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[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/15/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/15/96 [04:03] Mook (markg@slipr13.anu.edu.au) joined #apologetics. [04:04] Nomos (Alethia@kuts12p06.cc.ukans.edu) joined #Apologetics. [04:05] Hi again, Nom. [04:05] hi [04:05] Nomos (Alethia@kuts12p06.cc.ukans.edu) left #Apologetics. [04:07] Nomos (Alethia@kuts12p06.cc.ukans.edu) joined #Apologetics. [04:07] hi better? [04:07] Hi. [04:07] Server change? [04:07] should be better [04:07] yea [04:07] what port are you on? [04:07] port? [04:07] numero? [04:07] 6662, I think. [04:07] ok [04:07] hang on [04:07] brb [04:07] Nomos (Alethia@kuts12p06.cc.ukans.edu) left irc: [04:08] Nomos (Alethia@kuts12p06.cc.ukans.edu) joined #Apologetics. [04:08] should be better [04:08] Okay. :) [04:08] ahh [04:08] yea [04:08] :) [04:08] excellent [04:08] 1 second [04:08] I get 6s from here. [04:08] hmmm...I get one [04:08] But that's managable anyway. [04:08] regardless....still better [04:08] sure. [04:08] you believe in God when it is necessary [04:09] ? [04:09] care to exaplin? [04:09] explain rather [04:09] Well, my beliefs change according to what I want to do with them. [04:09] ok [04:09] Except that some of them change hardly at all. [04:09] what are your beliefs about God? [04:09] monotheistic? [04:09] poly? [04:09] pan? [04:09] If necessary. [04:09] huh? [04:09] :) [04:10] Yes. Sometimes. [04:10] sometimes all? [04:10] ever read the Bible? [04:10] Sometimes. [04:10] What other holy books do you read? [04:10] what do you think about it? [04:10] It's very dry. But it's very wise in places. [04:10] oh...I have read many....but I am a Christian all the way through [04:11] koran [04:11] Book of MOrmon [04:11] Pearl of Great Price [04:11] Doctrine and Covenants [04:11] I don't know the last two. [04:11] mormon scripture [04:11] Mmm. [04:11] jataka [04:12] li chi book of ritual [04:12] tibetian book of the dead [04:12] apocrypha [04:13] mahaparinirvana sutra [04:13] etc [04:13] etc [04:13] etc [04:13] etc [04:13] :) [04:13] you? [04:13] Heh. :) [04:13] do you know about Jesus? [04:14] what he did and the claims he made? [04:14] A different set, I think. Pieces of the Upanishads, bits of the Q'ran, bits of the Bible. Bits of a book whose name I can't recall, but which explains the eightfold path of Zen.. [04:14] Stories of Jesus are part of my cultural heritage. There are a lot of them, but I know many of the significant ones. [04:15] do you know what he taught was the only way to God? [04:15] As I understand it, he was quoted as saying that you have to believe in him, and pray in his name. Otherwise, you're screwed. [04:15] I think you got it...somewhat [04:16] believe in Him in what way though...... [04:16] ? [04:16] you can say you believe in me too...that I exist anyway. [04:16] my point being... [04:16] He's quoted as having made the claim repeatedly that he was the son of god, and many have since commented that his purpose was to die to exonerate man from a lot of sinning. [04:16] even the devil would believe in his existence [04:16] great [04:17] man is a fallen creature due to sin [04:17] As proof of which, he's reported to have risen from the dead three days after being buried in a cave. [04:17] and therefore separated from God [04:17] amen [04:17] and he did. [04:17] :) [04:17] according to Jesus...there is only one way to wipe that sin from your body [04:18] and that is to accept him as your payment [04:18] Mmmm. [04:18] I'm a little confused about that. [04:18] thus...HIs righteouness is judged at the day of judgement [04:18] and not yours [04:18] ok [04:18] maybe I can help [04:18] maybe I cannot [04:18] but I'll try [04:18] what are you confused with? [04:18] Jesus did not sin. [04:18] The idea of Jesus' death as payment. My knowledge of the bible is incomplete, but it's not clear that he ever actually said that this was the purpose of his death. [04:19] he lived a perfect life according to the Law of God [04:19] I know the 'this is my body... this is my blood' bit.. [04:19] the Last Supper. [04:19] But there's also the 'Why have you forsaken me' bit, which was also quoted. [04:19] And wh ich occurred while he was hanging. [04:19] yes...He was quoting from Isaiah when he said that [04:19] that was a quote from Isaiah [04:19] eli eli, lambda sabachthani - is what he said (in aramiac) [04:20] you don't understand how he was the payment? [04:20] I'm unsure that the death for death thing isn't a later construction. [04:21] not at all. [04:21] it is the whole theme of the book of Leviticus [04:21] ever read it? [04:21] I don't recall it by name. [04:21] 3rd book in the bible [04:21] My concern is whether there's a direct quote to suggest that this was his intention, or whether it was an interpretation, described as a revealed truth by an apostle or prophet. [04:22] do you know what separates Christianity from every other religion? [04:22] From what I've seen, every religion is separate from every other religion, but in different ways. [04:22] Please tell me what is the Christian distinction. [04:23] religion is man's way working to God [04:23] for part of, or all of salvation [04:23] Action: Mook listens. [04:23] Christianity is God reaching down to man [04:23] and not of mans efforts..merits..or works. [04:23] it is a free gift [04:23] all you can do is accept it [04:23] and consider what comes with it. [04:23] John 3:36 [04:24] he that believeth on the son hath everlasting life [04:24] What does Nomos mean? Is it Greek for 'name'? [04:24] he that believeth not on the SOn shall not see life, but the wrath of God abidith on him [04:24] it is greek for "law" [04:24] good guess though [04:24] koine greek to be precise [04:24] Thank you. [04:24] not modern or classical [04:24] :) [04:24] consider.. [04:25] Lu 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, {by: or, for} [04:25] remission of sins [04:25] the whole theme of the Gospels was that Christ's blood..suffering on the cross was the payment for a fallen creature [04:25] this _is_ the Gospel [04:25] :) [04:26] all you would have to do is accept Christ as your saviour...and you can be assured eternal life. [04:26] seems pretty simple eh? [04:26] too simple you say? [04:26] :) [04:26] Mook (markg@slipr13.anu.edu.au) left irc: Read error to Mook[slipr13.anu.edu.au]: Connection reset by peer [04:26] Nomos (Alethia@kuts12p06.cc.ukans.edu) left #Apologetics. [04:27] Mook (markg@slipr13.anu.edu.au) joined #apologetics. [04:29] Nomos (Alethia@kuts12p06.cc.ukans.edu) joined #Apologetics. [04:29] hola [04:29] Hi again. :) [04:29] did you get what I said? [04:29] The last thing I saw: Nomos: koine greek to be precise [04:29] hmm...bummer. [04:29] I was giving you the Gospel [04:30] I have a book at home that can do that, Nomos. [04:30] The reason I'm here isn't to read that book. It's to talk to you. [04:30] ok [04:30] what would you like to talk about?> [04:31] Well, I'd like to know why rational theism is important to you. [04:31] Or if it's not, what opinion you have about it. [04:32] From talking to you, I can tell that you're very well read, and have a lot of commitment to what you believe. [04:32] rational theism.... [04:32] yes...it is very important to me. [04:32] Although I don't believe in all those things, neither do I think it's stupid to do so. [04:32] I'm mainly interested in what gains you get in the here and now. [04:32] ok [04:32] I get to serve my Lord [04:32] :) [04:33] I get to be adopted in his family [04:33] Please stop a minute. [04:33] and have a 'pretty' bright future ahead of me [04:33] :) [04:33] ok [04:33] Please imagine that I have no idea what those things mean, and no way of imagining them, except as they affect your relationships and your attitude to the world around you. [04:33] ok [04:33] If you can imagine that, and explain to an idiot, then I reckon you'll be making perfect sense to me. :) [04:34] :) [04:34] I understand.. [04:34] God created me....and you. [04:34] I was fallen in sin...for most of my life. [04:34] Eeee... [04:34] This isn't working well. [04:34] God ave me the chance to wipe all of the sins away. [04:34] ok [04:34] sorry [04:34] I don't know why sin is a problem in your relationships or your world. [04:35] I don't know why your origins have anything to do with your purpose in life. [04:35] what do I get from all this...in simple terms? [04:35] Mm. Please! [04:35] And I'm interested in why rational theism is better than irrational theism. :) [04:35] I get to have fellowship with the author of all creation. [04:35] If that's the right word. [04:35] I can talk to my creator as I would my father or friend [04:35] that is not my topic heading... [04:36] but...I would say that my theology is rational ;) [04:36] Please go on. [04:36] I'll save my questions to the end. Or until I can't read any more. :) [04:36] heeh [04:36] go ahead and ask now as I have a feeeling I may not be answering your questions right [04:36] Well... [04:37] Are your relationships now better or worse for your faith? [04:37] I get a lot of satisfaction.....through service..even if this means suffering and all that [04:37] Do you get on better with people? Do you understand more of what they want? [04:37] a lot better...with God's help [04:37] yes [04:37] Do you find that there are kinds of people you can't get on with, as a result of your faith? [04:37] Ie, have you lost contact with some kinds of people as a result? [04:38] although I am still a sinner...we are all...I can see my error pretty clearly..and work from there. [04:38] yes [04:38] my family somewhat [04:38] I was raised pretty atheist [04:38] Mmmm. [04:38] they don't have much to do with me anymore [04:38] saddly [04:38] Do you see those people as less important to you than the people you can get on with? [04:38] of course...they livfe all over this globe...so that makes it a wee hard. [04:38] not at all.... [04:38] my family is very important to me. [04:39] and I want the best for everyone...including you of course....even though we have never met and neveer will. [04:39] I would guess anayway [04:39] What is your vision for interacting with these people, then? [04:39] to give them what I have [04:39] and to be a friend [04:39] What do you want to learn, to help you communicate? [04:39] and to help them if I can [04:40] how to reach differnt types of people [04:40] and not to offend then when I am trying to help them [04:40] to make clear my intentions.... [04:40] What is it you lack at the moment? [04:40] to be the best witness I can to my Lord. [04:40] everything [04:41] can I be more specific....ok [04:41] I am always trying to improve my faith [04:41] I mean: with regard to your relationships with people you'd like to be closer to. [04:41] to have a stronger relationship with God.... [04:41] through Christ [04:41] ok [04:41] maybe I lack patience sometimes [04:42] I lack understanding too [04:42] You're the first Christian I've spoken to who's ever said that. [04:42] hmmmm...... [04:43] Mmm. I mean, the first strongly committed evangelist who's ever said that. [04:43] Let me ask another question. [04:43] ok [04:43] Do you distrust the love of people who don't share your faith? [04:43] admitting how little you know is the first step I tink [04:43] no. [04:43] how so [04:43] ? [04:43] distrust in what sense? [04:44] In the sense of, are you capable of receiving love from people who are not Christians with the same open-heartedness that you receive love from people who are? [04:44] I'm sorry that I can't be more definitive than that. I'm finding it hard to pick the right words. [04:44] oh...in a huge sense I would say...I wouldn't do what I do if I did not [04:45] I can receive peoples love ....remember...my family does not have my faith [04:45] yet [04:45] :) [04:45] is that the answer you're looking for? [04:45] kinda? [04:46] I know more than I did, but I'm still unsure if I asked the right question, or got the right answer. :) [04:46] finding the right words by the way gets a lot harder this late [04:46] Heh. [04:46] hehe [04:46] It's earlier here in Australia, but I understand. :) [04:46] This is not a well thought out conversation for me. [04:46] ahhh....you're way over there, [04:46] Yes! [04:46] what time is it there? [04:46] So.. rational theism. What are the benefits of rationality in something that works by love and faith? [04:47] It's 6:47pm on the East side of the continent. [04:47] are love and faith irrational? [04:47] ahh..it is 4am here.. [04:47] My love and faith are by fiat. [04:47] or 3:43 anyway [04:47] fiat? huh? [04:47] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) joined #apologetics. [04:47] aco! [04:47] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu [04:47] hullo nomos [04:47] aco aco [04:47] Hi, Acolyte. [04:48] this is late for you [04:48] hullo mook [04:48] not really [04:48] I work nights [04:48] ok [04:48] late for me then [04:48] 11pm to 7am [04:48] Heh. :) [04:48] So.. rational theism. What are the benefits of rationality in something that works by love and faith? [04:48] acolyte...? [04:48] nomos what? [04:49] care to answer that one... [04:49] So.. rational theism. What are the benefits of rationality in something that works by love and faith? [04:49] I don't think love and faith are irrational. For me, they are arational. [04:49] yes. [04:49] I think so. [04:49] Mook Love qand Faith are rational, they go hand in hand [04:49] Mook, all of reality is interrelated [04:50] If I set out to love something, then I do. If I set out to believe in something, then I can. I don't have to have good, rational reasons to succeed. I can succeed without them. [04:50] Mmm. I'm not here to debate or criticise. :) [04:50] not according to Descartes [04:50] heh [04:50] Mook how can you sometyhing that u do not know or believe in? [04:50] Mook well what is your paradigm? [04:50] I'm not sure. [04:50] Mook ic [04:50] mook are you a theist? [04:50] From experience, I know that I can love those things I see, regardless of how much of them I understand. [04:51] I can also have faith in things I don't see, regardless of how silly this might seem to the rest of my experience. [04:51] Mook this is very true, but the goal os love is not only to know, hgence it goes beyond reason in some sense, but reasons does things that love does not [04:51] Mmok the difference is one of function, not of a kind of separation of the man [04:52] Action: Mook tries to understand. Please talk on, since he's not sure what to ask. [04:52] Action: Nomos suggests asking about eternal life... [04:52] :) [04:52] Mook, I believe about manby things I don't see, but I don't belief in pink unicorns, things that are not reasonable in some sence [04:53] Action: Mook furrows his brow, and listens more. [04:53] yes...but what seems reasonablle to you, possibly not reasonable to others [04:53] vice versa [04:53] Nomos, hence the use of logic [04:53] Action: Mook has no problem believing in pink unicorns. The only reason he doesn't is that he hasn't found a use for believing in them. [04:53] hence [04:53] can you prove God's existence logically? [04:53] well..I suppose you could [04:53] Nomos what do you think of Oneness theoilogy? [04:53] Nomos yes [04:53] Bugs-B (pcrowley@alb-nm1-02.ix.netcom.com) joined #apologetics. [04:54] I think it is not good [04:54] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu: The Home of Rational Theism [04:54] Hi, Bugs. [04:54] Nomos good [04:54] Hi Mook [04:54] hi bugs [04:54] Hi Nomos [04:54] I am gonna invite one here [04:54] Just passing through a moment guys :) [04:54] hey bugs....what is #AskFemaleAnything all about? [04:54] ok [04:54] hehe [04:54] aco...interesting [04:54] Nomos: from what I can tell -- just a new chat channel [04:54] aco: i cannot stay on much longer.. [04:54] . [04:55] bugs: kewl [04:55] Acts2_38 (b.fleisch@wisof9.WiSo.Uni-Augsburg.DE) joined #apologetics. [04:55] aco: UPC? [04:55] Nomos, please accept my thanks for your time and your thoughts. [04:55] Nomos ask him [04:55] Nomos: but the name seems to be drawing in some fruitcakes.. :) [04:55] hello. Acolyte [04:55] mook: I enjoyed chatting with you [04:55] hullo acts [04:55] bugs: i can imagine [04:55] hi acts [04:55] Nomos: Oh well... they should have figured, hm? :)) hehehe [04:55] Acts: are you UPC? [04:55] As a diversion, Nomos, or because something has changed for you? [04:55] Yes [04:55] Nomos: :)) [04:55] I'm UPC [04:55] Why? [04:55] Acts no, your nick was not [04:56] Acts Trinitarians use that passage as well ya know [04:56] mook: well..it is 4 am here...I guess that is a diversion [04:56] heheh [04:56] Well, Good Night guys! :) [04:56] Bugs-B (pcrowley@alb-nm1-02.ix.netcom.com) left #apologetics. [04:56] take care Bugs [04:56] Understood. Thank you. [04:56] acts, how long have u been Oneness? [04:56] I have seen it once in a Catholic pamphlet on baptism. :) [04:56] didn't know that. [04:56] What about UPC? [04:56] Action: Mook loses track of what people are talking about. [04:56] as in the Great Commision? [04:56] Action: Mook waves a cheery farewell, and hopes to talk again sometime. [04:56] UPC=United Pentacostal Church [04:56] bye mook [04:57] bye mooko [04:57] acts, how long have u been Oneness? [04:57] Bye, Nomo. [04:57] take care and I hope to see you again [04:57] I expect you shall, unless one of us dies soon. [04:57] Ciao! [04:57] Mook (markg@slipr13.anu.edu.au) left #apologetics. =============================================================== [19:47] NedFlndrs (dananova@ppp24.snni.com) joined #apologetics. [19:47] Hi Proff!!!! [19:47] hehehee [20:18] QuaZar (QuaZar@max3c.netropolis.net) joined #apologetics. [20:18] hey [20:18] whats up? [20:18] nothing [20:19] you can speak freely about it in here [20:19] :) [20:19] ..... [20:19] so.... [20:19] are you well studied in Wiccan beliefs? [20:19] ^Sioux (chance@ppp19.snni.com) joined #apologetics. [20:19] i am a CoS satanist. ive talked to many wiccans [20:19] i have studied. [20:19] CoC..??...define for me [20:20] CoS [20:20] have you studied any Christian literature at all? [20:20] church of satan formed in 1966 by Anton LaVey [20:20] ahhhh [20:20] yes ive read christian literature [20:20] Action: NedFlndrs owns a satanic Bible [20:21] do you hold to the tennants in the satanists bible? [20:21] by Anton LaVey ned? [20:21] yes [20:21] The one with the petangram on it [20:22] well its more of phophophy (sp?) than anything. [20:22] black cover [20:22] a what? [20:22] LOL [20:22] and yes a agree with most of the stuff in there [20:22] Most??...what do you not agree with? [20:23] well being most is everything that i can think of there might be a few things i missed while reading [20:23] there might or might not be anything i don't agree with . [20:24] hhmmm [20:24] you do know that it doesnt premote killing of animals,humans right ned? [20:24] or hurting people [20:25] well...do you agree with the electro-static release from a sacrafice [20:25] No..I dont know...cause its states so clearly [20:25] there is no sacraficing in CoS. [20:25] maybe not in the church... [20:25] well there isnt ned [20:25] but the book states so [20:26] Dont make me show you from your own literature [20:26] LOL [20:26] :) [20:26] "thou shalt do what thou wilt is the whole of the law"??...<-------sound familiar? [20:27] whats that mean? [20:27] that do what you want to do that is in the law [20:28] Right....so could I not cut your head of and be well within the teachings of CoS? [20:28] of=off [20:28] there is no point of sacraficing in CoS. [20:29] yes there is.... [20:29] the book talks about the "life force" that is realeased... [20:29] there is no belief of Satan. Satan is used as a metphor [20:29] man...you need to read your bible bro [20:29] i have . [20:29] Friend (jcmoffit@ joined #apologetics. [20:29] you need to talk to CoS satanist [20:30] I thought I was [20:30] ?? [20:30] Action: Friend waves and smiles at everyone [20:30] Action: NedFlndrs is confused [20:30] other than me. and you should get the same answer [20:30] Quazar.... [20:30] sa [20:30] so you mean to tell me that you dont believe in "evil" [20:31] Hi Friend [20:31] hey ned [20:31] is this a satanism channel ? [20:31] evil is in the eye of the beholder. you can give a def for evil that works for all people [20:31] <^Sioux> wait a minute...Im confused... [20:31] yes #satan [20:31] cant i mean [20:32] Quazar...please give me YOUR defenition of EVIL [20:32] :) [20:33] evil = something that you believe to dislike or hate even though other people might like that. [20:33] <^Sioux> you said before that there is no belief OF satan...then what is the belief OF and IN ? [20:33] ok...kool....what do you mean by hate? [20:33] Sue...self [20:33] one self sioux [20:33] <^Sioux> oic [20:33] Sue...they are thier own god. [20:33] hate = anything you dislike [20:33] excuse me everyone, sorry for interrupting this conversation but what is this channel about please [20:34] Apologetics;( from the greek word, apologia), The word apologia means..... [20:34] A defense or justification of one's beliefs, attitudes, or actions. [20:34] An Apologetic is the branch of theology that defends the claims of Christianity. [20:34] An apologist is a person who defends an idea, faith, cause, or institution. [20:34] <^Sioux> tell him Ned [20:34] ^that [20:34] hehehee beat ya sue [20:34] <^Sioux> hahaa [20:34] Action: Friend is happy that someone verified that, thanks [20:35] :) [20:35] anyways.... [20:35] and the point of that was? [20:35] Quazar.... [20:35] do you believe in absolute evil? [20:35] no. [20:36] relative evil? [20:36] i believe in that evil is in the mind of who ever thinks that person is evil [20:36] k [20:36] Quazar....what makes something evil? [20:37] Quazar...you dont believe in God ...right? [20:37] Quazar=atheist [20:37] ? [20:37] are you a naturalist as well? [20:38] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu: The Home of Rational Theism [20:38] i dont believe god right [20:38] tigerman (jtiger@ppp2.cyberview.net) joined #apologetics. [20:38] i dont believe in a godly (or semigodly) satan. [20:38] Friend (jcmoffit@ left #apologetics. [20:38] Hi tigerman [20:38] hi ned [20:38] Quazar=atheist? [20:38] are you a naturalist as well? [20:39] There are no atheists in foxholes [20:39] naturalist as being what? [20:40] that the world is purely naturalistic?? [20:40] Quazar=atheist? [20:40] in a sense i am Atheist. [20:41] <^Sioux> well if you dont believe in God or satan ...sounds to me to be just another new-agey 'i got the power' thing [20:41] <^Sioux> sounds palatable so I follow it... [20:42] no sioux [20:42] andrel (cinemudo@ joined #apologetics. [20:42] AJDeValle (AJDeValle@www-16-26.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [20:42] <^Sioux> no absolute anything... [20:43] hello everybody [20:43] the absolute thing is one self [20:43] AJDeValle (AJDeValle@www-16-26.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [20:43] what about are you talking ! I speak crazy english in brazil [20:43] you are your own "god" ( "god" doesnt mean you can do anything you want) [20:43] <^Sioux> that goes back to my 'i got the power' comment [20:44] andrel (cinemudo@ left irc: Leaving [20:44] Qauzar.....define the term god? [20:44] what parameters does a god have? [20:45] <^Sioux> if i am a god my powers are definitly limited [20:45] look at christianity sioux. you have to follow these laws just to make sure that you live a 2nd life. [20:45] Quazar....do you "rationaly think" about your beliefs...or do you just believe what you want? [20:45] i rationally think about my beliefs [20:45] Quazar...that a fallacy......... [20:45] Red Herring; The fallacy of diverting attention to an extraneous issue rather than providing evidence for the claim. This is a rabbit trail away from the real issue at hand. [20:45] This fallacy deters the argument and trys to win the argument by another unrelated issue. It avoids the original issue all together. [20:46] Qauzar.....define the term god? [20:46] <^Sioux> thanks Ned [20:46] what parameters does a god have? [20:46] :) [20:46] and....you stll have the questin..of naturalism. [20:47] you can not define the term god ned. [20:47] stll=still [20:47] Quazar...sayyyyyyy what?????/ [20:47] QuaZar (QuaZar@max3c.netropolis.net) left irc: Excess flood [20:47] quazar...that is non sensical [20:47] ^Sioux (chance@ppp19.snni.com) left irc: God always gives the answers....all we need to do is listen :) [20:48] hmmmmm [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_5_15_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../


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