Msg#: 1655 *SATANIC*
07/03/88 12:07:00 (Read 4 Times)
From: ROWAN MOONSTONE
To: PHILLIP HANSFORD (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1378 (RE: SATANISM, ET AL)
Phil, have you read "Satan Wants You" by Arthur Lyons? I'm readiong it right
now and it's very interesting. Lyons hypothesizes that the whole Satanic
conspiracy is a giant job of media hype. I can believe it too, from my own
studies. There are only a very few cases with any hard evidence and virtually
all of these are cases of wacked out teens on drugs getting into strange stuff.
My questions about all these supposedly adult survivors of Satanic cults are as
follows:
1. Are the police investigating the claims of these people who are admitting to
being accessories to everything from rape and kidnapping to murder?
2. If these claims have been investigated and found to be true, has anyone been
prosecuted?
3. If these claims have been investigated and found false, why hasn't someone
denounced the liars?
Seriously folks, IF what these people say is true, they must have names, dates,
places, etc. If they went to the cops and the cops investigated it, if could be
shut down right? One woman who spoke at a Pagan gathering claimed that her
husband was a cop. She herself claimed to be one of these survivors. Why wasn't
he doing something? It's a CRIME to withold evidence from the cops. !!! BB
Rowan
--- QuickBBS v2.01
* Origin: Rock Island (on) Line - Newalla, Ok.- (405)391-9488 (1:147/3)



Msg#: 1595 *MAGICKNET*
06/30/88 19:14:00 (Read 1 Times)
From: BRAD HICKS
To: ALL
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1594 (RE: BRAD'S REPORT ON PSG)
(continued from previous message)

Also on the cult-crime front: one of the better-attended seminars was led by a
non-Pagan.  Frank Medina, who is on the Witchconsin Governor's advisory council
on gang- and cult-related crimes, gave a seminar in which he went over the
material that he uses to teach police officers in Wisconsin about
occult-related crime.  (If you are in contact with local police officers and
want to refer them to a sensible cop, refer them to Frank Medina, 1146 Grant
St., Beloit, WI 53511, 1-608-364-3061.)  He gave a lot of valuable legal
advice, including =the= standard legal references on religious freedom (Thomas
vs Review Board of Indiana and Denver vs Landis).  He also showed a videotape
put together by Jerry Simandle and Sandy Gallant - and that latter name should
be familiar, as she was one of the people at the original IAPTM seminar that
kicked off this whole fad.  Interestingly enough, though no shortage of people
in the Craft believe in what they're now calling "generational ritual satanic
abuse," when I asked =him= my standard three questions (evidence? indictments?
convictions?) he used the same term I use: he admitted it was all a "UFO
sighting" and that he himself wasn't persuaded that =cult= killings (that is to
say, organizational, ritually-motivated murders) even exist - with the
exception of the Troiano case (where the motive has more to do with drugs than
Satanism) and the "Lost Boys" vampire slayings (which had nothing to do with
ANY religion).  This puts the Church of All Worlds (for example) on the side of
the witch-hunters and the only police officer I've spoken with on the subject
on the other side. Interesting, n'est c'est pas?  Oh, Mr. Medina also
recommended David Sinclair, _Say You Love Satan_ on the Troiano killings and
mentioned the OTO lawsuit against Maury Terry, wishing you the best of luck -
because he says it's one of THE most influential books among law-enforcers.
And he said he was =quite= interested in MagickNet as a resource, and will
probably be =at least= calling into here (long distance from Beloit, Wisconsin,
no less) and maybe even getting his office to set up a node.

By the way, Frank Medina has obviously been carefully indoctrinated by Selena
about how "normal" and "harmless" Pagans and Witches are.  Then he spent some
time with us - and guess what, folks?  Some of that is wearing off!  One
particular conversation he overheard and relayed to me - I find it medium-grade
appalling, and he was obviously anguishing over whether or not to turn them in
to the police.  He mentioned that he heard one father mention quite casually to
some people that of course, when his daughter turned 16 that he'd be the one to
ritually deflower her.  This IN the hearing of his young, and obviously
uncomfortable daughter.  Supposedly, he even made it quite clear that this
would happen even if the daughter didn't want it! Folks, you may want to call
that Pagan Religion if you like: =I= call it child abuse and rape, and if =I'D=
been the one he said it to, he'd've had my athame sticking out of his chest and
I'd have to consecrate another one.  And how do you think this affected the
parole officer on the Governor's task force?

Speaking of Frank Medina's obvious indoctrination by Circle, it carried with it
the same implication that it was =important= that we separate Satanism from
Witchcraft, even for law-enforcement purposes.  (What, our religion is legal
and theirs isn't?)  This has even gone as far as a resolution which was
according to it passed unanimously at Ancient Ways and at Heartland, and which
passed overwhelmingly (but NOT unanimously, and if you see it and it says so
call the bearer a LIAR) at PSG that (1) informs the police that Witches and
Pagans aren't Satanists, and we'll sue you if you say so, (2) expresses "deep
sympathy" and offers our "prayers" for the victims of generational satanic
ritual child abuse, and (3) guarantees that we'll do everything within our
power to find the Satanists responsible and see to it they're brought to
justice.  Oh, boy.  Remember the 50's, when the Democrats were out to prove
that they hated Communists just as much as McCarthy did? Thanks to the CAW
folk, we now have big chunks of the Craft committed PUBLICALLY to a UFO-hunt,
with hints that we'd like to blame the Satanists, too.  (I also really, really
don't like the implication that the festivals PER SE speak for the Craft.
Really.)  When she introduced the resolution, Ayesha of the Church of All
Worlds also made a big, blatant and public point of the fact that the
resolution didn't mention Ceremonial Magicians as being good guys and
non-Satanists -- "because that's too controversial."  So I guess we've picked
the victims for the next human sacrifice, hmmm?  Find any burnt bannock in your
breakfast cereal, Josh?  It sure looks to me like influential groups in the
Craft wanna sacrifice the OTO and the Satanists to the witch-burners, in hopes
that if we cooperate we'll escape.  *Faagh!* [Spit]

(continued next message ...)

--- Sirius 0.50
* Origin: Unknown


From:    Brad Hicks
To:      Alfgar Maharg                            Msg #485, 06-Jul-88 11:06am
Subject: Re: mence et al

OK, I am =not= getting this from a primary source.  Until I get some auto
insurance matters straightened out, I'm not driving anywhere, let a alone to a
law library a half-hour's drive away.  Here is what Frank Medina told us at
PSG:

In settling the case of Denver vs Landis, the Supreme Court set down three
tests to determine if a religious expression was protected by the First
Amendment.  First of all, it must be a sincerely held belief, and the hurdle
for that one has been set rather high - you must believe something strongly
enough to willingly face imprisonment in order to convince the courts of your
sincerity.  Secondly, that expression must be a "meaningful part of [your]
life", not something you do occassionally or as a hobby.  [This lets out about
half, charitably speaking, of the Pagans and Witches I've met.]  Finally, it
must relate to "ultimate concerns," which is the Court's way of referring to
spiritual matters such as life-after-death, the meaning of human existence,
and so forth.

Oh, relevant to that case (and others), Mr. Medina informed us that "THE"
standard reference text used and referred to by the Supreme Court on religious
questions is _Varieties of Religious Experience_ by William James, and he
recommended that anyone who's going to pursue religious law matters be
familiar with it.

--- Sirius 0.50
 * Origin: WeirdBase * St. Louis * 1-314-741-2231 * (Opus 1:100/523)

Msg#: 1829 *MAGICKNET*
07/00/88 15:03:00 (Read 2 Times)
From: BRAD HICKS
To: JOE TOTARO (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1754 (RE: ONE MORE TIME)
I was about to write a rather cynical reply, when I spotted one note of sanity
in your posts.  I'd say that your estimate of 2,000 is probably in line;
certainly on the right order of magnitude.  Now, do you buy into the allegation
(frequently made by the more bogus cult-hunters like Thomas Elias, or Maurice
Terry, or Pat Pulling) that there's one central conspiracy that guides them
all?

I readily concede that some occultists have committed crimes.  I will further
concede that some murderers left evidence of occultism at the scene of the
crime.  Both of these sentences are backed, irrefutably, be evidence.

Now, let's go a little step farther from the evidence with a few statements:

"These murders were occult-related."  Very, very seldom we have motives for
these crimes.  I have seen two separate motives, neither of which has anything
to do with specific occult or religious beliefs, even among the hard-core
heavy-metal deranged Satanists.  At least one murder (and not unlikely more)
was a standard drug-gang related killing, with ritual trappings added almost as
an afterthought.  (Cf the Troiano case.)  Also not unheard of are grotesque
crimes committed by people who, on close examination, were known psychopaths
before they ever saw a pentacle.  While I know of groups which preach such
attrocities, I have seen no evidence yet of an organized Satanic religious
group AS SUCH committing a crime, so I consider this one unsupported by
evidence.

Now, one step further into the twilight zone:  "A vast, centrally controlled
Satanist conspiracy is committing many murders and systematic child abuse."
Variants on this sentence can be found throughout the literature, and it
contains at least two unsupported allegations: that a vast centrally controlled
Satanist conspiracy exists and that this group, if it exists, is getting away
with horrible crimes.  It's not a coincidence that most of the self-proclaimed
"researchers" don't document where they get these allegations.  These
allegations began with a known lunatic with an Army psychiatric discharge (John
W. Todd) and have been defended by an endless array of people who admit they
were into heavy drug abuse at the time they "saw" the evidence (such as Mike
Warnke).  The latest batch of such accusations are put forth by apparent
child-abuse and/or incest victims, based ENTIRELY on evidence extracted by
trained questioners under hypnosis. May I point out that there are good reasons
why hypnotic evidence is not accepted in court?  No end of people have been
hypnotized and questioned about UFO abductions; they report things that violate
known physical laws. Do you believe THEM?  I am prepared to consider evidence
that such crimes take place; absent any indictments and/or convictions, I
remain so far unconvinced.  And I do not see ANY evidence that one central
conspiracy even exists, let alone coordinates such monstrous crimes.

The final step into the twilight zone:  "This conspiracy is huge, and contains
high-ranking law enforcement officers, judges, and politicians who are
suppressing any inquiry into the matter."  How can any one listen to that kind
of talk with a straight face?  Anyone who asks you to believe this is asking
you to believe that tens of thousands of initiated Satanists, plus presumably
hundreds, maybe thousands of women who are constantly pregnant, plus an endless
parade of terrified victims, can do a better job of keeping a secret that one
small office-ful of people at the National Security Agency.

In brief, then: I admit that lone psychopaths exist, and that they do what
psychopaths do.  I admit that drug-selling criminal gangs exist, and they they
commit crimes.  I am willing to admit that just as many of
these people are Christians, some of them are undoubtedly one form or another
of occultist.  If evidence arises, I am willing to consider the possibility
that some of these crimes are committed by religious groups and are motivated
by (what seem to the perpetrators to be) religious or occultic motives - so far
I have seen no such evidence.  And I am manifestly unprepared to believe even
for a minute that such a group, if it exists, has thousands or tens of
thousands of high-ranking members, commits thousands of crimes a year, and
covers them all up with a skill that exceeds that of any intelligence agency in
the world.

--- Sirius 0.50
* Origin: WeirdBase * St. Louis * 1-314-741-2231 * (Opus 1:100/523)

<*>Replies

Msg#: 1848 *MAGICKNET*
07/00/88 18:55:00 (Read 2 Times)
From: PAT CRUMHORN
To: ROWAN MOONSTONE
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1829 (ONE MORE TIME)
93.  OK. I know there are many people on this echo who are quite tolerant of
fundamentalist christianity.  I do not happen to be one of them.  Are there
like-minded people here who would be willing to search out and contribute
clippings for a newsletter that would detail the hundreds of crimes annually
perpetrated by "christians"?  I refer to the constant stories of crazed fundie
parents stabbing their kids (or other peoples kids) to death because "Jesus
told me the child was possessed". Cases where Jehovah Witnesses or others
allowed their children to die horribly and painfully, when surgery or a blood
transfusion would have saved them?  Cases where wives were beaten or killed by
fundie husbands for disobeying biblical injunctions regarding the husband being
master of the household?
We could put out a quarterly newsletter, distributed to all major
law-enforecment groups, that would totally dwarf any of the "occult crimes"
newsletters, both in sheer number of cases and in horrific details.
I am not being facetious here. I am serious!  At the very least, such an
effort, widely distributed, would put these "occult crimes" porno newsletters
in their proper context.
CULT: A belief other people force on your kids.
RELIGION: A belief YOU force on your kids.
All responses welcomed.
93  93/93
Pat


---
* Origin: TouchStone HST: We're ALL a LITTLE Cracked.. (Opus 1:136/213)

Msg#: 1922 *MAGICKNET*
07/07/88 15:59:03 (Read 3 Times)
From: JOE TOTARO
To: BRAD HICKS
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1829 (RE: ONE MORE TIME)
Rowan, due to long distance I have captured your excellent message and will
formulate a reply to do it justice.  We are really talking about the same
things, are we not?  I don't think anyone is saying that Satanists are a
nationwide conspiracy.  They are a phenomenon, loosely bound togethe by shared
guilt & depravity.  Sure they're sick.  They're sick to be interested in BEING
satanist, let alone DOING what they{eventually do.

We have much common ground and while I may not share your ideas/faith/pract
ices, I see plenty of reaso{ there.  I am interested in your perspective on
this, philosophically and/or anecdotally{  That's all.  Plus the more you could
do to distinguish yourself/selves from the looney-tune
gunrunning/drug-dealing/hitmen/pornographers and the different gangsters who
pull their strings, the better for you, eh?  That's what I think anyway.

GT
--- TBBS v2.0
* Origin: Cult Monitor LA (818)985-2701  (102/744)

Msg#: 1935 *MAGICKNET*
07/00/88 19:41:00 (Read 3 Times)
From: ALFGAR MAHARG
To: BRAD HICKS
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1922 (RE: ONE MORE TIME)
Specifically with regard to Terry's allegations: much (all right, MOST) of what
he says in That Book is wildly garbled or inaccurate. (My favorite howler is
the description of the Process cross as "a form of inverted swastika", when
what he means is precisely an UNinverted swastika.) But I do not think he could
have simply invented the references to the "4P" outfit Joe also mentioned and
"a violent offshoot of Scientology" which point to a Processean splinter group.
(This does leave the possibility that he was duped by someone else's
invention.) In SATAN'S POWER, Bainbridge mentions problems with "LSM" (Lower
Satanic Manifestation) elements; and recounts a report that after the palace
coup which replaced the Process with the Foundation, Christ and Satan were
formally expelled from the New York chapter. Perhaps it was really some of the
worst-case LSMs and LCMs who were expelled; and I am prepared to believe that
some of the former have been implicated in nasty goings-on.


---
* Origin: OPUS DEII = BaphoNet-by-the-Sea (718) 499-9277 (Opus 1:107/293)

Msg#: 1951 *MAGICKNET*
07/00/88 19:18:00 (Read 3 Times)
From: FARRELL MCGOVERN
To: ROWAN MOONSTONE
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1940 (RE: ONE MORE TIME)

RM>Arthur Lyons book"Satan Wants You". It's a real good example
RM>of why this urban legend is growing. It's become a multi million
RM>dollar business and don't you think it hasn't. Pat Pulling of
RM>BADD gets a cool $300-$600 a head for her "occult crime " seimnars.
RM>That book the guy is offering is $35, or for $110 you can get
RM>address labels printed for sending out your own propaganda to
RM>these groups. LWalter Martin is marketing a set of videotapes
RM>for over $1800 on "cults" complete with no less than 3 tapes
RM>on "the occult".

I  bet  it  is good business! The local Craft  store  does  a  thriving
business  in large Black Candles...But there is a great deal of  possiblity
that  Pagans, Wiccans, as well as Ritual Magickians getting swept into  the
fray...on  the wrong side. I think one of the main aims of the more  public of
us should be in dis-associating ourselves from the Satanists. Not  that this
doesn't automatically happen, becuase usually the first question I  am asked
in  regards to paganism/wicca, and I am sure it happens to  you,  is something
along  the  lines  of "You  mean  you  practice  something  like Satanism?"
Ick!

I just want to make sure that it doesn't turn into a "Witch hunt",  but
substituting "Satanist" for "Witch". From what little I have read about it, it
seems that most of the criminal Satanists, would probably  be  involved with
crime  anyways, and have found a "religion" that believes  in  things simular
to their criminal tendancies. And the cheapest way to feel like  a better
person is to have Followers....

ttyl
Farrell

---
* Origin: Solsbury Hill:Home of ’ristic Computer Consultants (Opus

Msg#: 1837 *MAGICKNET*
07/00/88 13:11:00 (Read 2 Times)
From: FARRELL MCGOVERN
To: JOE TOTARO (Rcvd)
Subj: SATANISM, AND OTHER ICKY NASTIES

JT>... its no accident that the police publication you mention picked
JT>up on the Satanism thread.  You gave the mag's address as So.
JT>Orange, NJ, and there is an active & violent Satanist group that
JT>meets in South Mountain Reservation in South Orange, NJ on a
JT>regular basis.  I know of no murdered children(found ones) but
JT>all the other crimes fit.
JT>...
JT>It's all real.

This past Friday (July 1st...Canada Day!) Geroldo (SP?) had  "Satanism"
as  the  topic. The focus in the first part of the show was the  threat  to
childen  from  the  Satanists. They also had a lady who  claimed  to  be  a
Satanist,  who  admitted, on air, that she had participated in  the  ritual
sacrifice  of a baby, and how they use child molestation as a mind  control
technique for recruiting said children in their teens.

As  I  was relating this to a local priestess here, she said  that  the
time will eventually come when the Craft will have to join forces with  the
"orthodox"  (I  believe she used this to mean 'recongnized")  religions  in
fighting the "Satanism" threat.

Later  in the show the had a policeman on,  Johnathen  somethingorother
(please don't quote me on the name...I am terrible with names, but great on
faces!) was saying that he has been investingating "Occult" related crimes, and
that  the  Satanists have a highly organized  infrastructure,  and  is
connected  with  "Black  Witchcraft", and then  hurredly  said  that  these
"Black Witches" have nothing to do with the people who practice  Witchcraft
legally.

I  agree  with  the priestess, we are going to have to  help  with  the
Satanism  problem. Up here in Canada things seem a lot less prevalent  with the
Satanic Cults, or they are simply not very active here. Sure, the local Craft
store gets a lot of the "Black Candle" crowd, but there seems to  be little
recognition between them when two or more are in the store. So  they are not
very organized, or they have a highly efficient "cell" system...

I  hope  that most of the interface between groups like CoG  and  such,
since this should weed out most of the "I don't like Fredricka's group,  so I
am  going  to  call  the police and say  they  are  Satanists"  type  of
backstabbing. This would only hurt the Craft, and paganism as a whole.

ttyl
Farrell

---
* Origin: Solsbury Hill:Home of ’ristic Computer Consultants (Opus

<*>Replies



Msg#: 1995 *MAGICKNET*
07/00/88 11:41:00 (Read 2 Times)
From: DAVID RICE
To: JOE TOTARO (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1968 (RE: HERE WE GO AGAIN. PT. 2)
But. . .  But. . . . The whole point of R. Moonstones post was to point out
that the ignorant police magazine article lumpped Satanists to witchcraft and
the "occult." That is the concern under consideration.


---
* Origin: Astro-Net 714 662-2294 The Lesbian Dorm (Opus 1:103/503)

Msg#: 1997 *MAGICKNET*
07/00/88 12:20:00 (Read 2 Times)
From: DAVID RICE
To: JOE TOTARO (Rcvd)
Subj: HERE WE REALLY GO AGAIN!
What the hell?!?!? What does bikers and homosexuality have to to with
satanism!?!? Good-fucking-grief!! (sorry folks.) Where have you been for the
past 30 years?

Bikers are for the most part very decient, law abiding citizens of our
community. I rode a bike for three years and know that bikers get a lot of shit
thrown their way for little or no logical reason other than ignorance. The
Orange County Assistant D.A. rides a Harley to work.

Homosexuality is a preference, not some mental abberation that causes
lawlessness.

If there is one thing I cannot abide is oneone even more ignoarant and
intollerant than myself!


---
* Origin: Astro-Net 714 662-2294 The Lesbian Dorm (Opus 1:103/503)