- <> Exclusive : The Mickus/ Fenwick Interview -
THE CRUCIBLE <> 416-244-9999 - 24Hrs - 12/24/96 - (1:223/264)
On November 6th/88, Lawrence (Larry) Fenwick, noted Canadian
UFOlogist was interviewed for ParaNet on Sunday afternoon at
the Toronto residence of ParaNet Pi Sysop, Tom Mickus. He had
previously agreed to this interview, with the full knowledge
that it was being taped, and that the transcript would be
released for distribution on the North American ParaNet System.
He spoke for approximately 4 hours, of which approximately
170 minutes were taped. During that time Larry spoke frankly
and in some depth on a number of issues and events current
to UFOlogy. The interview was done at my request, and Larry
graciously assented to agree to the exchange, without any
strings attached. Additionally, no money was exchanged.
Although an interview, much the dialogue is in conversational
style, appropriate for the informal setting which we were in.
Regarding the content you are about to read, Larry neither
makes the claim that this is original information, or
that he knows all of it. But as you will see, he does have
some pieces of the puzzle, in my estimation. Before the
interview, I gave him every right to protect his sources,
as well as have certain portions of the interview "off
the record". While he has withheld some names, none of
the substance of what we discussed was held back. Its
all here for you to examine and evaluate.
As I've mentioned, approximately 170 mins of our exchange
was suppposed to have been on tape. However, after the
interview, and to my extreme chagrin, I soon realized that
the first 45 mins of the tape was almost blank, and the A-B,
C-D order of the 4 sides seems to be haphazard. I am puzzled
as to what happened, but at this point blame the recording
device for screwing up...and of course also blame myself for
not ensuring the integrity of the recording device, although
the process was monitored throughout...and I am genuinely
perplexed as to how this had happened. What I have therefore
done, is to paraphrase the dialogue as much as possible, in
order to bring out the 'highlights' of what we discussed in
the first 45 mins. About one third of that had contained an
in-depth bio of interviewee Larry Fenwick. Perhaps on a
subsequent occasion, Larry can recount some of the
information which we covered, a good portion which included
commentary on the two recent TV productions, namely that of
"UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - the Gulf Breeze segment", and of
course "UFO-Coverup LIVE". For the time being, to the best
of my recollection, some of what Larry brought up will be
included in an appendix at the end of the formal transcript.
One last note...this entire effort on my own part has
consumed almost exclusively 4 days of my life. The transcibing
process took close to 40 Hours, using simple tape recorders.
Every effort has been made to insure the integrity of the
dialogue of the part of Larry Fenwick. I can confidently say
that I have reproduced accurately 99% of what Larry Fenwick
said in the 125 mins of taped dialogue which was intact.
The 40 Hours of time I think reflects this. My own dialogue,
sparse as it is, is about 90% accurate. In some areas I have
clarified my questions.
Throughout, you will notice the use of square brackets [ ],
these are added in by myself in areas that required some
clarification...especially when certain mannerisms, inflection
of speech, pause in speech etc., didn't "translate" into
the written word sufficiently. Whereever you find words
capitalized, that will indicate a word strongly emphasized,
and indeed I have added this clarification in most of the
Lastly, although you may find some hints as to my interests
and positions on various aspects of the UFO issue, I have
not as yet come out in favour of, or against, most of what
Larry Fenwick has said. For me, in part, the jury is still
out. Having said that, I cannot help feel that much of what
Larry Fenwick has enuciated here is quite significant. There
should be enough information here for sleuthing armchair
UFOlogists to get involved in, and to track down. The information
conspiracy must end...the people must know. If what Larry and
others say is true, even a part of it...then we don't have
much time. In closing, I encourage you to spread the transcript
of this file onto other Bulletin Board Systems. If it acts as
a catalyst for action...pro or con...then it will have served
-Tom Mickus 11/10/88
[The transcript begins at the near the end of side 1...]
"...on the air, and they went up and interviewed Robert
Sufferin [sp?], and they got him on camera, and he was
interviewed on Channel 9 [CFTO Toronto], on the local
news. ...well there was a deluge of phone calls, and
people started descending en masse, on Robert Sufferin's
property. About 2,000 - 3,000 people descended onto his
property. They were there day and night, from all over
"And what year was this?"
"1975. This was in October of '75. The agreement between
the aliens and the American gov't, [with] the intelligence
agencies, was made in June of that year."
"June of '75..."
"That's right. Thats when the agreement was..., for the
exchange of technology was made. One month to the date,
after that 'event' occurred to Robert Sufferin, he got
a telephone call from Falconbridge Air Force Base from
a lieutenant, who asked if he and his wife would be
willing to undergo psychological tests. A battery of tests.
He agreed, so did his wife. They took him...I don't know
when this occurred, fairly soon after that,...nor do I
know where the tests were administered. I would assume
somewhere in southern Ontario. They gave him tests, and
so on. And a month later..."
[ tape change ]
"...now the information that we found out, and that I
just described, was as a result of an interview that
Harry and Joe and I did with Robert Sufferin on his
property. We weren't allowed to make to make notes,
until we got into our car. No tape-recorders, no
photographs. He talked extensively, for several hours,
about UFOs in general, about various topics. This was
the 2nd of two interviews done with him. I wasn't
present at the first one..., there was a gentlemen by
the name of Wayne Forsyth who was doing a documentary
for public schools or high schools on UFOs, who was
with Harry and Joe the first time he was interviewed,
and his wife was also there. Now we only talked with
Robert when I was there. He said...he told us about
this incident [UFO hovering over his barn, and another
one which landed for 'repairs' in the adjacent field,
then both flew off after a short time...neighbor
phoned Sufferin to tell him that he thought his barn
was on fire, which it wasn't...the UFO hovering above
was extremely bright and luminouscent], and he told
us about the telephone call from Falconbridge Air
Force Base, and about the incident where three men
showed up in full military uniform on Dec.7th, 1975.
They came in an O.P.P. [Ontario Provincial Police]
cruiser, unmarked...an unmarked cruiser, driven by
the head of the detachment of the O.P.P. Bracebridge,
who has since denied that he was ever there, to one
of our members [CUFORN] who was his best friend. In
other words, he lied to his best friend. He said,
'that no cruiser was ever sent up there...impossible.'
The three men who visited him [Sufferin], one was the
lieutenant from Falconbridge Air Force Base, the
other two were from the United States. One from the
Air Force Office of Special Investigations, AFOSI, and
the other officer was from the Office of Naval
Intelligence. As you know, OSI and the ONI are part of
the Project Aquarius unit. They are all linked together,
as you saw in the Oct. 14 television show. They brought
with them a portfolio...a book...whether it was the
'yellow book' written by the alien or not, I don't know.
It was quite thick he said, hundreds of pages long."
"The yellow book goes back to..."
"That was written by an alien, for the Americans."
"And when did they originally get that?"
"They got that in 1975, in June of '75, under the agreement.
The alien actually wrote it out...and it was used.
...Now what Robert was shown was a series of photographs,
full colour, dating back to WW II...close-up photographs
in broad daylight of UFOs...which were POSED [his emphasis]
In other words, the aliens stopped the craft, and allowed
pictures to be taken. And these were all gun-camera
photographs, taken from jet aircraft...from various aircraft.
A pile of them...a pile of them. And they were all 8 1/2
by 10 glossies. He was shown these photographs. He was also
told several things. They told him that when the incident
occurred...right to the minute. He had not told his
wife or his sister that he had noticed the exact time of
this landing, or landings we should say, on his property.
They told him why the landings occurred...what happened.
There was a landing for repairs to one of the craft. The
other one hovered over the barn...the one in the field
had some problems...mechanical problems. It took off,
finally it got out of there. They told him this, and he
didn't know why [they were telling him]. And they
apologized for the landing on his property, they told
him why the UFOs are here on this planet...what they
represent, and where they are from. They also told him
that they knew of the previous two sightings he had had
with his brother-in-law on several nights prior to that
incident. They had been on his property and been looking
out the window, and a couple of over-flights had occurred
of UFOs. He hadn't told a soul about that, not even his
wife, only his brother-in-law had known. So there is no
way that they could have known, unless they were in contact
with the aliens when it happened. They said that they had
tracked these UFOs on radar..., at Air Force bases its done
all the time, except that the 'unknowns' are never
publicized. They always say when someone calls in and says,
'We have a report of a UFO...did you track anything on your
radio at Downsview Air Force Base or Falconbridge or
Toronto International Airport...or ANY airport in the
Western world?" Their orders are [to say] 'No.' Deny, deny
deny...right down the line. And we surmised this ourselves
although this was confirmed.
The interview proceeded thusly, as Roberts said. They gave
him a telephone number to call...and unlisted, unpublished
telephone number to call in case there were any further
incidents on his property. And they said that there had
been an agreement...an agreement made with the aliens
between the American government and the aliens. And they
told him a few things about a long range program...or
plan, a master plan they called it, which was underway.
Now that's all that Robert Sufferin told us in 2 hours.
We talked about things other than UFOlogy for most of the
time. As we left the property...we were about 35-40 feet
away from Bob, and he called out to us. This was in
daytime, and we were going back to our car. He called out
to us, [and] he made this statement...and we wrote it
down in the car, 'What was the cause of WW II?'
He had been told..., the classified information about the
programming of Hitler..to cause WW II. And we did an
article about the case, with the exception of that statement.
As we thought it didn't fit in.
And in 1982 we found out the information..which I have just
told you. We are way ahead of the game as far as that TV
show is concerned [UFO-Coverup LIVE]. We know a little about
what was mentioned by Condor and Falcon, plus more. At
that point in 1982 we found this information out. This was
7 years after the Sufferin incident. We didn't interview
Robert Sufferin until 1978 by the way. He had remembered
what had occurred in 1975, a few years earlier. This is in
the summer of '78. So...we had made the notes, and in 1982
we had heard this information. In 1983 I was looking
through some old files, and I came across the Sufferin
incident...and we had written up an article on it [previously]
in a small journal that Harry Tokarz had churned out on his
own. It ran about 4 issues, it was called "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
and he had mentioned this in an article. And I looked at
the notes, and see in the margin there, "What was the
cause of WW II", which I had written down in the margin.
And I wrote down below that, 'What has this got to do with
UFOs?'. At that time we didn't know. And later on we found
"Bill Moore was in touch with Robert Sufferin by phone, in
our presence. He phoned him. We gave him the phone number."
"No...actually this was in 1981. He was here in Toronto, and
he called Bob up in Utterson, Ontario, where Bob lived at
the time. Bob still owns the property, but we don't know
where he lives now, he's moved around a bit. So Bill Moore
talked to him on the phone...we didn't hear what Bob said
on the other end of the line, but Bill said that he
confirmed what I suspected. Bill had heard a little bit
in 1980. He got the documents in 1982 on Aquarius and this
sort of thing...MJ-12. But he had heard a little bit. The
agreement was mentioned. I know that Bill mentioned the
agreement on the phone..., he knew about that. How?, I
don't know. But that was the clue. Now I asked Bill..."
"The world war II thing?"
"Yes. That programming had been done."
"Just to clarify...did someone ask him this question?"
"No...this was separate [from the interview]. As we were
leaving, he just blurted that out. Robert Sufferin just
blurted it out."
"So he just said it to you [unsolicited]?"
"Yes, out loud. He yelled it out after us as we were
walking back toward our car."
"And that was it?"
"Yes, that was all. We didn't ask him. What the hells he
talking about [they said to each other]. We just walked
on to the car...made a note of it,...I wrote down right
behind the note, 'What has this got to do with UFOs?'
We couldn't see any connection at all at that time. And
it was only in 1983 that I happened to come across the
statement that I had written out in the rough notes for
that article which was done for that "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
magazine. My goodness, that was it. The year before we
had found out about the connection. In '83 I saw that
little note, and I said, 'My God...he was told the truth'.
And later on...in 1982 there was this symposium...the
MUFON symposium in Toronto at the Westbury Hotel. I
talked to Bill Moore privately at that point. He was
one of the speakers there...and I helped run the
convention a little bit, and I said to Bill, 'You know
the Robert Sufferin case?" He said [Moore], "Yeah, I
remember that." [Fenwick] Because he had read the whole
article, and so on; and I had told him what had transpired
and so on, and he was quite interested in that. And I
said to him, '...when those three military officers
talked to Sufferin, they really gave him everything on
this Project Aquarius, it seems to me.' Then I said to
Bill, 'Do you think that this has happened prior to...a
month or two prior to somebody else maybe?' [making
reference to the 1975 Sufferin incident] And he said,
'Yeah, in the United States it happened twice, between
June and October' . Two other people were told
in the United States the same information was given to
"In '75 yes, just after that."
"So those two would have been before the agreement [U.S.-
EBE agreement] then, right?"
"No, the agreement was in June of 1975. The Robert
Sufferin case occurred on October 7th. Somewhere between
June and October of '75, two other close encounters
occurred in the United States in which aliens had
nearly been killed...by a car or whatever, I don't
know how. But Bill wouldn't go into detail on that. I
questioned him, but he refused to go into any detail
on that. He knew about it...through Condor and Falcon.
And it was a test of the psychological reactions of
people to the fact that we are the ETs [in reference to
earlier statements by Fenwick as to our alien heritage]
...this is not our home planet."
"So that was the reason for spilling the beans to these
three, relatively simple folk?"
"Yes, thats right. And there's something else also...
When Tracy Torme visited Toronto, he worked for CTV
[Canadian Television Network], he was a script-writer
for them; he arranged in advance, through Bill Moore, to
visit us...in my apartment in fact. And he talked a little
bit about what he had heard. Later on he told us all that
I have told you...through Bill. He got it through Bill
Moore. We asked him what the classified information would
mean to the human race. What areas of the human race...of
human endeavour or aspects of human interest [that] would
be most affected if ALL the information about Project
Aquarius came out in the open. And he unhesitatingly said,
'Religion.' He said that there would be mass suicides,
those who were extremely religious among the Christian
community would commit suicide. And he said, anthropology,
..Science would be heavily affected by it. Anthropology,
History..., you take just WW II [for example]. If the
historians knew that...and they are not on a need to know
basis, they are not going to be told unless the entire
world knows. This would create one of the biggest upheavals
in all the universities, and all the history teachers in
the world, and professors, would really be astounded if
they knew that that was fact. And he said that a lot people
wouldn't believe it if it were told to the public. There
would be some panic, there would be suicides. I said, 'well
maybe there wouldn't be that many', but he said [Torme]
'Yes, there would be a fair number...in the millions'.
But there are billions of people in the world, so that
percentage wise its not a lot. But, 'This is why,' he
said [speaking again of Torme] 'the information is not
being told to the public. Because it would affect people
"The War-of-the-Worlds syndrome?"
"Yes, that's right. That is their mental attitude...the
people in Project Aquarius who don't want the information
released,...not [the attitude] of the 10 people who have
talked [Condor & Falcon being 2 of the 10] out of the 24.
There are 24 people in Aquarius, total. 10 of the 24 have
talked. The other 14 don't want the information released
because they have that attitude...War-of-the-World's
thing...mass panic and so on. And I think that in the
atomic age that we live in, we're passed that stage...if
you can learn to live with the Bomb...and not worry that
much outwardly...maybe inwardly I guess. This generation
is used to that threat hanging over them. If they heard
this information, it wouldn't upset this generation, the
present generation as much. And this attitude of the
younger generatiomn...of not being upset too much about
it is why those people have talked, why the rebels have
talked." By the way, the rebels are Vietnam veterans."
"All 10 of them?"
"All of them. They're all Nam veterans."
"And what is the range of rankings, and their ages?"
"From Colonel up to..., well one of them is a 2-star
General. I don't know any names. I know Condor is a
black man by the way. They were in Nam, and they saw
their own officers kill their own men under the
influence of drugs. And they decided that whatever they
did in peacetime, somehow they would get back at the
American government. They all...these happened by
coincidence, or not,...to all get involved in the UFO
phenomenon. And these people in Aquarius are full-time
on it. And they decided..., they got together...over a
period of time, very clandestinely,...and word went
from one to another, [in effect agreeing that they]
'...would approach someone neutral in the UFO field,
someone who is not affiliated with any major
organizations, someone who is reliable...' And they
picked on Bill Moore. And he got a telephone call
from one of them, and they arranged to meet...I think
it was at a 'McDonalds' in fact...in Phoenix if I'm
not mistaken. Bill mentioned this."
"There's a lot of information that we have gotten.
Now, Tracy Torme told us that he had heard this from
Bill Moore, and Bill was under sedation for back
trouble. Bill started talking...and didn't realize it.
And Tracy told us, 'Don't tell ANYONE that you got
the information from Bill Moore. And to this day, Bill
Moore doesn't know that we got it through Tracy. He
wasn't supposed to reveal it. He told us about 15%...
15% of the classified information under Project Aquarius."
"That he [Torme] knows?"
"That he knows. He knows all of it. So does Bill Moore,
Bill told him everything."
"Torme knows all of it?"
"Torme knows all of it, and so does Moore. Bill Moore
told Torme this. Torme is, by the way the son, the oldest
son of Mel Torme the singer. I've met Mel in town here
one time. This is what he told us. He said [Tracy], 'I
can't tell you anymore.' And he later on told Moore to...
[?] ..Harry and Joe near New York city. They drove down
there with their wives or girlfriends whatever, and they
met him in a motel...and he started talking...and he
wouldn't allow them to make notes. Nothing, just verbal.
Hear it, and remember it. And he told me when they came
back. Outdoors we were walking along the street one night,
and it's dark, and they're telling me when no one was
around...there was no one within sight, in the area I
live in. So that no one would over hear...not that a
satellite couldn't pick-up the conversation...but
certainly no one on the ground, so they were careful in
One thing you have to remember, when you are talking about
the UFO phenomenon...and here I'm showing my conservative
bent..., and that is, let us suppose that the information
posed by Condor and Falcon on that show, and told to Bill
Moore, is all false. That everything is false. Its all
disinformation...or what's know in as 'grey' propaganda,
a bit of truth mixed in with a lot of phony things. Let
us suppose that all of this, all of what I have said to
you about Project Aquarius...[that] the classified
information supposedly, is all false. If in fact it was
deliberately promulgated to test a reaction among
UFOlogists to this sort of information, as to whether they
could follow-up on it...or find out whether it is true
or not. That in itself would be of interest to people in
the UFO field. This is one of the reason's why I am talking
about this information. If its all false, its certainly a
most interesting scenario. And the motivations behind the
spreading of...lies, from a psychological point of view, it
certainly is quite interesting. So I must...as I say...I must
predicate, I must be conservative here, predicate what I
have said as an afterword shall we say, with that statement.
All of what I've said, I'm sure is interesting to people.
Some of it to some people might be unbelievable, some of it
might be astonishing, some of the people might agree with
some of the things said, [saying to themselves], 'that sounds
plausible'. But when you use 'grey' propaganda, you mix in
plausible things with things that are false. That was done
with that television program show in England, called,
"Alternative 3"...they mixed in a few facts with a lot of
baloney. I have a letter from the guy who wrote the script,
on how they dreamed it up at lunch-time one day."
"Its interesting that you mention that. John Lear was one
of the first people I met on ParaNet, and we had a bit of a
dialogue on that very subject. I ended up finding a short
paragraph on it in a movie compendium [see A3MOVIE.TXT in the
UFOlogy File Area], and it ended basically by saying that
the movie was only fiction, but that people still view it
as being true."
"There are still people who believe it. And there have been
mysterious deaths in England lately among people involved
with defense contracts, computer scientists. And I've got
newspaper clippings from England on that, just this last
week. So there is a bit of truth mixed in."
"Which elements in the movie do you think are true?"
"Well, obviously that people have died, but whether they
are coincidental or not, we don't know."
"What about this thing about a Moonbase?"
"No. I don't think so. I've talked to Buzz Aldrin about that
on the phone. And I said, "Ah, somebody's trying to dream up
a story for the National Enquirer...what nonsense.' [Aldrin
said] 'I didn't see any bases on the moon while we were up
there on Apollo 11, thats' a lot of nonsense.' He denied it.
Technically there could be bases on the moon underground, NASA
has the capabilities now, they had them years ago. In the
1960's I wrote a full page article for "Daily Commercial News"
on underground construction on the moon, I still have a copy
of the article. All the technical data is available in the
Toronto Public Library. I did research for weeks and weeks on
"The hard part is getting the equipment up there."
"Thats all. But the actual installation and so on, is not too
"What other elements of the A3 Movie would you see as...."
"Factual? That's all. I've given them to you. That's all."
"Now, these people who are coming up missing, what's
happening to them. They are being killed because of what
"I think that that's a Soviet thing. I think the Soviets are
involved in those..., those murders...those deaths, those
mysterious deaths in England lately."
"Oh, so you don't see those being related in anyway to goings
on in the field of UFOlogy?"
"No, not at all."
"So the A3 Movie then, there's really no relation at all to.."
"...not to UFO's."
"Its more an East-West thing?"
"Yes, primarily that. And a test of reactions I suppose, as
some suspect, by the producers of the show, that's all. They
wanted to see how people would take it."
"And that's a recurring theme..."
"I know it is. I have a whole file on A3...Alternative 3, a
thick file...ending with a letter from the producers."
"Saying that its all a hoax. That they dreamed it up over
lunch one day. I have it on their official letterhead of
their production company."
"And you said that Torme was interested in it?"
"Yeah, he hadn't seen the movie. It wasn't shown in the
states, it was shown in Canada twice on Global TV in
"When did he get in touch with you, years ago?"
"No. Just a month ago. He happened to mention it."
"He's probably gotten that from Lear then..."
"Oh yeah. Lear tends to repeat what he [has] heard. Lear
doesn't in terms of a lot of information on UFOs. Linda
Howe has told me that she was in touch with Lear...and
that they had all kinds of problems there..."
"Disagreements, yes. One's repeating what the other says.
Back and forth, then it spreads around and so on. Rumours...
and things get exaggerated with a rumour, and this is what
has happened with Richard Doty...the Richard Doty case."
"Have you read the so called Lear document, the Lear text?"
"Okay...but what you've heard about John Lear, he's
basically repeating things from other sources."
"Sure. He's not doing any research himself."
"And from what you know of what he's said, I should
probably give you the Lear.txt as to actually read as
he makes a quite a number of claims..."
"I've heard some of the claims through Linda Howe. Linda
"Which of what you heard would you say he is correct or
"I've heard too much...too go into detail"
"What about some of the highlights...crashed disks, there
are supposed to be 30 crashed disks [in the hands of the
"Well, I've heard that years ago. It was an estimate. It
was a guess, that's all. And these guess's get exaggerated
and passed around from one UFOlogist to another. From
someone maybe who's in casual conversation with another,
[and says] 'Maybe there are about 30 of them crashed, who
knows.' And before you know it, its THIRTY."
"Personally, how many do you think?"
"The Roswell one is definite. Also the one at Elindeo [sp?]
Texas, on the Mexican border is definite..."
"And what year is the second one?"
"1980. And then in 1948, the one in Kingmon [sp?] Arizona.
that's a definite one. And I think maybe the one other one
is in Syracuse, New York...in 1967. Those are the only ones
I know of, although I've heard rumours about one in the
Rockies in Canada in 1952. Rumours. Indirect contacts with
someone who is there, this sort of thing."
"And all these crashed due to mechanical problems...none
of them have been shot down?"
"Yes [mechanical problems], except for Roswell. Roswell
wasn't a mechanical problem, Roswell was a lightning
strike. And also there was another crash that occurred in
Michigan, Hillsdale. Dexter Michigan...where Gerald Ford
got involved in calling for a congressional investigation.
That was a crash. That was landing for repairs, put it
"And the one about the farmer's case you mentioned, where
it landed and took off..."
"That wasn't actually a crash, but a landing for repairs.
same in England. That one at Bentwaters, that was a landing
for repairs...and it was repaired, and they took off again."
"Okay, you mention Bentwaters. Maybe we can get into that
a bit. Now do you believe that's true, about what supposedly
"Maybe if you would recount..."
"Well I'm recounting investigations done by other people.
I don't like to do that, its second hand information."
"But you basically believe that..."
"An alien craft landed for repairs, and was assisted in
its repairs by the commander, Commander Williams of the
Air Force base there. Gordon Williams."
"And how many were there?"
"I had heard that there were more than one, lets put it
"And how many air force personnel do you believe
"It depends on what part you're talking about, the
underground meeting, or the above ground meeting.
There were at least a dozen people involved in that
case. And there were military policeman involved. One
chap who wasn't there, who claimed originally to have
been there, was a fellow named Larry Warren. He actually
heard it from someone else, another military policeman
who was at the underground meeting with the Men In Black
[MIB] supposedly. Giving instructions."
"But not much is known about that meeting?"
"No, its only referred to very briefly in the book by
Jenny Randles and Dot Street, 'Skycrash'. There's
another authoress, but I've forgotten her name. I think
there's about one or two sentence about that in the
whole book. And that was probably the most important
aspect of it...and they couldn't get any more information
on that. I've got an unpublished manuscript by Larry
Warren at home...part of one chapter really...about 10
pages. He's writing a book, so he said that this is not
for publication...and he talked about some of his
experiences, not there...but as a Military policeman
being transferred to some secret NSA facilities in
Egypt, and another one in Florida."
"Connected with he doesn't know what. Every American and
Canadian Air Force Base has underground facilities. If
anything were to go in or out, it would be like 3 or 4
in the morning. A UFO comes in for repairs, or whatever.
If you want to deal in rumour...I was on a bus one day
downtown. It was night and I was the only guy on the
bus, and talking to the driver I mentioned UFOs. He said,
'Oh, I wonder if there is any connection with my friend.
This guy I know is a janitor up at Downsview Air Force
Base. And he's in the underground facilities. He said
that you would be amazed as to what's under there', but
he wouldn't go on any further about that. I questioned
him further, but he said he didn't know any more than
"You've obviously heard the claims about the underground
bases, in Nevada..."
"...Nellis Air Force Base. That is the main facility
in Nevada... Apparently that is near Area #51, or
'Dreamland' as its known. But its not on the map.
You'll find Nellis on the map, but you won't find
Dreamland or Area #51 on the map. Its all in the area
where they test the UFOs that are lent to them. There
was one which supposedly crashed in 1984, killing the
Commander, General Robert Bond. And it was on the
front page of the Toronto Star [Major Canadian Daily]
as a crash of a steath weapon. That's how they
publicize it. And even Walt Andrus said that that was
a Stealth weapon...the head of MUFON. Actually it was
a UFO lent to the Americans in 1975, and test flown
all the way up through 1984, when it crashed killing
the pilot, General Robert Bond. If its something
classified, not necessarily stealth, but a UFO lets
say...then you wouldn't have anyone less than a general
flying it. It would be on a need to know basis, you
wouldn't have an ordinary pilot. And when he died, his
wife was told, his family was told that [there] was
a crash of an American Air Force plane...which was
classified, that's all, not a UFO. But is was a UFO.
It had been fitted with jets, but there was a problem
"The same with that case in Texas, where those two women
and the boy..., the Cash-Landrum case. That was one of
the craft lent to them, the diamond-shape one. So they
have different kinds of..."
"So they way it was presented on the show [UFO-Coverup]
was basically correct?"
"Oh yes, it was an alien craft. There's no question
about that. That's what it was. And I had suspected
this for quite some time with John Schussler [sp?]
who had written about this, and lectured about this
at various symposia. I mentioned this, along with
Harry and Joe...all three of us said to John, and
he's with NASA...he worked on the original Shuttle
program, and he's semi-retired now with MacDonnel
Douglas. He's a program director for the shuttle
mission...one of the early shuttle missions. And
we mentioned our theory that it was an alien craft.
And he said, 'I don't think so.'...but now he KNOWS.
That's what it was...there's no question thats what
it was...even though the television show said that
maybe it was an American secret weapon, or maybe it
was an alien craft. They left it up in the air. But
it was an alien craft, there's no much doubt about
"So...over the years you hear all these stories, and
unless you've been there, unless you were there when
the thing happened...that's all they are, Stories.
Second-hand, third-hand information and so on. Unless
you're like Bill Moore, or the people in Project
Aquarius who are on this full-time, you're not going
to find out the truth. You're going to hear what is
purported to be the truth. You'll hear second-hand
stories...you'll hear newspaper accounts...."
"Now here's something that you might not know, and
that is...in relationship to the media, about publicity
of UFOs, you don't see too much in the daily papers
about UFOs, not very much. You do see, almost every week
in the tabloids...tabloid magazines, articles about..oh,
'Aliens Found in Soviet Tundra' or whatever...you know,
all sorts of stories. There are various publications in
the United States. One is called 'The Sun', you have
another one called 'The National Examiner', another one
called 'The Globe', another one called 'Weekly World News',
and there is the "National Enquirer", and 'The Star'."
"The history of those publications, just briefly...
The National Enquirer was the original, the original
tabloid, the largest circulation newspaper in the world
incidentally. The Weekly World News and The National
Enquirer are published by the same company. The publisher
...is with the Central Intelligence Agency. He is...I
believe, Deputy Chief of one of the Divisions to do with
counter-intelligence. When The National Enquirer and The
Weekly World News publish a UFO story, it is true. [With]
the other publications, they are copies of The National
Enquirer. They [other publications] hire freelance writers
who use phony names and bylines, and print stories which
are false, in most instances. 90% of those stories in The
National Examiner, and The Globe, and The Sun, and The Star
...The Star doesn't publish that sort of thing anymore but
they used to...; are phony stories. Now, if you were to
publish the stories that are in The National Enquirer, and
The Weekly World News, on the front page of The New York
Times or The Washington Post or The Globe & Mail, it
would really upset people. But if you publish them in
tabloids...where all the stories are sensational...at least
the headlines are sensational, then they don't stand out,
and they don't frighten people. People tend to laugh at them
and say 'Oh well, its all phony'. But if you are in the UFO
field, you find out that stories are not phony. You follow
up on them, and you find out that they are actual cases.
The general public doesn't know that they are."
"But the names of Doctors, etc., within the articles are..."
"...True. In The [National] Enquirer and The Weekly World
"The actual names are true?"
"Yes. Those are the real names. But in the other journals,
The Examiner, The Globe, The Sun, they put phony names all
the way through and phony stories, and so on. Even the
writers are using phony names."
"Do you know the publisher's name off-hand? Its listed of
"No, I know that he's a 'Jr.', his father has the same
name. All you have to do is look in The National Enquirer
and you'll see the publisher's name there."
"In that particular magazine, is it just him himself, or
are there other's involved too?"
"No, just him himself. He gets the stories from Aquarius...
and from MJ-12."
"The rebels, or the..."
"The rebels. I think he's working with them. I'm not certain
about that, I can't be certain about that...maybe not. And
publishes them [UFO stories] to see what kind of reaction
they get from the readers...[to see] who sends in letters
to those articles."
"Okay...before we follow-up on the media thing; MJ-12 has
"No. 12. Project Aquarius has 24 members. Two different
"Now what's their relationship?"
"A direct relationship. Project Aquarius is the overall
umbrella organization. MJ-12, Majestic Twelve are the
people who work with ONI on field investigations. They
go to the crash sites; they have the meetins with the
aliens, along with Aquarius people. Aquarius people
don't get involved with the crashes. The MJ-12 people
do that...they are scientists, and military people and
so on. They work as a team. They are flown out...at a
moments notice...from wherever they are."
"The MJ-12 Group?"
"Yes. The Aquarius people, they do the overall supervision
of the MJ-12 people. And they get information from all
sorts of sources, like the CIA, the DIA, and so on... the
National Intelligence Agency and so on. And they are the
umbrella organization. They co-ordinate everything. The
Navy does the field investigations along with MJ-12.
There's always someone from the Navy on MJ-12. Usually
the Secretary of the Navy...someone big like that. So
they get an overall view on Aquarius of what's going on.
And they decide the policy."
"But...since 1975 they have NOT been deciding policy. The
aliens...the EBEs...tell the people at Project Aquarius
how to handle the whole thing. Under the agreement...'Do
Not Reveal Our Presence, or We Will Interfere With Your
History.' And it was mentioned on that TV show [UFO Coverup]
...and they ARE going to interfere in our History, that is
why we are going to have World War III."
"Now getting back...I'm going to digress a little bit.
There were three books written in the last 8 years. By
a fellow from Northern Ireland with the initials, W.A.
Harbinson. According to...I can't recall who told me this,
whether it was Bill Moore or Tracy Torme...worked [Harbinson]
with the National Security Agency. He wrote three books. One
called 'Genesis', which talks about the Nazi's in the South
Pole...developing UFO's and this sort of thing; a rather
interesting book. And if you read the end of the book, its
a fictional book...until you read the end there is about
12 pages of footnotes. References to 'samizdat'...the neo-Nazi
group in Toronto, and their publications...and a lot of Nazi
books, a lot of military books by a fellow by the name of
Walther Horndorffer [sp?], and several other books, quite a
few books actually mentioned there, and famous books on
UFOlogy. All this information comes from those books...but
if you didn't go to the appendix at the end of the book, you
wouldn't know that if you had just read the novel and said,
'the heck with the rest of it, I won't bother reading it',
you wouldn't realize that that's all based on fact. The
names have been changed in most cases."
"Then he wrote another book called 'Revelation'. And a third
book called 'The Light of Eden'. I've read all three books.
And I think that they are a TEST of how people would react
to those books, [as in] how many people had written to the
author...what did they have to say about it...how much do
they know. They are trying to find out who might know, who
has found out some of this classified information that
shouldn't know. Now, the second book 'Revelaton'...there's
a lot of sex in these books, the third book particularly..
each one had sexual stories in it, a couple of stories,
very explicit stuff though. The second book 'Revelation',
takes place in a little town; which is in existence, is
called Armageddon in Israel. And what happens...now this
is supposedly in 1990...at that town there is a confrontation
between two individuals...I use the word individuals, lets
say entities or individuals. Just prior to that there has
been a bomb explosion at the most holy shrine of the Muslims
[in Mecca]. The bomb has been thrown by a muslim...and the
Jews are blamed. A holy war, or jihad is underway at that
point, and the Americans and Soviets come in with everything
they've got. And there's a war between the Americans and
the Soviets...and the Arabs and the Jews, all together."
"The Soviets leave their country unprotected...meanwhile
the Chinese come in and invade the Soviet Union and
takeover the country. Takeover the entire Soviet Union.
Takeover the entire country."
"This is all detailed in the book of course..."
"Yes. Part of it. Part of it I got from another source,
from a former member [CUFORN], now deceased. The two
individuals I mentioned earlier are the Anti-christ or
Devil...the devil incarnate shall we say. And the Jewish
Saviour, not Christ. The real Jewish Saviour who has yet
to arrive according to the Jewish Talmud [Note: Some
Christian Fundamentalists would view such a figure as the
biblical 'False Prophet'] He will arrive in our time.
That will be 1990, its only 2 years from now. At that
location, in the midst of the war...war will have been
underway...and it will not be a nuclear war to start with,
but it will end up that way on July 7th, 1999...a nuclear
war between the Chinese and the Americans. And we will all
be 'gone' with the exception of certain people who had
been abducted, who will supposedly be taken off this
planet by mother ships, large carrier craft [to be] taken
somewhere else and maybe brought back somehow, or taken
to some other planet. Maybe they will be cryogenetically
frozen or something, I don't know. Taken to another 'time'
and brought back to planet Earth when all the radiation
has died down in 200 or 300 years...and woken up whatever,
I don't know how they do it...maybe re-seed the planet,
whatever they do. But get the abductees of here for some
reason...maybe genetic...maybe they are going to inter-
breed, create a muscular species. The species [EBEs] don't
have much muscles."
"There's already inter-breeding going on."
"Yes, there is inter-breeding already going on....When men
and women are abducted their is ova extracted, and semen
extracted and so on. This is going on for various reasons.
But genetically, they want to improve their...,get a
hybrid race that will have their brains, and our muscles.
Basically they are very weak, physically. But they have
a lot of mental capacity...they can lift all kinds of
objects with their minds; they are so powerful with their
telekinetic abilities. So I think that when you read these
books...the three books by Harbinson, you are being tested.
Now, getting back to Armageddon... The war between the
Arabs and the Jews, and the Soviets and the Americans...
all involved at once; will last 9 years. The Soviet Air
Force, Army and Navy...everything will be wiped out by
the Americans. The Americans will win that battle...the
Jews will win the battle. The Arabs and the Soviets will
be wiped out...everything will be gone."
"That they've sent there..."
"Yes. Everything is wiped out. The Soviets will have
nothing left in the Soviet Union. They'll have sent
everything they've got to Israel. Everything. They'll
have left themselves defenceless because they figure
that this is the opportune time to takeover that area,
which is oil-rich. Obviously they would want that, so
they will pull out all the stops. And the war will last
from 1990 to 1999. On July 7th of 1999, the nuclear
holocaust will occur. That's the date that Nostradamus
predicted in his book...books, in his predictions.
That very date."
"Are you going off that, or is that just a coincidence?"
"I'll tell you something else, this is from another source.
I mentioned a deceased member of our organization...his
name is Charlie Alcock Charlie has a fascinating history
If you've ever heard of Alcock & Brouwn, they flew the
Atlantic before Lindburgh, as a team. Sir Charles Alcock,
was Charlie Alcock's first cousin. Charlie was a pilot who
flew in various air races, in Cleveland...various races,
etc. He flew for won a race for England, and was given an
escorted Helicopter tour of London, with Price Phillip at
the controls, and was given a surprise dinner with the
Royal Family. He ran a joke shop of all things, while
living here in Toronto. He had died of a second stroke."
"He had had a sighting of a UFO and had told his friend who
happened to be Commander of Wordsmith [sp?] Air Force Base
in Michigan, around Sudbury [Ontario] when they went skeet
shooting one time. The friendship was terminated at that
point. When Charlie talked to me, he said that the commander
said, 'I'm not going to get together with you anymore, I
don't want to talk about UFOs, and if you are going to talk
this way, forget our friendship.' And that was it. Charlie
said, 'Goodbye, I don't need you anymore.' When Charlie had
his first stroke, he was sent to a Toronto hospital. He
was up at ambulatory at the time, and 4 people from CUFORN
interviewed him and tape-recorded the conversation, a 1-hour
tape which I have at home. He had a Men-Black-Incident [MIB]
in the hospital. He had talked to someone about the UFO
event in the hospital, one of the other patients. And just
the night after that he had a visit in his bedside at night
by an entity all dressed in black...who warned him not to
talk any further about this."
"Charlie mentioned something on the tape which I have,
of an incident which took place in the 1930's, when he
was in high school in grade nine."
"Some thought came to him during class, something about
in the future. He doesn't know how it came to him. He
started doodling, and did some drawings. The teacher
saw him doodling, took a look at the pictures, and then
confiscated them. After the class, Charlie was asked to
stay, and the teacher asked him what were the drawings.
He said they just came to me. She then went to speak to
the principal about the drawings."
"What Charlie had drawn was a map of the world. And in
very large drawing form he draw a series of tanks. And
in front of each tank there was a large plexi-glass sort
of shield, through the plexi-glass shield there was an
opening, through those openings are what looked like
laser beams shooting out...now this was in the 1930's.
And the tanks were placed in a sequence, one after
another...coming from China into the Soviet Union. And
on several other places on the map, he didn't remember
where...there were several mushroom shaped clouds. The
principal did not let it stand at that point. He called
Ottawa. The next day an official, I don't know at what
rank, from the Department of National Defense, showed
up and started talking to Charlie. Here's a grade 9
kid talking to someone from the Ministry of National
Defense, who asked him where he got these ideas. Charlie
said, 'I had a dream I think, maybe it came from that
dream. And I started drawing what I had seen in the
dream.' He had dreamt the future...he had dreamt about
World War III. And the DND now knows."
"Do you have the drawings?"
"No. They were confiscated. The one drawing may still
be in a file somewhere in Ottawa. And Charlie described
this to us, and he said, ' I think I may have had a
premonition of the future at that time.' And someone in
the 1930's at DND must have known something important...
about Einstein, and maybe a bomb could be developed from
E=mc2 or something. Maybe Einstein had been in touch
with some scientists in Ottawa...who knows? And maybe
that was why that trip was made down from Ottawa to
Toronto to visit this grade 9 kid. And that is quite a
story. Now, Charlie worked at Camp X, where spies were
trained in WW II. He knew what was going on at Camp X,
he had met David Niven out there, and a few other people
who were trained as spies in Europe. He had quite a story
to tell, and its all on this tape anyway. But thats all
that Charlie had to say in relationship to...what turns
out to be, or may turn out to be Project Aquarius
information...classified information, about what is to
happen in our future."
"Getting back to the Harbinson books, I got the sense
too, cause I've just finished reading 'The Light of Eden'
Are you saying that certain elements of what he is saying
is true? For instance, Harbinson seems to go off of Robert
K. Temple's book 'The Sirius Mystery'. He believes that
they're [aliens] are from there..."
"...well some of them are."
"...and that they have been coming in different periods
of our history to..."
"Interfacing, causing things to happen. Well Sirius is one
of the sources. Zeta Reticuli is one supposedly, and Sirius
is another, and the Pleiades maybe another one. I've heard
about one or two others, but mostly these ones."
"But you personally would lean towards..."
"I would say Zeta Reticuli is the most logical one because
that was in the Betty and Barney Hill case. That was
discovered later on, years later once they researched it.
Thats where they were from. Sirius is probably the second
[likeliest] possibility. The Pleiades one is a very
controversial one. That's the Eduard Meier Swiss case,
which may or may not be true. I just got a book of some
of the writings of the Pleiades people given to Meier,
about 150 pages [which contain] some of the things that
were not on the three videos that were produced in
connection with the Meier case, which I have at home."
"How does this mesh with the 'failed experiment'
[referring to what we talked about in the first 45 mins
of the interview which was 'lost'], because a lot of
the talk is that we are entering into a 'new age' of..."
"...the Age of Aquarius. We're in it. Let me talk about
something that happened in 1983, in my apartment. Most
of the CUFORN members attended from the Toronto area.
Bill Moore was in town."
"He was there?"
"He was there, in my apartment. He made a little speech.
Very short. He stood up in the middle of the apartment.
I remember that I was sitting on the couch at the time,
and everyone was standing around or sitting around, I
haven't got a big apartment...there were about 20 people
there. I mentioned Project Aquarius to him as he had
sent a telex, the 'stolen telex', we looked it over...
we published it in fact. And I said, 'What, do you
any more about Project Aquarius?" And he said, 'Well,
I'll tell you something that's connected. In 1990
something's going to happen on planet Earth which will
change the course of human history forever, in 1990'.
And I said, 'Well, how important is it?'. He said,
'Well it will be as important as if Christ had returned.'
And I said, 'Is it THAT?' He changed the topic IMMEDIATELY
[Fenwick's emphasis], to some new information about the
Roswell incident. He changed the topic very quickly...as
if he knew what was going to happen at Armageddon in 1990."
"And referring our telephone conversation, what is the
"Well, that's pretty difficult to say. The Jesus connection
I think...we're talking not about Jesus, but about the
Anti-christ meeting with the Jewish Saviour...who is an
entirely different person, and with the prophet Elijah who
may return at the same moment. In other words, three people
involved, although Harbinson said two in his book. I think
"As an aside, from my own readings on these 'End time'
scenarios, Elias and Enoch are supposed to return for a
final confrontation with the Anti-christ and false prophet,
who is Jewish. They are the only two figures of both
the old and new testaments, who never experienced physical
death. In St. John's Book of Revelations they are thought
to be the the 'two witnesses' [Rev.11], who by today's
standards will have incredible 'psychic' powers." This
whole scheme of things, as soon as you mention the name
Anti-christ, seems to suggest a Judeo-Christian context...
is that essentially correct?"
"Well then where do the aliens fit in?"
"Well I don't know about that part, but maybe we can go
into that a little later. But briefly, the confrontation
between Enoch, Elijah...the Jewish Saviour whatever name
you want to give to him, and the Anti-christ; will be
a mental confrontation. A battle of minds...which will
occur on one day..."
"A battle of 'miracles'?"
"Possibly miracles, I don't know. On that one day. And
that will be the key element in the whole 'beginnings'
of the 9-year war. Now the 9-year war...as I say called
WW III. Now the 'alien connection' is strictly through
project Aquarius. They know the future, they know the
history of this planet...they have a long-term master
plan for this planet, and it includes WW III. That's
the only connection."
"But they're not 'God' though?"
"No...but they're very close to it. What we would call
in the old days, 'angels'. The equivalent. Able to make
miracles. Christ himself may have been a product of a
hybrid. Mary, under the Immaculate Conception...now
we're dealing in religion. Now this is one of the reasons
why Tracy Torme was talking how religion will be affected.
We talk about the various things that have happened...in
terms of genetic experiments...interbreeding with the
abductees. Mary may have given birth to Christ through
the same means. One ova was extracted, and Christ was born.
There are a lot of years of Christ that we don't know
what happened, he was out in the desert and so on. This is
where the whole thing may have come to fruition. All the
miracles that Christ was supposed to have done were quite
common in those days...in terms of capabilities of people.
A lot of people in those days could do the same things
as Christ could do."
"Recently...now I'm digressing somewhat here to religion.
Harry Tokarz, our co-director, is quite a religious chap.
He reads a Jewish publication, the 'Canadian Jewish News'.
And recently...I think this was about 4 months ago...there
was an article that said the Dead Sea Scrolls are being
translated by computer. And the latest thing that they
have come up with, and released to the media...the Jewish
media, is that in those days...in the days of Christ,
almost everyone could do the same things that Christ could
do...but didn't do it openly. Christ did. And he was
punished for that by being killed and crucified. Not
because he was starting up a new religion or anything else,
[but] because he did all these things...and they were not
[supposed] to be done publicly. And he was taking advantage
of his abilities...his psychic abilities to do...create
'loaves of bread out of one'...this sort of thing. And
everyone could do it in those days. And this is what has
come out of the dead sea scrolls...this is fact."
"The Essenes could do this?"
"But only that limited group though?"
"I don't know about that. That I don't know. I haven't
gone that much into it. But the Essenes certainly...and
maybe a lot of other people in those days had that ability.
Now, if we were to get into the other aspect of things
that Christ could do. Moses parting the Red Sea, [he] may
have had that capability. People in those days were not
technologically advanced as we are today. They are close
to the primitive Africans...who can sense things a mile
away...they have all these psychic/spiritual abilities. I
think that primitive people were more advanced than we are
in terms of their mental abilities, and their abilities to
do things that we would consider miracles. What we call
miracles were commonplace then. Nowadays if we see a
'miracle' we wonder if someone is hoaxing us...'this is
phony, are we being hypnotised, is mass hypnosis going on'.
They were probably able to do such a thing...hypnotize
crowds of people into thinking they saw 'a thousand loaves
of bread' and they weren't. They may have done it [and]
they may not. So if you're talking about the effect on
religion...and religious people...very religious Christians,
if they knew that Christ was the product of inter-breeding
between creatures from another planet and Mary, ...that
would destroy the Christian religion utterly, number one.
It would upset the scientists, and the general public. And
that's why you keep it from the people. I think that if I
were in Project Aquarius...if I were a member of Project
Aquarius...and not one of the ones who are [currently]
talking; I would say, 'Gee, it is justified. We shouldn't
tell the people this..., its got to be just too darn
upsetting. I mean, maybe all our religions were founded by
them [aliens] in that way."
"Why doesn't that one part of Project Aquarius 'silence'
the ten rebels?"
"There's a battle going on. A mental battle I think, or a
paper battle. Some say yes, and some say no. And at the
moment, the ones who say 'release it' are winning. Maybe
in a few years time, maybe next year it will be the other
side will hush it all up."
"Why aren't Condor and Falcon 'kicked out'? I mean, they
must be able to find out who those two are."
"Now the fact that Condor is reputed to be a black man..."
"...that wasn't publicized in the show. I know it."
"I know, you couldn't tell by watching the show [UFO Coverup],
but the fact that a black man would be in a position of power
like that, isn't that a bit suspect? [Note. To all reading,
please don't misunderstand what I'm saying].
"He doesn't got the rank that Falcon has. Condor is the
"And what is his rank?"
"He's military. Falcon is scientific. He's a scientist.
Scientist is above the military in MJ-12, under Aquarius.
Scientist has a higher rank than the military. They can
find out more, in terms of technological things. They
supply the information on how the UFOs are propelled...to
the military...who use it. But without the scientists, the
military couldn't do a thing. So they get a higher ranking.
They'd have to."
"The fact that there is a black man up there..., I can see
that if they were all Vietnam vets like you said, that
would make sense there. But what is his 'minimum' ranking?"
"Colonel. He's at least a colonel, but I don't know his
exact rank. Stanton Friedman called him, 'Colonel B', just
gave an initial, that's all."
"But 'B' may not necessarily stand for anything. Just as
like 'X' or whatever. 'B' could stand for 'black'."
"Could use 'X', or however you want to do it. The
information, according to Tracy he checked everything that
had been told to Bill Moore. And everything checks out.
Everything. The credentials...and all the information that
he has [which] he didn't tell us, I mean I think we've
know heard about 20% of the information. 15% from Tracy,
and 5% from that TV show. There's a lot more. And Tracy
was saying that..., 'if you think that what I have told
you is astounding, you should hear the rest of it.' What
we have heard, is nothing compared to the rest of the
information that Aquarius has come up with."
"How much more incredible can it get?"
"I don't know how much more. He said [Torme], 'that it's
beyond human imagination.'"
"What would you say to people who try to separate the
whole UFO phenomenon from religion, but just want to
look at the empirical data."
"The technological aspects? From a 20th Century point of
view, all the technological things can not be done. No.
The 21st century maybe, if we live that long..."
"No, what I meant is...can we get a handle on the thing
by disregarding the religious aspect?"
"Yes. Oh we can, sure. From what I have read, and I've
read over 400 books on the subject, I think if you
were to take an overview of everything that had been
written, or at least that I have read; yeah, you can
get a handle on it."
"Divorced from the religious element?"
"Oh yes, definitely. There's no question about that."
"...but you'd be missing the point though, if you didn't
"You have to include that. That's the original source
of the 'whole business'. I mean, I think they started
our religions. I'm pretty sure they started our religions,
certainly the Christian religion was started by them."
"What, the one group...the 'grays'?"
"Yes, the grays."
"Do you believe there is 70, as in the 'Andreasson Affair'
"70 races there is in the planet, but I don't think that
there are very many of the other 70 here around. Most
of them are maybe grays, and some of the 'tall ones',
and maybe the 'bigfoot' type, whatever. Those are the
main ones, those are about 90% of them...of the individual
aliens visiting the planet. That other 10% is the other
67 races...maybe one or two guys from each race or
something [who] at various times in our history have
visited this planet."
"What about that one reference to the one 'bad' group,
the bad race [see 'Andreasson Affair']."
"The bad race, I think we're talking about the grays
there. I'm not certain. The grays are the bad guys
supposedly. According to some people...and nobody's
decided other than the people at Aquarius and MJ-12,
who would probably know the truth...maybe. Everyone
else is guessing...that the grays are the bad guys.
Linda Howe is guessing...and John Lear is guessing,
and so on. [Why?] Because of what they do to us,
they abduct us...they are doing things that we don't
like. If I were a scientist, a genetic scientist from
another planet, and was coming down to this planet and
doing experiments...and seeing this 'failed experiment'
[ie. the human race]; I would do it, without any
particular care about whether the human beings were upset
by it or not. I'd just do the job...its my job, what the
"So we're a failed experiment..."
"...from their point of view."
"Yes, but what they are going to try and get out of us
before we annihilate ourselves...which they are..."
"...under the process of doing. Having us do it [to
"They are contributing those thoughts to people's minds
or whatever. What they want to take is that which will
improve their own physiological make-up or whatever."
"Yes, they're helping themselves. Hell, I would do it too
if I had no muscles, and wanted muscles...and had the
genetic capabilities of inter-breeding, sure I'd do it
"Now, isn't that sort of a fluke in a way, that two
different species would be able to inter-breed?"
"Yes it is, but they 'blend'. They don't inter-breed
very well, they've had some problems with it...they've
had some real problems. They're working at it, [after all]
they've just started at it. I'm sure that they've tried
other places too. If they've 'seeded' other planets...
maybe at some places it works perfectly, and maybe at
other places it doesn't."
"...Just so that I can get this whole religious schema
which you've laid out, correct in my mind,...there's
still 'God' and there's still the 'Devil', and there's
humans AND there's other aliens which are 'angels'?"
"What we would call angels. What we call angels...in
terms of their capabilities and mental state...they're
close to God."
"But they're not angels as in our biblical conception
of St. Michael for example. They may be a step below..."
"Yes, I'd say just one step below."
"For instance, there's reference in Genesis to the
'Nephilim', who were said to be the offspring of
illicit sexual relations between the 'Sons of God'
[ie. angels] and 'the daughters of men'. Obviously
the way you said it, the aliens would have been around
long before that, but could they be something like that?"
"Maybe. I don't know."
"Obviously, what you've described about the Aliens
involvement in Religion and before Genesis...is all
"It is, yes. Now as I say, from my point of view, from
what I know, its muddy. But obviously there is a lot more
information. Now maybe the majority of the rest of the
information about Project Aquarius has to do solely with
religion. It just may be."
"You mean, what the future make-up might be...how the
political and social structures might be? Because if its
just a nuclear annihiliation..., there's gotta be
something more there..."
"Well, there's another thing too. Several abductees have
reported, and we have investigated several cases...very
plausible cases, where they've been shown the future of
the planet...on board a UFO, by some sort of screen where
they show films of the future on this planet. And you see
devastation...everyone dying, and so on...from geological
problems [ie. earthquakes, flooding, etc.]. I heard this
from several abductees, credible people. The two ladies
who were on the 'Man Alive' show [Note. That show's
transcript, also done by ParaNet Pi, can be found in the
File Library under ETHYPE.TXT], Dorothy and Betty...and
Betty's one of our members by the way. So I questioned
that, I said, 'You mean all the volcanoes on the earth,
and all of them are going to erupt simultaneously, and
all the earthquake faults...minor and major...are going
to give way at the same time, and the North Pole...all
the ice will melt very quickly, and all the coastlines
will be flooded, and so on...' They said they saw all
kinds of devastation...millions of people dying, they
saw this. So I said to myself, 'Well...that's a
possibility, its a possibility.' And I called Larry
Fawcett, he's a police officer...Lawrence Fawcett. He's
one of the two writer's of the book 'Clear Intent'. I
called Larry...and I've talked to him before..., and
I posed that question to him. I said, 'From whatever
contacts you have with military intelligence, or whatever,
could you tell me whether there will be any future events
that will destroy most of the human race, having to do
with geological problems." He said, 'No.' I said, 'What
kind of source do you have?' He said, 'My source is a
2-Star General who is in Project Aquarius.' He denied
that anything 'geological' was going to happen. 'Its
not going to be that at all'. I did not go any further
and say, 'Well, is it going to be military, is it going
to be sociological, is it going to be this or that.' I
could have, but I didn't. I eliminated that possiblity
as far as his... This is what he said, its second-hand
information...or third-hand if it came from the aliens..."
"There's another possibility too, that if you've read
Thomas Bullard's [sp?] Ph.D thesis on abductions which
is 600 pages long...dealing with 300 abductions. Most
of the information given by the aliens to abductee's is
LIES. So if they show these two abductee's [Dorothy and
Betty] the future, its a lie. Why they lie, has not
been gone into by Thomas Bullard. Why do they lie to
us? Why do they lie to the abductees, about a lot of
things? More than 80%...somewhere between 80% and 90%
of the information are lies. WHY? That, we don't know.
No one has speculated on that. You have to put yourself
in their place. Suppose you had an IQ of 200, and you
were 400 yrs. old, and you came from another planet to
a planet where you were experimenting with people; why
would you lie to them about their future. This is
something that is a profound question...that no one has
gone into in the UFO field...as far as I know. You
have to put yourself in their place, and you can't do it.
I mean, I got a 155 IQ, but its not 200! So I don't
know, speculation is all you can do."
"If what we've heard is true, and the events take place,
then it will be too late to do anything about it anyway.
If it doesn't happen, then we know that what Bullard's
study has shown, is true...that it's lies, its all
baloney. That what has been told by the aliens to MJ-12,
and in particular to Project Aquarius...is lies. That
is the most profound question. Probably the most profound
question in the history of the human race. Because if it
isn't lies...about WW III...then we've had it. We might
as well live it up while we can too [laughter]. My way
of living...I live it up, I'll tell ya. There's nothing
that I won't do...within reason [more laughter]. But I
stay within the law by the way."
"What do you see happening in the next 2 years...what
kind of things are going to surface?"
"Well, if you talk about that television show on Oct.14th
UFO-Coverup LIVE, and you look at the date now...and you
follow the media; there hasn't been one single bit of
reaction in the United States, because of the elections
going on now. They are all concerned with elections. This
wasn't the time to have that TV show on, everyone is
concerned with the election. They should have waited until
after the election. But they figured this; they wanted
Reagan to open up...Reagan knows whats' going on. They
figured that he would come up with a statement before the
election,...he's a lame-duck president. If he makes a
statement before Monday [Nov.7/88], then that show will
have done some good. If he doesn't, then that show will
have been no good at all, 'cause that's what they wanted.
They wanted that show to be a catalyst, so that Reagan
would talk publicly to the American public about what's
going on. They had hoped that."
"And what is Reagan's connection?"
"He's part of the whole process...he's briefed."
"Is he a member?"
"Of Aquarius? Sure."
"So its basically everyone in the upper hierarchy of
"We're talking about director of the CIA, director of
the National Reconnaisance Organization, the National
Intelligence Agency. The NRA wasn't mentioned there,
there's also the Continental Army Intelligence Command.
Those are some of the other agencies that werern't
mentioned on that television show, but they were
involved as well. The heads of them, the directors of
them. Only them; who would have what they call, 'a need
to know' basis. And on that basis, they are given the
information...and they are not told what the other people
know. They are only told what they need to know, for
their own particular purposes. Their specialties are used
by Project Aquarius. Reagan is not part of Project
Aquarius, he is briefed on what they know."
"So he's not one of the 24?"
"He's briefed, that all. And the CIA director is not one
of them necessarily. We don't know exactly who. It
changes over the years. People die off obviously, all the
original MJ-12 people are dead...except for one person."
"And who is this?"
"I don't know his name. I have a photograph of him with
President Eisenhower...which was sent to me by one of
our members [CUFORN] in western Canada, who has been in
touch with a MUFON State Director who knows this man;
knows where he lives, knows his name. Our Winnipeg
member refuses to disclose the name to me, Harry and Joe
[the 3 CUFORN Directors]. He will not give us the name of
the man. The man is either 78 or 82 [years of age],
somewhere in that area. He was in charge of
back to his original feeling that he should release the
notes. And he mentioned also...the Winnipeg member
mentioned that...his name is Grant Cameron [sp?] by the
way in Winnipeg. He said that at the meetings, there
were two meetings at which he presided, that he knows
of; at those meetings were pieces of UFOs, dead aliens,
and about 100 stenographers and secretarys taking notes,
with the old stenographers and dictating machines and
so on,...and they're all dead. Except this one man.
Everyone is gone, every single person who was at those
meetings is gone...except him. If we can track him down,
that's the biggest story of all time...to get him to
talk. One of the MUFON directors of one of the states
was in touch with him AND his son. Now his son wants
the father to release the information, but his father
"Why isn't he 'silenced'? Why don't they just do away
"Because no one knows what's going on, besides the few
people in the UFO community. This is very confidential."
"Well yes, obviously. Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman,
particularly Bill Moore...is sort of on the outs with
everyone else in UFOlogy; because he criticizes and
debunks everyone except...anyone connected with the
Roswell Incident, fine, or Gulf Breeze now. He has made
a lot of enemies...Bill has. And people aren't passing
information along to him in the UFO field..."
"Anymore, or not much...?"
"No, not very much at all. He will either debunk it, or
keep it for himself and try and make money out of it.
Because he's got no other income, other than his little
lists of books he sells and magazines whatever, and
pamphlets. So there is a lot of people who just don't
want to talk to him...about what's going on. Now I
talked to Stanton; Stanton's okay...but he's sort of
under Bill's thumb. Whatever Bill says, [Stanton will
say] 'Oh yah...", which is very unusual for Stanton
because he's a very independent type of guy. But they
work as a team, with Shandera. And Linda Howe...and
John Lear...are quite aware of what's going on, of
that aspect. They are quite upset by it."
"What...the secrecy...the cliques?"
"Yes the secrecy, and the cliques...exactly. I mean
there's no room for cliques. I've written several
editorials...one of which appeared in 'Flying Saucer
Review' in England...about this situation. About the
secrecy between UFOlogists. Work as a team as I've
stated. Why don't we all work as a team...we could
discover so much more as a team, than bickering
"There's so little time..."
"Yes. And they have rumours flying around. That's a
waste of time! John's repeating rumours he's heard
from Linda Howe...Linda Howe's repeating rumours
she's heard from John Lear. Then other people hear
about those rumours...and they get exaggerated even
more so. And what's the truth? Who knows if there is
anything to it. We have to get at the essence of what's
going on. We want to find out all the other information
about Project Aquarius. That's what we have to centre
on. I was talking to Allen Spragget [sp?], who is
probably Canada's foremost authority on ESP,...I took
a night school course on ESP from him. He's interested
in the UFO phenomenon, and he got a million dollars
recently, from a Canadian benefactor to do a TV show,
a series of shows on ESP and UFOs. Only one show on
UFOs. He want the opening one [to be on UFOs]. And he
thought that he would do one on MJ-12, and he told me
about 3 days before the TV show was on, and I said,
'You're a little late, in a matter of fact the show
[UFO Coverup] is going to be about MJ-12.' [and then
Spragget said], 'Oh...well that's out. What else can
I do?' And I said, 'How about Project Aquarius. Only
one show only on Project Aquarius.' He said, 'Fine.
Where am I going to get the information?' 'Well', I
said to myself, 'You're not going to get it from
Bill Moore, but maybe you'll get it from Stanton
Friedman.' So I gave him Friedman's address and phone
number, in Fredericton. I haven't called Allen to see
whether he's spoken to Friedman, and what information
he's gotten from Friedman, or how many leads he's
gotten. I doubt very much if Friedman even knows Allen
Spragget. Allen's published a few books on psychic
phenomena and so on."
"If that were to come to pass...that a Canadian show,
or series...with the opening segment on Project
Aquarius, [that] would be the most astounding media
event in history. To get that on the air...all the
information..., if Stanton would talk openly about
all the information he knows."
"What do you think he knows?"
"I think he knows it all. But if he would talk about
it, and he thinks it should be done... If they can
get MJ-12 on a show, then why can't they get all that
Project Aquarius stuff? It's not that much more of a
leap...at least I don't think so, maybe it is...,
Certainly if you can even mention Project Aquarius, as
it was mentioned several times on the show [UFO Coverup],
if you could even have mentioned that, then you've really
got something. You've got your foot in the door...to
breaking the whole thing wide open. But the key is 'the
old man', what I call 'the old man'...whoever he is. If
he will change his mind again; if Friedman can get to
him. If he's right, Friedman says, 'I think I know who
he is.', but he's not certain. Now whether he's gone
after the wrong guy or the right guy...I don't know.
I haven't spoken to Stanton in a while, its been about
2 months since I've spoken with Stanton. If Stanton
can get the old man to talk...then that can go on
"When is Spragget's show scheduled for?"
"I don't know. He has to get information before he can
do a show...so he's waiting. He's trying to find out
"So you're encouraging Stanton and others to..."
"...to be open. And join in a group effort. You've
got to have that."
"Do you think a lot of this reticence has to do with
people wanting credit and..."
"...and Ego. Bill Moore has the highest ego that you
ever want to see in a UFOlogist...there's no question
about that. There's no room for ego in this deal. We
need co-operation. I was talking to Allen Hynek...I've
met him in person several times, the late Allen Hynek...
and each time I did, he said the same thing I'm telling
you. Co-operate, CO-OPERATE...as a team. We need a team
effort. There shouldn't be a MUFON, an A.P.R.O., an a
NICAP, and all these other organizations. Well, there's
no longer any NICAP or A.P.R.O., [but still ones like]
CUFOS. There should be ONE the entire world,...with
translation facilities and so on. Then you get the heart
of the matter, then you can find out what's going on."
"You have a network of people..."
"Yes. And that's why the computer end of things is a very
good idea. Because you do have the burgeoning network of
people in the computer field. How many people are involved
now in the computer field in UFOs. Its growing all the
time. I think that there have to be more people who are
in it full-time. That's the problem,...computers are a help."
"Do you think that we have got to have less 'armchair'
UFOlogists, and more people like yourself who are giving
money for research and..."
"...yes. And speaking...I've spoken at libraries and so on.
And giving the information to the public...it has to be
out there. Because, sure a lot of people may be bewildered
by it, may not believe it, may not understand it...but
there may be the odd one...all you need is one or two who
"...you touch a nerve."
"And touch a nerve....and [hope] they'll talk. Someone
will say, 'I know someone who knows someone...', and
then you go after that person, and say, 'Oh...what's
his name, where does he live...give me his phone number
and his address. Get that...if you can't get that, then
forget what you've heard because it could be distorted."
"Yes, it's amazing how that can work. For instance I have
someone on my BBS, not involved with UFOlogy at all...but
yet he has a degree in Physics which he received at the
University of New Brunswick, where Friedman taught. It
just so happened that this particular individual was in
charge of getting good speaker's for special physics
department lectures, and when a good speaker from the
states was available and he didn't have enough money to
get him, he would go to the people who control the purse
strings and request more funds. Alls he would have to do
is hint that they were thinking of getting Stanton to
speak, and shortly thereafter the money would become
'available'. This of course refers to the stigma which
other professional people place on anyone involved in
a subject like UFOs. Your reputation is on the line."
"Stanton's expensive. He charges $1000 an hour for
lectures, plus airfare to wherever he's going, colleges
and universities. I charge $50."
"Does he lecture about nuclear physics?"
"No, UFOlogy. He lectures at Universities. He's
lectured at something like 300 Universities and Colleges
across North America. But that's a weekend deal. And
he's worked for the New Brunswick Power Commission, he's
worked on the irradiation of food, that sort of thing.
And that's his full-time job. So weekends he'll lecture
at symposium somewhere or at a library or university or
"The fact that he is getting such big money, do you
think that that has some bearing on his willingness to
release all that he knows?"
"No. He has a big family, wife and kids. Stanton has to
support a lot of research. He does a lot of research, not
just lecturing. But he's after this Aquarius stuff...
His phone bill alone is about $2000 a year at least."
"I've spent that much on phone bills in 7 months."
"If you have independent income, its great. What we need
is a few millionaires in the UFO field."
"Or a couple of rich widows..."
"There aren't that many, John Lear's one I suppose. John's
got a lot of money. We need more."
"Well, he's got...I think he's got enough that he can
afford to get around and do a lot of footwork. [Enough]
to get out of the armchair and do some of this stuff."