Here's an interesting one. A guy got very upset when he discovered that I have a Wiccan on staff to assist in answering questions concerning Pagani and Wicca -- two closely-related Earth-centered religions which are growing in numbers in the United States and, indeed, within all Westernized countries.

This unfortunate individual called the staff member in question "Incubus" and would neither explain his hate-filled comment nor answer any questions requesting evidence for his freakisk claims.

Witness the result of my asking the poor guy for specifics on why he hates Pagani and Wicca. While he never answered the question, I got a flood of bizarre, twisted claims and out-and-out lies.

If you (the viewer) have ever evaluated the way the so-called "monotheistic" religions despise Pagani and Wicca, none of the following will be new to you; we've all seen this petty religious bigotry many times before. The new twist is the way this guy tries to work biological sciences in with life-affirming religions -- it's really bizarre.

Take a look. I think the reason why this guy is so upset is because I have the audacity to demarcate the historic Christianity from life-affirming religions. He might have been happier had I been able to point toward all religions and point out their bloody faults.

Since Wicca is less than some 80 years old, however, and neo-Pagani has no history of genocide and mass tyranny against the innocent, there is a clear line of demarcation which morally splits Christianity from these two life-affirming religions.

Another possibility for his resentment is the growth of life-affirming religions and the so-called "New Age" -- which isn't really as new as believers would like to think it is. As membership in the Christian religion continues its four decade long decline, there is a definite growth in rabidity among the slowly dieing Christian religion.

Even as mainstream Christianity dies, its followers are giving it up for the more rabid, zealous, and irrationally insane brand names, leaving the number of sane, loving Christians in the minority.

Oh: Take note of this poor guy's email address: "devilfoe." That certainly tells us a little something about the education and the unfortunate reasons behind his postings.


Mon 27 Oct 97 0:58

Fredric Rice:
I would love to get from you some specifics about why you find Pagani and/or Wicca so distasteful. In your own words (if you can) would you offer a brief summation?

David Ragland:
In my own words, if I can? Barb after barb you hurl for no reason at all and you dare to speak of anyone's level of morality. <BARF!>

My own words? Here are some words for you, Fred:

If you are purposely _trying_ to appear pathetic, I am greatly impressed by your efforts. If you have reached this wretched state/emergence by more honest means, then I guess you are to be pitied after all.

Nevertheless, let us get to that summation you've pretended to want. Truth is; you no doubt have an ulterior motive for asking this. Not a problem.

Fred Rice comments: Paranoid beliefs are evident in most of this guy's messages which he posts in the FidoNet HolySmoke echo. He has managed to convince himself that everyone who's not a Christian has been taken over by one of his Christian gods. When honest questions are asked, he assumes some hidden agenda.

I will play along as I have nothing to lose except more of my respect for you, if that's at all _possible_. Moreover, you failed utterly in making your inquiry here... simply an inquiry. That's right. You just had to go and throw Skeptic Tank hypocrisy into the mix, Fred. So you will _not_ get a brief summation only. Verily, verily I say unto you; I will deliver the full treatment on this one. <ROFL!>

Fredric Rice:
Naturally I suspect that you hate these religions because they are both undeniably superior in morality, ethics, and ideology than your cult yet I would like to know what your excuses are.

David Ragland:
Naturally, you are lying. You suspect nothing of the sort and you know it. You don't believe the lie you are telling yet, you expect me to. Shame on ya, Fred. You will go to hell for crap like that. Oops! Did I just judge you and say "crap" to boot? Yep, I think I did. Man, what a formidible lil' stumbling block you are!

Fred Rice comments: If I understand these bizarre claims correctly, he is claiming that I don't consider Pagani and Wicca to be life-affirming religions for some reason. In fact I have investigated these religions up-front and personally by attending Pagan gatherings in the mountains of Colorado and have investigated those who follow these religions in great detail.

Why he wants to pretend I don't really accept that they're life-affirming religions is telling: He doesn't like the fact that he can't come up with any reason why they're not.

You know perfectly well why I will have nothing to do with Wicca and the like.

If it was indeed a superior faith, I would be proselytized by this mere knowledge and personal acknowledgment alone; no one else would have to talk me into it. I would need no mentor or mediator. What you are talking about, makes no sense and you know it. Why would anyone `recognize' a belief system as "undeniably superior" and recoil in knee jerk fashion without a further thought? Forget that for now.

Fred Rice comments: The irony compells pity. This guy is a Christian. No doubt he believes that he was born one and no one had to indoctrinate him into the religion.

I will forego the logic sermon as it would be a wasted effort to engage in such for `your' benefit only. I will just feed His sheep for now, if they are reading this:

Wicca itself, is an attempt to re-create European (predominantly) shamanistic nature religion. Wiccans are worshippers of the Earth and it's cycles. They believe that deity is found not only outside of our realm, or plane of existence, but that it is found within every living thing and all that supports it. Ever have a discussion with R. Smith about this, Fred? Does he claim to attempt to live in harmony with the Earth, and each of it's creatures?

Did you try to `make' him believe that a deity construct was not necessary for such an endeavor and that his chosen path and modus operandi was a waste of intellect and effort? If you didn't, you are being both prejudicial and hypocritical, Fred.

You rail against Christianity because of it's `alleged' deviation from logical thinking by espousing veneration of a Deity construct. Yet, I have not once heard you complain about the _same_ tendencies of the Pagan faith.

Fred Rice comments: In fact the guy is mistaken. I unquestionably underscore the historic evil of Christianity and the hatred and evil it was founded upon. In this fact Christianity isn't unique; Islam, Judism, and even Buddhism have been historically deadly and tyranical to the innocent. Neither Pagani nor Wicca, however, have been.

What's more, neither religions have a method whereby such abuses can be justified. There is no mythology of "sin" and the fictional "cure" which can be used to justify murdering people in some Orwellian mode of "saving" them.

That Wicca and Pagani employ mystical and unevidenced beliefs is true. That they, unlike Christianity, harm no one is also true -- a truth which this zealot would like to ignore.

What sets them apart, Fred? If it's their pathetic reluctance to engage in proseletyzation, then you should construct your dishonest atheistic rants accordingly. Why play the broken record labeled "Let me see the evidence!" if the bee in your bonnet is _really_ the result of Christian evangelism?

Wicca is worship of the creation and not the creator. I suppose I see hear yet another reason why you wear the hypocrite label so proudly, Fred.

Fred Rice comments: We see that the guy has no real idea about what either Pagani or Wicca actually is and what Wiccans and Pagans actually believe.

The worship of nature is a lot like the worship of your god, EVOLUTION, isn't it!? Nature just up and created itself eh, Fred? Explain polystrate fossils, Fred.

Fred Rice comments: Fundamentalist "reasoning." He is upset that I don't have any gods or goddesses so he seeks to make biological sciences into a god and hand it to me. He then launches a series of Creationist lies to "defend" his latest deity construct. Bizarre.

Another reason that I don't subscribe to the tenets of this faith is simply this:

The basis for Wiccan moral conduct is found in the statement; "An Ye Harm None, Do What Thou Wilt." This mock archaic phrase, suggests that any behavior that harms no one else, is esprit de corps. Harm is here defined by anything that takes away, or works against an individual's free will.

Fred Rice comments: Actually, harm is "defined here" as it is defined in the dictionary: Injury, damage, hurt. For obvious reasons the Christian would like to redefine commonly-used words to meet his preconceived prejudices.

However, it is, of course, impossible to exist, or even cease to exist, without causing harm. So Wiccans are deluded into thinking that they are in good graces by their efforts to try and fulfill this as closely as possible. They attempt to make choices based on what will cause the least harm, and promote the greatest overall positive effect.

Fred Rice comments: No specifics about how Wiccans and Pagans are "impossible to exist without causing harm." It's a straw-man argument any way: Neither Wicca nor Pagani state that harm is avoidable -- most eat animal flesh and contribute to the pollution of the planet.

What Wiccans and Pagans attempt to do is refrain from deliberate, unavoidable harm. Contrast that ideology to the evils of Christianity and we see which one is superior.

Let's have a much needed reiteration here:

". . . promote the greatest overall positive effect."

They try to promote positive effects by hugging trees and teaching people to worship what is under our feet instead of He who created it all? Do they hope to effect positive results by hammering steel spikes in trees which, cause fatal chainsaw accidents? You know, the victims of little pranks leave families behind! Some life affirming religion you have committed intellectual suicide for, Fred.

Fred Rice comments: Another freakish series of unevidenced claims. The people who spike trees -- groups such as "Earth First!" -- have never caused a "chainsaw accident." There has only been one incident of where a spiked log caused someone personal injury. It was a spike driven into a tree which was already felled and which was marked as having been spiked.

And the traditional fundamentalist dishonesty springs to the forefront: He wants to pretend that Wiccans and Pagans spike trees for some reason. Few -- if any -- members of tree-spiking groups are either Wiccan or Pagan; they are usually young townspeople who spike trees to keep their State from selling-off lands which belong to the people, not to lumber companies.

Nothing about trying to walk in perfect truth. Nothing about trying to be a light to world and spread the good news from the Creator. Only pathetic ethical compromise by saying, "You don't get on my nerves and I won't get on yours" and "Let's kill loggers and save our little spiritual brothers the spotted hooty owls."

Fred Rice comments: Of course the fundamentalist never bothered to give any specifics about these murdered loggers. Of course the fundamentalist never bothered to explain how he "knows" people murdering these invisible, unnamed, vague loggers of his were Wiccans and Pagans.

A lot of it sounds like garbage right out of the Humanist Manifesto. For Christians to have their fortunes told, to use spells and charms, or the like, is a sad affront to God.

Fred Rice comments: Now he wants to pretend that his hatred of Pagani and Wicca makes his deity constructs upset. In fact neither Pagani nor Wicca have anything to do with the Christian pantheon.

They must be grossly ignorant who ask, "What harm is there in these things?" Here is a levy of wisdom to young people to show respect to their elders, but this good common sense edict is evaporating from society at the speed of stupidity.

People like you are to blame, Fred. The serpent crawled in your ear, stole your brain, and not operates the strings tied to your fingers when you come in here begging for me to _deal_ with you.

Fred Rice comments: Pretty freakish, huh?

Any further questions, Fred?

Fredric Rice:

David Ragland:
Keep it. I have need of nothing so hollow and without substance.

Until next time . . .


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