03 GMT
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Message-ID: <4471@bayes.ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In <49326302.c9b9@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
writes:
>We employ the scientific method because it works. No other form of
inquiry
>has its track record. The scientific method has the advantage of
producing
>steady progress in the precision of our descriptions of the subject
matter
>within its domain and the reliability of our predictions about those
topics
>over the centuries. It has the further advantage that it includes a
>built-in method to resolve disputes. Moreover, the effects of applying
>scientific knowledge are not believer-dependent. For instance, smallpox
>vaccine works whether the recipient believes in viruses or not.
I tire of these rah-rah defenses of "THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD". Let us be
skeptics for a moment, shall we? What evidence do we have that there is
such a thing? I mean, at various times in history various groups of
people have found it suited their fancy to use the word "science" to
label their studies. But is there really anything important in common
in the way these groups go a about their business? That distinguishes
them from other people going about their business? Even if there are
some general tendencies that happen to correlate with labeling oneself a
"scientist", such as wearing a white coat, I presume not all of them are
to be considered part of "the method".
A method should be something more like a recipe or algorithm, something
one can follow. Something EXPLICIT. But where is it?
Saying things like "science is verifiable, predictable, applicable,
objective, repeatable, and has consensus" is of little help. This is just
a wish list of features you would like your method to have, features that
most people like, scientists or not, all else being equal.
And saying things like "Do try to make your theories consistent, and
try to check them out from various angles" is also not much help.
This is just plain common sense, that I bet most any human any time
in the last 3000 years would agree to.
Peter writes further:
>Contrast this with religion (to choose an alternate method of inquiry).
>Religious inquiry makes *no* progress in the precision of its
descriptions
>of the deity (-ies), the reliability of its predictions, or the
development
>of consensus.
Contrasting with "the religious method" does not help unless we know
what that is. And these claims of performance seem suspect. How much
progress has the scientific method made on descriptions of deities? And
it is not at all obvious that we should credit the smallpox vaccine to
the wearing of white coats, or whatever it is that the scientific method
is supposed to be, rather than just plain hard work on many people's
part. Were other methods tried at a comparable
level of effort?
Robin Hanson hanson@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (or hanson@charon.arc.nasa.gov)
415-604-3361 MS244-17, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA 94035
415-651-7483 47164 Male Terrace, Fremont, CA 94539-7921
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Msg #: 982 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 03-19-90 02:03
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:39
Re: : RE: POSITIVISM AS A MET
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 18 Mar 90 19:56:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <4945d85e.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
>Just because something isn't repeatable does not in any way mean that
>it didn't occur. So often it seems that when someone reports
>something like this it is automatically assumed that they are either a
>fool or a liar. In fact, the general tone of many of you in this
>discussion seems to be to sarcastically dismiss a topic a priori or to
>hold it to irrationally higher standards than you would a more
>"conventional" subject.
From a logical positivist standpoint this is perfectly reasonable.
If someone reported that they spent last night in a town called
Middletown, Massachusetts, where half the houses are made of brick
I might be a little skeptical because I've never heard of Middletown
and wood-frame construction is by far the most common type of
construction in New England. But there's nothing SO implausible
in the story that I would start demanding proof. But this fellow
added that all those brick houses mysteriously hover 10 feet off
the grounf then I might get a little suspicious and ask for higher
standards of proof. What's wrong with this, from a positivist
standpoint?
>This is just one example. I also have friends who regularly see
>ghosts and have out of body experiences. They're not making it up and
>they're not stupid. However, I defy you to prove with conventional
>scientific methods that what happens to them is real.
I don't know about ghosts, but out-of-body experiences are pretty
easy to test for. You simply have the subject describe some object
that they would have no way of seeing from "within" their body
asleep on the bed.
---Peter
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Msg #: 983 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 03-19-90 02:03
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:39
Re: (R): RE: POSITIVISM AS A
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 18 Mar 90 22:58:31 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <4945d85e.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
Nelson) writes:
> >This is just one example. I also have friends who regularly see
> >ghosts and have out of body experiences. They're not making it up
and
> >they're not stupid. However, I defy you to prove with conventional
> >scientific methods that what happens to them is real.
>
> I don't know about ghosts, but out-of-body experiences are pretty
> easy to test for. You simply have the subject describe some object
> that they would have no way of seeing from "within" their body
> asleep on the bed.
You take me too literally. When I say "out of body experience", I am
refering to the physiological and psychological aspects. By this I
mean that most OBE's are accompanied by a state of physical paralysis
as well as a number of other symptoms. These have been well
documented in the literature. My friend Paul began having these
symptoms at age 12 (before even knowing what an OBE was) and thought
that he had some sort of nervous disorder or something. However,
after reading the literature, it "all fell into place" and he realized
he was having OBEs. Now whether he can actually see through walls is
(to my mind) incidental. This may only be an advanced stage of lucid
dreaming or connected to NDEs in some way. But just because he can't
see through walls doesn't mean he's making up the symptoms.
Another friend of mine, Tom, had an OBE where his "astral body" sat up
in bed and looked in the mirror. However, instead of seeing himself
in the mirror, he saw one of the greys. Not being familiar with
ufo's and aliens, he told a friend who showed him a picture of a grey
that an abductee had drawn. Tom's mouth dropped open and he said "my
god, that's it..." and proceeded to keep looking at the pictures over
and over again. Now I'm not going to say he actually saw an alien.
But if that was a dream, it was a hell of a lot more realistic than
anything I've ever had. Collective unconscious? Subconscious
memories? I'm not qualified to say. All I know is that he
experienced *something* and he wasn't "just fooling himself."
Yet another friend, Steve, woke up in the middle of the night to find
the outer room of his dorm pitch black save for what looked like
stars. At the foot of his bed sat a shadowy figure who was wearing
some type of luminous lace. The figure "said" (no actual words were
exchanged) "come on, it's time to go" to which Steve replied "No, I
want to stay" and closed his eyes tightly. When he opened his eyes
again, the figure was gone, the outer room was back to normal, and all
three of his roommates turned over in their beds simultaneously.
My friend Jeanie was laying in bed half asleep while her father was
seriously ill down the hall. At the foot of her bed she heard the
following conversation:
Man1: Will the father be all right?
Man2: Yeah, he'll be ok.
Man1: What about her?
Man2: She'll be fine.
Again, all these cases may just be some advanced form of hypnogogia.
However, if so, it ain't like anything I've ever experienced. And no,
I don't think there's a lab test in existance that could prove whether
they actually saw/heard something or just thought they did. But even if
they did imagine it, it would seem to me that the human brain must be
a lot more complex and powerful than we've previously thought.
It would seem like we could dismiss this if it were only limited to a
few cases. But there's so damn many of them! Either humans are the
most gullible species on the planet, or something seriously weird is
going on. Either way, I think it's fascinating.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN,
DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a
cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
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Msg #: 984 SKEP Subboard
From: RONALD AMUNDSON Sent: 03-19-90 05:35
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:41
Re: MAGIC CRYSTALS, MAGIC RAT
From: ronald@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Ronald Amundson)
Date: 19 Mar 90 03:51:21 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii
Message-ID: <6997@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.misc,sci.physics,sci.psychology,sci.skeptic
I only recently came across the net discussions of the "Hundredth
Monkey Phenonenon" (HMP), and was flattered that several people
cited my debunking of the myth in the _Skeptical Inquirer_
(reprinted in _Fringes of Reason_ and elsewhere).
Sorry about this late posting, but I'll add a few comments on
peripheral issues which came up in the discussions.
Several people mentioned the two other most popular "scientific"
cases of formative causation: miracles involving growth in
crystals and rats in mazes. Here's some background on them:
Crystals: Lyall Watson in "Lifetides" reported a case in which
two scientists who had been unable to crystalize glycerine
purchased some crystals from a supplier and found "that soon
after their first crystals arrived in the mail and were used
successfuly for inducing crystallization in an experiment on one
sample of glycerine, all the other glycerine in their laboratory
began to crystallize spontaneously, despite the fact that some
was sealed in airtight containers." (p. 47) The reference is to
a fairly obscure 1923 paper in a chemical journal. There are
several minor distortions in Watson's report, but the main
question is whether airtight containers of glycerine
spontaneously crystalized as a result of glycerine crystals
showing up in the same room. [The envelope please....] The
answer is: There is no reason to think so. The report of the
complex experimental procedures is completely ambiguous on the
sequence of the sealing, mail delivery, etc. I thought I might
be missing something in the paper, so I asked A. G. Cairns-Smith,
a rather prominent crystal specialist, to comment on it. He
simply couldn't tell from the 1923 report exactly how the
experiment had been conducted. He did offer two or three more
plausible hypotheses than "mind seeds," however. The 1923 paper
was Watson's only source on the miraculousness of this event.
Neither Cairns-Smith nor I were led to interpret the same paper
in Watson's creative way. In other words, a creative
interpretation of an ambiguous and obscure experimental report
done by scientists who are now dead.
Psychic Rats: Rupert Sheldrake reported that an experiment on rats'
maze learning showed that the more rats learned a maze, the easier it
was for _later_ rats to learn it. Even when the rats were unrelated
and lived thousands of miles apart. ("Towards a New Theory of Life"
pp. 186 ff.) Here's the poop. The experiments were run by William
MacDougall, a prominent spiritualistic (he said "animistic")
psychologist, and a vitalist Lamarckian in biology. They began in
1920 at Harvard, but continued when MacDougall moved to Duke. The
last results were published in 1938. MacDougall's collaborator at
first was the (in)famous J. B. Rhine, the founder of the Duke center
for ESP research. (Hmmmmm.) Rhine was coauthor of the first paper
(of four), but left the project because he had bigger fish to fry.
The experiments were intended to show that the offspring of rats who
learned a particular "maze" would "inherit" the wisdom of their
ancestors. The "maze" was a simple choice between a lighted and an
unlighted exit from a water tank. The experiments were ASTONISHLY
poorly designed. One example (of many) is that MacDougall didn't even
bother to keep pedigrees of the rats, an amazing oversight in a
Lamarckian experiment. (For all we know, the entire 1938 colony were
the 20th generation descendants of the two brightest 1920 beginners.)
Later replicators had rats which learned the maze very quickly even
without the breeding histories. This, Sheldrake says, supports his
"formative causation" theory. He doesn't mention that the
replicators' apparatus was discovered to be significantly different
from MacDougall's as a result of the crudeness of MacDougall's
published description.
Sheldrake, unlike Watson, is a genuine student of the history of
science -- specifically of vitalist and spiritualist biology. But he
twists and jams the data into a preconceived New Age metaphysics just
as much as Watson.
With these cases, unlike the Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon, there's no
smoking gun. But there's no real evidence either. If you're wishful
enough and you squint a little you can see dragons dancing in the
campfire. If we all clap our hands, Tinkerbell will live.
Ron Amundson
Dept. of Philosophy
University of Hawaii at Hilo
ronald@uhccux.bitnet
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Msg #: 985 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL JOHNSON Sent: 03-19-90 09:26
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:41
Re: (R)BRITISH FIELD CIRCLES
From: paj@mrcu (Paul Johnson)
Date: 16 Mar 90 09:24:45 GMT
Organization: GEC-Marconi Research Centre, Great Baddow, UK
Message-ID: <466@argus.mrcu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
>The evidence is also consistent with a secretive ritual magic group
>doing circle rituals outside at night.... Contrary to a number of
>claims, skeptics *have* been able to reproduce the circles by foot.
Who, when, where and how? References please.
The photographs I have seen of the circles (mainly in "Circular
Evidence") show otherwise undamaged stems bent over near ground level.
It does not seem consistent with your theory. They also show circles
with and without footprints leading to them. Where footprints are
present they are alledged to be made by discoverers walking over to
look. They show how impossible it is to walk through a field of waist
high corn without leaving a clear trail. How do your pagans get to
their ritual sites without leaving trails?
>The rise in the number of circles over the last decade would be due
>to the common phenomenon of "hiving", where a group undergoes a
>friendly divorce when the size becomes unmanageable.
If there has been a rise, it would seem reasonable to expect a human
cause of the phenomenon. On the other hand, perhaps there has only
been a rise in reports due to publicity.
>...someone might actually have a *reason* to go walking around in
>circles in fields in the dead of night. If so, the circles they
>leave in the crops might be epiphenomenal, and they are not
>"hoaxers".
Fair enough.
>Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
--
Paul Johnson UUCP:
!mcvax!ukc!gec-mrc!paj
--------------------------------!-------------------------|------------
------
GEC-Marconi Research is not | Telex: 995016 GECRES G | Tel: +44
245 73331
responsible for my opinions. | Inet: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc | Fax: +44
245 75244
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Msg #: 986 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL M. KOLOC Sent: 03-19-90 13:33
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:42
Re: (R)HOW MANY PEOPLE? 100B
From: pmk@prometheus.UUCP (Paul M. Koloc)
Date: 18 Mar 90 22:41:33 GMT
Organization: Prometheus II, Ltd.
Message-ID: <1990Mar18.224133.26465@prometheus.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <53633@bbn.COM> ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
writes:
>This doesn't make sense either. The real reasons for explosive
population
>growth have been technological (e.g. the development of agriculture).
>There have *always* been enough people around --and mates easy enough
to
>find-- to fuel growth.
>Granted, once a carrying capacity has been reached, a population may
stay
>at a fixed value for a long time, but if it does so for a *long* time
(and
>we're talking tens of thousands of years) it will still add up.
What is critical is the total bio mass! It is DECREASING because carbon
dioxide has been sucked out of the atmosphere by trillions of tiny
ocean
born creatures, forming carbonates, that have been building up chalk
beds.
The process has been recently spurred on by river apes whose
agricultural
efforts add nutrients to the seas. Consequently, plants are no longer
able
to grow at rates any where near their optimal rates and can not hold
their
own against climate or man as before. What is needed is huge additions
of pure carbon dioxide into the atmosphere to help increase cloud cover
and
provide the tera tons of carbon necessary if plant life is to cover the
world's substantial desert areas. A cool world is covered in flora.
THEN we can talk about 'carrying capacity'.
>Maybe what the show meant was that there are more people alive now than
>have ever been alive at any given time.
What's in being a member of the LAST great population?
Let's really be Greenies and NOT BROWNIES.
Support PLANT rights
+---------------------------------------------------------+**********+
+ +Commercial*
| Paul M. Koloc, President (301) 445-1075 ***FUSION***
| Prometheus II, Ltd.; College Park, MD 20740-0222 ****this****
| mimsy!prometheus!pmk; pmk@prometheus.UUCP ***decade***
+---------------------------------------------------------************
NOTE: "COMMERCIAL"
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Msg #: 987 SKEP Subboard
From: DENNIS.F.MEYER Sent: 03-19-90 14:38
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:42
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: dfmeyer@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (dennis.f.meyer)
Date: 19 Mar 90 15:08:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Message-ID: <14495@cbnewsc.ATT.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <9501@imagen.UUCP> isaak@imagen.UUCP (Mark Isaak) writes:
>in article <994@tahoma.UUCP>, jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn) says:
>> I am skeptical about the Scientific Method.
>
>Good. A true skeptic is skeptical about everything, even skepticism
itself.
>
Are you sure about that?
--
Dennis F. Meyer att!ihlpl!dfm |"Most folks are just about as happy
as they
AT&T Network Systems 708/510-2277 | make up their minds to be." -- Abe
Lincoln
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Msg #: 988 SKEP Subboard
From: JAN WILLEM NIENHUYS Sent: 03-19-90 14:38
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:42
Re: BROWNOUT AND BABIES
From: wsadjw@eutws1.win.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Date: 19 Mar 90 13:34:55 GMT
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands
Message-ID: <1633@tuegate.tue.nl>
Newsgroups: sci.misc,sci.skeptic
Some years ago (10?) there was a power failure in New York, I believe in
the summer, maybe caused by lightning or overload. I forgot. It lasted
quite long.
Nine months later it was said that there was a small birth explosion. I
remember people not believing that, contradicting that, or claiming that
the rise in birth rate was altogether within the bounds of normal
statistical
fluctuations. But wherever I read about it, I have forgotten.
My question: when was this? Does anyone have or know written sources on
this
subject? Please e-mail your responses to me. Quite possibly the Am.
Journal
of Obstetrics & Gynecology had something about it, but we don't have
that
in our Math. Library.
J.W. Nienhuys,
Research Group Discrete Mathematics, Dept. of Mathematics and Computing
Science
Eindhoven University of Technology, P.O. BOX 513, 5600 MB Eindhoven
The Netherlands
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Msg #: 989 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 03-19-90 14:38
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:42
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 18 Mar 90 20:45:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <494603ef.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
hanson@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (Robin Dale Hanson) posts...
>In <49326302.c9b9@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
writes:
>>We employ the scientific method because it works. No other form of
inquiry
>>has its track record. The scientific method has the advantage of
producing
>>steady progress in the precision of our descriptions of the subject
matter
>>within its domain and the reliability of our predictions about those
topics
>>over the centuries. It has the further advantage that it includes a
>>built-in method to resolve disputes. Moreover, the effects of
applying
>>scientific knowledge are not believer-dependent. For instance,
smallpox
>>vaccine works whether the recipient believes in viruses or not.
>
>I tire of these rah-rah defenses of "THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD".
So?
> I mean, at various times in history various groups of
>people have found it suited their fancy to use the word "science" to
>label their studies. But is there really anything important in common
>in the way these groups go a about their business? That distinguishes
>them from other people going about their business?
Yes. In a word, "skepicism". A result is not considered "true"
unless it is replicated at different laboratories and by different
researchers. Notice the emphasis on trying to replicate the results
of Ponds and Fleischman or of the recent claims by some Japanese
concerning alleged changes in mass of a spinning gyroscope.
Elaborate efforts are made to ensure that experimental bias and
other sources of error are excluded in tests.
Skepticism is what's absent in the religious and "new age" paradigms.
If a channel announces that she's just had a conversation with the
"Zar", a wood-stain god from 15,000 BC, then that's good enough for
many new-agers. If God comes to a faithful follower in a dream and
tells him to kill his son, this is good enough for the true believer.
Moreover, the story of this event in the Bible is unskeptically
accepted
as true by most fundamentalist Christians and Jews.
>A method should be something more like a recipe or algorithm, something
>one can follow. Something EXPLICIT. But where is it?
It's common knowledge among researchers and is taught in every college
in the country. Where did you go to school??! What science classes
did you take? Among its major features are:
Use of a control. Use of a large enough set of cases or subjects
to produce statistically significant results. Specification of what
your level of significance is (e.g., .01, .05, etc). When possible
use of blind techniques so the person performing the experiment
does not know which is the control and which is the experimental
case (or subject). In the case of human test subjects, they
shouldn't
know either. A sufficiently precise description of the experimental
design so other researchers elsewhere can replicate the test (and
hopefully the results). Other posters may wish to add or expand
upon these items.
>Saying things like "science is verifiable, predictable, applicable,
>objective, repeatable, and has consensus" is of little help. This is
just
>a wish list of features you would like your method to have, features
that
>most people like, scientists or not, all else being equal.
>
>And saying things like "Do try to make your theories consistent, and
>try to check them out from various angles" is also not much help.
>This is just plain common sense, that I bet most any human any time
>in the last 3000 years would agree to.
This is ca-ca! I have friends and relatives who believe in channeling,
TM (I'm referring to the part about levitation, etc), various
religions,
and astrology who don't do ANY of the things you said. The scientific
method is definitely NOT common sense and in some ways violates many
common sense notions. For instance, the use of placebos and
double-blind
design (where neither the subject nor the researcher knows whether he
is getting the experimental drug or the placebo) violates many people's
ideas of common sense. The need for replicability also rubs people
the
wrong way because they don't like to think they could be wrong or
imperfect
observers. ("I KNOW what I saw!") Some day I'll recount here a
fascinating
UFO that I saw. It took me a week of hard work to find out what it
was; I
was convinced I had seen something truly remarkable and I had the
photographs
to prove it.
>Peter writes further:
>>Contrast this with religion (to choose an alternate method of
inquiry).
>>Religious inquiry makes *no* progress in the precision of its
descriptions
>>of the deity (-ies), the reliability of its predictions, or the
development
>>of consensus.
>
>Contrasting with "the religious method" does not help unless we know
>what that is. And these claims of performance seem suspect. How much
>progress has the scientific method made on descriptions of deities?
Perhaps this is because there are no such things.
>it is not at all obvious that we should credit the smallpox vaccine to
>the wearing of white coats, or whatever it is that the scientific
method
>is supposed to be,
I can't believe that someone working at "NASA Ames Research Center"
(.sig) is not familiar with the scientific method!! What do you DO
there?
> rather than just plain hard work on many
people's
>part. Were other methods tried at a comparable level of effort?
Well, in most parts of the world, religion. Smallpox used to be one
of the most deadly and feared diseases in the world and enormous
numbers of temples, sacrifices, offerings, and prayers were devoted
to trying to prevent it. Similar massive efforts may be seen in
looking at Europe of the middle ages trying to cope with the bubonic
plague.
---Peter
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Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 990 SKEP Subboard
From: PERRY THE CYNIC Sent: 03-21-90 01:48
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:43
Re: (R)MR. KIYOTA AND SPOON B
From: jsp@uts.amdahl.com (Perry The Cynic)
Date: 19 Mar 90 21:36:54 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <3270@pur-phy> sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP
(Bruce S. Woodcock) writes:
> In article <1533@key.COM> jsp@penguin.key.COM (James Preston) writes:
> >
> >No, no, no; YOU show ME some proof of "objects flying around" his
room.
> >The word of "parapsychologists" who have seen it isn't worth the
paper
> >it's written on.
>
> Mr. Preston, it seems you will not believe in parapsychological
phenomena
> unless you see the proof yourself. I assume that you are a fair man,
and as
> such apply your standards equally to all scientific enquiries.
Therefore,
> unless have done some heavy physics work, you probably don`t believe
in:
>
> Most sub-atomic particles
> Particles that can exhibit wave properties, and vice-versa
> The fact that the pinpoints of light in the night sky are really
stars
> Relativity
> [ etc., etc., etc., ]
>
Well, others have already done an admirable job of pointing out to you
the
rather obvious difference between a "proof" which consists of a
parapsychologist saying, "I saw things flying around the room", and a
rigorous scientific proof, done under tightly controlled conditions, and
repeated by many, many reputable scientists, so I won't belabor that
point.
I would, however, like to point out that I am a scrupulously fair man
when
it comes to "scientific enquiries". I can easily rise to your childish
little challenge. I was a university physics major myself once upon a
time.
I had many opportunities to verify with my own senses many of the
phenomena
you cite. I have seen, with my own eyes, effects of sub-atomic
particles;
I have seen the "particles" called electrons produce wave-like
interference
patterns, and the "waves" of electro-magnetic radiation behave in a
discrete
particle-like manner.
> Why do you not believe these things? Because they have not been
proven to you.
> What constitutes proof for you? Obviously not pictures, for they can
be faked.
I have a fair and consistent standard of proof. The examples you gave
from
physics easily and consistently meet that standard.
"parapsychological"
phenomena have yet to accomplish that. If they do, I will have no
trouble
believing.
> After all, the words of "physicists" and "scientists" who have seen
it isn`t
> worth the paper it`s printed on.
No, the words of scientists are worth much more than that. Why?
Because
they perform tests under controlled conditions; tests which are
repeatable;
tests which have been repeated many times. Because scientists seek to
explain
what they observe, and to form hypotheses which can successfully
explain what
will happen under other circumstances. Someone who says he saw things
flying
around a room--once--doesn't really fit in the same category. But if
you
continue as a physics major, I'm sure you'll come to appreciate the
difference
some day, just stick with it.
> The Point: Evidence is evidence regardless of what is being claimed.
Of course, so long as the evidence meets the criteria for what is
considered
hard evidence. The mere word of someone saying, "I saw it" hardly
qualifies.
A scientific research project, with published, verified data to back it
up
is an entirely different matter.
--James Preston
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 991 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 03-21-90 01:49
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:43
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 19 Mar 90 22:12:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <494b59ae.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson) posts...
>> I don't know about ghosts, but out-of-body experiences are pretty
>> easy to test for. You simply have the subject describe some object
>> that they would have no way of seeing from "within" their body
>> asleep on the bed.
>
>You take me too literally. When I say "out of body experience", I am
>refering to the physiological and psychological aspects. By this I
>mean that most OBE's are accompanied by a state of physical paralysis
>as well as a number of other symptoms.
So are dreams. Motor functions are inhibited in dreams (perhaps
so people don't thrash about or hurt themselves if they happen to
be dreaming about doing some physically active activity).
> My friend Paul began having these
>symptoms at age 12 (before even knowing what an OBE was) and thought
>that he had some sort of nervous disorder or something.
But how do you know he doesn't?
>Another friend of mine, Tom, had an OBE where his "astral body" sat up
>in bed and looked in the mirror. However, instead of seeing himself
>in the mirror, he saw one of the greys.
> [ ... ]
>Yet another friend, Steve, woke up in the middle of the night to find
>the outer room of his dorm pitch black save for what looked like
>stars. At the foot of his bed sat a shadowy figure who was wearing
>some type of luminous lace.
. [ ... ]
>Again, all these cases may just be some advanced form of hypnogogia.
>However, if so, it ain't like anything I've ever experienced. And no,
Given that we KNOW that the human nervous system, which is one of
the most complex naturally ocurring phenomena known, malfunctions
and misbehaves in various poorly understood ways then isn't it more
parsimonius to account for these events in this manner than in some
mystical way? That is, if the phenomenon can be accounted for by
something we *know* exists (and you haven't presented any reason why
these could not) then isn't it simpler to account for it on that
basis
then to try to make up something new?
Say I'm watching the sky one evening and I see a light moving in
a smooth eastward path and then suddenly disappear near zenith.
The light was steady up to that point and there was no sound.
It COULD be an alien spaceship and I can't prove it isn't. But
it is just as easy to say that it was a satellite which disappeared
into the Earth's shadow and I don't have to invoke any unknown
phenomenon to do so. Now if it did something inconsistent with
that model, like suddenly reversing course, I might have to rethink
things.
>It would seem like we could dismiss this if it were only limited to a
>few cases. But there's so damn many of them! Either humans are the
>most gullible species on the planet, or something seriously weird is
>going on. Either way, I think it's fascinating.
Fascinating, no doubt, but that doesn't mean there's anything going on
that's inconsistent with current science. NDE's aften report a
"tunnel
with a light at the end". This sort of tunnel-vision is not
consistent
with the way the brain responds to anoxia and is often experienced by
fighter pilots in high-G manuevers. We all have similar brains so
it's
not surprising that they should respond similarly to the same
deficits.
I've experienced things in my life which were positively weird and
I love the eerie, spooky feeling it gives me when that happens.
Science's explanations are positively prosaic by comparison and
often not nearly as much fun. Moreover I can understand the appeal
of anything that suggests that there's *more* to our existence than
a collection of organic chemistry which disintegrates after 70 years
or so, taking our consciousness with it. But I've never seen any
good reason to think that there is more to it. I'd love it if
somebody could show me where I'm wrong.
---Peter
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Msg #: 992 SKEP Subboard
From: SULLIVAN Sent: 03-21-90 01:49
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:45
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
Date: 19 Mar 90 14:41:40 GMT
Message-ID: <1406@nih-csl.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article , eiverson@nmsu.edu
(Eric Iverson) writes:
> In article <1400@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov
(Sullivan) writes:
>
> > But we can. Many examples exist of people who thought they
> > saw something, something they misinterpreted as something
> > else (like a UFO), but cling to their interpretation. This
> > has been seen to happen. People can fool themselves and this
> > can happen to anyone so it doesn't make them crazies, just
> > human. One question to answer would be why people are so
> > ready to accept flying saucers and ghosts and ESP at the
> > slightest meantion of their possible existance?
>
> I don't necessarily jump to ESP as my first explanation. However,
sometimes
> other explanations just seem hopelessly lame. An example: Back in '86
> I started noticing that every time I glanced at my watch it was within
> +/- 1 second of changing minutes. To further confuse things, it
> seemed that it would only do this when I stared at my watch
> inadvertantly and not when I was trying to make it happen. Even given
> this constraint, I was able to get it to happen 7 out of 10 times over
> the course of an evening. I believe the odds of this happening are
> rather high. I might also add that this happened in March, eventually
> faded out, then started happening again in September. The following
> year I had lesser success during the same time periods and now no
> longer have any success at all. Now of course the obvious explanation
> is that is was "just coincidence" but it seems like the raw data is
> a bit too correlated for that. I especially think it's interesting
> that March and September both have equinoxes, which may or may not
> have had a bearing on this. Just Coincidence? No.
> ESP? Probably not. But definitely not my imagination either.
Not your imagination, but maybe you are misinterpreting the
data.
By that I mean that when you look at your watch inadvertently
you may have been actually unconsciously have been viewing
the watch, but, like most things we see, we ignore those things
that do not move. Once the minute changed, you saw it.
Now, I'm not saying that this is the only possibility, but you
should consider rational explanations before calling upon
the supernatural for an explanation. If I had to come up with
a rational explanation, assuming no bias as mentioned above, I'd
say that taking all your observations together, they avarage out
to chance and the 7 out of 10 event was the result of a small
experimental number (i.e. Getting 7 out of 10 heads when tossing
a coin is not unusual but getting 700 out of 1000 is).
> I also have a friend who sees ghosts while in a hypnogogic state (i.e.
> just waking up) Not only does she invariably see the same individual
ghosts in
> the same physical locations (an indication that she's not just
> imagining things) she's also had independent verification of sorts.
> While staying at a friend's apartment, they put her on a cot in the
> living room rather than have her sleep on the couch. No mention was
> made why they did this. That night she awoke to see the spectre of a
> man angrily glowering at her on the couch. When she told her hosts
> the next morning, they said that they put people on a cot because when
> people had slept on the couch they had reported dreaming that a man
> was sitting on them and that they couldn't get up. Just coincidence?
> I don't think so. Scientifically admissible? Hardly. But at the
> same time I don't think that she's lying or misperceiving things. In
> fact, as a young child it was thought that she was going to die soon
> as she had a tendency to see and talk to Jesus and the Virgin Mary.
> This I believe is indication of a person who can see things that we
> can't, whether we want to believe in those things or not.
Well, I must be skeptical here. You are right that it is not
scientifically admissable. Your friends set up an experiment
without proper controls. I find it hard to believe that in the
setting up of the experiment, no information was passed to the
girl who then dreamed about the man. BTW, why does such a
spectre have to be a ghost? Couldn't it be something else?
Like extraterresterials or beings living in a parallel
dimension?
Your labeling of these events as visits from ghosts shows that
you believe ghosts to exist and when something
occurs that fits your idea of a ghost, it must be a ghost. This
is bad science and shows a bias. Just like those who believe
flying saucers exist and when an unusual light appears in the
sky, it must be an alien spacecraft. Believe what you will
but try to be much more skeptical of random events and more
importantly, know you own biases.
> What I'm trying to say is that sometimes we are confronted with things
> that may not stand up to lab testing due to their volatility and
> sporadic nature. A person's mental state may be a lot more important
> than we realize, and a cold clinical lab hardly seems to be the place
> to induce this state. Additionally, pressure to perform (as in my
> case) may eliminate success altogether. But that doesn't mean that
> this stuff doesn't happen to a lot of people with no reason to lie
> about it. Solutions? Don't ask me. I just find these reports
interesting.
I don't think that many of these people, you friend included,
are
lying of playing a hoax. The mind can process information
in many ways as best it can. It does not like to leave an event
uninterpreted. When a strange event occurs, it trys to resolve
it as best it can. Your bias will make it that much easier for
you mind to come up with a supernatural explanation rather that
searching deeper for the real cause. Remember the horse that
could do mathematics? Seems there was this guy with a horse
that,
when given a math problem, would give the correct answer by
tapping
the number with his hoof. This was repeated in front of people.
The owner was convinced that the horse could do math. It
wasn't until
an experiment was set up and the horse could no longer take a
clue
from the owner's face as to when to stop tapping that the real
cause of this event was determined. No one blames the owner for
playing a hoax. He was just fooled as many of us are by an, at
first, unexplanable event.
Events that are sporadic or volatile in nature do stand up to
lab testing. Once the event is determined to be this way, the
experiment is set up to observe it. Such experiments usually
use large numbers or long observation times to observe the
event.
Jim Sullivan
sullivan@alw.nih.gov
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Msg #: 993 SKEP Subboard
From: DAVE DECOT Sent: 03-21-90 01:50
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:45
Re: (R)OUT OF BODY EXPERIMENT
From: decot@hpisod2.HP.COM (Dave Decot)
Date: 19 Mar 90 22:20:54 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Message-ID: <23180015@hpisod2.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Adherents to Scientology believe that some of their members (everyone,
potentially) are able to "exteriorize" their spirits/personalities from
their bodies without harming the bodies or stopping their hearts.
In fact, in "What is Scientology?" L. Ron Hubbard claims that this
experience is actually nothing extraordinary for persons undergoing
Scientology processing.
Perhaps one of those persons will volunteer for such an experiment.
Dave
Scientology is a trademark owned by the Religious Technology Center and
is used with its permission.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 994 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 03-21-90 01:50
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:45
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 20 Mar 90 07:44:26 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1406@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov
(Sullivan) writes:
In article , eiverson@nmsu.edu
(Eric Iverson) writes:
> I started noticing that every time I glanced at my watch it was
within
> +/- 1 second of changing minutes.
> Just Coincidence? No.
> ESP? Probably not. But definitely not my imagination either.
Not your imagination, but maybe you are misinterpreting the
data.
By that I mean that when you look at your watch inadvertently
you may have been actually unconsciously have been viewing
the watch, but, like most things we see, we ignore those
things
that do not move. Once the minute changed, you saw it.
This is a completely inadequate explanation. For one thing, the watch
in question is a digital one, which means that it doesn't "move" at
all. Admittedly, when the minute changes there is a slight bit more
activity on the watch face. However, I hardly feel this additional
activity would be sufficient to trigger any sort of reaction. Even if
it were sufficient, I would have to raise my arm virtually
instantaneously in order to witness the change of minutes which
triggered the reaction in the first place. This does not even take
into account that my watch is normally out of my field of vision with
the watch face pointing away from my eyes. Even if it were in my
field of vision, it would most likely have to fall within a 5% arc in
my vision field in order to even be legible. Outside of this arc,
motion
can be perceived, but only gross motions; certainly not the smaller
changes of a digital watch at arm's length. In short, your solution
won't work. I'm willing to posit some form of internal time sense
analogous to circadian rhythms to account for the data. However, I
don't feel that mechanical cause and effect solutions work well.
Especially since they don't account for the fact that the phenomena
only happened during specific times of the year and doesn't happen
anymore.
Now, I'm not saying that this is the only possibility, but
you
should consider rational explanations before calling upon
the supernatural for an explanation. If I had to come up
with
a rational explanation, assuming no bias as mentioned above,
I'd
say that taking all your observations together, they avarage
out
to chance and the 7 out of 10 event was the result of a small
experimental number (i.e. Getting 7 out of 10 heads when
tossing
a coin is not unusual but getting 700 out of 1000 is).
To equate the odds of seeing a watch change minutes to coming up
heads is fallacious. The odds of coming up heads are 1/2. The odds
of seeing a watch within +/- 1 sec. of :00 are 1/20. Over the course
of 10 trials this difference becomes even more pronounced. Yes, the
experimental number is low, but I hardly feel that this means it's
solely the result of chance.
> I also have a friend who sees ghosts while in a hypnogogic state
(i.e.
> just waking up) Not only does she invariably see the same
individual
ghosts in
> the same physical locations (an indication that she's not just
> imagining things) she's also had independent verification of sorts.
Well, I must be skeptical here. You are right that it is not
scientifically admissable. Your friends set up an experiment
without proper controls. I find it hard to believe that in
the
setting up of the experiment, no information was passed to
the
girl who then dreamed about the man. BTW, why does such a
spectre have to be a ghost? Couldn't it be something else?
Like extraterresterials or beings living in a parallel
dimension?
Your labeling of these events as visits from ghosts shows
that
you believe ghosts to exist and when something
occurs that fits your idea of a ghost, it must be a ghost.
Oh please! Fine, it's not a ghost. It's a non-corporeal ethereal
visual manifestation in the form of a human male. Satisfied? I don't
see how information being passed would cause her to see the same
ghosts (substitute your own term here) in the same physical locations
and
none in others. It's especially hard for people to pass her
information, considering that often she's the only one who sees
what's there. If this were some form of suggestion, a
recurrent dream or a hallucination, you would expect the same "ghosts"
to follow her from apartment to apartment. This does not happen.
There is a distinct geographical component to the experience. At the
same time, we have nothing but her word on which to base the validity
of the experience. Historical records? Too easy for her to get
access. Virtually any test I can think of would be susceptible to
trickery. Oh well, it must all just be trickery then...my mistake.
This is bad science and shows a bias. Just like those who
believe
flying saucers exist and when an unusual light appears in
the
sky, it must be an alien spacecraft. Believe what you will
but try to be much more skeptical of random events and more
importantly, know you own biases.
I believe I've taken elaborate pains throughout my postings not to
jump to conclusions about the causes of anomalous phenomena. I am
open to maximally simple explanations that don't rely on presuppositions
that I find implausible or contrived. All I'm trying to do is to
present (albeit somewhat anecdotal) data that I have personally
encountered. To accuse me of bias over the use of a linguistic
shorthand does me a disservice. I don't feel I have a deep seated
need to believe in the paranormal. At the same time I don't have a
need to reject it either (unlike some people I know.) Instead, I am
constantly trying to label and work around my biases, but not at the
expense of ignoring what I see around me. If I see a bit more as a
result, so much the better.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN,
DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a
cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 995 SKEP Subboard
From: NICHAEL CRAMER Sent: 03-21-90 12:48
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:46
Re: SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH?
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Date: 21 Mar 90 05:57:55 GMT
Message-ID: <53855@bbn.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Is there any interest here in (seriously) discussing Urban Myths?
Some of the questions/topics might be:
o Are there specific facts that disprove (or support!) a given
legend?
o Are there interesting/significant variations on a given
legend? What do they tell us about the story?
o *Why* are there Urban Legends? What function do they serve?
o Posting (Warning? ;) about new legends making the rounds.
As a practical matter, such a forum might actually serve a concrete
useful purpose. The same features that make the .net a (potentially)
good mechanism for the desemination of fact and useful information
have also meant that it is a powerful means for propagating
misinformation: those who read Misc.Kids know that not six months go
by without someone posting the "Blue Star Acid" story; many accounts
of the Little Timmy/Postcard legend specifically cite Internet's role
in helping spread the story worldwide; bboards like rec.humor are
particularly prone to this sort of thing (e.g. a month or so back a
lot of bandwidth was spent on endless variations of the "Johnny and
the Golfer's Wife" myth).
A place for such a discussion could (again, potentially) serve as a
good counterweight.
So a few questions:
1] Is this .net an appropriate place for such a discussion?
2] Is there a more appropriate .net/place elsewhere?
3] If "no" to both the above, might it be more appropriate/is there
enough interest to start up something like Sci.Skeptic.Urban.Myth?
4] Finally, is there any real hope that if we do this that it
won't deteriorate into rec.humor.junior with endless rounds of
"Well, the way *I* heard it...."? ;-)/2
(More seriously, this danger might be a good argument for spinning
off a separate net.)
Comments?
NICHAEL
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 996 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 03-21-90 18:32
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:46
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 21 Mar 90 01:37:30 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <46372@lanl.gov> rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick) writes:
> As for your "Couch Ghost", it seems that you have an excellant
> oppurtunity to conduct a real "ghost hunt" experiment. I assume
> the couch is still there, the people are still there. Go
> there. Offer to sleep on the couch. Conduct a real experiment.
> I am sure that many here would be willing to suggest much in
> order to help make your experiment tight and scientifically
> acceptable. If you/they are not willing to try, then the
> weight of the anecdote drops off to almost absolute zero.
I don't see how sleeping on the couch would be a real experiment
considering that I would be expecting a male ghost to sit on me. As a
result of this a priori expectation I could easily dream the whole
thing. This is analogous to young kids going to a haunted house
expecting to be scared. If they're already expecting to see shadowy
figures, they often do. The point with my friend is that she didn't
know in advance that something had been seen, and wasn't looking for
anything
out of the ordinary. Besides, I can't do the experiment, the couple
in question have moved to Norway.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN,
DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a
cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 997 SKEP Subboard
From: DAVID GEISER Sent: 03-21-90 18:32
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:46
Re: (R)HOW MANY PEOPLE? 100B
From: dag@hp-lsd.COS.HP.COM (David Geiser)
Date: 19 Mar 90 20:47:30 GMT
Organization: HP Logic Systems Division - ColoSpgs, CO
Message-ID: <17040001@hp-lsd.COS.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Found in rec.humor.funny,
Re: one liners
I saw this in hanging in our system manager's office:
/EARTH is 98% full. Please delete anybody you can.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 998 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 03-21-90 18:32
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:46
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 20 Mar 90 21:44:08 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46372@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article eiverson@nmsu.edu
(Eric Iverson) writes:
>In article <1406@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov
(Sullivan) writes:
>
> In article ,
eiverson@nmsu.edu
> (Eric Iverson) writes:
> > I started noticing that every time I glanced at my watch it was
within
> > +/- 1 second of changing minutes.
> > Just Coincidence? No.
> > ESP? Probably not. But definitely not my imagination either.
>
> Not your imagination, but maybe you are misinterpreting the
data.
> By that I mean that when you look at your watch inadvertently
> you may have been actually unconsciously have been viewing...
>This is a completely inadequate explanation. For one thing, the watch
>in question is a digital one, which means that it doesn't "move" at
>all.
Pete and Peggy Seeger used to play banjo, and they used to practice
their timing by starting to play a song together, and then to walk
away from each other, out of eyesight and hearing, in a great circle,
until they met up again, hopefully still in time. They were suprisingly
successful. There are also stories of those people who can make
themselves
wake up at appointed times. So it would seem that the simplest
explanation
is that the body has an internal clock that can be calibrated with the
artificial clock of the externel world. Why yours quit working?
I might guess overcompensation. I do it often. I can often function
best when my mind is clear and empty, when I'm not trying. The harder
I try, the worse I get. My best golf shots/arrow shots/ax throws/etc
have been when I tried least. It was very much like "Feel the Force,
Luke". But the Force is to let your body/mind synergism do what it
knows best without excessive thinkery/tinkering. Anyway, it seems
to me to be a reasonably simply, though in reality, currently
unexplainable, reason.
As for your "Couch Ghost", it seems that you have an excellant
oppurtunity to conduct a real "ghost hunt" experiment. I assume
the couch is still there, the people are still there. Go
there. Offer to sleep on the couch. Conduct a real experiment.
I am sure that many here would be willing to suggest much in
order to help make your experiment tight and scientifically
acceptable. If you/they are not willing to try, then the
weight of the anecdote drops off to almost absolute zero.
"It is not enough to have the courage of your convictions,
but you must have the strength to challenge them"
F.N.
doctor boB
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Msg #: 999 SKEP Subboard
From: NICHAEL CRAMER Sent: 03-21-90 18:33
To: ALL Rcvd: 03-27-90 21:47
Re: (R)HOW MANY PEOPLE? 100B
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Date: 21 Mar 90 04:56:42 GMT
Message-ID: <53853@bbn.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
pmk@promethe.UUCP (0000-Admin(0000)) writes:
>Nichael Cramer writes:
>>... The real reasons for explosive population
>>growth have been technological (e.g. the development of agriculture).
>>There have *always* been enough people around --and mates easy enough
to
>>find-- to fuel growth.
>>Granted, once a carrying capacity has been reached, a population may
stay
>>at a fixed value for a long time, but if it does so for a *long* time
(and
>>we're talking tens of thousands of years) it will still add up.
>What is critical is the total bio mass!...
Well, uh, yes in a global sense total life on a planet is going to be
limited by the amount of material available, but the total mass of
humans
(which is what this discussion is about) is nowhere near this limit.
(As a
simple example, there are 10^9 humans at ~10^5 gm. There are about
10^15
insects at, let us say, an average of 1gm. So the mass of insects is at
least an order of magnitude larger than that of humans. The total mass
represented by both is insignificant to that of plant life.)
>... It is DECREASING because carbon
>dioxide has been sucked out of the atmosphere by trillions of tiny
ocean
>born creatures, forming carbonates, that have been building up chalk
beds.
Well, yes. But (ignoring that "trillions" is low by *several* orders of
magnitude) this has been going on for as almost long as there has been
life
on earth --this, of course, being where limestone comes from. But the
amount by which this has has changed during the short period of time
during
which there have been humans on the planet is insignificant.
>The process has been recently spurred on by river apes whose
agricultural
>efforts add nutrients to the seas...
1] This isn't really a very large effect and 2] I doubt it has any
specific
effect on the relevant lifeforms (e.g. coral).
>...Consequently, plants are no longer able
>to grow at rates any where near their optimal rates and can not hold
their
>own against climate or man as before.
We could argue about the extent to which plants are able to "hold their
own", but to suggest they are being limited by carbon-binding is
nonsense.
>... What is needed is huge additions
>of pure carbon dioxide into the atmosphere to help increase cloud
cover and
>provide the tera tons of carbon necessary if plant life is to cover the
>world's substantial desert areas. A cool world is covered in flora.
"Huge additions of pure carbon dioxide"!!!!! "COOL"!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you say "greenhouse"???
N
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Msg #: 1000 SKEP Subboard
From: NICHAEL CRAMER Sent: 03-21-90 18:33
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:40
Re: SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH?
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Date: 21 Mar 90 05:57:55 GMT
Message-ID: <53855@bbn.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Is there any interest here in (seriously) discussing Urban Myths?
Some of the questions/topics might be:
o Are there specific facts that disprove (or support!) a given
legend?
o Are there interesting/significant variations on a given
legend? What do they tell us about the story?
o *Why* are there Urban Legends? What function do they serve?
o Posting (Warning? ;) about new legends making the rounds.
As a practical matter, such a forum might actually serve a concrete
useful purpose. The same features that make the .net a (potentially)
good mechanism for the desemination of fact and useful information
have also meant that it is a powerful means for propagating
misinformation: those who read Misc.Kids know that not six months go
by without someone posting the "Blue Star Acid" story; many accounts
of the Little Timmy/Postcard legend specifically cite Internet's role
in helping spread the story worldwide; bboards like rec.humor are
particularly prone to this sort of thing (e.g. a month or so back a
lot of bandwidth was spent on endless variations of the "Johnny and
the Golfer's Wife" myth).
A place for such a discussion could (again, potentially) serve as a
good counterweight.
So a few questions:
1] Is this .net an appropriate place for such a discussion?
2] Is there a more appropriate .net/place elsewhere?
3] If "no" to both the above, might it be more appropriate/is there
enough interest to start up something like Sci.Skeptic.Urban.Myth?
4] Finally, is there any real hope that if we do this that it
won't deteriorate into rec.humor.junior with endless rounds of
"Well, the way *I* heard it...."? ;-)/2
(More seriously, this danger might be a good argument for spinning
off a separate net.)
Comments?
NICHAEL
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Msg #: 1001 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 03-21-90 18:34
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:40
Re: (R)HUNDREDTH MONKEY PHENO
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 21 Mar 90 19:35:09 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10888@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2524@ultb.isc.rit.edu> map9107@ultb.isc.rit.edu (M.A.
Piekarz)
writes:
> I hate to be annoying, but could someone e-mail me or re-post
>the Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon description. I missed the original
>posting, and it drives me crazy every time someone refers to it and
>I am totally clueless as to what it refers to.
If a few dozen more people had referred to it, you wouldn't have to be
told.
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
"Mere opinion without supporting argument is no more than the American
Bandstand school of literary evaluation." -- Tom Maddox
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Msg #: 1002 SKEP Subboard
From: TAD COOK Sent: 03-21-90 18:35
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:40
Re: SCEPTICAL PERIODICALS
From: tad@ssc.UUCP (Tad Cook)
Date: 21 Mar 90 02:39:20 GMT
Organization: very little
Message-ID: <570@ssc.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Can anyone post some information on "skeptical" periodicals? I have
run into two, and wonder if they were the same publication. Last
fall I found a small magazine about the size of TV Guide, and I think
it was called The Sceptical Inquirer, but I am not sure. It had
many interesting articles, including one on "Bigfoot".
The other one I saw a couple of years ago, I think. It was larger size
(8.5 by 11?) and had a great article about Randi and his debunking of
Peter Popof (sp?), who was the faith healer that used lo-band VHF
to prompt him during his "miracles".
Anyone have addresses/subscription info on these?
Tad Cook
Seattle, WA
Packet: KT7H @ N7HFZ.WA.USA.NA
Phone: 206/527-4089
MCI Mail: 3288544
Telex: 6503288544 MCI UW
USENET:...uw-beaver!sumax!amc-gw!ssc!tad
or, tad@ssc.UUCP
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Msg #: 1003 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 03-21-90 18:35
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-05-90 11:40
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 21 Mar 90 14:08:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <4953b7df.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) posts...
>Is there any interest here in (seriously) discussing Urban Myths?
I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
how (and *if*) it propagated. After designing a suitable one we
could "seed" it in some select locations and then maintain a map
of where it travels and how it changes along the way. Perhaps
we could enlist the help of Brunvand's group to help us track it.
---Peter
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Msg #: 1004 SKEP Subboard
From: PAUL HAGER Sent: 03-22-90 01:04
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 11:58
Re: (R)THIS WHOLE FIELD CIRCL
From: hagerp@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Paul Hager)
Date: 21 Mar 90 20:45:12 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <39216@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
I have followed this thread with interest. I and some confederates are
intending to make some of these things somewhere in Hoosierland for a
documentary/satire we are making called "Mysteries of the Wabash". We
hope to interview some participants in a UFO Abductee's support group
also.
Keep watching the skies.
--
paul hager hagerp@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu
*** Combat global warming -- build nuclear power plants ***
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Msg #: 1005 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 03-22-90 01:05
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 11:58
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 21 Mar 90 23:54:52 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46486@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article you write:
>In article <46372@lanl.gov> rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick) writes:
>
>> As for your "Couch Ghost", it seems that you have an excellant
>> oppurtunity to conduct a real "ghost hunt" experiment. I assume
>> the couch is still there, the people are still there. Go
>
>I don't see how sleeping on the couch would be a real experiment
>considering that I would be expecting a male ghost to sit on me. As a
[stuf]
> .... Besides, I can't do the experiment, the couple
>in question have moved to Norway.
I tend to use too light a touch when composing these things and so
sometimes I might be taken too literally. What I meant was that there
existed in your story an element which made it ripe for study. I.e.
a repeating anomolous phenomena where non-collaborating individuals
seemed to agree as to the details. If so, then it would be a great
testing ground. I didn't mean that you personally should be the couch
sleeper, but that an unbiased uncoached observer could be brought
to this place to conduct a real experiment. Since they are in Norway,
the couch and house who knows where, the whole thing is a moot point,
save this: if you or anyone else you know ever stumbles across a
goldmine like this again, and the trail is still warm, or even better
hot, and it is repeatable, take it to the wall! Conduct a test
that will make everybody proud. If you get multiple independant
verifications with controlled testings, wow! If not, then you
will be praised for you're careful attention to detail.
Anyway, I wish someone would give me one of these puppies. Sounds
like
a chuckalicious time.
Doctor boB
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Msg #: 1006 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 03-22-90 01:05
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 11:58
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 22 Mar 90 00:01:20 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46488@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <53855@bbn.COM> ncramer@BBN.COM (Nichael Cramer) writes:
>
>Is there any interest here in (seriously) discussing Urban Myths?
>1] Is this .net an appropriate place for such a discussion?
>2] Is there a more appropriate .net/place elsewhere?
>3] If "no" to both the above, might it be more appropriate/is there
> enough interest to start up something like Sci.Skeptic.Urban.Myth?
>4] Finally, is there any real hope that if we do this that it
> won't deteriorate into rec.humor.junior with endless rounds of
> "Well, the way *I* heard it...."? ;-)/2
Nichael, I would say Yes; I think so; don't know; Sci.Folklore if
not here; and we can only hope.
Anyway, I think that much of what goes on in the world of Urban
Myth will resound in the world of Sci.Skeptic anyway, and it would
be a nice variation for the group. And you really write nice stuff!
Doctor boB - Dancing madly backwards
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Msg #: 1007 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 03-22-90 01:05
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 11:58
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 22 Mar 90 00:12:55 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46489@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <4953b7df.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
Nelson) writes:
>
> ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) posts...
>
>>Is there any interest here in (seriously) discussing Urban Myths?
>
> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
> how (and *if*) it propagated. After designing a suitable one we
> could "seed" it in some select locations and then maintain a map
> of where it travels and how it changes along the way. Perhaps
> we could enlist the help of Brunvand's group to help us track it.
Neat idea Peter, but I think you might find this to be a harder task
than it seems at first. What fuels an Urban Myth is much the same
as the mana that fuels advertising, fads, and all those other things
that spell Riches for the first to actualize the idea. What we're
talking about here are memes. A Meme is an idea that has a life of
its own. No one seems to be able to guess ahead of time which ones
will live and which will wither. They propagate and survive by
implanting themselves into the psyche's of human beings. They are
like symbiotic parasites and we are their host organisms. I would
say that your best bet would be to find an ancient urban myth that
has not seen light of day for a while (lying dormant), dust it
off, update it with details that make it traceable by you, and
let 'er rip. And while you're at it, make up a totally new myth
as well, for a control. I suggest you run your new myth by a
Certified Folklorist first to make sure you are not awakening
a dormant meme unknowingly. Let us know your progress. I'll
be glad to distribute both. Good luck.
doctor boB - a mythical character
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Msg #: 1008 SKEP Subboard
From: BOB DAINAUSKI Sent: 03-22-90 01:05
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 11:58
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu (Bob Dainauski)
Date: 20 Mar 90 16:35:19 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <90079.113519RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article , eiverson@nmsu.edu
(Eric
Iverson) says:
>
>I don't necessarily jump to ESP as my first explanation. However,
sometimes
>other explanations just seem hopelessly lame. An example: Back in '86
>I started noticing that every time I glanced at my watch it was within
>+/- 1 second of changing minutes. To further confuse things, it
>seemed that it would only do this when I stared at my watch
>inadvertantly and not when I was trying to make it happen. Even given
>this constraint, I was able to get it to happen 7 out of 10 times over
>the course of an evening. I believe the odds of this happening are
>rather high. I might also add that this happened in March, eventually
>faded out, then started happening again in September. The following
>year I had lesser success during the same time periods and now no
>longer have any success at all. Now of course the obvious explanation
>is that is was "just coincidence" but it seems like the raw data is
>a bit too correlated for that.
Wait a sec. Let me see if I have this straight........
In the past four years you've had all of _two_ isolated periods of
time where you experienced a reasonably common event about
7 out of 10 trials. Also, the possibility exists that you made
a mental note of only the "hits" since you didn't say anything
about recording data. Yes, you're right, this could not possibly
be a coincidence. Surely there are heretofore unexplained forces
at work in the universe which, for reasons known only to themselves,
compell you to look at you watch as it is about to change
minutes - once in a while. Semi :-)
Please forgive the sarcasm, but stop and take a look at what
you are suggesting. It's one thing to talk about predicting
disasters or the lotto numbers but you're talking about something
(to be honest) ludicrous. *Think*, think hard about this. Even if
ESP, PK, whatever existed what possible reason would there be for
causing you to look at your watch as it is about to change
minutes??????? I could not come up with a single reason. You, however,
offer:
> I especially think it's interesting
>that March and September both have equinoxes, which may or may not
>have had a bearing on this. Just Coincidence? No.
>
Why didn't I think of that? Maybe it happened in March and September
because my sister was born one month before March and my brother
was born one month after September?
What I'm getting at here is that you can't just throw out "equinoxes"
and make ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION, even in hypothesis. Why do you
think that's "especially interesting"? Because equinoxes are "neat"?
Tell us!
>What I'm trying to say is that sometimes we are confronted with things
>that may not stand up to lab testing due to their volatility and
>sporadic nature.
Sporadic nature? Hey, I think you're finally on to something.........
Any possible explainations for this? Coincidence? Nah, the raw data
is a bit to correlated for that.
And now, a quick flashback:
> I don't necessarily jump to ESP as my first explanation. However,
sometimes
> other explanations seem hopelessly lame.
Stop it, please, you're killing me.
Still irate,
Bob Dainauski
RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu
(717) 948-6426
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1009 SKEP Subboard
From: KEN SHIRRIFF Sent: 03-22-90 01:05
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 11:59
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff)
Date: 22 Mar 90 01:11:38 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <23323@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <4953b7df.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
Nelson) writes:
> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
> how (and *if*) it propagated.
A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
all over the United States.
Ken Shirriff shirriff@sprite.Berkeley.EDU
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1010 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 03-23-90 01:26
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 11:59
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 22 Mar 90 03:38:24 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <90079.113519RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu> RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu (Bob
Dainauski) writes:
> ... Yes, you're right, this could not possibly
> be a coincidence. Surely there are heretofore unexplained forces
> at work in the universe which, for reasons known only to themselves,
> compell you to look at you watch as it is about to change
> minutes - once in a while. Semi :-)
>
> Please forgive the sarcasm, but stop and take a look at what
> you are suggesting. It's one thing to talk about predicting
> disasters or the lotto numbers but you're talking about something
> (to be honest) ludicrous. *Think*, think hard about this. Even if
> ESP, PK, whatever existed what possible reason would there be for
> causing you to look at your watch as it is about to change
> minutes??????? I could not come up with a single reason. You,
however,
> offer:
>
> > I especially think it's interesting
> >that March and September both have equinoxes, which may or may not
> >have had a bearing on this. Just Coincidence? No.
> >
> Why didn't I think of that? Maybe it happened in March and September
> because my sister was born one month before March and my brother
> was born one month after September?
>
> What I'm getting at here is that you can't just throw out "equinoxes"
> and make ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION, even in hypothesis. Why do you
> think that's "especially interesting"? Because equinoxes are "neat"?
> Tell us!
I do not believe that I have ever said anything about "heretofore
unexplained forces at work in the universe." I also don't think I've
ever made any claims about having ESP or PK abilities. Instead I
think my experience was a manifestation of human being's inate time
sense. There does seem to be precedent for this. As other people
have pointed out, it is possible to "will" yourself to wake up at a
certain time with training. This is probably not due to ESP, but more
likely due to an unconcious perception of the body's circadian
rhythms, or to ambient light levels within the room. Since the body's
cycles are somewhat linked to lunar cycles (i.e. menstral cycles,
increased crime rates during a full moon, etc.) I do not see why the
earth's cycles might not have some sort of effect as well. As a result
I did not "throw out" equinoxes just because they were "neat." It is
quite possible given our knowledge of lunar effects that the earth's
position in its orbit may have a bearing on the phenomena.
There is a whole new discipline called Chronobiology which is trying
to study the effects of time of day and time of season on the
functions of the body. While 1 minute intervals may seem a bit small
and artificial to have much of an effect, I still don't see why
there couldn't be some biological/unconcious way to perceive them over
a series of trials. I'd point out that this all started after I had
become intensely emotionally involved with someone, but I'm sure you'd
all tell me that my endocrine levels only made me less objective.
I might also add that your posting lived up to the level of
scholarship and objectivity that I have come to expect from PSU.....
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN,
DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a
cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
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Msg #: 1011 SKEP Subboard
From: BOB DAINAUSKI Sent: 03-23-90 01:27
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 11:59
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu (Bob Dainauski)
Date: 22 Mar 90 02:01:39 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <90080.210139RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <23323@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu
(Ken
Shirriff) says:
>
>In article <4953b7df.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
>Nelson)
>writes:
>> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
>> how (and *if*) it propagated.
>
>A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
>all over the United States.
>
Well ??? Don't just tease us like that! What was the
urban myth started by your friend?
Bob
Bob Dainauski
RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu
(717) 948-6426
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Msg #: 1012 SKEP Subboard
From: NICHAEL CRAMER Sent: 03-23-90 01:28
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:00
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Date: 22 Mar 90 02:51:57 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
Message-ID: <53921@bbn.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <23323@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu
(Ken Shirriff) writes:
>In article <4953b7df.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM
(Peter Nelson) writes:
>> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
>> how (and *if*) it propagated.
>
>A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
>all over the United States.
Alright, I'll ask the obvious... Which one?
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Msg #: 1013 SKEP Subboard
From: RODNEY KENT MADSEN Sent: 03-23-90 01:28
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:00
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: madsen@ics.uci.edu (Rodney Kent Madsen)
Date: 22 Mar 90 09:54:25 GMT
Message-ID: <2608A0D1.7948@paris.ics.uci.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
>A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
>all over the United States.
Aha! Is this the start of an urban myth about "a guy who started an
urban
myth that spread throughout the country," or am I recursing too deeply?
>Ken Shirriff shirriff@sprite.Berkeley.EDU
--
R. Kent Madsen
Department of Information and Computer Science, UC Irvine
madsen@ics.uci.edu (ARPA)
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1014 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC PEPKE Sent: 03-23-90 01:29
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:00
Re: (R)THIS WHOLE FIELD CIRCL
From: pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Date: 22 Mar 90 14:27:32 GMT
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
Message-ID: <590@fsu.scri.fsu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1955@naucse.UUCP> sbw@naucse.UUCP (Steve Wampler) writes:
> Wait a minute. I'm pretty certain (having done it when younger) that
> it isn't all *that* hard to walk through a wheat field without leaving
> a trail - you just have to be careful.
In Britain there are public footpaths which go over miles and miles of
countryside. They go through private property, but the paths are so
old
that they are protected by law. In these benighted days, the laws
aren't
really enforced very well (how could one enforce them anyway?) and the
owners of the land sometimes don't have much respect for the tradition.
So some farmers plant crops where the paths are.
There are active societies whose members walk those paths regularly.
Even
so, it is sometimes impossible to see where the paths are. There was
one
I saw that went through a field of wheat. It was so bad that I
couldn't
tell where the path was and thought I made a wrong turn somewhere.
Instead, I went straight forward, looking for footprints on the ground.
I
could see none. However, when I emerged from the field, the path
continued from the exact point I left the field.
So, it's pretty easy to walk though some British wheat fields without
leaving obvious marks. I wasn't even trying to be careful, but I could
see no disturbance looking back.
Eric Pepke INTERNET:
pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu
Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke@fsu
Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many
lawyers.
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Msg #: 1015 SKEP Subboard
From: BILL JEFFERYS Sent: 03-23-90 01:29
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:00
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: bill@ut-emx.UUCP (Bill Jefferys)
Date: 22 Mar 90 14:54:25 GMT
Organization: UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <26648@ut-emx.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <90080.210139RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu> RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu (Bob
Dainauski) writes:
#
#In article <23323@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu
(Ken
#Shirriff) says:
#>
#>In article <4953b7df.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM
(Peter
#>Nelson)
#>writes:
#>> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
#>> how (and *if*) it propagated.
#>
#>A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
#>all over the United States.
#>
# Well ??? Don't just tease us like that! What was the
#urban myth started by your friend?
He didn't say 'a friend'. He said 'a friend of a friend'.
'Nuff said :-)
Bill Jefferys
--
If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your kill file
--Robert Firth
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Msg #: 1016 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 03-23-90 01:29
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:00
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 22 Mar 90 16:33:23 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46537@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <23323@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu
(Ken Shirriff) writes:
>In article <4953b7df.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM
(Peter Nelson) writes:
>> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
>> how (and *if*) it propagated.
>
>A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
>all over the United States.
>
>Ken Shirriff shirriff@sprite.Berkeley.EDU
You scared me for a moment! I thot you might be serious, but the FEOF
is a dead giveaway now, isn't it. Actually, we might try a contest to
see if anybody can start a UM from scratch. But do you have any idea
of the fierce battle for UM niches? There are hundreds, nay thousands,
of potential UM's out there competing for their very existence. Some
UM's are so established that I doubt that even Stalin or Mao could
have eradicated them, even if they put the whole of their power into the
task.
Question: how can you tell a UM from a true yet obscure story?
E.g. the following: (this is slightly salacious, so if you are easily
offended, please stop now)
In a certain Government installation they have these huge vaults that
have very thick doors, but the doors are easily opened and closed.
Inside the vault they have a flashing red light whenever the vault
is unlocked, even if the door is closed.
Now a certain supervisor was known for sexual extortion, and although
he had been accused several times, nothing had been done about it
because of his influence in the organization. So he used to coerce
young ladies into providing sexual favors in order to keep their
jobs, and a favorite place to take them was one of these vaults.
Well, he had one young lady in there, and as I understand it, he
was standing and she was kneeling (trying to be delicate with an
indelicate situation). And that was when, with the help of the
red light, he suddenly found out that she was epileptic. His
screams were heard outside the vault with the door closed! I
have it on good authority that she did not unclench until they
had them in the ambulance and had given her a muscle relaxant.
He was mangled but to the best of my knowledge, did not lose
the item, although its future usefulness was in doubt.
Anyway, they were both fired, but she filed suit and won.
So, skeptical friends: Is it a UM or is it true?
Cast your votes now.
doc boB - "Anyone who tells a bigger story than this will
have to tell a lie"
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Msg #: 1017 SKEP Subboard
From: BOB DAINAUSKI Sent: 03-24-90 03:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:01
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu (Bob Dainauski)
Date: 22 Mar 90 21:26:03 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <90081.162603RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2608A0D1.7948@paris.ics.uci.edu>, madsen@ics.uci.edu
(Rodney Kent
Madsen) says:
>
>shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
>
>>A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
>>all over the United States.
>
>Aha! Is this the start of an urban myth about "a guy who started an
urban
>myth that spread throughout the country," or am I recursing too deeply?
>
Ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh. Now I get it. Sorry, I read the original
too quickly and without my sarcasm detector. Nicely done Ken.
Bob
Bob Dainauski
RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu
(717) 948-6426
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Msg #: 1018 SKEP Subboard
From: LOREN PETRICH Sent: 03-24-90 03:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:01
Re: (R)HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIG
From: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich)
Date: 23 Mar 90 02:34:58 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Message-ID: <53402@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
This posting is CUTE. Our government knows all about these
extraterrestrial visitors but is covering it all up. Isn't that
simple?
But considering the fate of numerous other potentially
embarrassing secrets, I suspect that there is no cover-up at all. Just
consider expose's on the Vietnam War, Watergate, the CIA, the
Iran-Contra scandal, etc. etc. If there was a UFO cover-up, it would
have been exposed in full glory long ago, like all these other
scandals.
^
Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster \ ^ /
loren@sunlight.llnl.gov \ ^ /
One may need to route through any of: \^/
<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>
lll-lcc.llnl.gov /v\
lll-crg.llnl.gov / v \
star.stanford.edu / v \
v
"Eliminate the ninnies and the twits!" -- Devo
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Msg #: 1019 SKEP Subboard
From: N = R*FGFPNEFLFIFAL 22-MAR-1990 Sent: 03-24-90 03:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:01
Re: THE SKEPTICAL INQUIRER -
From: klaes@25.923.enet (N = R*fgfpneflfifaL 22-Mar-1990 0902)
Date: 22 Mar 90 14:27:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Message-ID: <9003221426.AA00129@decwrl.dec.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
THE SKEPTICAL INQUIRER magazine is published by CSICOP
(Committee
for the Scientific Investigation of Claims Of the Paranormal).
Among
CSICOP's members are Isaac Asimov, F. H. C. Crick, L. Sprague de
Camp,
Stephen Jay Gould, Philip J. Klass, Edwin C. Krupp, James Oberg,
Carl
Sagan, and B. F. Skinner. The occupations range from writers to
psychologists, along with professors, astronomers, professional
magicians, and even a film producer.
Their address is:
THE SKEPTICAL INQUIRER
Post Office Box 229
Central Park Station
Buffalo, New York 14215-0229
U.S.A.
Telephone: (716) 834-3222
I am not associated with CSICOP in any form.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1020 SKEP Subboard
From: C.E.T.L. JONES Sent: 03-24-90 06:48
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:01
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: cej@ll1a.ATT.COM (C.E.T.L. Jones)
Date: 23 Mar 90 03:21:05 GMT
Organization: AT&T, Lisle, Il.
Message-ID: <7303@ll1a.ATT.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <90080.210139RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu> (Bob Dainauski) writes:
>In article <23323@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, (Ken Shirriff) says:
>>
>>A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
>>all over the United States.
>>
> Well ??? Don't just tease us like that! What was the
>urban myth started by your friend?
No, no, it's a FoF story. Note the "friend of a friend," the
sure mark of an urban myth.
Just some subtle meta-humor. (It's okay Ken, I laughed.)
--
Charles Evan Thomas Llewellyn Jones
...att!ll1a!cej [Just me, not AT&T] cej@ll1a.att.com
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Msg #: 1021 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC PEPKE Sent: 03-24-90 06:48
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:01
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Date: 23 Mar 90 05:15:38 GMT
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them
Message-ID: <591@fsu.scri.fsu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article eiverson@nmsu.edu
(Eric
Iverson) writes:
> Let's say for example
> that I wanted to fool you into thinking I drove through your
> cornfield. Given adequate technical skills, this could be
> accomplished without the use of a car. But this does not mean that I
> couldn't have done the same thing with a car as well.
What's the point? Let's say I wanted to convince you that everything
in
the world is being controlled by Big Eyed Beans from Venus. If I had
enough creativity, I might be able to do it, but that wouldn't prove
that
the world *wasn't* being controlled by Big Eyed Beans from Venus. All
you
have said that it is impossible to prove a negative in the most general
case. This is true regardless of science or skepticism or whatever.
Someone interested in thwarting the proof of impossibility will always
push the discussion to the most general case, and that person can
always
succeed, regardless of anything real. General proofs of impossibility,
once you omit things which clearly violate natural laws that really
cannot
be broken, are usually inductive. Who is to say that all the Bahia
grass
plants in the world won't spontaneously uproot themselves and form into
a
6000 Km apparition of Gumby dancing the polka? There is a finite
probability that that will occur. The fact that it didn't occur
yesterday
doesn't demonstrate anything, especially to people who want to believe
that it will happen tomorrow. The probablility is really quite small,
but
that difference between very small and zero is something that people
have
time and time again shown a willingness to die over.
> I refuse to
> believe that every person who reports a paranormal phenomenon is a
> hoaxster just because their photographs or physical evidence can be
> replicated by trickery.
I could say again, for about the tenth time, that not everybody is
trying
to make you believe that, but you could ignore or refuse to understand
that statement, as you have done for about the previous nine. I refuse
to
acquiesce to your attempt to polarize any questioning of labeling
something as "paranormal" as an accusation of being a hoaxter. I gave
an
alternate (and to me more likely) description of self-delusion, which I
presented without blame or implication of dishonesty. The psychology
of
belief is fascinating and complex and does not automatically reduce to
hoaxing and trickery. If you choose not to understand that, that is
your
decision. I discussed tricks only as a mechanism of explication, which
mechanism apparantly failed miserably. There is no point trying to
clarify it; I am sure you will win.
> My point was not that dowsing sticks work. My point was that when I
> told my friend that the guy was having success, he wouldn't even
> believe me. This is a good example of what I mean be rejecting raw
> data.
Again, what's the point? Maybe you need to get more friends, or maybe
you
just need to listen a little better to the other things that people are
saying instead of only that which supports your thesis of people
"rejecting raw data." Maybe you might try listening to your own
criticisms. In any event, I bet you did not present this to your
friend
as "raw data." I bet that you used either the word "dowsing" or
"paranormal" in what you said to him. You presented to him a neat
little
paranormal package, using words which he associated with ready-made
explanations and preconcieved ideas. Maybe he responded defensively.
I
bet he had five fingers on each hand, too--another characteristic of
being
human. So what? This is a very good adversarial tactic for putting
people on the defensive, and I'm sure if you continue to use it, you
will
get much success. But what does it mean, if anything?
By your standards, do skeptics have to be entirely devoid of any human
failings in order to be saying anything of importance?
Again, the skeptical view is this: Defining something as paranormal is
tantamount to saying that it cannot in any way be normal. To disprove
assumptions of the paranormal nature of something, it is sufficient to
show that it can be normal. That does not and cannot prove that it
cannot
be paranormal; that is not possible. All it shows is that a paranormal
label is not required.
In other words:
EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF.
> However, he said he didn't practice it as it had a tendency to freak
> out the customers. He emphatically told me "It can't work, it
> shouldn't work, but it does work." I realize this is all anecdotal,
> but I'm sure he has a lot of happy customers who would back me up.
Your statement of the "map dowsing," if *well documented* would indeed
be
valid criticism of my speculations about the mechanism. However, that
is
of only secondary importance. Maybe I'm just not inventive enough to
devise a plausible explanation. The controlled experiments I suggested
would still show whether what he did had anything to do with cues or
not.
Why not try them rather than pile probabilities and plausibilities to
try
to get a value of truth or falsehood? I have to reiterate that such
experiments have been done, with experienced, professional dowsers with
various numbers of years of never having come up dry, and that at least
one such experiment has been done on national television, and that none
of
those experiments has ever shown that there is anything to dowsing.
Your
anecdotes and surety of the lots of happy customers doesn't stand up to
that. If you have better evidence, present it. If you want to believe
what you want to believe based on your anecdotes, that's fine, too, but
I'll believe well-designed controlled experiments over hearsay of
self-description.
I'm sure your famous dowser could get ten grand if he could manage to
prove his talent to Randi, and I'm sure the ensuing one-year contract
would make him more money and fame than a year of pointing at well
sites.
Maybe you might try to get word to him, after all, if what he does is
so
reliable, he may be missing out on a very lucrative opportunity.
Aside: Is there any place in Minnesota where you cannot find water no
matter how deep you drill? Could a "dowser" find this place?
Eric Pepke
INTERNET:pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 1022 SKEP Subboard
From: TORKIL HAMMER Sent: 03-24-90 06:49
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-06-90 12:02
Re: (R)NEW AGE THINKERS (WAS
From: torkil@psivax.UUCP (Torkil Hammer)
Date: 20 Mar 90 00:48:18 GMT
Organization: Pacesetter Systems Inc., Sylmar, CA
Message-ID: <3340@psivax.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <456@argus.mrcu> paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson) writes:
#
#OK. I have heard a few bits and pieces of philosophy labled "new
#age" on TV, and have seen the label thrown around on this group,
#mainly as a term of abuse or implying unsound thinking.
#
#Can anyone out there explain what "new age thinkers" think? Any
#definitive books? Any testable hypotheses?
New Age refers to the Age of Aquarius, an astrological term derived
from the astronomical observation of the precession of the equinoxes.
An 'Age' lasts about 2000 years, and the next is just about to go.
The current is Age of Pisces.
The 'Age of Aquarius' theme came out in the open with 'Hair', a musical
about the dreamers of the 1960's [see below].
The 'New Age' name became common at the 'harmonic convergence', which
was a rare, but not mysterious, astronomical occurrance of approximate
alignment of many planets.
The harmonic convergence, true believers said, would end all man-made
ills on earth. ('Man', specifically 'male'. See below).
In terms of hypotheses:
The cold war following WW2 carried with it a widespread fear of
a nuclear war to end all human life. 'Angst', as psyks call it.
A few years later Europe saw a grassroot movement made from
philosophers, ecologists and dreamers who dreamed that by going back to
a time before 'science' gave the world nuclear fallout, insecticides,
acid rain, oil shortage, environment pollution and some more ills,
percieved as end results of male dominance - these problems would
disappear. You close your eyes and it is gone, right?
The 'Roots' movement became immensely popular. Commercial music was
out,
folk music in. Business, engineering, automobiles was out,
home dyeing, bicycles and feeling was in. Technology became the
most popular target, as it was the symbol of above problems plus
alienation from a simpler life plus male dominance.
Eventually: Laundry machines and electric razors were out, water
tubs and soap shave was in. If it is awkward it must be good for
the environment, right? Never mind that those inventions actually
save energy, water and pollution.
At this point the better educated and more rational individuals had left
the movement in disgust. It still carries a legacy of green
politics [ecology], wicca [feminism], socialism [antiestablishment]
and astrology [antiscience], but serious minded greens etc have disowned
New Age.
#
#If "science or rather technology has screwed up" then what are you
#proposing in its place? (I asked this in an earlier note). Is
I don't think science or technology screwed up, but I am not a New Ager
anyway, just a curious observer. I don't think unmitigated intuition
leads to any good, either. Just one example: Intuition is what tells
us
that when we focus close up, we strain a focusing muscle in the eye.
Science is what tells us that it is the other way around.
But I maintain that New Age is dangerous, because it is populist.
Populist means political clout which can be funneled by right wingers
into fund cuts for science and science education, Creation Science
[there's your oxymoron, finally] and monkey trials.
Torkil
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Msg #: 1023 SKEP Subboard
From: NICHAEL CRAMER Sent: 03-24-90 06:49
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:14
Re: WHY URBAN MYTHS? [WAS: SC
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Date: 23 Mar 90 03:13:34 GMT
Message-ID: <53980@bbn.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Robert M Derrick writes:
>Peter Nelson writes:
>> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
>> how (and *if*) it propagated....
> ... What fuels an Urban Myth is much the same
>as the mana that fuels advertising, fads, and all those other things
>that spell Riches for the first to actualize the idea. ...[It] has a
life of
>its own. No one seems to be able to guess ahead of time which ones
>will live and which will wither.
This feature of having an apparent life of its own is one of the
aspects of
UMs that has always interested me.
While Doctor boB is right that the art of predicting which legend will
catch fire is probably closer to witchcraft than to science, it still
seems
that we can ask reasonable questions about how --and why-- they
propogate.
In the first place in our society (and I assume in most others) such
stories are basically self-propagating: on the one hand, since we can
assume that most people who tell them assume them to be true (and the
stories have to be "true" --see below) these people have no reason not
to
pass the story along.
On the other hand, if you know a story to be false, there's no nice way
of
pointing this fact out to the teller: ultimately what it comes down to
is
that you are calling the teller either a dupe or a liar. If you're
lucky
(and the other person knows what an UL is) you may get an embarrassed
giggle about "being caught again", but you more typically get a reaction
along the lines of "Oh yeah; well *prove* it's not true!" [NOTE1]
(There are also cases of people who pass along these stories
deliberately.
A friend of my parents culls old stories out of Reader's Digest and then
retells them as having happened to her.)
As to the question of why legends like these exist, it's always seemed
to
me that they serve a very real social function. With a very few, highly
limited exceptions, in our society there is no real mechanism for a non-
proffessional to tell a fictional story simply because it's a "neat
story".
Now, as I say, there are some exceptions to this. One case is a joke;
but a
joke has a very strict form that it has to follow (it has to be
"funny"; it
has to build up to a specific, well defined punch line at the end, etc.)
and most UM don't really fit this mold. Similarly there are stories
like
fairy tales to be told to children. And obviously there are
*professional*
story-tellers who can do this (that, after all, is what theater and
literature are). But by and large there is no convenient means for an
adult in our society to simply tell another adult an interesting story
in a
social setting that they both know to be fictional.
As I pointed out above, these stories really *have* to be "true" in
order
to work; as an experiment, try telling such a story --particularly a
non-
humorous one-- to a co-worker, but preface it with "this is not true,
it's
not a joke, but it's a neat story". The story is really no less
"amusing"
because it is fiction, but it will more likely simply fall flat on its
face.
[NOTE1: One doesn't have to do this in a rude way to get a strong
reaction.
At a recent departmental cookout, a wife of a co-worker was telling the
"Mexican Pet"[NOTE2] story as having happened to the mother of a
school-friend of her daughter (relocated to the Charles river in
Boston).
It was amazing; she was telling the story virtually verbatim, straight
out
of Brunvand's book. Anyway, when she finished, I pointed out --as
politely
as I could-- that this was an old legend, that it was in this book,
etc.
Her reaction was basically to puff up and tell me that, well, it may
be in
that book, but also happened again, two weeks ago! I don't think she
spoke
to me again the rest of the afternoon! ;) ]
[NOTE2: A woman goes goes walking near a river and finds what seems to
be a
severly undernourished small dog which capturers her heart. For some
reason (typically to get past customs) she hides the dog under her
(typically fur-) coat. When she gets home, she takes the poor sickly
creature to the vet, who after examining the "dog" tells the woman
that it
is fact an enourmous rat. ]
NICHAEL
| Nichael Lynn Cramer | The way of the fussbudget |
| -- Nichael@BBN.Com | is not easy. |
| -- NCramer@BBN.Com | -- Lucy Van Pelt |
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1024 SKEP Subboard
From: ALLEN.J.TINO Sent: 03-24-90 06:52
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:14
Re: (R)SKEPTICAL PERIODICALS
From: tino@cbnewsh.ATT.COM (allen.j.tino)
Date: 23 Mar 90 14:08:48 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Message-ID: <9117@cbnewsh.ATT.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Tad Cook asks:
>Can anyone post some information on "skeptical" periodicals? I have
>run into two, and wonder if they were the same publication. Last
>fall I found a small magazine about the size of TV Guide, and I think
>it was called The Sceptical Inquirer, but I am not sure. It had
>many interesting articles, including one on "Bigfoot".
The Skeptical Inquirer is the official publication of CSICOP
(Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
Paranormal):
The Skeptical Inquirer
Box 229
Buffalo, NY 14215-0229
800-634-1610 (Outside NYS)
716-834-3222 (In NYS)
>The other one I saw a couple of years ago, I think. It was larger size
>(8.5 by 11?) and had a great article about Randi and his debunking of
>Peter Popof (sp?), who was the faith healer that used lo-band VHF
>to prompt him during his "miracles".
Your thinking of Free Inquiry, published by CODESH (Committee for
Democratic
and Secular Humanism). These folks take a skeptical view of religion.
Free Inquiry
Box 5
Buffalo, NY 14215-0005
800-458-1366 (Outside NYS)
716-834-2921 (In NYS)
While we're at it, let me mention a great source of skeptical books:
Prometheus Books
700 East Amherst St.
Buffalo, NY 14215
800-421-0351 (Outside NYS)
716-837-2475 (In NYS)
Looks like Buffalo is the place to be!
_______
Al Tino
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1025 SKEP Subboard
From: JIM GALASYN Sent: 03-24-90 06:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:14
Re: A DIVERSION FROM "SERIOUS
From: jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn)
Date: 21 Mar 90 21:54:58 GMT
Organization: The Boeing Co., BCA FSL, Seattle, WA
Message-ID: <1012@tahoma.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Since I'm sort of responsible for this skepticism-about-skepticism
thread,
here's some McTruth from the SubGenius Foundation, communionicated to me
during eroto-tantritrance while I was 'Fropped out of my mind on
Jehovah-1's
corporate sin galaxy. It is lifted from THREE-FISTED TALES OF "BOB"
and
written by (Rev.) Michael Peppe. Here "God" interviews the one true
Slack-
master and High Epopt of the Church of SubGenius, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs...
60660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660660
606606
"But enough chitchat about trivialities," said "God," getting up.
"I've
got a lot more important things to do than shoot the shit with you
about My
wild and crazy youth. Like take My eternal break, for example, which
is too
short as it is." He clasped His hands behind Him and began to slowly
pace.
"You asked Me why I called you here today." Here He wheeled and
skewered
"Bob" with a very grave, if slightly bloodshot, look. "You're Prophet's
License is up for renewal."
"Bob's" jaw dropped. "Already?"
"Time flies, eternity waits."
"Does this mean I have to reapply all over again?"
"No. You just have to take the oral. And we better jam on it:
I've
gotta run off a whole buncha these today." He gestured towards the
window to
the outer office. Through it "Bob" could see Christ, Mohammed, Gautama
Buddha, Zoroaster, Ramakrishna, Gurdjieff, Werner Erhard, Edgar Cayce,
Mary
Baker Eddy, L. Ron Hubbard, Dr. Gene Scott and several others in a kind
of
waiting room, flipping through old READER'S DIGESTs.
"There's a possible twenty-one points in all," began "God."
"Twenty
questions, and the last one counts double. They start out easy and get
harder. Question number one: What is freedom?"
"Oh, that's easy. Slavery of choice."
"Very good. Two: What is science?"
"Everyone's personal religion."
"And religion?"
"Somebody's else's science: speculation."
"I see you've been doing your homework. Four: What is insanity?"
"The state of being insufficiently neurotic."
"And neurosis?"
"Personality."
"And why is that?"
"Because consciousness always needs to have a style."
"Seven. This one's a little tougher. A fish is to water as the
mind
is to...?"
"Um...information?"
"No. Falsehood. One wrong. What do all the evils in the world
have in
common?"
"They're all necessary ones."
"Correct. And who commits them?"
"Everyone?"
"No. Everyone else. Two wrong. What are the two great keys to
lifelong
happiness and what great modern thinker discovered them?"
"Oh that's easy. Good health and a bad memory. Ingrid Bergman."
"To whom is all religious, moral, political, scientific and
artistic
preaching directed?"
"The converted."
"And what is the most important information in any message?"
"The name of the messenger."
"What did you, cram for this? Thirteen: Why do some people
believe in
Me?"
"Because You exist?"
"Of course not, silly. Personally I think I definitely might, but
that's
not relevant. Because they're afraid not to. And why do other people
NOT
believe in Me?"
"Hmm. Because they're afraid to?"
"No. Trick question. Everyone believes in God. They just don't
believe
in someone ELSE'S God."
"But...what about atheists?"
Hell, they need more faith than ANYONE: They gotta believe in
EVERYTHING!
Anyway, I should know: Who d'ya think invented faith in the first
place, for
God's sakes, Oral Roberts? And I did it long before I shrink-wrapped
HOMO
SAPIENS to fit AROUND it, believe Me."
"But what about scientists, who--"
"SCIENTISTS? All those guys do is make us new names for Me. For
example, their latest one is 'the Big Bang,' by using which they
actually
think they're believing in something else--just by changing the name!
But you
notice they're always very careful to capitalize it....Speaking of
which,
let's move on to the next section: cosmology. Which is greater: the
number
of stars or the number of universes?"
"Um...neither. They're exactly the same."
"Actually, not exactly, but close enough. At any given time, the
number
of universes exceeds the number of stars by an average of 1,341: close
enough
to be negligible. Here's another easy one: What's a black hole?"
"The house arrest of the four dimensions?"
"No. My empty grave. Seventeen: Is the universe composed of
waves or
particles?"
"Both."
"Wrong. Neither. The universe consists of infinitesimal looped
strings
vibrating in ten dimensions."
"What happened to the other six?"
"Fell down and got lost in the cracks between the first four in
the first
moment of creation. In fact, you should have gotten that one: It was
just
discovered recently by a human physicist at Princeton named Edward
Witten.
Can you name the OTHER two of the only three humans in history whose
theories
on the nature of reality were correct?"
"Umm...Einstein, and...Buddha?"
"Both wrong. One was the Cabalist sage Isaac ben Solomon Luria,
who in
the sixteenth century correctly surmised, in his theory of ZIMZUM, or
contraction, that My first act of creation was to retract Myself from
exis-
tence, in order to make room for the world. In fact," He murmured
confi-
dentially, "what the physicists AND the Cabalists don't realize is, I
AM the
other six dimensions!"
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 1026 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 03-24-90 06:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:15
Re: HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIGINA
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 23 Mar 90 16:40:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <495e4e88.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
This is GREAT!! I love this kind of stuff. Thank you for
posting it. Does anyone know if Factsheet Five is still in
publication?
Of course the whole flying saucer thing is a government
conspiracy. Leaks of other government secrets (Watergate,
Iranscam, bombing of Cambodia, etc, were no doubt done ON
PURPOSE so we would think they can't keep a secret.
A few detailed comments:
> I wish to make it absolutely clear that I do not consider
>myself a hero.
Oh..... OK, I'll agree.
> MJ-12 is responsible only to the President.
> MJ-12 runs most of the world's illegal drug trade.
But....but what about Queen Elizabeth and Henry Kissinger?
> AQUARIUS is a project which compiled the history of alien
>presence and their interaction with Homo Sapiens upon this planet
>for the last 25,000 years and culminating with the Basque people
>who live in the mountainous country on the border of France and
>Spain and the Syrians.
The Basques and the Syrians??? Of course, why not?! I love it!
Personally, I always thought the Finns were the aliens; I mean
their language is nothing like the neighboring Scandinavians or
Russians. Where did they come from? I guess this shows how
gullible I am.
> The aliens claim to have created Homo Sapiens through hy-
>bridization.
You mean the Church of the Subgenius is RIGHT?? Praise Bob!!!
> Martial law would be declared and all persons with implants
>would be rounded up along with all dissidents and would be placed
>into concentration camps.
No doubt "persons with implants" will turn out to be Jews, blacks,
gun-owners, members of the ACLU, etc.
> And later he states: "Because of reports like these [UFOs],
>airline pilots became subject to military restrictions contained
>in a Joint Army-Navy-Air Force Publication (JANAP), drawn up by
>the Joint Communications-Electronics Committee, and promulgated
>by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and could thus find themselves li-
>able to a prison term of up to 10 years and/or a fine of $10,000
>if they discussed their sightings with the media or public"
How is it possible to have a secret law? Such a case would
still have to be able to come to trial so the cat would be out
of the bag. Besides some airline pilots HAVE discussed UFO
sightings
with the public and didn't go to jail for it.
Finally, if the Southwest is dotted with the wreckage of alien
spaceships how come nobody else has found pieces of them? The
"lack of physical evidence" problem has always bedeviled the UFO
conspiracy fans, but if Cooper is right then there should really
be tons of physical evidence all over the place. Also, does
Ralph Nader realize how unsafe these UFO's are, what with them
crashing all over the place?
---Peter
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1027 SKEP Subboard
From: BRAD PIERCE Sent: 03-24-90 06:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:15
Re: METHOD TO COOPER'S MADNES
From: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce)
Date: 24 Mar 90 06:57:29 GMT
Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department
Message-ID: <33456@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
Here are two relevant postings about Cooper culled from alt.conspiracy.
The
first is message <32526@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> by me
. The second (and better) one is message
<1990Mar5.005150.12536@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> by Mike de Mare
------------------ <32526@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> -------------------------
------------------ pierce@cs.ucla.edu ----------------------------
Not long ago (Jan 4, 1990) in alt.conspiracy, Tad Cook
wrote in article <356@ssc.UUCP>:
** Thanks for the interesting piece on William Cooper. I read the whole
** thing. At first I was only a bit sceptical, but as I read on about
** various conspiracies, including a tie-in between aliens and the JFK
** assasination, I realized how delusional Mr. Cooper must be.
I disagreed with him on this point, writing in article
<30415@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU>:
** Obviously (to me) his info is totally bogus. On the other hand, I
** most seriously doubt that Mr. Cooper is delusional. Occam's Razor
** provides a much simpler explanation for why a "former" intelligence
** officer would spread such disinformation. Very few of the bogus
** UFO "experts" are crackpots, some are just charlatans, but most
** merely serve to distract people who are interested in finding out
** the truth and to associate various conspiracies (such as the JFK
** assassination) and the very idea of a conspiracy with crackpotism.
**
** The cult of UFO's is the most classical example of disinformation
** I am aware of. Just reread Mr. Cooper's comments with that thought
** in mind and this should become obvious. Mr. Cooper doesn't mention
** them, but many "experts" are currently talking about a race of
** blond blue-eyed aliens with names like Thor that advise our leaders,
** some even claim to have talked to them.
Paladin also had grave reservations about
Cooper's veracity, writing in article :
** Mr. Cooper is false. He could not possibly have had access to these
** supposed "Top Secrets" because his description of how one gets to
see the
** highest of classified material is patently false. I am not claiming
to
** have those sorts of clearances, but I am the son of one who does, so
I
** do know a little about how it's done. And the "Cult of Alienality"?
** Well.. that was mildly entertaining. I wonder if he ever took part
in
** the Army LSD tests of the 60's??
Of course, I doubt that Mr. Cooper's story was invented while on
LSD or that it was invented by him personally. As I wrote more
recently in article <32485@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU>:
** Innocent until proven guilty, of course, but I think that all
** conspiracy lovers should strongly consider the possibility that
** Milton Cooper is an intelligence operative involved in "active
** measures", i.e., spreading disinformation. He was discussed
** earlier on this newsgroup, including one of his speeches, and
** I got very bad "vibes" about him. The purpose of such a possible
** disinformation campaign would be to smear people inquiring into
** the JFK assassination conspiracy as conspiracy "nuts" or "buffs"
** and to distract attention (like a magician) from what's really
** going on. Good and intelligent people will disagree, but I think
** that there is no solid evidence for any non-Earth origins of
** UFO incidents, and that the issue has been and is being exploited
** for political ends.
A great book on the subject of the JFK assassination is _Crossfire:
The Plot That Killed Kennedy_" by Jim Marrs, (c) 1989, 608 pages,
$25.95, Carroll & Graf, hardback. [I have no connection with Jim
Marrs or Carroll & Graf publishers and this posting is for non-commer-
cial informational purposes only.] This book is a comprehensive
reference to the facts surrounding the "Crime of the Century".
"Conspiracy" has been made into a word associated with paranoia, but it
is
a legal term, a crime which people and companies are convicted of
regularly,
whether it was the conspiracy to remove electric trollies from LA or the
conspiracy by baseball owners not to bid on baseball free agents.
-- Brad
--------- <1990Mar5.005150.12536@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>
------------------
----------------- demarem@clutx.clarkson.edu
---------------------------
A few points. First EXCALIBUR, whatever it is, is owned by the Navy
which
makes it highly unlikely that it is intended for use as an inland
weapon.
Second, I think that the idea of Cooper as being an intelligence agent
is
credible. After examining his document, I find several things that
seem to
be calculated to damage his credibilty and that of all people
investigating
UFO phenomina.
o Kennedy Assasination link - this has already been discussed and
I
will not worry greatly about it.
o That aliens created human beings. This is not only
preposturous,
it seems calculated to offend. That is to say, people who might
give credence to UFO sightings will be turned off by this.
o Aliens created four major religions. Same as above.
o Aliens created Jesus. This will obviously offend the majority
of people in this country and make them feel it is their reli-
gous duty to disbeleive ANY reports of Extraterrestrial
Biological
Entities visting this planet.
o Implants in brain. This goes against the basic belief of people
in free will. This will also turn many people off to all
reports
of EBE activity.
o One-world government by 1992. This is obviously false.
o Close ties with USSR since WWII. This also is designed to
stretch
credibility.
Also we must observe the following facts about Mr Cooper personally:
o He was an intelligence officer. This, I am afraid to say, tends
to damage his credibility. It is not as bad as if he had worked
for the CIA but it is still not good karma.
o He is (apparently) still alive. If the the conspiracy he was
discussing actually exists he would most likely have been term-
inated.
Message too long. Truncated to 150 lines!
Msg #: 1028 SKEP Subboard
From: CHUCK PHILLIPS Sent: 03-24-90 11:29
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:15
Re: (R)WORLD POPULATION IS DE
From: chuckp@ncr-fc.FtCollins.NCR.com (Chuck Phillips)
Date: 23 Mar 90 16:00:26 GMT
Organization: NCR Microelectronics, Ft. Collins, CO
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,rec.humor
On a related note (pun intended): It has been established that
sterility _is_ inherited. Further, it is a dominant trait.
PROOF: If your parents don't have children, it is certain that
that
you won't either.
Where's my Nobel? :-)
--
Chuck Phillips -- chuckp%ncr-fc.FtCollins.NCR.COM
uunet!ncrlnk!ncr-sd!chuckp%ncr-fc
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1029 SKEP Subboard
From: FRANK TREDEAU Sent: 03-24-90 11:29
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:15
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: frank@masscomp.ccur.com (Frank Tredeau)
Date: 23 Mar 90 17:39:41 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer Corp. - Westford, Ma
Message-ID: <26877@masscomp.ccur.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <23323@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu
(Ken Shirriff) writes:
nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM
(Peter Nelson) writes:
<> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
<> how (and *if*) it propagated.
<
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <3340@psivax.UUCP> torkil@psivax.UUCP (Torkil Hammer) writes:
> A few years later Europe saw a grassroot movement made from
> philosophers, ecologists and dreamers who dreamed that by going back
to
> a time before 'science' gave the world nuclear fallout, insecticides,
> acid rain, oil shortage, environment pollution and some more ills,
> percieved as end results of male dominance - these problems would
> disappear. You close your eyes and it is gone, right?
Well, I think you do them a bit of a disservice. I too believe that
most New Agers are dunderheads, but I think their motivations are
genuine. If you look around today, it is quite clear that there is a
lot of alienation and potential environmental hazzard that is
largely due to our abuse of technology. However, unlike the New Agers
I don't think that we should go back to our ignorant past. Instead, I
feel we should take a complex systems approach to things, where we
realize the fragile interdependent nature of systems rather than the
Cartesian/Mechanistic approach in which components of a system can be
altered exclusive of their context. This would be consistent with
work being done in non-linear dynamics and is, in some sense, a more
"intuitive" non-deterministic approach. In this way it is most likely
consistent with many New Age beliefs. However, it requires greater
knowledge of science, not less, which is where it splits off from
conventional New Age thought. I might add though that there are New
Agers like Fritjof Capra and others that do advocate this approach.
The Bantam New Age Coffee Book series has a number of books on this
topic. Though I doubt that most crystal worshipers can understand them.
> The 'Roots' movement became immensely popular. Commercial music was
out,
> folk music in. Business, engineering, automobiles was out,
> home dyeing, bicycles and feeling was in. Technology became the
> most popular target, as it was the symbol of above problems plus
> alienation from a simpler life plus male dominance.
Again, living simply is not necessarily bad. Living stupidly and
inefficiently is what is bad. When people were more closely tied to
the land, they were also more likely to respect it and use it
efficiently in order to ensure personal survival. However, they were
also more vulnerable, which is why we had "progress" in the first
place, in order to create some sort of support structure. But as
a result this original spirit of respect for the land is now
appallingly lacking in our disposable, over-packaged, consumer
society. However, there's no reason that back to the land has to mean
backing away from science.
> Eventually: Laundry machines and electric razors were out, water
> tubs and soap shave was in. If it is awkward it must be good for
> the environment, right? Never mind that those inventions actually
> save energy, water and pollution.
You're right that electric razors are not necessarily bad things.
However, in certain contexts they may not be the best solution (i.e.
living where no replacement parts are available) Sometimes simpler
solutions work better for some situations. However, you are right to
point out the ignorance of people who think that somehow using a
straight razor doesn't use any resources. That is unless shaving
cream can be proven to appear out of thin air....:-)
> But I maintain that New Age is dangerous, because it is populist.
> Populist means political clout which can be funneled by right wingers
> into fund cuts for science and science education, Creation Science
> [there's your oxymoron, finally] and monkey trials.
Right wing New Age....now there's a concept. The only right wing new
ager I know of is Elizabeth Claire Prophet, and she certainly isn't
typical of the mainstream. It's true that ignorance of science can
leave us vulnerable to monkey trials. But as long as right wing
creationists are trying to stamp out the devil inspired new agers, you
won't see a coalition coming from those two camps.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN,
DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a
cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1031 SKEP Subboard
From: GEORGE NELAN Sent: 03-24-90 11:30
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:18
Re: (R)HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIG
From: nelan@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (George Nelan)
Date: 23 Mar 90 20:53:07 GMT
Organization: Arizona State Univ, Tempe
Message-ID: <609@enuxha.eas.asu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
I come from Jupiter, where everyone's stupider.
Ok, Ok, just a joke.
--
George Nelan, ERC 207, Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona, USA,
85287
INET: nelan@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
UUCP: ...{allegra,{ames,husc6,rutgers}!ncar}!noao!asuvax!nelan
What, me worry? Nyah!
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1032 SKEP Subboard
From: BRUCE S. WOODCOCK Sent: 03-24-90 13:13
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:18
Re: (R)HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIG
From: sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Bruce S. Woodcock)
Date: 24 Mar 90 06:13:35 GMT
Organization: Purdue Univ. Physics Dept., W. Lafayette, IN
Message-ID: <3361@newton.physics.purdue.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <609@enuxha.eas.asu.edu> nelan@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (George
Nelan) writes:
>I come from Jupiter, where everyone's stupider.
>Ok, Ok, just a joke.
>--
I come from Mars, where we make candy bars.
My girlfriend`s from Venus, you outta come and meet us.
(Anyone else have anything to add?)
| Actually, life IS a bed of roses, but somebody| Of course I`m a
romantic! |
| forgot to remove the thorns... | Why do you think I`ve
never |
| Life IS fair, but most people aren`t... | had a
girlfriend? |
| Internet: sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu| Sir Bruce Sterling,
Paladin |
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1033 SKEP Subboard
From: JOHN SPARKS Sent: 03-24-90 17:25
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:18
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks)
Date: 23 Mar 90 17:11:19 GMT
Organization: Corpane Industries, Inc., Louisville Ky
Message-ID: <1632@corpane.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
|In article <4953b7df.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM
(Peter Nelson) writes:
|> I've always wanted to try to *start* an urban myth and monitor
|> how (and *if*) it propagated.
|A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
|all over the United States.
This sounds like an Urban myth to me.
sorry, I couldn't resist :-)
--
John Sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps. Accessable via Starlink
(Louisville KY)
sparks@corpane.UUCP <><><><><><><><><><><> D.I.S.K. ph:502/968-5401
thru -5406
Death is nature's way of telling you to slow down.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1034 SKEP Subboard
From: CRAIG PRESSON Sent: 03-24-90 17:25
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:18
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: craig@b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Date: 24 Mar 90 11:43:18 GMT
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Message-ID: <7714@b11.ingr.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <90081.162603RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu> RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu (Bob
Dainauski) writes:
>In article <2608A0D1.7948@paris.ics.uci.edu>, madsen@ics.uci.edu
(Rodney Kent
>Madsen) says:
>>
>>shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:
>>
>>>A friend of a friend of mine tried this and the urban myth spread
>>>all over the United States.
>>
>>Aha! Is this the start of an urban myth about "a guy who started an
urban
>>myth that spread throughout the country," or am I recursing too
deeply?
>>
>Ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh. Now I get it. Sorry, I read the original
>too quickly and without my sarcasm detector. Nicely done Ken.
>
>Bob
>
>Bob Dainauski
>RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu
>(717) 948-6426
We can all learn from Bob: never read News without your sarcasm
detector!
From misc.forsale: Used F-systems 202 sarcasm detector for Sun/4.
$320.00 or
best offer. Reason: I had to buy a model 404 after I started reading
the alt.* groups.
c
o
u
n
t
T
H
I
S
\
\ *
\/
------
"The undefined operation trap is taken before the instruction is
executed."
-- CLIPPER User's Manual
** Craig Presson, Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, Alabama
...!uunet!ingr!b11!craig **
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Msg #: 1035 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 03-24-90 21:35
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:18
Re: (R)HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIG
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 24 Mar 90 22:17:25 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <3361@newton.physics.purdue.edu>
sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Bruce S. Woodcock) writes:
In article <609@enuxha.eas.asu.edu> nelan@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (George
Nelan) writes:
>I come from Jupiter, where everyone's stupider.
>Ok, Ok, just a joke.
>--
I come from Mars, where we make candy bars.
My girlfriend`s from Venus, you outta come and meet us.
(Anyone else have anything to add?)
I only come from earth, for what that's worth....
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN,
DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a
cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
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Msg #: 1036 SKEP Subboard
From: MARK ROBERT THORSON Sent: 03-25-90 01:30
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-16-90 07:15
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson)
Date: 25 Mar 90 01:00:08 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Message-ID: <28244@cup.portal.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Would this UM be strictly a benign UM, or should it have some kind of
edge to it? For example, an anti-nuclear power UM might try to convince
people that there was some residual radioactivity in electricity
generated
from nuclear power. An anti-Catholic UM might convince people that
the RC church was covering up thousands of AIDS cases transmitted by
Communion cups.
Non-benign UM's have the advantage of a constituency to help propagate
the myth. Witness the McDonalds and Proctor & Gamble myths which
connected those corporations with Satanism. (Of course, P&G was just
asking for it with the man-in-the-moon logo of theirs, now replaced in
most products by the CP logo of Colgate-Palmolive [or does that actually
stand for "Communist Party" :-] ) These myths found fertile ground in
some Christian churches, of the Bible-thumping ilk, who believe in a
literal
devil and that a significant segment of the population worships the
devil.
I think a successful UM is one which catches the imagination of the
public,
usually because it hijacks some other successful memes. It is as though
the UM provides a missing piece of the puzzle. For example, the
receptionist
where I work firmly believes that green potatoes contain arsenic,
something
she was told by a teacher in elementary school. This fits, because of
two
successful memes which happen to be true: things which contain arsenic
are
often green, and green potatoes are poisonous. Ergo, green potatoes
contain
arsenic. Pointing out that arsenic is an element, hence a potato cannot
manufacture arsenic, had no effect on this person. I suppose she
doesn't
really understand what an element is.
A successful "designer meme" would therefore fit with some simple,
obvious,
and well known existing memes. For example, smart people more often
wear
glasses than dumb people. The designer meme which fits with this is
that
glasses block UV light which kills brain cells. As another example, why
doesn't Wesson oil soak through food? Maybe they dissolve Saran wrap in
it. The latter could even be backed up by a do-at-home experiment.
Spread a thin layer of oil on a pie plate, and let it sit exposed to the
air for a long time, and it will form into something which resembles
plastic.
(I can just imagine some 3rd grade school teacher doing this experiment
to
"prove" to her pupils that salad oil has plastic added to it.)
I think the most powerful UM's are actually slight corruptions of the
truth.
For example, it is true that living tissue from aborted fetuses is being
used in scientific experiments. That is a very controversial topic
these
days, it has been covered extensively on the evening network news, and
so a subtrate meme has been planted in the collective unconscious
of the public mind. It is also true that fertilized eggs have been
raised
in vitro to a very early embryo stage, and that these embryos have been
implanted in women and babies have been delivered by this method. Also,
there are many adopted orphans who are seeking to find their parents,
and
this topic has been covered several times by popular TV shows like the
Donohue show. These three fact-memes provide the ideal substrate-memes
for a
factoid-meme which describes an aborted fetus, raised to a baby by
scientists,
who then seeks to find its mother.
The notion that a woman who had an abortion could someday answer a knock
at the door and find her aborted offspring is the sort of vivid and
gripping
image which could really catch the public imagination. And, of course,
there
would be a powerful constituency to help propagate this meme. (The only
real question is whether it would be a month, a week, or a
day-and-a-half
before this story shows up on the 700 Club.)
As to the original proposition that we create a UM strictly for
scientific
purposes, to observe its spread, seems unscientific to me. Was the
invention
of the atomic bomb a scientific experiment? You are talking about a
very
analogous sort of action. Nevertheless, it does have some scientific
aspects.
Perhaps if we were to create 10 or 100 memes, launch them all, and see
what
the results were, we would actually learn something. We would then
actually
get at the root of the UM phenomenon. We would learn what makes a meme
successful. This is not so much science as it is engineering, but then,
what's wrong with that?
Copyright 1990 Mark Thorson. Propagation of this text without the
disclaimer
is expressly forbidden.
Disclaimer: McDonalds and Proctor & Gample have no connection with
either
Satan, satanism, or the Communist Party. The CP logo represents the
Colgate
and Palmolive brand names. Wesson oil does not contain Saran wrap, or
any
other plastic. McDonalds, Proctor & Gamble, Colgate, Palmolive, Wesson,
and Saran are all trademarks of the companies which own them.
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Msg #: 1037 SKEP Subboard
From: SCOTT A. BEASLEY Sent: 03-25-90 01:30
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-07-90 00:19
Re: (R)HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIG
From: beez@humu.NOSC.MIL (Scott A. Beasley)
Date: 25 Mar 90 01:31:35 GMT
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego
Message-ID: <544@humu.NOSC.MIL>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <3361@newton.physics.purdue.edu>
sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Bruce S. Woodcock) writes:
>In article <609@enuxha.eas.asu.edu> nelan@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (George
Nelan) writes:
>>I come from Jupiter, where everyone's stupider.
>>Ok, Ok, just a joke.
>I come from Mars, where we make candy bars.
>My girlfriend`s from Venus, you outta come and meet us.
>(Anyone else have anything to add?)
We're little brown aliens - we come from Uranus.
We don't smell very good and it's a bitch to potty-train us -----
ENOUGH!! Before we get people trying to write about 'CYGNUS X-1'in
iambic pentameter with rhyming couplets...
from a man who thinks Einstein's first wife indeed introduced
him to relativity -
"Albie, I'd like you to meet my mother..."
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Msg #: 1038 SKEP Subboard
From: N = R*FGFPNEFLFIFAL 21-MAR-1990 Sent: 03-25-90 06:24
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-18-90 08:01
Re: CSICOP'S THE SKEPTICAL IN
From: klaes@wrksys.enet.dec.com (N = R*fgfpneflfifaL 21-Mar-1990 1117)
Date: 22 Mar 90 10:51:32 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Message-ID: <9003221051.AA20762@decwrl.dec.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
THE SKEPTICAL INQUIRER is a magazine published by CSICOP, the
Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the
Paranormal.
The list of CSICOP members is most impressive: Among them are
Isaac Asimov, F. H. C. Crick, L. Sprague de Camp, Stephen Jay Gould,
Philip J. Klass, Edwin C. Krupp, James Oberg, Carl Sagan, and B. F.
Skinner. Their occupations range from writers to psychologists,
along
with professors, astronomers, professional magicians, and even a
film
producer.
Their address is:
THE SKEPTICAL INQUIRER
Post Office Box 229
Central Park Station
Buffalo, New York 14215-0229
USA
Telephone: (716) 834-3222
I am not associated with CSICOP in any form.
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Msg #: 1039 SKEP Subboard
From: TAD COOK Sent: 03-25-90 06:25
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-18-90 08:02
Re: (R)SCI.SKEPTIC.URBAN.MYTH
From: tad@ssc.UUCP (Tad Cook)
Date: 24 Mar 90 22:00:15 GMT
Organization: very little
Message-ID: <580@ssc.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
i
YES! I would LOVE to see discussions of Urban Legends, if not
here, then perhaps in a new newsgroup. I had hoped to find
data on this stuff in alt.rumor, but most of the postings there
are tongue in cheek stuff made up by the posters to display
their cleverness.
Any other Brunvand fans out there who were excited by Nicael
Cramer's proposal?
Tad Cook
Seattle, WA
Packet: KT7H @ N7HFZ.WA.USA.NA
Phone: 206/527-4089
MCI Mail: 3288544
Telex: 6503288544 MCI UW
USENET:...uw-beaver!sumax!amc-gw!ssc!tad
or, tad@ssc.UUCP
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Msg #: 1040 SKEP Subboard
From: KENNETH NG Sent: 04-12-90 11:59
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:34
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: ken@argus.UUCP (Kenneth Ng)
Date: 25 Mar 90 09:45:23 GMT
Organization: NJ Instit. of Tech: TEIES Project
Message-ID: <1657@argus.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <28244@cup.portal.com>, mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson)
writes:
: Would this UM be strictly a benign UM, or should it have some kind of
: edge to it? For example, an anti-nuclear power UM might try to convince
: people that there was some residual radioactivity in electricity generated
: from nuclear power.
Might? I spent a couple of hours many years ago trying to convince a couple
people that electricity generated from a nuclear power plant was no more
radioactive than that from a coal or oil poweer plant. Trying to overcome
fear is incrdibly difficult.
--
Kenneth Ng: Post office: NJIT - CCCC, Newark New Jersey 07102
uucp !andromeda!galaxy!argus!ken *** NOT ken@bellcore.uucp ***
bitnet(prefered) ken@orion.bitnet or ken@orion.njit.edu
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Msg #: 1041 SKEP Subboard
From: GREG LEE Sent: 04-12-90 11:59
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:35
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee)
Date: 25 Mar 90 14:20:06 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii
Message-ID: <7080@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From article <28244@cup.portal.com>, by mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert
Thorson):
\... Ergo, green potatoes contain
\arsenic. Pointing out that arsenic is an element, hence a potato cannot
\manufacture arsenic, had no effect on this person. ...
It has an effect on me, but not a persuasive one. Potatoes cannot
contain elements -- this is carrying memes to extremes.
Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
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Msg #: 1042 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 04-12-90 11:59
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:35
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 25 Mar 90 22:53:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <4969aa98.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
pierce@ariane.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce) posts...
:In article <495e705b.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
Nelson) writes:
:
:> Those of you who believe conspiracy theories should take this lesson
:> to heart.
:
:I would appreciate a clarification on this last sentence. Does this
:mean "you who will believe any conspiracy theory", "you who believe
:that conspiracies exist", or ...
:
:The sentence seems to imply that you don't believe conspiracies exist
:(even though individuals and corporations are regularly convicted on
:charges of conspiracy) and that anyone who takes speculation about
:conspiracies seriously is paranoid and gullible.
My comments were directed at the gullible in order to show them
how easily one can construct a "conspiracy" out of a few suggestive
data points and thin air.
I think that many of the more persistent and popular conspiracy
theories are maintained by the gullible. Individuals and corporations
sometimes conspire to fix prices or trade on insider information,
or defraud the DoD or similar illegal things. But many of the more
popular conspiracies involve massive international or government
operations
which would require the silence of hundreds or thousands of people for
a very long time. I'm not convinced that conspiracies on that scale
can be kept secret for very long.
---Peter
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Msg #: 1043 SKEP Subboard
From: BARRY SHEIN Sent: 04-12-90 11:59
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:36
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Date: 26 Mar 90 05:02:17 GMT
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
Message-ID: <1990Mar26.050217.18074@world.std.com>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
I personally think the supposed power of urban myths is an urban myth.
No one ever believes them personally, it's always a friend, or a
friend of a friend.
I'm not even sure any urban myths have ever existed, maybe they all
just originate from Brunvend's books. Has anyone ever verified his
supposed research into these?
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | {xylogics,uunet}!world!bzs | bzs@world.std.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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Msg #: 1044 SKEP Subboard
From: JAMES PRESTON Sent: 04-12-90 12:00
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:37
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: jsp@key.COM (James Preston)
Date: 25 Mar 90 23:31:59 GMT
Organization: Key Computer Laboratories, Fremont
Message-ID: <1555@key.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <591@fsu.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes:
}In article eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric
}Iverson) writes:
}> Let's say for example
}> that I wanted to fool you into thinking I drove through your
}> cornfield. Given adequate technical skills, this could be
}> accomplished without the use of a car. But this does not mean that I
}> couldn't have done the same thing with a car as well.
}
}What's the point? Let's say I wanted to convince you that everything in
}the world is being controlled by Big Eyed Beans from Venus. If I had
}enough creativity, I might be able to do it, but that wouldn't prove that
}the world *wasn't* being controlled by Big Eyed Beans from Venus.
Yeah, that reminds me of the comedian (whose name escapes me at the moment,
but let's not have 2 dozen postings reminding me, ok?) who says that he woke
up this morning to discover that someone had stolen everything he owned. And
replaced them with exact duplicates. You can't prove that it didn't happen,
now can you?
--James Preston
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Msg #: 1045 SKEP Subboard
From: MARK ROBERT THORSON Sent: 04-12-90 12:00
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:39
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson)
Date: 25 Mar 90 23:00:04 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Message-ID: <28280@cup.portal.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Potatoes turn green when exposed to light. If the green were caused
by arsenic, the arsenic would also have to be present before the potato
turned green, because arsenic is an element. Chlorophyll is not an
element, hence chlorophyll can be manufactured by the potato when it
is exposed to light. (BTW, chlorophyll is not what makes the potato
poisonous.)
This is the full explanation I gave to the person who thought potatoes
were poisonous because of arsenic. I hadn't thought it necessary to
go into such detail on the net. My apologies for your confusion.
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Msg #: 1046 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 04-12-90 12:00
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:39
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 26 Mar 90 03:48:27 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1555@key.COM> jsp@key.COM (James Preston) writes:
> In article <591@fsu.scri.fsu.edu> pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
writes:
> }In article eiverson@nmsu.edu
(Eric
> }Iverson) writes:
> }> Let's say for example
> }> that I wanted to fool you into thinking I drove through your
> }> cornfield. Given adequate technical skills, this could be
> }> accomplished without the use of a car. But this does not mean that I
> }> couldn't have done the same thing with a car as well.
> }
> }What's the point? Let's say I wanted to convince you that everything in
> }the world is being controlled by Big Eyed Beans from Venus. If I had
> }enough creativity, I might be able to do it, but that wouldn't prove that
> }the world *wasn't* being controlled by Big Eyed Beans from Venus.
>
> Yeah, that reminds me of the comedian (whose name escapes me at the moment,
> but let's not have 2 dozen postings reminding me, ok?) who says that he
woke
> up this morning to discover that someone had stolen everything he owned.
And
> replaced them with exact duplicates. You can't prove that it didn't
happen,
> now can you?
It was Steven Wright. To further clarify my above posting, I was
trying to point out that this is the kind of proof that James Randi
seems to generate all the time. To my mind this kind of proof is
inadequate in that it only shows that there is a conventional way to
produce a certain event, not that no unconventional ways exist as
well. Face it, our technology is getting so advanced that the number
of things we *can't* simulate is getting smaller and smaller every
day. Video proof of a ride on a spaceship? Hell, I can watch star
trek for that. If Randi style proof is what we use to debunk things,
it's no wonder so many things are so easily debunked.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
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Msg #: 1047 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 04-12-90 12:01
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:41
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 26 Mar 90 06:05:21 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46775@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <28244@cup.portal.com> mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson)
writes:
[ very good discussion re Urban Legend stuff deleted ]
> For example, the
receptionist
>where I work firmly believes that green potatoes contain arsenic, something
>she was told by a teacher in elementary school. This fits, because of two
>successful memes which happen to be true: things which contain arsenic are
>often green, and green potatoes are poisonous. Ergo, green potatoes contain
>arsenic.
Just a note on them ol' green potatoes. The green on potatoes (you've seen
a bit of green on a potato chip, haven't you?) is sometimes known as
sun scald, and contains chlorophyll, which is green, but not poison. But
it also contains solanine, a glycoalkaloid. This is a poison, but is
in such a small quantity in that little green bit as to be homeopathic.
Now there's more of it in the leaves of the potato, a member of the
nightshade family, and if you really wanna get sick...
Doc B.
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Msg #: 1048 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 04-12-90 12:02
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:42
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 26 Mar 90 17:13:43 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46805@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
In article <1990Mar26.050217.18074@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:
>
>I personally think the supposed power of urban myths is an urban myth.
>
>No one ever believes them personally, it's always a friend, or a
>friend of a friend.
>
>I'm not even sure any urban myths have ever existed, maybe they all
>just originate from Brunvend's books. Has anyone ever verified his
>supposed research into these?
S'matter o' fact, I first encountered Urban Myth before it was called
Urban Myth. It was in 'motifs in folklore', and the one I remember
best is the ghostly girl hitchhiker on killed on prom night, and which,
this ol' book stated, had been repeated as a 'true' story in nearly every
state in the Union. As to real Urban Myth, I had the 'poisonous snake
in the dept. store dressing room' repeated to me as a 'true' story,
and it was sworn to have happened at the K-Mart in Asheville NC. And,
the Proctor & Gamble Satan Connection was repeated to me with enough
detail that I could track down the story and refute its source, on
the spot (they named names, forgetting for a moment the reason for
the FEOF, and I tracked down the Named people, who looked at me
quizically). Even with evidence in hand, I had trouble convincing
the story tellers that it was all a fake. Such is the power of the
myth. In point of fact, most of us know the Myth's from the Truth's.
But I have also, many times, found myself repeating a story which
has just too many shades of UMosity about it. Just about anybody
who ever repeats an unverified, interesting story is in danger of
helping to spread a UM.
On the other hand, there is the story of the Preacher
who heard about a man so full of sin that he coughed up three crows,
and so the Preacher decided to track the story back to the source.
After the usual (about three or four) iterations of story relators,
each time getting a little less remarkable, he reaches the wife
of the coughing sinner, who says, "Well, he did cough up something
that was as black as a crow". Gotta admire a skeptical Preacher!
Doctor boB.
PS. I have three votes on the story of the Epileptic Fellatrix:
2 - It's a myth
1 - Probably a myth but suspicious
Well, if it helps, I will certify that to the best of my knowledge,
it is a true story. Although there may have been some embellishments
of familiarity, in its essence, it is solid gold truth. So now,
what say you? How can you tell the difference 'tween UM and truth?
The polls are still open.
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Msg #: 1049 SKEP Subboard
From: THE FLOYDIAN SLIP Sent: 04-12-90 12:02
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:44
Re: THOSE BLEEDIN' FIELD CIRC
From: pfloyd@wpi.wpi.edu (The Floydian Slip)
Date: 26 Mar 90 15:34:39 GMT
Organization: Old Pink, Care of the Funny Farm
Message-ID: <10214@wpi.wpi.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
First off, a word to anyone who thinks that those field circles in south-
western Britain were made by a VTOL aircraft, such as a helicopter or even
a GR3 / AV-8B Harrier:
bull$#!+
The patterns are too intricate for a downward-directed jetwash to create.
Here is my theory:
England is always rumoured to be the place where magic abounds, hence
Stonhenge, Silbury Hill, and all the other stone circles in England,
Scotland,
Wales, and (I think) Ireland.
Most to all of these circles and barrows are located in a pattern.
Most of them, such as Stonehenge and others on or near the Salisbury Plains
are believed to be located on leyline intersections.
A leyline is a line of power in the earth's body, and where two or
more
of them meet is called a leyline nexus. This nexus is a point where great
power
lies. The more leylines at a nexus, the greater the power.
Where do the circles come into play?
If they did some investigating, they could probably find the true
pattern of these circles, and compare the pattern to that of the layout
of the leylines.
The circles could lie on unknown nexi (is that the plural for
nexus?),
and be created by a surge of leyline power.
This is just my theory.
**************************************************************
* *
* Pfloyd * "Ein, zwei, drei, uggah" *
* * "Big man, pig man...." *
* wpi.wpi.edu * "And if the band you're in *
* * starts playing different *
* ---/\+++ * tunes *
* * I'll see you on the *
* WPI: * dark side of the moon" *
* Where men are men * "in the bottom of our *
* Women are scarce * hearts we felt the *
* And sheep are nervous * final cut" *
* *
**************************************************************
--- ConfMail V3.3
* Origin: NCFCC SF, CA / fidogate.fidonet.org (1:125/777)
Msg #: 1050 SKEP Subboard
From: JIM GALASYN Sent: 04-12-90 12:02
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:46
Re: ARE YOU YETI? (WAS RE: P
From: jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn)
Date: 23 Mar 90 17:21:54 GMT
Organization: The Boeing Co., BCA FSL, Seattle, WA
Message-ID: <1013@tahoma.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Doctor BoB writes:
>And interestingly enough, now that I think about it, it was
>old flawed Science that came up with the Uncertainty Principle,
>Godel's Theorem, and so on. Hmmmn? Science looks at itself,
>finds its own shortcomings, and moves forward. And it does
>so with and without the help of the mass of scientists, techs,
>theorists, arm-chair inventors, and entrepaneurs. The only
>time it seems to fail miserably is when it is put into the
>hands of government and legislated. Science does not like
>being tied down.
Now Doctor BoB, no self-disrespecting SubG would interpret the Uncertainty
Principle and Godel's Theorem to be indications that we know anything; quite
the opposite, in fact-no-fact. Perhaps you've not actually WHIFF-READ the
word of the Dobbs. If you had, then you would know for uncertain that
"forward" is an entirely arbitrary direction, defined by the culture of sci-
entists and the forces that manipulate them, e.g. the econo-political forces
you mention, who are in turn controlled by the Con.
A skeptic must question the utility of a method of inquiry that spends
400 years going "forward" only to "discover": "Hey, we don't know anything
for sure, and we can't prove everything." Any half-decent mystical
tradition
starts with these as AXIOMS, for "Bob's" sake.
By "God's" Third Leg, you'd think these humans didn't know what religion was
FOR. You'll find that if you believe everything and nothing SIMULTANEOUSLY,
you'll be thrilled by the sheer terror of it all! Hang ten on the rifts of
spacetime!
> "A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place"
True, but recall that "Bob" is the luckiest fool alive, and money just
flows toward him because of his "deal" with JHVH-1. He's dumber than you
and yet wealthy beyond any mere human's imagination. This can work for you,
too. Quit your job! Slack off!
.
DEATH . ..
. . . You'll PAY to know what you really
. . . . think.
. .. . . . . -"Bob"
. . . . . ..
. . . . . . .
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1051 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 04-12-90 12:03
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:47
Re: RE FORTEANA SURVEY
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 26 Mar 90 14:45:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <496cfe49.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson) posts...
> OK skeptics, quiz time. Who believes in Forteana? Cryptozoology?
>Ooparts? Not that your belief either prooves or disproves, I just
>wanna know. Terms defined below:
What do you mean "believe in"? Do you mean do I believe crypto-
zoology exists or do you mean do I believe that the subject matter
it studies exists?
>Forteana: Anomolous natural phenomena associated with the late
>Charles Forte. Includes: fish falls, blood red rain, ice falls, live frogs
>embedded in rocks and other such things
Not familiar with this.
>Cryptozoology: The search for animals such as Nessie and the
>Abominable Snowman. Also includes dinosaurs in Africa and Bigfoot.
Well, new species of insects, marine animals, and small mammals are
being discovered all the time. But the kinds of things you are talking
about here are large and different enough from anything else to
suggest to me that they or their remains would have been discovered
long ago if they actually existed. So I think that these things
are mainly the product of the local tourist industries.
>Ooparts: Technology and ancient civilization shouldn't have had, but
>did. You can include Mayan temples, Easter Island, and the Nazca
>lines in here as well. Did the ancients have alien help?
I haven't seen any evidence that any of these cultures had technology
they "shouldn't have had" so I'm not sure what the issue is here.
---Peter
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1052 SKEP Subboard
From: GREG LEE Sent: 04-12-90 12:03
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:49
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee)
Date: 26 Mar 90 15:24:17 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii
Message-ID: <7084@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From article <28280@cup.portal.com>, by mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert
Thorson):
>Potatoes turn green when exposed to light. If the green were caused
>by arsenic, the arsenic would also have to be present before the potato
>turned green, because arsenic is an element. ...
But it wouldn't have to be poisonous before the potato turned green,
because elements have different effects on us depending on how they
are compounded.
>This is the full explanation I gave to the person who thought potatoes
>were poisonous because of arsenic.
And good for her if she wasn't convinced. Your explanation is just as
good an example of reasoning by memic association as the others
you mentioned.
Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1053 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 04-12-90 12:03
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:49
Re: (R)ARE YOU YETI? (WAS RE
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 26 Mar 90 17:41:16 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46809@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1013@tahoma.UUCP> jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn) writes:
>
>Doctor BoB writes:
First, that's boB -
>
>>old flawed Science that came up with the Uncertainty Principle,
>>Godel's Theorem, and so on. Hmmmn? Science looks at itself,
>>finds its own shortcomings, and moves forward. And it does
^^^^^^^
>
> .... you would know for uncertain that
>"forward" is an entirely arbitrary direction, defined by the culture of sci-
>entists and the forces that manipulate them, e.g. the econo-political forces
>you mention ...
No, forward is not a direction at all, or at least a particular direction.
At least as I use it here. It "moves forward" means that it doesn't sit
there admiring itself and how well it has explained Simply Everything.
When a 1890's scientist stood up and said that we had reached the
ultimate pool of knowledge in physics, and were not likely to learn
anything new, and that the job of future "physicists" would be only
to mop up the little details, science did not quit. If all the
governments in the world had attempted to suppress it, science would
not quit. And even when the great scientists say we have arrived,
science does not quit. It moves forward. Or maybe I should simply
say, It Moves.
>
>A skeptic must question the utility of a method of inquiry that spends
>400 years going "forward" only to "discover": "Hey, we don't know anything
>for sure, and we can't prove everything." Any half-decent mystical
tradition
>starts with these as AXIOMS, for "Bob's" sake.
An axiom is a dogma, and a proof is, well, a proof. And isn't it much
more comforting to Know, to Really Know, that we can't prove everything,
rather than just have the village witchdoctor say, "Trust me, I know
what I'm talking about." Besides which, Godel's Theorem doesn't say
that we can't prove everything; mathematically speaking at least. It
says that we can't prove all true things, which is just a little
different. It is actually a little stronger than that. It says we
can prove ALL true things if we are willing to prove a few false things
as well. I.E. whaddyawant? Consistency or Completeness. It is only
the small minded, short sighted pencil pushers who decided that the
only way to go was Consistencey and Incompleteness, rather than
Inconsistency and Completeness.
>
>> "A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place"
>
>True, but recall that "Bob" is the luckiest fool alive, and money just
True also, but your Bob is just a fulsome settling, and so his fables
are indeed, full of sound and fury, but signify ......?
El boBerto - Vayo con Queso, mis amigos
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1054 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 04-12-90 12:44
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 11:51
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 26 Mar 90 17:13:43 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46805@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
In article <1990Mar26.050217.18074@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:
>
>I personally think the supposed power of urban myths is an urban myth.
>
>No one ever believes them personally, it's always a friend, or a
>friend of a friend.
>
>I'm not even sure any urban myths have ever existed, maybe they all
>just originate from Brunvend's books. Has anyone ever verified his
>supposed research into these?
S'matter o' fact, I first encountered Urban Myth before it was called
Urban Myth. It was in 'motifs in folklore', and the one I remember
best is the ghostly girl hitchhiker on killed on prom night, and which,
this ol' book stated, had been repeated as a 'true' story in nearly every
state in the Union. As to real Urban Myth, I had the 'poisonous snake
in the dept. store dressing room' repeated to me as a 'true' story,
and it was sworn to have happened at the K-Mart in Asheville NC. And,
the Proctor & Gamble Satan Connection was repeated to me with enough
detail that I could track down the story and refute its source, on
the spot (they named names, forgetting for a moment the reason for
the FEOF, and I tracked down the Named people, who looked at me
quizically). Even with evidence in hand, I had trouble convincing
the story tellers that it was all a fake. Such is the power of the
myth. In point of fact, most of us know the Myth's from the Truth's.
But I have also, many times, found myself repeating a story which
has just too many shades of UMosity about it. Just about anybody
who ever repeats an unverified, interesting story is in danger of
helping to spread a UM.
On the other hand, there is the story of the Preacher
who heard about a man so full of sin that he coughed up three crows,
and so the Preacher decided to track the story back to the source.
After the usual (about three or four) iterations of story relators,
each time getting a little less remarkable, he reaches the wife
of the coughing sinner, who says, "Well, he did cough up something
that was as black as a crow". Gotta admire a skeptical Preacher!
Doctor boB.
PS. I have three votes on the story of the Epileptic Fellatrix:
2 - It's a myth
1 - Probably a myth but suspicious
Well, if it helps, I will certify that to the best of my knowledge,
it is a true story. Although there may have been some embellishments
of familiarity, in its essence, it is solid gold truth. So now,
what say you? How can you tell the difference 'tween UM and truth?
The polls are still open.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1055 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 04-12-90 12:44
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 22:57
Re: RE FORTEANA SURVEY
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 26 Mar 90 14:45:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <496cfe49.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson) posts...
> OK skeptics, quiz time. Who believes in Forteana? Cryptozoology?
>Ooparts? Not that your belief either prooves or disproves, I just
>wanna know. Terms defined below:
What do you mean "believe in"? Do you mean do I believe crypto-
zoology exists or do you mean do I believe that the subject matter
it studies exists?
>Forteana: Anomolous natural phenomena associated with the late
>Charles Forte. Includes: fish falls, blood red rain, ice falls, live frogs
>embedded in rocks and other such things
Not familiar with this.
>Cryptozoology: The search for animals such as Nessie and the
>Abominable Snowman. Also includes dinosaurs in Africa and Bigfoot.
Well, new species of insects, marine animals, and small mammals are
being discovered all the time. But the kinds of things you are talking
about here are large and different enough from anything else to
suggest to me that they or their remains would have been discovered
long ago if they actually existed. So I think that these things
are mainly the product of the local tourist industries.
>Ooparts: Technology and ancient civilization shouldn't have had, but
>did. You can include Mayan temples, Easter Island, and the Nazca
>lines in here as well. Did the ancients have alien help?
I haven't seen any evidence that any of these cultures had technology
they "shouldn't have had" so I'm not sure what the issue is here.
---Peter
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1056 SKEP Subboard
From: GREG LEE Sent: 04-12-90 12:44
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-16-90 18:55
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee)
Date: 26 Mar 90 15:24:17 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii
Message-ID: <7084@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From article <28280@cup.portal.com>, by mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert
Thorson):
>Potatoes turn green when exposed to light. If the green were caused
>by arsenic, the arsenic would also have to be present before the potato
>turned green, because arsenic is an element. ...
But it wouldn't have to be poisonous before the potato turned green,
because elements have different effects on us depending on how they
are compounded.
>This is the full explanation I gave to the person who thought potatoes
>were poisonous because of arsenic.
And good for her if she wasn't convinced. Your explanation is just as
good an example of reasoning by memic association as the others
you mentioned.
Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1057 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 04-12-90 12:44
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-16-90 18:56
Re: (R)ARE YOU YETI? (WAS RE
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 26 Mar 90 17:41:16 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <46809@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1013@tahoma.UUCP> jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn) writes:
>
>Doctor BoB writes:
First, that's boB -
>
>>old flawed Science that came up with the Uncertainty Principle,
>>Godel's Theorem, and so on. Hmmmn? Science looks at itself,
>>finds its own shortcomings, and moves forward. And it does
^^^^^^^
>
> .... you would know for uncertain that
>"forward" is an entirely arbitrary direction, defined by the culture of sci-
>entists and the forces that manipulate them, e.g. the econo-political forces
>you mention ...
No, forward is not a direction at all, or at least a particular direction.
At least as I use it here. It "moves forward" means that it doesn't sit
there admiring itself and how well it has explained Simply Everything.
When a 1890's scientist stood up and said that we had reached the
ultimate pool of knowledge in physics, and were not likely to learn
anything new, and that the job of future "physicists" would be only
to mop up the little details, science did not quit. If all the
governments in the world had attempted to suppress it, science would
not quit. And even when the great scientists say we have arrived,
science does not quit. It moves forward. Or maybe I should simply
say, It Moves.
>
>A skeptic must question the utility of a method of inquiry that spends
>400 years going "forward" only to "discover": "Hey, we don't know anything
>for sure, and we can't prove everything." Any half-decent mystical
tradition
>starts with these as AXIOMS, for "Bob's" sake.
An axiom is a dogma, and a proof is, well, a proof. And isn't it much
more comforting to Know, to Really Know, that we can't prove everything,
rather than just have the village witchdoctor say, "Trust me, I know
what I'm talking about." Besides which, Godel's Theorem doesn't say
that we can't prove everything; mathematically speaking at least. It
says that we can't prove all true things, which is just a little
different. It is actually a little stronger than that. It says we
can prove ALL true things if we are willing to prove a few false things
as well. I.E. whaddyawant? Consistency or Completeness. It is only
the small minded, short sighted pencil pushers who decided that the
only way to go was Consistencey and Incompleteness, rather than
Inconsistency and Completeness.
>
>> "A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place"
>
>True, but recall that "Bob" is the luckiest fool alive, and money just
True also, but your Bob is just a fulsome settling, and so his fables
are indeed, full of sound and fury, but signify ......?
El boBerto - Vayo con Queso, mis amigos
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1058 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 04-12-90 12:45
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-16-90 18:56
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 26 Mar 90 18:43:49 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
In article <1990Mar26.050217.18074@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:
> I'm not even sure any urban myths have ever existed, maybe they all
> just originate from Brunvend's books. Has anyone ever verified his
> supposed research into these?
Why is it *supposed* research? You've already stacked the deck by
putting his work in a derrogatory context. Just because he's "only" a
folklore expert doesn't mean he can't do research. The fact is that
urban legends can be well documented in this country well before
Brundvand became interested in them. If you're suggesting that he
either made them up or somehow coached his subjects, then you are
nothing but a paranoid fool....or an anal retentive skeptic (take your
pick.)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1059 SKEP Subboard
From: MARY SHAFER (OFV Sent: 04-12-90 12:45
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:43
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer (OFV))
Date: 26 Mar 90 18:41:57 GMT
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <7080@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg
Lee) writes:
From article <28244@cup.portal.com>, by mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert
Thorson):
\... Ergo, green potatoes contain
\arsenic. Pointing out that arsenic is an element, hence a potato cannot
\manufacture arsenic, had no effect on this person. ...
It has an effect on me, but not a persuasive one. Potatoes cannot
contain elements -- this is carrying memes to extremes.
What? Eveything contains elements. What do you think things are made
of? The four humors?
Potatoes contain molecules. Molecules are made of elements. Potatoes
contain elements.
Perhaps you meant something different?
--
Mary Shafer shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov or
ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer
NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
Of course I don't speak for NASA
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1060 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 04-12-90 12:45
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:44
Re: (R)RE FORTEANA SURVEY
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 26 Mar 90 19:11:10 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <496cfe49.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
Nelson) writes:
> > OK skeptics, quiz time. Who believes in Forteana? Cryptozoology?
> >Ooparts? Not that your belief either prooves or disproves, I just
> >wanna know. Terms defined below:
>
> What do you mean "believe in"? Do you mean do I believe crypto-
> zoology exists or do you mean do I believe that the subject matter
> it studies exists?
Of course I don't mean "do you believe the discipline cryptozoology
exists." I'm taking about the subject matter it studies. This is
analogous to asking "do you believe in dowsing" or "do you believe in
numerology." Obviously the discipline exists. But does it get
results? God, you people can be so literal!
> >Ooparts: Technology and ancient civilization shouldn't have had, but
> >did. You can include Mayan temples, Easter Island, and the Nazca
> >lines in here as well. Did the ancients have alien help?
>
> I haven't seen any evidence that any of these cultures had technology
> they "shouldn't have had" so I'm not sure what the issue is here.
One example is archeological evidence that the early Tigris and
Euphrates civilization in what is now Iran had electroplating. Nobody
knows how they got it, as civilizations at their level were'nt
"supposed" to have that level of technology. It proceeded to
disappear, only to be "discovered" centuries later by somebody else.
You can also include myths that seem to have a technological origin,
like Ezekial's (sp.) wheel. Another story along these lines is the
Hindu one about the group of people who came down from the sky and set
up a camp. Later there was a big explosion and crops would not grow
where it occured. Evidence of an atomic explosion? If not, why would
they tell such a story?
There is also evidence of south sea islands with primitive roads or
perhaps landing strips. What's especially weird is one road that
stops at the edge of one island and directly picks up at the edge of
another island hundreds of miles away, but in the path of where the
road pointed. Why would primitve cultures do such things? Why do so
many similar legends spring up in otherwise widely disparate cultures?
What do you think?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1061 SKEP Subboard
From: BOBMR. WONDERFUL DAINAUSKI Sent: 04-12-90 12:51
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:45
Re: SOVIET PSYCHIC :-)
From: RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu (BobMr. Wonderful Dainauski)
Date: 27 Mar 90 03:04:00 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
Message-ID: <90085.220400RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,rec.humor
The following item ran in Newsday:
E. FRENKEL, A SOVIET "psychic healer and mentalist," felt he had
gathered the "psychic-biological power" to stop a speeding train,
so he stepped in front of one to prove it.
"First I stopped a bicycle, cars, and a streetcar," wrote Frenkel.
"Now I'm going to stop a train. Only in extraordinary conditions
of a direct threat to my organism will all my reserves be called
into action."
Frenkel jumped in front of a train near the city of Astrakhan
"with his arms raised, his head lowered, and his body tensed."
The train ran over and killed him.
Bob Dainauski
RAD101@psuvm.psu.edu
(717) 948-6426
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1062 SKEP Subboard
From: T R HALL Sent: 04-12-90 12:52
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:46
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: trh@atari.UUCP (T R Hall)
Date: 27 Mar 90 01:51:39 GMT
Organization: Atari Corp., Sunnyvale, CA
Message-ID: <2092@atari.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
> Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
>
> eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
> Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
> New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
Fine, you just don't _want_ to hear that there are perfectly normal,
mundane and _boring_ reasons for the effects you see.
I admit that the "para/super-normal" explantations are a lot more
fun, but that doesn't mean that they have any objective reality. If it's
*subjective* reality you want, study psychology.
If you insist that the "paranormal" is a _possible_ explanation,
I can agree with you. _Anything_ can be a _*possible*_ explanation. But
don't try to say the it is _the_ explanation without a bit more solid,
reproducible evidence.
trh
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Msg #: 1063 SKEP Subboard
From: MARK ISAAK Sent: 04-12-90 12:52
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:47
Re: LOOKING AT A WATCH (WAS:
From: isaak@imagen.UUCP (Mark Isaak)
Date: 26 Mar 90 21:19:15 GMT
Organization: Imagen Corp., Santa Clara CA
Message-ID: <9677@imagen.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
I had an experience similar to Eric Iverson's. When I first got my watch,
it seemed that the display would quite often have "interesting" patterns
(like 11:11:11, 12:34:56, or 3:23:23) when I glanced at it. I seldom
notice such patterns now. The likely explanation is this: I looked at
my watch a lot more when it was new because it was unfamiliar. This means
I saw the interesting patterns more often. I saw plenty of uninteresting
patterns, too, but I didn't pay as much attention to them and so quicky
forgot them, making the interesting ones seem disproportional.
--
Mark Isaak {decwrl,sun}!imagen!isaak or imagen!isaak@decwrl.dec.com
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." - Nietzsche
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Msg #: 1064 SKEP Subboard
From: EDECK@AV80R.DEC.COM Sent: 04-12-90 12:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:48
Re: (R)RE FORTEANA SURVEY
From: edeck@av80r.dec.com
Date: 27 Mar 90 13:48:35 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Message-ID: <9645@shlump.nac.dec.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <496cfe49.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
Nelson) writes:
In article , eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric
Iverson) writes...
(I _think_ the attribution is right...)
>> > OK skeptics, quiz time. Who believes in Forteana? Cryptozoology?
>> >Ooparts? Not that your belief either prooves or disproves, I just
>> >wanna know. Terms defined below:
>> >Ooparts: Technology and ancient civilization shouldn't have had, but
>> >did. You can include Mayan temples, Easter Island, and the Nazca
>> >lines in here as well. Did the ancients have alien help?
>>
>> I haven't seen any evidence that any of these cultures had technology
>> they "shouldn't have had" so I'm not sure what the issue is here.
>
>One example is archeological evidence that the early Tigris and
>Euphrates civilization in what is now Iran had electroplating. Nobody
>knows how they got it, as civilizations at their level were'nt
>"supposed" to have that level of technology. It proceeded to
>disappear, only to be "discovered" centuries later by somebody else.
Hell, the Mayans had "electroplating"--archeologists have recovered plated
objects from a well, according to a _Scientific American_ article a few
years ago. They used a combination of dipping and selective etching to
deposit a gold coating. 'Course, it was _electrochemical_ plating, and
didn't imply that the Mayans had electicity. I am told that there are
Near Eastern objects that consist of a huge jar with dissimilar metals
that _could_ generate electricity if they were filled with seawater...
I'd have to see one, or a reference to a writeup in an refereed journal
before I'd believe it.
L
I
N
E
E
A
T
E
R
F
O
O
D
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
>Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
>
>eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
>Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
>New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
Ed Eck
edeck@av8or.dec.com
--or--...!decwrl!est.dec.com!edeck
--or--edeck%est.dec@decwrl.dec.com
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1065 SKEP Subboard
From: CHRIS STASSEN Sent: 04-12-90 12:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:50
Re: "OOPARTS": BATTERIES AND
From: stassen@netcom.UUCP (Chris Stassen)
Date: 27 Mar 90 15:50:10 GMT
Organization: The Lion's Den, San Jose
Message-ID: <10037@netcom.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
The "Baghdad batteries" do exist. Their use is unknown, but such crude
objects were only capable of generating about 1/2 volt. (See Story,
Ronald, _The Space-Gods Revealed: A Close Look at the Theories of Erich
von Daniken_, New York: Harper & Row, 1976, p. 96.) This is sufficient
to electroplate silver to copper, which is their suspected use. [Remember,
we don't even know for sure that they _were_ used as batteries!] This is
most likely simply a "discovery before its time" - similar to the Greek
discovery of the principles behind the steam engine. I'd expect friendly
aliens to clue the natives in to a lot more about the utility of
electricity than how to construct crude, weak batteries suitable only
for electroplating.
Easter Island is less mysterious yet. Descendants of the people that lived
on the island when the statues were erected perpetuate an oral tradition
which describes how the statues were made, transported, and erected - even
knowing the songs and dances accompanying these acts. Space men are not
mentioned in the traditions. The statues were constructed continually from
about 400 to 1700 AD - much too late for Von Daniken's proposed space visit
timetable. Thor Heyerdahl had a crew of six men cut most of the coutours
of a medium-sized (15') statue in three days (but it would have taken about
a year to complete it). They used only stone picks (which are found by the
thousands in the soft volcanic rock quarries where the statues originated).
Another medium-sized statue was moved by 180 natives (the island's
population probably peaked at about three thousand). The statue was placed
on a sledge made from a split tree trunk, and simply dragged from the
quarry to its platform (some of the larger statues show signs of being
rolled on logs). Twelve men erected a thirty-ton statue in eighteen days,
using only rocks, wood poles, and ropes - onto a twelve-foot-high platform.
Von Daniken claims that no trees grow on Easter Island - which is currently
true. But there were trees growing there when the Europeans discovered the
island in the 1700s, and pollen counts of sediments on the island show that
it was once heavily forested. Rocks, ropes, and wood are the only tools
and technology required to account for the Easter Island statues.
Actually, I'm surprised Eric didn't mention the Piri Re'is map. It is
one of Von D.'s favorites, and the one that always intrigued me the most
(until I did some research, that is).
Reference of interest:
Stiebing, William H.: _Ancient Astronauts, Cosmic Collisions, and Other
Popular Theories About Man's Past_, New York: Prometheus, 1984.
--
Chris Stassen stassen@netcom.UUCP
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Msg #: 1066 SKEP Subboard
From: SULLIVAN Sent: 04-12-90 12:53
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:51
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
Date: 26 Mar 90 14:39:17 GMT
Message-ID: <1414@nih-csl.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article , eiverson@nmsu.edu
(Eric Iverson) writes:
|>OK, this is getting tiresome, but here goes. I never said that
|>equinoxes caused heightened time sensitivity. I merely said that it
|>was "interesting" that the two occured together for me. When somebody
|>asked *why* it was interesting, I ventured a guess. Regarding how the
|>body would know where the earth was in its orbit: try the seasons,
|>time of sunrise, slight differences in gravitation, day length. Geez,
|>not much to go on. Again, I'm just looking for correlations at this
|>point. Not causality. Just because women's skirt lengths are an
|>indicator of stock market prices doesn't mean one causes the other.
|>However, it is an interesting correlation that may tell us something.
Ok, but, so what... I can throw a heads on a coin ten times
in a row, then not be able to repeat it for some time. It
is interesting that it occured but is not outside the normal
possibility. Now, if I looked around at the time it happened
and noticed my dog eating his food would there be a reason to
draw a correlation? But, if every time he ate his food I noticed
I could predictably throw a heads on every coin flip, then I'd
have a correlation. What I see in you observations was to
see a rare event (seeing you watch change +/- 1 second) and then
looked around for a correlation, something to connect to the
rare event. I guess I'm wondering why you would look for something,
anything to correlate with the rare event.
[me]
|>> What I see you doing with your observations is what many people
|>> do every day, take two unusual events and make a connection. I've
|>> seen people who blamed hurricanes and tornados on the Apollo
|>> astronauts walking on the moon! Now, isn't it quite possible,
|>> given our knowlege of physics, that the change in the moon's
|>> gravitational field caused by additional mass on the moon
|>> could cause the strange weather we have been seeing?
|>
|>Well, given that weather is a non-linear unpredictable phenomenon, very
|>slight anomalies like the one you mentioned may have much larger
|>impact on it than we may think. However, it is difficult to isolate the
|>ones that do and don't have an effect. So, to answer your question,
|>maybe. In addition, I'm guessing the brain is somewhat non-linear as
|>well. So any number of things could have be partially responsible for
|>my experiences. Unfortunately, just because I can't find a concrete
|>cause-and-effect relationship, people like you seem to think I'm
|>talking about the paranormal or, worse yet, ESP. I defy you to find a
|>strict cause-and-effect for why it rained at X o'clock and not 5
|>minutes earlier. Non-linear systems don't easily lend themselves to
|>that sort of thing.
Exactly... Maybe I'm missing something or reading more into
your postings than is there but I could have sworn that you were
making connections between your unusual ability to see your
watch change with in a second, and the equinox that was occuring at
the time of the event. Of course I cannot find a strict cause and
effect realltionship for why it rained at X o'clock. That has
been the reason for my responses.
Two rare or unusual events do not have to be related. I see
you however at the least noting the two occurances and saying
that it was interesting that they occured together, and at most
drawing a direct connection (dousing).
|>Chronobiology pointing to the supernatural? Predicting the future?
|>This is just another example of *your* fixation on this subject. I've
|>said from the beginning that I'll except any solution that fits the
|>facts in a maximally simple, plausible manner. To me, the paranormal
|>is just something that hasn't been explained yet. It doesn't
|>necessarily have to violate physical laws. Besides, can you honestly
|>say we know all the physical laws in the universe? I'll admit, things
|>are pretty well explained....except of course for the unified field
|>theory and fusion and Bell's Theorem effects and any other number of
|>things. How about a little humility for God's sake? We don't know
|>all the answers.....
No we don't, but we are not completely ignorant as well. We
know enough to test such cause and effect occurances in a
scientific way before making a connection. When they are
shown to be unconnected and random relative to each other, we
take it for being unconnected.
[me]
|>> BTW, I didn't respond to the response you gave me a week
|>> ago because I didn't want to get into diagnosing a health problem
|>> over the net, especially when I am not an MD or a specialist
|>> in the health field. But, if a friend of mine was seeing ghosts
|>> and apparitions frequently, I would put supernatural phenomenon
|>> last on my list of possibilities and the persons health first.
|>> Just as you cannot absolutely rule out unknown phenomenon, you
|>> certainly cannot ignore the other more likely possibilities that
|>> have a basis in reality.
|>
|>Oh, and I suppose you have case histories of otherwise healthy,
|>rational people who nonetheless had a medical basis for their visions?
|>Your's is just a variation of the response throughout history whenever
|>people saw something that didn't "fit in": they must be sick or crazy.
|>Well this person is neither. No ear infections, no psychological
|>problems, no particular stake in seeing these things in the first
|>place. Really, I expected more from you. I might understand if you
|>said she had mistakenly seen something else, but to infer that she may
|>be ill is pathetic. Again, for those of you who've only heard this 20
|>or so times: The apparations are site specific. If this
|>were delusion or auto-suggestion or illness, there most likely would
|>not be a geographical component to the experience. It would seem to
|>me that if you see the same set of strangers in the same set of
|>places, while other places remain uninhabited, that something other
|>than delusion is going on. What's your next explanation? Hidden
|>slide projectors?
Interesting response. To suggest a medical reason for seeing
ghosts is "pathetic" but suggesting that what she saw was
real in some paranormal way is not. My point was not to diagnose
the person, it was to show that you show a bias to accept random
events occuring together as evidence for a connection.
I and others have suggested ways your
friend could get information to form a dream from unconscious
suggestion or clues within the house itself. I find your friends
experiences interesting, but there are many natural reason that
your observations were seen. As I said, the paranormal, though
not absent from my list, is way down there. Why, when you cannot
come up with a rational explanation for an unusual event, do you
not consider that maybe you are not privi to all the information
involved with the event?
Jim Sullivan
sullivan@alw.nih.gov
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1067 SKEP Subboard
From: MITCH WAGNER Sent: 04-12-90 12:54
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:56
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: wagner@utoday.UUCP (Mitch Wagner)
Date: 27 Mar 90 14:01:15 GMT
Organization: UNIX Today!, Manhasset, NY
Message-ID: <1396@utoday.UUCP>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
In article <1990Mar26.050217.18074@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:
>
>I personally think the supposed power of urban myths is an urban myth.
>
>No one ever believes them personally, it's always a friend, or a
>friend of a friend.
>
>I'm not even sure any urban myths have ever existed, maybe they all
>just originate from Brunvend's books. Has anyone ever verified his
>supposed research into these?
Oh, I've read one or two of Brunvend's books, and I'd heard one or
two of the myths in them, and friends of mine have heard one or
two others. I'm pretty confident that his research is legit; that these
really are stories that are going around.
As to how much power the stories have to affect people's behavior, that
I don't know.
--
Mitch
wagner@utoday.UUCP
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Msg #: 1068 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 04-12-90 12:54
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:57
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 27 Mar 90 16:15:33 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2092@atari.UUCP> trh@atari.UUCP (T R Hall) writes:
> Fine, you just don't _want_ to hear that there are perfectly normal,
> mundane and _boring_ reasons for the effects you see.
>
> I admit that the "para/super-normal" explantations are a lot more
> fun, but that doesn't mean that they have any objective reality. If it's
> *subjective* reality you want, study psychology.
>
> If you insist that the "paranormal" is a _possible_ explanation,
> I can agree with you. _Anything_ can be a _*possible*_ explanation. But
> don't try to say the it is _the_ explanation without a bit more solid,
> reproducible evidence.
OK, now I'm *really* getting tired of this. All I've been trying to
point out is that we just *might* not know everything there is to know
about the universe. Is this such a great leap of logic? As a result,
anything that falls outside of our current model of reality can be
called paranormal due to the fact that we have yet to incorporate it
into our understanding. Contrary to popular belief, this does not
mean that we are only left with things that happen regularly but just can't
be explained. It is entirely possible that we don't even know how to
make these "paranormal" occurences happen in the first place.
The history of science has shown that new ideas normally take about 70
years to be adopted. This is because it takes that long for all the
old scientists to die off. Imagine explaining Bell's Theorem to
Newton. He'd probably look at you like you were insane. Even if you
had proof, he'd probably find a way to reject it since "the universe
doesn't work that way." Remember Einstein's "God doesn't play dice
with the universe"? Well turns out God does.
Unlike some of you out there, I try to have a bit of humility and
realize that my current level of understanding most likely will not
adequately explain everything that I encounter (even given infinite
time to explain it.) Likewise, I feel that most current explanations
of paranormal phenomena reflect our limited level of understanding and
are most likely only partially true (if at all). I've gotten pretty
sick of how some of you rationalize, prejudge, and sometimes outright
ignore an anomaly all in the service of "objectivity." By sweeping
the problem under the rug through intolerance and derision, you do
solve it in a manner of speaking. But I don't see how this gains you
anything other than a more safe secure cocoon in which your brain can
slumber.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1069 SKEP Subboard
From: BILL JEFFERYS Sent: 04-12-90 12:54
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 17:59
Re: (R)THE FOAF CONSPIRACY
From: bill@ut-emx.UUCP (Bill Jefferys)
Date: 27 Mar 90 17:53:55 GMT
Organization: UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <26998@ut-emx.UUCP>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
In article <1990Mar26.050217.18074@world.std.com> bzs@world.std.com (Barry
Shein) writes:
#
#I personally think the supposed power of urban myths is an urban myth.
#
#No one ever believes them personally, it's always a friend, or a
#friend of a friend.
#
#I'm not even sure any urban myths have ever existed, maybe they all
#just originate from Brunvend's books. Has anyone ever verified his
#supposed research into these?
I can personally testify that I heard the one about the lady
with the roach nest in her hair in the 1950s, long before
Brunvand wrote it up. Beehive hairdos were the rage then.
My sister thought it was gross.
I cannot testify as to whether the story ever happened in fact.
My sister said she heard it from a friend :-)
Bill Jefferys
--
If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your kill file
--Robert Firth
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Msg #: 1070 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 04-12-90 12:56
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:00
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 27 Mar 90 18:48:58 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1414@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
writes:
Ok, but, so what... I can throw a heads on a coin ten times
in a row, then not be able to repeat it for some time. It
is interesting that it occured but is not outside the normal
possibility. Now, if I looked around at the time it happened
and noticed my dog eating his food would there be a reason to
draw a correlation? But, if every time he ate his food I noticed
I could predictably throw a heads on every coin flip, then I'd
have a correlation. What I see in you observations was to
see a rare event (seeing you watch change +/- 1 second) and then
looked around for a correlation, something to connect to the
rare event. I guess I'm wondering why you would look for
something,
anything to correlate with the rare event.
Fine, you win. Now shut up about my watch already.... I'm sure it's
all my imagination, and even if it isn't I don't have the data to
support it. Case closed.
*stuff about ghosts being a medical problem*
|>Oh, and I suppose you have case histories of otherwise healthy,
|>rational people who nonetheless had a medical basis for their visions?
|>Your's is just a variation of the response throughout history whenever
|>people saw something that didn't "fit in": they must be sick or crazy.
|>Well this person is neither. No ear infections, no psychological
|>problems, no particular stake in seeing these things in the first
|>place. Really, I expected more from you. I might understand if you
|>said she had mistakenly seen something else, but to infer that she may
|>be ill is pathetic. Again, for those of you who've only heard this 20
|>or so times: The apparations are site specific. If this
|>were delusion or auto-suggestion or illness, there most likely would
|>not be a geographical component to the experience. It would seem to
|>me that if you see the same set of strangers in the same set of
|>places, while other places remain uninhabited, that something other
|>than delusion is going on. What's your next explanation? Hidden
|>slide projectors?
Interesting response. To suggest a medical reason for seeing
ghosts is "pathetic" but suggesting that what she saw was
real in some paranormal way is not. My point was not to diagnose
the person, it was to show that you show a bias to accept random
events occuring together as evidence for a connection.
Hmmm.... seeing the same apparition over and over again is a random
event. I suppose you only "just happen" to wake up every morning too.
If so, you have a peculiar definition of what constitutes randomness.
It's really amazing to see you try to squirm out of this one. You
can't seem to accept the fact that this a regularly occuring,
geographically specific, replicatable phenomena. The only problem is
that we have to take her word that she actually see's what she claims
to. It even has a physical component of sorts as it never seems to
happen when she has a glass of water at bedside. (this is apparantly
an old folk remedy) After she started keeping a glass nearby, it only
happened when she forgot to fill it or it tipped over. Mind you, she
noticed the glass was empty *after* an incident, not before.
Therefore it hardly seems likely that the empty glass was somehow
"causing" her to see apparations.
I and others have suggested ways your
friend could get information to form a dream from unconscious
suggestion or clues within the house itself. I find your friends
experiences interesting, but there are many natural reason that
your observations were seen. As I said, the paranormal, though
not absent from my list, is way down there. Why, when you cannot
come up with a rational explanation for an unusual event, do you
not consider that maybe you are not privi to all the information
involved with the event?
Oh, now it's clues from the house is it? Well, that certainly is
novel. I can't remember the last time a Bungalow gave me
hallucinations, but I suppose there's always a first time. You seem to have
a
fundamental resistance to the idea that non-corporeal entities may
exist on earth. I assume that that means you don't believe in life
after death either, and chock it all up to anoxia or something like
that. Why is this? Bad religious experience? Might I detect some
kind of *bias* perhaps? Really, I'd like to know where your
information on this topic comes from.
I'd type more but I'm already late for class.....
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1071 SKEP Subboard
From: DRLL@UNIVERSE.NER.WAY.OUT.SOMEW Sent: 04-12-90 12:57
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:01
Re: (R)HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIG
From: drll@universe.ner.way.out.somewhere.wormhole
Date: 28 Mar 90 14:23:16 GMT
Organization: Home for lost aliens.
Message-ID:
<274957367463849534632625E152@@universe.ner.way.out.somewhere.wormhole>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
It's true...It's true...It's all true. I should know, I am krll's half
brother-semi-cousin. I have copies of all the documents signed by the
Earth governments. If you would like copies, send a self addressed envelope
and postage sufficient for the trip from the outer rim (about 1.414E16 US
dollars) to:
Non-Serious Cybernetics Corp (The first against the wall)
Attention: Zaphod Bebelbrox
123,452,87766,45566,343233 West by South-East Boondogal Street.
Betelgeuse, Universe 76509-2877-29384-0094823-03948-928775-00e92
--
I bet you didn't know Usenet got way out here.
Well...someone had to do it.
From the fun folks at Forgeries-R-Us
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1072 SKEP Subboard
From: DRLL@UNIVERSE.NER.WAY.OUT.SOMEW Sent: 04-12-90 13:16
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:01
Re: (R)HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIG
From: drll@universe.ner.way.out.somewhere.wormhole
Date: 28 Mar 90 14:23:16 GMT
Organization: Home for lost aliens.
Message-ID:
<274957367463849534632625E152@@universe.ner.way.out.somewhere.wormhole>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
It's true...It's true...It's all true. I should know, I am krll's half
brother-semi-cousin. I have copies of all the documents signed by the
Earth governments. If you would like copies, send a self addressed envelope
and postage sufficient for the trip from the outer rim (about 1.414E16 US
dollars) to:
Non-Serious Cybernetics Corp (The first against the wall)
Attention: Zaphod Bebelbrox
123,452,87766,45566,343233 West by South-East Boondogal Street.
Betelgeuse, Universe 76509-2877-29384-0094823-03948-928775-00e92
--
I bet you didn't know Usenet got way out here.
Well...someone had to do it.
From the fun folks at Forgeries-R-Us
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1073 SKEP Subboard
From: TIM MARONEY Sent: 04-12-90 13:17
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:02
Re: (R)PROCTER & GAMBLE MYTH
From: tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney)
Date: 29 Mar 90 16:43:38 GMT
Organization: Eclectic Software, San Francisco
Message-ID: <10958@hoptoad.uucp>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic
In article <33604@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU> pierce@cs.ucla.edu () writes:
>Who are Procter & Gamble's main competitors?
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit!
Seriously, after being bombarded by the more pinheaded elements of
Christianity, certain people in Proctor & Gamble may wind up deciding
there's something to this Satanism business after all! Chalk up
another self-fulfilling prophecy....
--
Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
"Those Jesus freaks, well, they're friendly but
the shit they believe has got their minds all shut."
-- Frank Zappa, "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing"
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1074 SKEP Subboard
From: ALAN HEPBURN Sent: 04-12-90 13:18
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:03
Re: (R)HUGE UFO DOC FROM ORIG
From: alan@dtg.nsc.com (Alan Hepburn)
Date: 28 Mar 90 18:23:03 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara
Message-ID: <814@hurricane.nsc.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article
<274957367463849534632625E152@@universe.ner.way.out.somewhere.wormhole>
drll@universe.ner.way.out.somewhere.wormhole writes:
>
>Non-Serious Cybernetics Corp (The first against the wall)
>Attention: Zaphod Bebelbrox
----------------
>123,452,87766,45566,343233 West by South-East Boondogal Street.
>Betelgeuse, Universe 76509-2877-29384-0094823-03948-928775-00e92
>--
>I bet you didn't know Usenet got way out here.
>Well...someone had to do it.
>From the fun folks at Forgeries-R-Us
You must be distantly related to Zaphod Beeblebrox, who, as we
all know, is an acquaintance if Ford Prefect. (now where did I put
my danger glasses?)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Alan Hepburn Omne ignotum pro magnifico
mail: alan@blenheim.nsc.com My opinions are just that: opinions
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
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Msg #: 1075 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBERT M DERRICK Sent: 04-12-90 17:04
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:03
Re: (R)HELP! MY GRANDMOTHER
From: rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick)
Date: 2 Apr 90 21:03:47 GMT
Organization: Los Alamos Natl. Labs, Los Alamos, NM
Message-ID: <47489@lanl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric
Iverson) writes:
>In article <28475@cup.portal.com> mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson)
writes:
>
>> It's recently been discovered that my grandmother, who is 91, has been
>> regularly sending large checks to the TV preacher Dr. Kennedy. The
largest
>> check so far seems to have been one for $1000.
[Wants info to prove to Granny that Dr. K is a crook, if so]
>
>Why does your grandmother need any evidence to convince her? It
>certainly didn't take any evidence to convince you. Or does the fact
>that the guy appears on TV automatically mean he's a con artist? I
>suggest you check your facts *before* you jump to any conclusions
>about this guy.
It's called a rule of thumb. Like don't eat wild mushrooms; there
are many edible 'shrooms, but who wants the risk. Don't buy a Rolex
for $25 bucks from a guy at the airport. Come on Eric, some TV
preacher regularly taking checks up to a grand from Little Old Ladies!
Examining my own secular humanist situationally ethical morality,
I find that TV Evangelists are much like wild mushrooms; mostly
poisonous. Now before jumping on the guy for using a little
Occamic Common Sense, how about disabusing him of what a nasty-bad
he thinks Dr. K is. Give us some light about what a wonderkind of
a al shweitzer Dr. K really is. And how LoL's who give all their
money to Dr. K are doing it of their own free will. But don't
come back with some lame "until you know better, give the boy a
chance" crappola. Based on personal experience, a TV preacher
who sent letters requesting money that were just this side of
legal extortion and terrorism, and an LoL who wound up dying in
a state nursing home after giving a life savings to this bastard,
I will tend to side with the grandson. If Dr. K's a nice guy,
tell us.
>Now if your grandmother can't afford to pay out that kind of money,
>that's another matter entirely....
Immaterial, your honor. Theft is not predicated on whether the
victim can afford it or not. (And yes, fraud is theft, and
the United States of A. have determined that a TV EV can be
found guilty of fraud, even if the people gave their money
willingly, and still think Smiley is a GodSend.)
So, I understand your feeling that he should be innocent until
proven guilty. But that credo has not yet stopped the gov'mint
from locking 'em up, and looking for the prove. At least Thorson
didn't ask for a lynching. All he asked for was some evidence,
and I'm sure if all that forthcomes is pro, he will understand
that Dr. K ain't so bad. On the other hand, don't eat that
'shroom!
Doc boB - SoreSpots Incorporated
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Msg #: 1076 SKEP Subboard
From: DAVID WEINGART Sent: 04-12-90 17:05
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:05
Re: (R)URBAN MYTHS
From: dweingar@ic.sunysb.edu (David Weingart)
Date: 3 Apr 90 01:04:38 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Message-ID: <7244@sbcs.sunysb.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <62.26135551@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>I had heard the story but didn't know it was considered an urban myth.
>I also heard one about Johnny saying something to some other actress/singer
>because she was lesbian. Supposedly he said what a waste and she stormed
off.
>Now if I could just remember who the singer was....
If I'm not too bady mistaken, I heard the same tale told. I believe that the
singer in question was Olivia Newton-John.
Now, whether or not she really *is* (or was) a lesbian is something that I
can't vouch for. Come to think of it, I can't say that I much care, either!
]) /\ \/ [-
--
David Weingart dweingar@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu
"Portions of this person have been pre-recorded before a studio audience."
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Msg #: 1077 SKEP Subboard
From: NICHAEL CRAMER Sent: 04-12-90 17:06
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:06
Re: (R)HOW MANY PEOPLE? 100B
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Date: 3 Apr 90 01:52:31 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
Message-ID: <54413@bbn.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
[[Response to postings by James Dolan and Ken Greer]]
> == James D Dolan writes:
>| == Nichael Cramer (me) writes...
>|> == Ken Greer writes:
>|> A couple of years ago, so I don't recall the source, I heard that
>|>there are(were) as many people alive now as have ever lived. So I
>|>guess that would mean instead of 2.5 - 8.8 %, it would be ~50%.
>..
>|> The explanation given was that in early times, the "critical mass"
>|>just wasn't there in sufficient locations to really start up the
>|>growth process - so the population just hovered around the same total
>|>without the relatively high growth rate we have today. The total
>|>population eventually was dense enough that people could more
>|>efficiently find mates.
>|
>|This doesn't make sense either. The real reasons for explosive population
>|growth have been technological (e.g. the development of agriculture).
>|There have *always* been enough people around --and mates easy enough to
>|find-- to fuel growth.
>|
>|Granted, once a carrying capacity has been reached, a population may stay
>|at a fixed value for a long time, but if it does so for a *long* time (and
>|we're talking tens of thousands of years) it will still add up.
>I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT YOUR MAIN POINT IS, BUT IN ANY CASE I THINK YOU'RE
>UNDERSTATING THE NONSENSICALNESS OF THE ORIGINAL POST. WITH HUMAN POPULATION
>ABLE TO DOUBLE IN WELL UNDER AN AVERAGE LIFETIME, BASICALLY THE _ONLY_ WAY
TO
>AVOID HAVING THE CURRENT POPULATION BE MORE THAN 50% OF THOSE WHO EVER LIVED
>IS TO HAVE HAD LONG PERIODS IN THE PAST WHEN GROWTH WAS RELATIVELY STAGNANT.
>GREER'S "EXPLANATION" OF HOW TO ACHIEVE THE 50% LEVEL IN FACT EXPLAINS
>PRACTICALLY THE ONLY WAY TO AVOID THE 50% LEVEL.
Well, I think mainly we're in violent agreement except on this last
point. The first point in my posting was that the claim that 50% of all
people who ever lived are alive now is not correct (I gave arguments and
presented data as to why this can't be the case). I believe(?) that you
and I, in any case, are in agreement about that.
Second, there was the implicit point that the current rate of population
growth can not have been the true over long periods of history. (For
instance, the current rate is about 1.7% per year[*] --leading to a
doubling time of about 41 years. Extrapolating backwards leads to a
population of zero at about AD 700, a datum even Bishop of Usher would
have trouble swallowing ;). Consequently there had to have been long
periods when, as you say, "growth was relatively stagnant". Again, I
think we're in agreement on this point.
The third point (the one above) however, was that I find it hard to see
how the scarcity/difficult of finding an appropriate mate could have been
the main limiting factor. Perhaps it was a major consideration *very*
early on, but surely this restriction was lifted by, say, the time of
Christ. Given that, and if we assume the current population growth
rate[**], even if we start with only two people at AD 1 there should now
be ~10^14 people. So clearly there must be other, more important forces
at work (e.g. carry capacity/overall scarcity of food).
The *real* main point, in any event, was that neither this mechanism
--nor any other-- kept the population so low for so long a time that half
of all people to currently be alive.
[*] _1990 World Almanac and Book of Facts_.
[**] This is actually a lower bound as the current rate is somewhat lower
than it has been in the past.
Ken Greer writes:
> BTW - If all the flamers will go back and read my original post, the
>numbers/statements I gave were from my recollection of a TV show a couple of
>years ago. I presented them as such, in my opinion - my _recollection_. I
>never endorssed them; I never said they were correct. I never said they
>"made sense". Upon hearing every so often that the world population might
>be expected to double in the next 15-20 years (again - I hear these numbers
>bantered about from time to time and don't have references available upon
>request), to me its not such a preposterous notion.
>
> To the flamers re: "mate finding" --- I'll say it again: The original post
>was my recollection from something a couple of years ago. [...]
As I'm the only one --so far as I know-- who responded (publicly) to the
message in question, I am presumably the "flamers" in this case. So I
guess I should probably be the one to respond.
I understand that you were only presenting an opinion which was not
necessarily yours; this is why I took especial caution in my original
posting to address the validity of this line of argument and not direct
my criticism at you. Certainly I disagreed with you --or rather the
arguments that you raised-- and I pointed out why. Perhaps I did so
emphatically; but I don't think I did so unfairly.
It appears that you understood my disagreement with the points you raise
as a personal flame --as opposed to, say, an invitation to discuss the
issues further. I'm sorry that you chose to see them this way, but I
really don't see how there is anything in my original message from which
you could draw this conclusion.
N
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1078 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 04-12-90 17:08
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:08
Re: (R)HELP! MY GRANDMOTHER
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 3 Apr 90 16:10:50 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <47489@lanl.gov> rxxd@lanl.gov (Robert M Derrick) writes:
> In article eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric
Iverson) writes:
> >In article <28475@cup.portal.com> mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert
Thorson) writes:
> >
> >> It's recently been discovered that my grandmother, who is 91, has been
> >> regularly sending large checks to the TV preacher Dr. Kennedy. The
largest
> >> check so far seems to have been one for $1000.
>
> [Wants info to prove to Granny that Dr. K is a crook, if so]
> >
> >Why does your grandmother need any evidence to convince her? It
> >certainly didn't take any evidence to convince you. Or does the fact
> >that the guy appears on TV automatically mean he's a con artist? I
> >suggest you check your facts *before* you jump to any conclusions
> >about this guy.
>
> It's called a rule of thumb. Like don't eat wild mushrooms; there
> are many edible 'shrooms, but who wants the risk. Don't buy a Rolex
> for $25 bucks from a guy at the airport. Come on Eric, some TV
> preacher regularly taking checks up to a grand from Little Old Ladies!
Oh, rule of thumb is it? Here's some other "rules of thumb": If you
see a black man, assume he's a thief. If you see a Palestinian,
assume he's a terrorist. Never trust a Jew in a business deal. Until
proven otherwise, assume a TV evangelist is a con man.
The point is, these aren't "rules of thumb", they're potentially
damaging racial and social stereotypes. Your example of the mushrooms
is a good one. Not only is the danger of poisonous mushrooms
exagerated, it can be avoided with a little knowledge and common
sense. To automatically exclude all wild mushrooms due to fear and
ignorance is to miss out on what might actually be a worthwhile
experience. Similarly, to reject all TV evangelists is to let some
possibly worthwhile charities go unfunded. Admitedly, it is difficult
to distinguish between the good and the bad sometimes. This is why we
have brains to help us. Now you can either not use your brain and
just automatically run away from everything, or you can use your brain
and maximize your opportunities.
> Examining my own secular humanist situationally ethical morality,
> I find that TV Evangelists are much like wild mushrooms; mostly
> poisonous. Now before jumping on the guy for using a little
> Occamic Common Sense, how about disabusing him of what a nasty-bad
> he thinks Dr. K is. Give us some light about what a wonderkind of
> a al shweitzer Dr. K really is. And how LoL's who give all their
> money to Dr. K are doing it of their own free will. But don't
> come back with some lame "until you know better, give the boy a
> chance" crappola. Based on personal experience, a TV preacher
> who sent letters requesting money that were just this side of
> legal extortion and terrorism, and an LoL who wound up dying in
> a state nursing home after giving a life savings to this bastard,
> I will tend to side with the grandson. If Dr. K's a nice guy,
> tell us.
Well, there's the clear voice of objective rationality speaking. I
can understand how your past experiences may have poisoned you against
giving money to TV ministers. Clearly there are some sleazy characters
out there. But I still say this is analogous to assuming all black
men are theives just because you got mugged by one once. It just
doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Similarly, I am amused at your requests
for me to tell you what Dr. K is "really like." Why not find out for
yourself? Even if I did have an opinion on the subject (I don't) I
wouldn't expect you to accept it as gospel truth. My idea of
acceptable behavior may be your idea of extortion. However, I don't
have to know anything about the guy to know that it's a mistake to
jump to conclusions about him without a little hard evidence.
>
> >Now if your grandmother can't afford to pay out that kind of money,
> >that's another matter entirely....
>
> Immaterial, your honor. Theft is not predicated on whether the
> victim can afford it or not. (And yes, fraud is theft, and
> the United States of A. have determined that a TV EV can be
> found guilty of fraud, even if the people gave their money
> willingly, and still think Smiley is a GodSend.)
Hmmmmm....I think it's only "theft" when someone other than the
Catholics or Protestants are doing it. That is to say, it's a pretty
subjective definition based on a myriad of socio-religious biases. I
think it's more important to look at what a religious group is doing
rather than who signs their checks. The point is, you can find
evidence of immorality in virtually every sect if you look hard
enough. But because of the established nature of some of these
sects, people rationalize it, or just choose to look the other way.
This may be justified if the church as a whole does a lot of good for
the community. But it sure doesn't bode well for the black and white
view of religion that you seem to be advocating. Religion is a
subjective experience. As a result our reactions to it can be
potentially subjective as well. It is only by examining these biases
within ourselves that we can see what's really going on.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1079 SKEP Subboard
From: PETER NELSON Sent: 04-12-90 17:09
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:11
Re: RE MEN IN BLACK
From: nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter Nelson)
Date: 3 Apr 90 20:31:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA
Message-ID: <49966f36.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
>My question about this is why does anybody take this stuff seriously
>(besides the reasons they take all UFO nonsense seriously)? This seems
>like one of the sillier stories going around. Emotionally unstable people
>frightened by people who look and behave normally (except for their taste
>in clothes). Someone should study these victims.
Actually it's worth asking IF anybody takes this seriously.
I posted a request to hear from people who genuinely
believe in the UFO/CIA conspiracy stories of the sort
recounted here on the net recently and although several
people reported knowing OF such individuals nobody actually
admitted to believing it themselves.
I subscribe to all kinds of weird publications as a result
of getting a copy of Factsheet Five a few years ago. [ Are
they still around? Same address? Cost? ] It is hard to
believe that ANYBODY really believes a lot of these things
and it's often ocurred to me that what keeps people and
groups like that going are people like ME, i.e., those who
are fascinated by the truly weird but who always recognize
it as weird, i.e., colorful, bizarre, sometimes dangerous,
nonsense.
I have heard of the Men In Black, probably from a Church of the
Subgenius publication a while back, but I didn't really know what
the folklore associated with them was. But recently someone on
the net made a reference to "Grays" (or Greys sp?), which I have
not heard of. What are they and is there any alleged connection
to MIB's?
---Peter
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Msg #: 1080 SKEP Subboard
From: PHIL GUSTAFSON Sent: 04-12-90 17:10
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:12
Re: (R)URBAN MYTHS
From: phil@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Phil Gustafson)
Date: 3 Apr 90 18:54:10 GMT
Organization: SF Bay Public-Access Unix
Message-ID: <1107@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1427@utoday.UUCP> wagner@.UUCP (Mitch Wagner) writes:
>My favorite urban myths are the ones about the Tonight Show, wherein
>Johnny Carson supposedly makes some double-entendre to a sexy female
>guest, and she storms off in a huff and usually sues.
>.... At first blush, it would appear that
>it could be easily verified or disproven, but when you take a second
>look ... who in God's name catches *every* tonight show.
>
>
> Mitch
But that's not how you prove or disprove it. The issue isn't whether Johnny
insulted someone, or whether the someone stomped off the set -- I'm sure both
of those have happened.
The issue is about the lawsuit. Since:
Lawsuits are on the public record.
and
Reporters read the public record.
and
Reporters LOVE stuff like this, and would plaster the media with it
if it happened. Not to mention, suing bimbettes also LOVE stuff like
this, and would go out of their way to be sure that it got all the
media coverage possible.
and
I read two papers a day, and haven't heard a word about it.
My conclusion is:
It didn't happen.
This conclusion is, like any other, subject to change if and when new
information is brought to bear.
BTW, the reasoning above applies to many other UM's.
phil
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Msg #: 1081 SKEP Subboard
From: CHRIS STASSEN Sent: 04-12-90 17:10
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:13
Re: IN SEARCH OF ... BOOKS (L
From: stassen@netcom.UUCP (Chris Stassen)
Date: 4 Apr 90 02:31:45 GMT
Organization: The Lion's Den, San Jose
Message-ID: <10463@netcom.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
I set out this weekend looking for books on a number of topics which have
come up here recently (specifically, Forteana, cryptozoology, and ooparts,
from Eric's "Forteana Survey"). I was checking both skeptical and
non-skeptical books, and ended up visiting two public libraries and several
bookstores. I didn't find much - especially in the bookstores. These
topics seem to be "out". UFOs are definitely "in".
Here are the notes I took:
-----------------------------
San Jose Public Library: To find topics of this sort, go straight to
001.94. They only had one title on UFOs (_Incident at Exeter_). About
half of the titles were on cryptozoology, and most of the rest were generic
"unexplained mystery" collections. There was only one skeptical title in
this section, _Scientists Confront Velikovsky_. I found it odd that they
didn't have anything by Velikovsky to go with it. There was nothing by Von
Daniken in that section (though I later found two of his titles in
Archaeology - gag).
The best neutral title on cryptozoology that they had was Daniel
Cohen's _Encyclopedia Of Monsters_. I recommend it as a relatively even-
handed presentation of the evidence. The library had a collection of all
four of Fort's books (in one large volume).
-----------------------------
Waldenbooks: Both Von Daniken and Velikovsky had disappeared from the
shelves (both had titles on display a few years ago). The "Astrology"
section is now called "New Age". They had no titles related to topics
from the "Forteana Survey", but did have several UFO titles.
Waldenbooks gets one point for being the only bookstore that had a
skeptical work on display (_Science and the Paranormal_, Abell & Singer
editors, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1981). It was in the "Science"
section. I find it frightening to have encountered hundreds of titles
written with uncritical acceptance, perhaps ten written with relative
neutrality, and exactly two written skeptically.
-----------------------------
Bretano's: This is a somewhat "upscale" bookstore chain. The prices are
higher, and they stock a higher ratio of hardbacks-to-paperbacks than the
other chain stores I visited. Bretano's also had no titles germane to the
topics in the Forteana Survey. The "New Age" section was half the size of
the ones in the other chain stores, but had the same set of UFO titles.
-----------------------------
B. Dalton's: Just like Waldenbooks, the "Astrology and the Occult" section
had been replaced by a "New Age" section. It also included roughly the
same selection of UFO titles that all of the other book stores had.
Right on the bottom shelf, though, they had four Frank Edwards
titles (_Stranger than Science_, _Strange People_, _Strange World_, and
_Strangest of All_). Velikovsky and Von Daniken may have been passing
fads, but Forteana is still alive.
The thing that has struck me the most about B. Dalton's is the
decay of their "Science" section. Six years ago, the local store had a
"Science" section that spanned five sets of shelving. Now, it spans two.
Years ago, I bought several of my talk.origins references there; now
skeptical materials are not to be found.
-----------------------------
The Milpitas Community Library:
My second library stop was The Milpitas Community Libary. While a good deal
smaller than the main San Jose branch, their selection under 001.94 was
about as large and much better. About half of their titles in that section
were on cryptozoology, but most of the rest were on UFOs. They had a copy
of Klass's skeptical work, _UFOs: The Public Deceived_ (which was the only
skeptical work I had seen on UFOs all weekend). They had the same two of
Von Daniken's works as the other library had (_Chariots_ and _Gold_), but
at least they were in the right place.
As a side note, the Milpitas Community Library has an excellent
collection of creation/evolution works. These works are found in 213-215
and 575-577.
-----------------------------
I'm curious to hear the situation in other parts of the country. Are there
any skeptics out there willing to perform similar library/bookstore
surveys?
--
Chris Stassen stassen@netcom.UUCP
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Msg #: 1082 SKEP Subboard
From: ROBIN DALE HANSON Sent: 04-12-90 17:10
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 18:16
Re: WHAT SCIENTIFIC METHOD?
From: hanson@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (Robin Dale Hanson)
Date: 4 Apr 90 03:14:36 GMT
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Message-ID: <4685@einstein.ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In <4471@bayes.ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> I wrote:
>>I tire of these rah-rah defenses of "THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD". Let us be
>>skeptics for a moment, shall we? What evidence do we have that there is
>>such a thing? I mean, at various times in history various groups of
>>people have found it suited their fancy to use the word "science" to
>>label their studies. But is there really anything important in common
>>in the way these groups go about their business? That distinguishes
>>them from other people going about their business? ...
In <950.2612201e@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>, Bob writes:
>So, what are you saying? Are you saying that you are skeptical of the
method
>that has enabled you to use a computer to type in your reply in the first
>place? Your line of thought seems to follow a subtle form of paradox -- as
if
>you would go out of your way to convince someone that THEY should not
believe
>in the presence of other minds.
If there was any doubt, let me state clearly that I am not proposing
that we be skeptical about computers, other minds, logic, telephones,
or floors under beds. Obviously, many things seem so obvious that it is
not interesting to be skeptical about them, unless one is in a particularly
philosophical state of mind.
But it should be legitimate to ask "is there any evidence that ...?"
about most anything widely accepted. If people can't come back with a
few pieces of at least suggestive evidence, you have reason to worry.
So I ask "Is there any evidence that there is a scientific method?".
>I don't know -- I thought that some sort of empirical criterion was at the
>least a "good idea." And when this empirical "stuff" seems to follow some
sort
>of pattern -- having the ability to be repeated under certain conditions --
it
>would seem as though one could be onto something.
Yes, of course, theories that seem to be supported by some sort of
experience are nicer that ones that don't, all else being equal. And
the more frequent and controllable that experience, the better. But I
take the claim of a scientific method to be something much stronger that
this. I think the standard myth goes something like the following:
"Long ago people lived in darkness, believing foolish things, and not
owning VCRs. Then men of wisdom discovered THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, the
secret to knowledge and understanding. They passed this secret on to
their disciples, who faithfully applied it and passed it on. Kings who
retained these wizards prospered, the others did not. Today these
wizards train their select few in academia, and woe be to the government
who does not fund them as amply as they request, or to the nation who
will not believe all their official pronouncements."
It is this that I am skeptical of.
>>A method should be something more like a recipe or algorithm, something
>>one can follow. Something EXPLICIT. But where is it?
>No pun intended, but could you explain your question?
Let me take the example of making a concrete bridge. If I pay you
$10000 for the secret method of making them, I expect to get more than
"It should not fall down when you're done" or "the less concrete you
can use to support a given amount of traffic, the better". I want
something like "Create an outline of the bridge from wood panels, mix
3 parts lime with 1 part water, ..."
>>And it is not at all obvious that we should credit the smallpox vaccine to
>>... the scientific method ..., rather than just plain hard work on many
>>people's part. Were other methods tried at a comparable level of effort?
>Mr. Skeptic, pray tell exactly what you mean by "hard work"?
If you said I should hire you as leader of my army, because you have
destroyed your enemy in every battle, and I were to find out that you
always had a 10-1 numerical advantage, should I not be skeptical that
you had discovered the fundamental secret of warfare?
Similarly, it seems simplest to explain the great success of scientists
by the fact that they are so well funded, and that they put in a lot of
elbow grease. Why invoke the idea of a magic scientific method?
Robin Hanson hanson@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (or hanson@charon.arc.nasa.gov)
415-604-3361 MS244-17, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA 94035
415-651-7483 47164 Male Terrace, Fremont, CA 94539-7921
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1083 SKEP Subboard
From: CHARLES FORSYTHE Sent: 04-12-90 17:11
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 07:59
Re: (R)HELP! MY GRANDMOTHER
From: forsythe@convex.com (Charles Forsythe)
Date: 3 Apr 90 20:45:06 GMT
Message-ID: <101095@convex.convex.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson) writes:
>> It's called a rule of thumb... Come on Eric, some TV
>> preacher regularly taking checks up to a grand from Little Old Ladies!
>Oh, rule of thumb is it? Here's some other "rules of thumb": If you
>see a black man, assume he's a thief. If you see a Palestinian,
>assume he's a terrorist. Never trust a Jew in a business deal.
The significant difference between these "rules" and the one about TV
preachers is that the ones you mention to not hold up under scrutiny.
It is actually harder to meet a Palestinian who is a terrorist than one
who is a refugee. I have yet to meet a Jew who was more materialistic
than any other human. While our jails are overflowing with a
disproportionate
number of blacks, it obvious that free from the cycles of poverty, they
are just as honest, hardworking and trustworthy as people of other races.
(Also, just as boring e.g. Bill Cosby :-).
If you follow your "rules of thumb" you will be embarassingly incorrect most
of the time.
This is not the case with TV preachers. The more scrutiny they seem to get,
the uglier a picture is drawn. Their sleaziness increases with their wealth.
I imagine that after this Dr. K. has reaped enough bucks from enough
pensioners, he, too will end up on the front page of the Enquirer.
>Until proven otherwise, assume a TV evangelist is a con man.
Have you ever heard or been taught,"If you see a gun, assume it's loaded?"
This is because the consquences of assuming it's unloaded when it is are
much
worse, typically, than the consequences of assuming it's loaded when it's
not.
This is all, typically, the case for people who ask for your money. It's
better to make sure they're honest first!
For a scathing expose of the cult business, send $1 to:
The Church of the Subgenius
PO Box 140306
Dallas, TX 75214
--
*Convex does not filter outgoing posts and is not responsible for their
content
send comments/flames to: forsythe@convex.com
"I got a Wire in my head and I like how it feels"
-"Wirehead Conspiracy" by Buck and the Tow Trucks
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Msg #: 1084 SKEP Subboard
From: RICHARD A. SCHUMACHER Sent: 04-12-90 17:11
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 08:02
Re: (R)HELP! MY GRANDMOTHER
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Date: 4 Apr 90 00:17:59 GMT
Message-ID: <101111@convex.convex.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson) writes:
>experience. Similarly, to reject all TV evangelists is to let some
>possibly worthwhile charities go unfunded. Admitedly, it is difficult
Great! Prove us wrong about the absence of worthwhile charities among
TV evangelists: name two.
Thanks.
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1085 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 04-12-90 17:11
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-18-90 08:10
Re: (R)RE MEN IN BLACK
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 4 Apr 90 04:48:32 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <49966f36.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> nelson_p@apollo.HP.COM (Peter
Nelson) writes:
> I have heard of the Men In Black, probably from a Church of the
> Subgenius publication a while back, but I didn't really know what
> the folklore associated with them was. But recently someone on
> the net made a reference to "Grays" (or Greys sp?), which I have
> not heard of. What are they and is there any alleged connection
> to MIB's?
The Greys are those shortish, insect eyed grey aliens who seem to
persist in abducting humans for testing purposes. There have been
numerous sketches by witnesses which bear striking resemblence to each
other. There is also apparantly a group/race called the Nordics.
This group is too weird to even think about, as they all seem to
resemble Norse Gods and have names like Thor. I can't possibly
believe that they're really Norse Gods. Although I suppose it would
explain a lot of my ancestor's mythology......
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
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Msg #: 1086 SKEP Subboard
From: MATT VISSER Sent: 04-12-90 17:11
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-18-90 08:11
Re: (R)MEN IN BLACK
From: visser@wuphys.wustl.edu (Matt Visser)
Date: 4 Apr 90 05:15:32 GMT
Organization: Physics Dept, Washington U. in St Louis
Message-ID: <1990Apr4.051532.19493@wuphys.wustl.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2494@elric.elric.Sp.Unisys.COM> hblask@elric.elric.Sp.Unisys.COM
(Henry E. Blaskowski) writes:
>
>There was an article in the paper here in Minneapolis this past weekend
>discussing a phenomenon I have never heard of before. It is called the
>men in black (MIB).
**** Lots of good clean paranoid fun deleted ****
>Usually the Star-Tribune is a fairly serious paper, not a
>national enquirer clone. What is this all about? Has anyone else heard of
>this?
>
Unfortunately, the Men in Black myth is not just the result of your local
newspaper editor having a bad day. The MIB mythos has been an
aspect of UFO lore for at least twenty years. The old guard UFO-ologists
could never quite decide whether the MIBs were part of the government
coverup or whether the MIBs were the ailens themselves. For more
information you will just have to wade through stacks of UFO literature.
Have fun! :)
--
############################################################################
Matt Visser, Physics Department, Washington University, St. Louis 63130-4899
visser@wuphys.wustl.edu
############################################################################
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Msg #: 1087 SKEP Subboard
From: KEN SHIRRIFF Sent: 04-12-90 17:11
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-18-90 08:12
Re: (R)MEN IN BLACK
From: shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff)
Date: 4 Apr 90 05:39:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Message-ID: <23651@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <2494@elric.elric.Sp.Unisys.COM> hblask@elric.elric.Sp.Unisys.COM
(Henry E. Blaskowski) writes:
>There was an article in the paper here in Minneapolis this past weekend
>discussing a phenomenon I have never heard of before. It is called the
>men in black (MIB).
Are these men any relation to the People In Black (PIB's), who dress
in black, hang around cafes, and listen to bands like New Order,
The Smiths, and The Cure? These people usually have pale skin, makeup,
and unnaturally black or red hair. Do you suppose they're aliens?
Ken Shirriff shirriff@sprite.Berkeley.EDU
"He has always been so strange, I often thought he was deranged."
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Msg #: 1088 SKEP Subboard
From: KENNETH ARROMDEE Sent: 04-12-90 17:12
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-20-90 06:47
Re: (R)TWO URBAN MYTHS?
From: arromdee@crabcake.cs.jhu.edu (Kenneth Arromdee)
Date: 4 Apr 90 05:06:00 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Message-ID: <1125@crabcake>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <53932@microsoft.UUCP> scottsc@microsoft.UUCP (Scott SCHULTZ)
writes:
>It's been done already. I remember reading a newspaper article several
>year ago (see, it already sounds like an urban myth!) about a bunch of
>talking dolls that were recalled because of a defect in the recording that
>made "I like talking to you" or (some such thing) come out as "I like
>fucking you". I don't remember the manufacturer. It has to be True! I read
>it in the newspaper! ;-)
I recall something vaguely similar about the dolls which said "kill mama".
(It was allegedly Spanish, "quiero mama", 'I want mommy', and just sounded
a bit like that when heard by people who don't know Spanish.)
--
"And they shall be cast out where there is no outlet for their evil
doings..."
-- the Book of Ubizmo, on sinful uses of electricity
Kenneth Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
INTERNET: arromdee@crabcake.cs.jhu.edu)
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Msg #: 1089 SKEP Subboard
From: FSMJM2@ACAD3.FAI.ALASKA.EDU Sent: 04-12-90 17:12
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-18-90 08:13
Re: (R)MEN IN BLACK
From: fsmjm2@acad3.fai.alaska.edu
Date: 4 Apr 90 10:18:20 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Message-ID: <1990Apr4.112030.6452@hayes.fai.alaska.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1990Apr4.051532.19493@wuphys.wustl.edu>, visser@wuphys.wustl.edu
(Matt Visser) writes...
>coverup or whether the MIBs were the ailens themselves. For more
>information you will just have to wade through stacks of UFO literature.
The very best book on the MIB Phenomenon has to be _The Mothman Prophecies_
by John Keel.
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Msg #: 1090 SKEP Subboard
From: JON LIVESEY Sent: 04-12-90 17:14
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-16-90 19:01
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: livesey@solntze.Sun.COM (Jon Livesey)
Date: 31 Mar 90 01:40:35 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View
Message-ID: <133759@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <1421@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
writes:
>
> I've seen
> those who claim to be able to predict the future who have predicted
> over and over again that the world will end, yet no one predicted
> the USSR and eastern europe openning up.
Better yet, I predicted this event years ago, to many people,
and even pointed to a key event in the process - the Moscow
Olympics - but make absolutely no claims to being a seer
or to any spooky powers. It was just common sense.
jon.
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Msg #: 1091 SKEP Subboard
From: RANJAN MUTTIAH Sent: 04-12-90 17:14
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-16-90 19:02
Re: (R)POSITIVISM AS A METHOD
From: g2g@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Ranjan Muttiah)
Date: 31 Mar 90 05:29:56 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Message-ID: <9089@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <133759@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> livesey@sun.UUCP (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <1421@nih-csl.UUCP> sullivan@csl-sun3.dcrt.nih.gov (Sullivan)
writes:
>>
>> I've seen
>> those who claim to be able to predict the future who have predicted
>> over and over again that the world will end, yet no one predicted
>> the USSR and eastern europe openning up.
>
>Better yet, I predicted this event years ago, to many people,
>and even pointed to a key event in the process - the Moscow
>Olympics - but make absolutely no claims to being a seer
>or to any spooky powers. It was just common sense.
>jon.
You were able to predict 10 years down the road just by
the Moscow olympics ?
Oh please, I implore you, please tell us how you did it ? It
couldn't
be could it ? That YOU were controlling the strings all along! :-).
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Msg #: 1092 SKEP Subboard
From: MARK ROBERT THORSON Sent: 04-12-90 17:16
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 07:48
Re: HELP! MY GRANDMOTHER IS
From: mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson)
Date: 31 Mar 90 17:51:25 GMT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Message-ID: <28475@cup.portal.com>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
It's recently been discovered that my grandmother, who is 91, has been
regularly sending large checks to the TV preacher Dr. Kennedy. The largest
check so far seems to have been one for $1000.
I know almost nothing about this guy, other than that he is based in Coral
Gables, FL, and appears on TV throughout the U.S. Can anybody supply me
with any critical information about him, something that might help convince
my grandmother that her money is best spent elsewhere.
Reference to a book or magazine article would be appreciated.
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Msg #: 1093 SKEP Subboard
From: JIM GALASYN Sent: 04-12-90 17:16
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-16-90 19:02
Re: THE CON (WAS RE: HUGE UFO
From: jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn)
Date: 28 Mar 90 20:00:43 GMT
Organization: The Boeing Co., BCA FSL, Seattle, WA
Message-ID: <1020@tahoma.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Peter writes:
> I'd like to know if there are people on the net who actually believe
> that UFO's *are* from outer space; that the government *is* in
> regular contact with the space aliens; and that there *is* a giant
> conspiracy to cover it up.
> If so, would you be willing to come forward on the net and post
> your reasons for believing it, what you consider to be evidence
> of this and why you believe that a conspiracy of such breadth
> and magnitude could be kept secret for so long. I promise not
> to laugh (seriously).
You'll laugh all the way to the fully equipped survival shelter when "Bob"
lets you in on the joke.
Peter, the Con is SO REAL it would melt your brain to see it all at once.
At this moment YOU ARE SURROUNDED by the "aliens". They are IN THE ROOM
with you. They are watching you. Can't you feel, even now, the weight of
their collective gaze? They are OBVIOUS AS HELL if you only have eyes to
SEE. THEY are in "regular contact" WITH YOU right now; your mind fits
quite nicely in their skeletal clawed hands. They control you more
effectively than any little sphere planted near your optic nerve could.
McGovernment sold you down the river to them before you were born, and the
only way to buy yourself back is to get right with "Bob". They have you
so separated from what you're REALLY SEEING that you don't even know what
SLACK is. Your nervous system is SO DAMAGED by their "treatments" that
you can't even SEE them anymore --
THIS IS A WARNING, ***DANGER DANGER*** you poor
devils, things are more mixed up than you ever
DREAMED, what was up IS down, the priorities
are all screwy, you're fretting if your hair
looks okay while some new kind of bladder cancer
is busting out the front of your designer jeans,
YES this is "bad talk", nobody will LISTEN to
anything else, you won't LOOK at TV unless
body parts or cars are jiggling or crashing on
it, you won't TASTE your food unless it has some
nerve drug in it, you haven't used your other
senses since you were five, and you sure as hell
won't STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING until someone much
bigger, much stronger and MUCH more self-assured
MAKES you stop, and you'll thank him for it, and
then just before you fry in a flash of radio-
active hindsight you'll realize he stopped you
from doing the WRONG THING, GOOD GOD!! What in
the name of Sweet Screaming Jesus is this world
COMING to? People bitch, people gripe, "THIS is
a sign of the End Times," "THAT'S a sign of the
End Times," when you should all be hollering,
"IT'S **ALL** A SIGN OF THE END TIMES!!!"
- Prescriptures, 6:6
The evidence is literally ALL AROUND YOU. Look at the hocus-pocus
peddled in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN and they're behind those words. Look
in the ever-mutating "HOLY" BIBLE and they're behind it. They're behind
HIGHLIGHTS for "Bob's" sake. EARTH IS THEIR THIRD WORLD.
You think I'm kidding, or crazy, or both. I *AM* crazy, and I *AM*
kidding. Uranium dust in the air over Ohio HA HA! Citizens abducted
by CIA for horrible mind-control experiments YUK YUK! Psychotic NAZIs
running the State Department HO HO!
FINAL NOTICE BEFORE DISCONNECTION
Ever wonder why the Pentagon is shaped like that?
Notice the funny weather lately?
.
DEATH . .. You eat a lot of acid, Miller,
. . . back in the hippie days?
. . . . - Otto Maddox
. .. . . . .
. . . . . ..
. . . . . . .
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Msg #: 1094 SKEP Subboard
From: JIM GALASYN Sent: 04-12-90 17:16
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-18-90 08:03
Re: THIS IS SKEPTICISM? (WAS
From: jpg3196@tahoma.UUCP (Jim Galasyn)
Date: 28 Mar 90 22:22:59 GMT
Organization: The Boeing Co., BCA FSL, Seattle, WA
Message-ID: <1021@tahoma.UUCP>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
James Preston writes:
>I had many opportunities to verify with my own senses many of the phenomena
>you cite. I have seen, with my own eyes, effects of sub-atomic particles;
>I have seen the "particles" called electrons produce wave-like interference
>patterns, and the "waves" of electro-magnetic radiation behave in a
discrete
>particle-like manner.
Allow me to rephrase this skeptically: You BELIEVE you saw interference
patterns from which you deduce that such things as wave-particle electrons
"exist". This is dubious epistemology. Hume is spinning is his grave.
>Of course, so long as the evidence meets the criteria for what is considered
>hard evidence. The mere word of someone saying, "I saw it" hardly
qualifies.
>A scientific research project, with published, verified data to back it up
>is an entirely different matter.
The mere word of hundreds, of THOUSANDS, of n-as-n-approaches-infinity people
hardly qualifies as "hard" evidence. Why should I believe in the
perceptions
of many people if I don't believe in the perceptions of a single person? If
I
don't even believe in MY OWN perceptions? Where do we draw the line between
a priori and empirical knowledge?
Lotta fair-weather skeptics in this group...
. "You don't have many suspects who
DEATH . .. are innocent of a crime. That's
. . . contradictory. If a person is innocent
. . . . of a crime, then he is not a suspect."
. .. . . . . - Edwin Meese III
. . . . . ..
. . . . . . .
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Msg #: 1095 SKEP Subboard
From: ERIC IVERSON Sent: 04-12-90 17:16
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-19-90 08:03
Re: (R)HELP! MY GRANDMOTHER
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Date: 31 Mar 90 20:54:09 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Message-ID:
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <28475@cup.portal.com> mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson)
writes:
> It's recently been discovered that my grandmother, who is 91, has been
> regularly sending large checks to the TV preacher Dr. Kennedy. The largest
> check so far seems to have been one for $1000.
>
> I know almost nothing about this guy, other than that he is based in Coral
> Gables, FL, and appears on TV throughout the U.S. Can anybody supply me
> with any critical information about him, something that might help convince
> my grandmother that her money is best spent elsewhere.
Why does your grandmother need any evidence to convince her? It
certainly didn't take any evidence to convince you. Or does the fact
that the guy appears on TV automatically mean he's a con artist? I
suggest you check your facts *before* you jump to any conclusions
about this guy.
Now if your grandmother can't afford to pay out that kind of money,
that's another matter entirely....
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Gruntpig production, in association with the Rat Lab Steamworks.
Eric Iverson, president. Eric IVerson, emperor. ERiC IVerSoN, DeMIgOd!!!
eiverson@nmsu.edu "I want to kill everyone here with a cute
Computing Research Lab colorful Hydrogen Bomb!!"
New Mexico State University -Zippy the Pinhead
--- ConfMail V3.3
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Msg #: 1096 SKEP Subboard
From: JAMES D DOLAN Sent: 04-12-90 17:17
To: ALL Rcvd: 04-16-90 19:02
Re: (R)HOW MANY PEOPLE? 100B
From: v088kj6a@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (James D Dolan)
Date: 31 Mar 90 18:27:21 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
Message-ID: <20372@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
In article <53633@bbn.COM>, ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes...
|In article <1778@speedy.mcnc.org> kgreer@mcnc.org.UUCP (Ken Greer) writes:
..
|> A couple of years ago, so I don't recall the source, I heard that
|>there are(were) as many people alive now as have ever lived. So I
|>guess that would mean instead of 2.5 - 8.8 %, it would be ~50%.
..
|> The explanation given was that in early times, the "critical mass"
|>just wasn't there in sufficient locations to really start up the
|>growth process - so the population just hovered around the same total
|>without the relatively high growth rate we have today. The total
|>population eventually was dense enough that people could more
|>efficiently find mates.
|
|This doesn't make sense either. The real reasons for explosive population
|growth have been technological (e.g. the development of agriculture).
|There have *always* been enough people around --and mates easy enough to
|find-- to fuel growth.
|
|Granted, once a carrying capacity has been reached, a population may stay
|at a fixed value for a long time, but if it does so for a *long* time (and
|we're talking tens of thousands of years) it will still add up.
I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT YOUR MAIN POINT IS, BUT IN ANY CASE I THINK YOU'RE
UNDERSTATING THE NONSENSICALNESS OF THE ORIGINAL POST. WITH HUMAN POPULATION
ABLE TO DOUBLE IN WELL UNDER AN AVERAGE LIFETIME, BASICALLY THE _ONLY_ WAY TO
AVOID HAVING THE CURRENT POPULATION BE MORE THAN 50% OF THOSE WHO EVER LIVED
IS
TO HAVE HAD LONG PERIODS IN THE PAST WHEN GROWTH WAS RELATIVELY STAGNANT.
GREER'S "EXPLANATION" OF HOW TO ACHIEVE THE 50% LEVEL IN FACT EXPLAINS
PRACTICALLY THE ONLY WAY TO AVOID THE 50% LEVEL.
JAMES DOLAN, MATH DEPT., SUNY AT BUFFALO
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