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apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 3/20/96
apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 3/20/96

{NOTICE: The *Alcuin* in this log is NOT, repeat NOT, 
the Alcuin who is a regular op on this channel. Please 
take this into consideration as you proceed.}
[22:22] Milhous (hlm3mr@199.218.197.247) joined #apologetics.
[22:29] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) joined #apologetics.
[22:29] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) left #apologetics.
[22:30] Alcuin (whoneeds@dial21.vonl.com) joined #apologetics.
[22:30] <Alcuin> What is an apologetic?
[22:31] <Milhous> Whoa./
[22:31] <Milhous> Hey, Alcuin.
[22:31] <Alcuin> Wait...let me explain.
[22:32] <Alcuin> I am not the apologetic Alcuin.  I am 
a different one that a ProfG came to me and said that 
I wasn't the right alcuin...that there was another 
alcuin...that he was on apologetics...so...my original 
question?
[22:32] <Alcuin> What is an apologetic?
[22:33] <Milhous> Oh.
[22:34] <Milhous> An apologetic is one who defends the 
Christian faith via reason.
[22:34] <Alcuin> Ah.
[22:34] <Alcuin> Hmm.
[22:34] <Milhous> Now, let me ask a question...
[22:34] <Alcuin> But, Isn't Christianity based on faith 
without reason?
[22:34] <Milhous> What is an Alcuin?
[22:34] <Alcuin> Alcuin was Charlemange's teacher.
[22:34] <Alcuin> of York I think.
[22:35] <Milhous> Ah.
----------------------------------------------------------
[22:54] Recon (jwalsh@cs2-10.str.ptd.net) joined #apologetics.
[22:55] <Milhous> Hi, Recon.
[22:55] <Recon> hi Milhous.. whats up?
[22:55] <Alcuin> Hello Recon...are you an apologetic 
or a nonbeliever...or what?
[22:55] <Milhous> Alcuin: Fundamentalists there who believe 
the Bible is literally true, all parts.
[22:55] <Milhous> Alcuin Not all, but a few..
[22:55] <Recon> apologetic... 
[22:55] <Alcuin> Fundamentalism is wrong...
[22:56] <Alcuin> So...Recon...why is atheism not logical?
[22:57] <Recon> Why would an atheist suppose that logic 
should be the standard his beliefs are judged by?
[22:57] <Alcuin> Interesting...but explain further...
[22:57] <Recon> gotta run soon.. get up early tomorrow..
[22:57] <Recon> In an atheist's world-view
[22:58] <Recon> The universe is a random collection of 
events.. 
[22:58] <Recon> The concept of a universal logic...
[22:58] <Alcuin> But isn't Apologeticism trying to make 
Christianity logical?
[22:58] <Milhous> I don't. In my world view, things do 
not have to have a reason to exist or occur. Therefore, 
logic doesn't apply.
[22:59] <Recon> requires God. God is rational and the 
standard by which logic holds true...
[22:59] <Alcuin> Logic and science ends where God (not 
necessarily religion) begins.
[22:59] <Alcuin> God made logic.
[22:59] <Milhous> Man made logic.
[22:59] <Recon> Alcuin : no, Apologetics is showing that 
logic and reason exist because God exists
[22:59] <Alcuin> ...if he exists.
[22:59] <Recon> God made logic
[23:00] <Recon> Milhous : so logic is not universal?
[23:00] <Alcuin> However, God set up the standards by 
which logic was discovered/invented.
[23:00] <Milhous> Recon: No. How could it be? The entire 
universe is apparently not conscious.
[23:00] <Recon> Milhous: Is there 'absolute truth'?
[23:00] <Milhous> Recon: No.
[23:00] <Recon> Milhous : Are you absolutely sure?
[23:01] <Alcuin> You want to know something, guys????
[23:01] <Recon> Milhous : Im not being coy.. thats a 
serious question
[23:01] <Recon> what Alcuin?
[23:01] <Milhous> Recon: That's a dumb question.
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[23:01] <Alcuin> You will never know one way or another...while 
alive.
[23:01] <Recon> Milhous : why is it dumb?
[23:01] <Alcuin> To argue with the idea of knowledge 
is a mistake.
[23:01] <Milhous> Recon: Yes. Here's a paradox for you: 
the one thing that is the truth is that nothing is 
the truth.
[23:01] <Recon> Milhous: you tell me there is no absolute 
truth.. I am asking you how you can be sure...
[23:02] <Alcuin> To argue with a realization of a possibility 
to be wrong is better...
[23:02] <Recon> Milhous : so how do you KNOW there is 
no absolute truth..
[23:02] <Milhous> Recon: I can't. And I don't.
[23:02] <Alcuin> Paradox's don't exist...
[23:03] <Recon> Milhous : then why did you say there 
is no absolute truth.. do you expect me to believe 
something even you dont believe to be true?
[23:03] <Alcuin> A paradox is an area of logic that man 
has not yet been able to solidify...Fuzzy logic is 
now explaining that...
[23:04] <Recon> Milhous : so at best, you are stating 
your opinion that there is no absolute truth
[23:04] <Milhous> Recon: Yes.
[23:04] <Alcuin> OPINIONS ARE ALL THAT WE HAVE!
[23:04] <Alcuin> Facts do not exist.
[23:04] <Milhous> Right, Alcuin.
[23:04] <Milhous> Thanks.
[23:04] <Alcuin> Science could be entirely wrong.
[23:04] <Recon> Alcuin and Milhous : you are both contradicting 
yourselves.. is it a fact that opinion is all we have?
[23:04] <Milhous> It could be entirely right.
[23:05] <Alcuin> Yes it is.
[23:05] <Alcuin> That is all...opinion...
[23:05] <Recon> Cant you see the reductu ad absurbem 
there?
[23:05] <Milhous> Recon: And you, sir, are being facetious.
[23:05] <Alcuin> No.
[23:05] <Alcuin> There is none.
[23:05] <Recon> Alcuin : it is a fact!, then you contradict 
yourself.
[23:05] <Alcuin> No it isn't a fact.
[23:06] <Alcuin> It's my opinion...obviously...because 
you persist in attacking it.
[23:06] <Milhous> Recon: We are huge, godawful ugly masses 
of replicating molecules IMHO.
[23:06] <Recon> Im not the one asserting ideas and then 
saying I have no basis to assert them since its all 
just opinion anyway
[23:06] <Alcuin> Recon: You will die deep down knowing 
that you don't really know.
[23:07] <Milhous> Through some Darwinian joke, we got 
this idea of Truth. My cat doesn't worry about Truth.
[23:07] <Alcuin> Recon: No latin phrase made to fight 
logical battles will change that.
[23:07] <Recon> but If I 'Know' anything.. even that 
I dont 'know' .. then I will know something!
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[23:07] <Alcuin> Exactly.
[23:07] <Recon> Ok.. I say.. you guys Know deep inside 
that God exists and you and him are not on good terms
[23:07] <Alcuin> Again you are trying to claim "paradox", 
but there is no such thing...
[23:07] <Milhous> We are the Microsoft of organisms....our 
programs are bloated, huge, and have a lame-brained 
interface...
[23:08] <Recon> you are the ones claiming paradox! not 
me.. I am pointing out the inherent paradox in your 
thinking!
[23:08] <Alcuin> Recon: I believe truly and deeply in 
a God...but fact doesn't prove him...I am deeply disturbed 
about my fate and actions...but logic is not going 
to argue it away.
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[23:09] <Milhous> Recon: The existence of God is not 
a subject for logic.
[23:09] <Alcuin> Recon: You are arguing that we have 
paradox's...but...paradoxes don't exist.
[23:09] <Alcuin> Exactly, logic is no way to defend God.
[23:09] <Milhous> Recon: Falsifiaboloty, all that.
[23:09] Recon (jwalsh@cs2-10.str.ptd.net) left irc: 
gotta jack-out sometime...
[23:09] <Milhous> er falsifiability.
[23:09] <Milhous> Heh heh.
[23:10] <Milhous> Anyway...
[23:10] <Milhous> Basic tenet of logic is that a statement 
must conceivably, somehow, be proven false.
[23:10] <Milhous> You can't falsify the statement "There 
is a God."
[23:11] <Alcuin> You can't prove it either.
[23:11] <Alcuin> See?
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[23:11] <Milhous> Well, you can't prove ANYTHING....but 
you can disprove things...
[23:12] <Alcuin> Exactly!
[23:12] <Alcuin> I have been telling people that "proof" 
does not exist for anything.
[23:12] <Milhous> Anything that can be disproven somehow 
is in the realm of logic.
[23:12] <Alcuin> "proof" is a lie.
[23:13] <Milhous> Things like "God exists." or "Love is 
a many-splendoured thing." can not be broken down logically...
[23:13] <Milhous> GIGO
[23:14] <Alcuin> Remember...the people that argue an 
existence in God are out of whack...they follow the 
core scientific/Greek belief that everything in the 
universe can be explained...yet they also believe in 
a God...thus...God can be explained a

nd to hell with him trying to tell them that he cannot.
[23:16] <Alcuin> Wouldn't it be sad to die and find ourselves 
going to Hades to roam with the souls as Zeus rules 
over us?
[23:16] <Milhous> Right....personally, if God wants to 
make an appearance, I'm all ears. But arguing the existence 
of God from a purely physical, logical standpoint is 
kind of dumb.
[23:17] <Milhous> Heh...or we all get in this armor and 
fight in Armageddon...
[23:17] Action: Alcuin shudders.
[23:17] primetime (tdoane@muselab-gw.runet.edu) joined 
#apologetics.
[23:18] <Alcuin> Or to find out...that...only oblivian 
awais...that...that that's all...
[23:18] <Alcuin> ...or that the Jews were the only ones 
to get the chance to go to Heaven...
[23:19] <Alcuin> ...or that only a specific religion 
is forever blessed...
[23:19] <Alcuin> ...while the rest are damned...
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