[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/27/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/27/96 [11:13] A

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[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/27/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/27/96 [11:13] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) joined #apologetics. [11:13] wolfie (cafe01@ joined #Apologetics. [11:13] hullo [11:14] so what type of Atheist r u? [11:14] hi Acolyte sorry i missed your message [11:14] no problem [11:14] im a pretty learned one [11:14] ic [11:14] in what fields? [11:15] do u hold to weak or strong atheism? [11:15] zed (cafe08@ joined #Apologetics. [11:15] strong atheist in history archaelogy astronomy and others [11:15] hi zed [11:16] hey wolfie [11:16] So you deny that God exists? [11:16] Cafe (cafe07@ joined #Apologetics. [11:16] hi cafe [11:16] my fields are Epistemology, Metaphysics, and Ethics, with a background in history. [11:16] yes i do no offence but the case doesnt hold water [11:16] wolfie well what substantial sources have you consulted? [11:17] cya all later [11:17] can we cover history and tell me the other fields [11:17] zed (cafe08@ left #Apologetics. [11:17] bye zed [11:17] Wolfie Epistemology=theory of knowledge, metaphysics, theory or reality. Ethics theory of behavior [11:17] or=of [11:18] my sources Eygtian history the Jewish timeline by Rabbi Kantor [11:18] ic [11:18] so as a strong atheist u deny the existtence of a Deity? [11:18] yes [11:19] can you show im wrong [11:19] wolfie how does one verify a universal negative? [11:19] I just did [11:19] doogie (doogie@ppp-36.wspice.com) joined #apologetics. [11:19] hullo doogie [11:19] re [11:19] hi doogie [11:20] ok some questions to prove my case if i may [11:20] wolfie answer my quesitonplease [11:20] wolfie answer my quesiton please [11:20] wolfie how do you verify a universal negative? [11:20] i will [11:20] Wolfie your claim that there is no God is a universal negative, how do you verify that claim? [11:21] Simple. All you have to be is omnipotent. ;^) [11:21] Omniscient, I mean. [11:21] doogie eactly [11:21] exactly even [11:21] if there were a creator there would be evidence of this yes or no [11:21] wolfie not necessarily [11:21] wolfie thatdoes not answer my question [11:22] wolfie: Not necessarily, but there is plenty of evidence. [11:22] Wolfie the burden of proof is one you since you made a claimn to a universal negative [11:22] Wolfie how do you verify a universal negative? [11:22] ok i will form a reply brb [11:22] good [11:23] Wolfie I would encourage u to vist our web site as well for further iformation [11:23] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [11:23] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [11:25] Action: Acolyte waits [11:25] 1 To have a god is to have a purpose 2 the purpose of your god is salvation 3 your god is omnipotent so he causes man to go to hell in full knowledge of their fate [11:25] i continue [11:25] Uh... huh? [11:25] the answer will not be short carry on talking [11:25] wolfie that does not say how you KNOW that your claim that there is no God is true! How do you VERIFY a UNIVERSAL CLAIM? [11:26] WOLFIE WAIT [11:26] wolfie I asked a question, please answer is directly [11:26] wolfie I asked a question, please answer it directly [11:26] God would give proof if true yes or no [11:26] Wolfie you do you know there is NO God? How do you VERIFY that claim? [11:27] wolfie not if he did not want to, but that dstill doe snot sya how you KNOW your claimto be true [11:27] wolfie: Not necessarily. I think you should answer Acolyte's question. [11:27] Wolfie let me explain [11:27] ok [11:27] Wolfie if I say that there are NO Red cars in the world, then the burden of proof is on me to show that that every car is not red [11:28] ok if there is a god there is a religion [11:28] Wolfie wait [11:29] As far as I am concerned there is no god, but that doese not mean I will ram it down your throat my beliefs are my own as yours are yours [11:29] if there is a religion there is truth or lie [11:29] im not ramming [11:29] the truth can be tested [11:30] no religion on the planet will pass my test [11:30] wolfie: You're test is pretty lousy. You say "no God," but won't back up your claim. [11:31] wolfie: You can't back up your claim, actually, but you won't admit to it. [11:31] ok my test [11:31] 1 time [11:31] 2 people [11:31] sigh. [11:31] wolfie, so you would have to show that there is NO GOD ANYWHERE to know that there is no God, hence a universal negative claim, to be able to do that, you would have to KNOW everything and BE everywhere, whichs is impossible, hen ce you canot KNOW that [11:31] there is NO GOD [11:31] Wolfie if I say that there are NO Red cars in the world, then the burden of proof is on me to show that that every car is not red [11:31] wolfie, so you would have to show that there is NO GOD ANYWHERE to know that there is no God, hence a universal negative claim, to be able to do that, you would have to KNOW everything and BE everywhere, whichs is impossible, hen ce you canot KNOW that [11:31] there is NO GOD [11:31] Acolyte: I still don't think he understands. Heh. [11:32] doggie I made it pretty simple [11:32] Acolyte you type faster than me my replies r being cut to answer you [11:32] woflie hence your claim is menaingless [11:32] Wolfie that is because U have not answered my question [11:33] i will now WAIT [11:33] wolfie it is LOGICALLY impossible to verify a universal negative, as the AGNOSTIC Philosopher Bertrand Russell clearly showd in his Principia Mathmatica [11:34] wolfie that is why philosophers who are atheists NO longer claimt hat there is no God, but they only presenly claim that there is not sufficient evidence for belief in God. which is by far very different claim than the one u are making [11:35] Wolfie since u are in England, I suggest you read the works of a British Theist Philosopher who is head of the Philosophy at Oxford. [11:36] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: The Home of Rational Theism [11:36] A god has a purpose that is religion with its history and values and his revelation no god has revealed himself to all men and no god could control billions and billions of particles of universal matter [11:36] his name is Richard Swinburne [11:36] wolfie: You're not even making sense now. "No God could control billions and billions of particles of universal matter." Why? Why would an omnipotent being be "more able" to control a smaller amount? That makes no sense. [11:37] Give me the oldest god created on the planet it is not the Jewish god hence man created god I suggest you read Karl Marx and his theories [11:38] wolfie, that still does not answer my question [11:38] Acolyte: I'm getting tired of wolfie. [11:38] Acolyte: How about you? [11:38] Wolfie that is circular arhument, since u assume that God is made up [11:39] Wolfie how do you verify YOUR claim? [11:39] Wolfie I have read MARX and hegel for that matter. Marxism is dead philosophically speaking. [11:40] all countries have made up their own gods chemical processes make up the universe not spiritual ones [11:40] *yawn* [11:40] wolfie if that were the case, then you know nothing since chemcials do not KNOW anything [11:40] if you know Marx then you know that men in power made god to keep it [11:41] ok i agree with that [11:41] wolfie: "If you know Marx then you know..." is a fault claim. One doesn't not necessarily believe Marx if they read him. Sheesh. [11:41] Cassidy_ (cassidy7@mvo-ca8-15.ix.netcom.com) joined #apologetics. [11:41] fault = faulty [11:41] wolfie, if your thoughts are mere chemcials then your thoughts are determined by natural law, which means that you do not believe what you do beause u think its true, but because nature determined u to think it, hence your though ts have NO Truth value, [11:41] hence wolfie U are a Nihilist [11:42] Wolfie prove your claim? Marx claimed that, but he NEVER EVER proved that to be the case. [11:42] not a nihilist I AM THEREFORE I THINK not the opposite [11:42] Wolfie btw, like Moses was in SO much power in Egypt under Pharaoh [11:42] newsong (newsong@perham-7.dialup.cfa.org) joined #apologetics. [11:43] Wolfie, you are a nihilist since your chemcials in your head are not ABOUT anting, they are mere, chemical reactions that are determined bynature [11:43] correct thats why he took power outside Egypt [11:43] Wolfie, oh and how did he TAKE power IN Egypt against Pharaoh? [11:44] i said out of Eygpt [11:44] wolfie, if your thoughts are mere chemcials then they mean NOTHING, they are detemined by natural law, and hence there is no way to verify if they are true or false [11:44] wolf....now Im intewrested...can mutually determined actions/thoughts have different truth values|? [11:44] Wolfie so u did, so what? the acount says he had power IN Egypt [11:44] cassidy can they have any truth value? [11:44] hey newsong [11:44] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu [11:44] hey...Acol [11:45] good question Aco...I believe mine can. [11:46] wolfie if your thoughts are chemical reactions thenu think what youdo because nature CAUSED u to think it, not because you think it is true, you have NO VOLITION, you have NO WILL, hnec eyou make only determined choices that natu re causes in you to occur. [11:46] ive 5 mins left at the net would like to continue another day i know you think im thick but i ll be back hopefully to prove my case in particular against the Jewish bible [11:46] wolfie hence u KNOW nothing [11:46] wolfie please visit out web page [11:46] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [11:47] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [11:47] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [11:47] wolfe...use the 5 minutes......give us somethin to chew on, huh? [11:47] if i know nothing that proves there can be no god [11:47] I think u will get the education of your life [11:47] hmmmmm [11:47] wolfie right it does, it also proves that you don't know it either [11:47] Acol...what do you think of Josh Mcdowell stuff [11:47] wolfie it means life is impossible, hence YOUR view of thw world defeats itself [11:47] newsong basic [11:47] hehehehe... [11:48] wolfie our view of thw world makes knowledge possible, yours makes science, ethics, everything IMpossible [11:49] wolfie if you can;t know then you can;t do science [11:49] wolfie your worldview is self defeating. You don't even knw your own NAME under your worldview [11:50] wolf...I dont see the connection you've made twice between YOUR knowledgr of God and the Dependance of God's existance and attributes based on that knowledge. [11:50] Chew on this on the OT only 6000 yr ago Adam was created 4000 yr ago the Flood over 3000 yr ago Moses lived. Study 200 pharoahs of Eygpt in that timeframe [11:50] last min bfn [11:50] wolfie...rapid fire, huh? perhaps one of your objections will stick....but we prefer exhausting one topic at a time. [11:51] wolfie hence, that is why I am a Theist, since it provides for science, knowledge, ethics, etc. Your view is impossible. How can you build a civilization on NOTHING? [11:51] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [11:51] visit the web page ok? [11:51] wolfie email me after u do [11:51] ~st_aidan@deltanet.com [11:59] wolfie (cafe01@ left irc: Ping timeout for wolfie[]Original file name:log_4_27_96.txt [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_4_27_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../


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