
[ref001]


apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 3/21/96
apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 3/21/96

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[02:59] <Acolyte> hullo
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[02:59] <Acolyte> re arai
[02:59] <LibRul> why apologetics?
[02:59] <Arai> re all
[02:59] <LibRul> ..as in Christian apologetics?
[02:59] <Acolyte> it fits the channel purpose
[02:59] <Acolyte> yes
[02:59] <Acolyte> hence my nick
[03:00] <Acolyte> Acolyte
[03:00] <LibRul> ah well
[03:00] <Acolyte> anyhow, I don't think viability is 
a test of what a thing is, but rather wht it can do
[03:00] <LibRul> undernet is kinda slow
[03:00] <Acolyte> depends efnet splits
[03:00] <Acolyte> its a trade off
[03:01] <Acolyte> anyhow
[03:01] <Acolyte> about abortion
[03:01] <LibRul> yes.
[03:01] <Acolyte> anyhow, I don't think viability is 
a test of what a thing is, but rather wht it can do
[03:01] <LibRul> I think natural viability should be 
the litmus test of personhood
[03:01] <Acolyte> why?
[03:01] <Arai> I need to run for a bit.  back later
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[03:01] <LibRul> I dunno..let mother nature dictate the 
rules?
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[03:02] <Acolyte> lib is that what medicine is for?
[03:02] <Oblivion> What's the argument?
[03:02] <Acolyte> abortion
[03:02] <LibRul> noticed (some) Christians can be very 
testy when it comes to topics?
[03:02] <Acolyte> lin its just the channel format is 
all
[03:02] <Oblivion> we should avoid the whole problem 
and just sterilize the race
[03:02] <LibRul> Oblivion that would be a final solution 
;)
[03:03] <Acolyte> oblivion gee sounds like some german 
I once read about
[03:03] <Oblivion> C. S. Lewis was a fraud.
[03:03] <Acolyte> oblivion how was lewis a fraud?
[03:03] <LibRul> rapture is false doctrine
[03:03] <LibRul> soup is good food
[03:03] <Acolyte> lib sure the rapture is so?
[03:04] <Oblivion> His whole system was dogmatic.
[03:04] <Acolyte> lib is medicine for the purpose of 
letting "nature" take its cource or for life?
[03:04] <LibRul> Acolyte is so what? so true or so much 
bunk?
[03:04] <Acolyte> Oblivion that was the point, any system 
has dogma
[03:04] <Acolyte> brb
[03:04] <LibRul> Acolyte I suppose so..unless it's hernal 
medecine :)
[03:04] <LibRul> herbal
[03:04] <Oblivion> you can't argue from a dogma though.
[03:04] <Oblivion> That's *my* whole point.
[03:04] <Oblivion> It eliminates rational discussion.
[03:04] <LibRul> RU a nazi?
[03:05] <Oblivion> What...you mean me?
[03:05] <Acolyte> oblivion u missed th point
[03:05] <LibRul> yes/no?
[03:05] <Acolyte> no I am not a nazi
[03:05] <Acolyte> oblivion define dogma
[03:05] <LibRul> heh..just asking
[03:05] <Acolyte> librul not even close
[03:06] <Oblivion> dogma: presupposed assumption of fundamental 
principles which are not questioned within the theology.
[03:06] <Acolyte> false
[03:06] <Oblivion> No...
[03:06] <Acolyte> dogma does not merely apply to theology
[03:06] <Oblivion> Of course not!
[03:06] <Acolyte> any system has dogma, 
[03:06] <LibRul> there's secular dogma
[03:06] <Oblivion> I meant with regards to our present 
discussion.
[03:06] <Acolyte> science etc
[03:06] <Acolyte> fine
[03:06] <Acolyte> we have zxioms, big deal
[03:06] <Acolyte> axioms even
[03:06] <Acolyte> so does everyone
[03:07] <LibRul> so..lets plan the revolution :)
[03:07] <Acolyte> that does not preclude rational discussion
[03:07] <Acolyte> lib hardly
[03:07] <Acolyte> lib I am a theonomist, it would not 
go well
[03:07] <Acolyte> ;)
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[03:08] <Acolyte> oblivin axioms are not some kind of 
crime
[03:08] <Acolyte> r they?
[03:08] <Oblivion> When examining such things as Christianity 
though, I think it's asking too much to presume salvation, 
though.
[03:08] <Oblivion> er...eliminate one though.
[03:08] <Acolyte> who ever said that?
[03:08] <Acolyte> I don't presume soteriology
[03:08] <Oblivion> I don't know, don't think anyone did.
[03:09] <Acolyte> The Triune God is the foundational 
axiom in my system, everything else flows from there
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[03:09] <Oblivion> But in a system such as Aristotle's, 
the axioms are limited to what is known to us, what 
is immediate to our experience.
[03:09] <Acolyte> hullo dgc
[03:09] <Oblivion> Exactly.  And having that as an axiom 
skews the whole system from word go.
[03:09] <Acolyte> oblivion if one is disposed to a soley 
empiricst epistemology true
[03:09] <DGC> hi everyone
[03:09] <Acolyte> why?
[03:10] <Acolyte> what system does not have an axiom?
[03:10] <Oblivion> And an epistemology (or ontology) 
based on deontic principles is rubbish!
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[03:10] <Acolyte> hey achimoth
[03:10] <Achimoth> hi aco.. made 51 in #bible finally
[03:10] <Oblivion> It remains unknowable.
[03:10] <Oblivion> Drawing conculsions from unproven 
hypotheses.
[03:11] <Acolyte> brb
[03:11] <Oblivion> One can not proceed in knowledge from 
what is unknown.
[03:13] <Oblivion> guess I should get some sleep.
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[03:15] <DGC> what's the topic - or is everyone too sleepy 
(it's only 8:15pm where I am)
[03:15] <Acolyte> I am talking on the ohone so hold on 
a second
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[03:25] <Cassidy_> silent as a whorehouse in Salt Lake 
CCity in here.......................
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MrNiceGuy
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[03:44] <Acolyte> hey achimoth
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#apologetics.
[07:59] <Acolyte> whats the prob?
[08:00] <ProfG> no apologetics on #Bible 
[08:00] <Acolyte> blah
[08:00] <Acolyte> :>
[08:00] Elim (derudder@felix.kulak.ac.be) joined #apologetics.
[08:00] <Elim> 'allo 'allo :)
[08:00] <ProfG> Elim  :-)
[08:01] <ProfG> spell worship right
[08:01] <Elim> Actually, I was trying real hard to accept 
the bible as the word of god, just for this discussion.
[08:01] <Acolyte> hmmmmm
[08:02] <Acolyte> nope
[08:02] Action: ProfG is about to turn ApoloBot off 
- you can privately MESSAGE the bot for this stuff!
[08:02] Alcuin (kingtutor@remote4-line16.cis.yale.edu) 
joined #apologetics.
[08:02] <Elim> You know, calling your bot 'Apolo' might 
make ppl think this is a Greek channel :)
[08:02] <Acolyte> geez touchy
[08:03] <Acolyte> I can't even search, sheesh
[08:03] <ProfG> yes you can, in /msg or /query
[08:03] <Acolyte> THERE IT IS
[08:03] <Acolyte> YAHOOOOO
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[08:06] <ProfG> so how are you Ac?
[08:07] <Acolyte> hey alcuin can you give me a hand?
[08:07] <Acolyte> ok
[08:07] Action: Alcuin holds out a hand to Acolyte.
[08:07] <Acolyte> alcuin I am doing a problem with formulas
[08:07] <Acolyte> hold on a sec
[08:07] <ProfG> thanks guys, sorry to force the move 
like that
[08:08] <Alcuin> ProfG: Why should you be sorry to enforce 
a legitimate rule?
[08:08] <ProfG> not sorry to enforce the rule  :-)
[08:08] <ProfG> sorry to have to enforce it on friends 
 :-)
[08:09] <Alcuin> We only flagrantly violate the rules 
to test you. ;)
[08:09] <ProfG> heh
[08:09] <ProfG> so who is this weetbix person?
[08:10] <Alcuin> I suspect that one cause behind the 
frequent appearance of apologetic discussions in #bible 
is the fact that some folks can only open one window 
at once, and are reluctant to leave that channel.  
The superior bot might also be a f

actor.
[08:10] <Alcuin> ""weetbix2 ~dumb@mark.manawatu.gen.nz 
* Mr Ed""
[08:10] <ProfG> "superior bot" THIS
[08:10] <Alcuin> "superior bot" = logos9, no?
[08:11] <ProfG> actually, they have the same guts, except 
for more versions
[08:11] <Acolyte> profg personally you are about the 
only op I obey in #bible
[08:11] <ProfG> lol
[08:11] <Acolyte> profg others...we...I bend
[08:11] <Acolyte> and bend
[08:12] <Acolyte> and bend <CRACK>...oops it broke! ;)
[08:12] Cannibal (philcs@slip13.vianet.net.au) joined 
#apologetics.
[08:12] <Acolyte> alcuin anyhow
[08:12] <Acolyte> I got this problem
[08:12] Action: Alcuin passes a hand to Cannibal.
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#apologetics.
[08:12] <Alcuin> "here, you can have one, too,"
[08:12] <Elim> Hi Cannibal
[08:12] <Cannibal> hi Alcuin :)
[08:12] <Cannibal> hi Acolyte :)
[08:12] <Acolyte> it is with factoring perfect suqare 
trinomials
[08:13] <Acolyte> alcuin I can't seem to factor this 
one term
[08:13] <Alcuin> Lemme see.
[08:13] <ProfG> hi Cannibal
[08:13] <ProfG> welcome weetbix2
[08:13] <Cannibal> hi ProfG :)
[08:13] <weetbix2> hello
[08:13] <Acolyte> alcuin the trinomial is: 16x2+72xy+81y2
[08:13] <Alcuin> So, weetbix2, where were we?
[08:14] <Acolyte> alcuin its the middle term I need
[08:14] <weetbix2> who knows
[08:14] <Acolyte> 72xy<-------------this one
[08:15] <Acolyte> oh wait
[08:15] <Acolyte> I see it
[08:15] <Acolyte> never mind
[08:15] <Acolyte> DUH
[08:15] <Alcuin> [4x+9y]^2, no?
[08:15] Action: ProfG 's palms begin sweating as the 
numerical discussions swarm around his head...
[08:15] <Acolyte> yes
[08:16] <Acolyte> thats the one I got
[08:16] Action: ProfG grows dizzy
[08:16] <Acolyte> I saw it just a sec ago
[08:16] <weetbix2> hmmmm
[08:16] <ProfG> what were you discussing, weetbix?
[08:16] <weetbix2> well been good but must go
[08:16] <ProfG> no, wait
[08:16] <weetbix2> oh ok
[08:16] <ProfG> I'm interested
[08:16] <Elim> ProfG: Hmm, is this what you get when 
you don't accept the Bible as the word of God? I see 
your point now, trying to keep this out of #bible :-)
[08:16] <Acolyte> profg thats anb understatment
[08:17] <ProfG> Elim: blame Acolyte with his dumb ol' 
math
[08:17] <Elim> :)
[08:17] <Acolyte> brb
[08:18] <weetbix2> the fact is that i can see the reason 
why most religons  cant be seen as the same 
[08:18] <weetbix2> when you take them down to the fundamentals 
they say believe in me and love thy neighbour
[08:18] <ProfG> I was most interested in that last comment 
you made in #Bible
[08:18] <Acolyte> profg hey it took me a long time to 
get over my prob with math, don;t you start it up again
[08:19] <weetbix2> prof why? and what about it
[08:20] <weetbix2> hello
[08:20] <Alcuin> hello
[08:20] <Acolyte> jello
[08:20] <Acolyte> smello
[08:20] <Acolyte> hullo
[08:21] <ProfG> hello
[08:21] <Alcuin> For an answer to your inquiry, press 
[1].  For a rhyme on "*ello", press [2]
[08:21] <Acolyte> ahahaahah
[08:21] <weetbix2> prof why? and what about it
[08:21] Action: ProfG has closed that #Bible window, 
and can't quote weetbix now unfortunately
[08:21] <Acolyte> alcuin how old r u?
[08:21] <Acolyte> profg u on mirc?
[08:22] Action: Alcuin puts no stock in ages, which 
are a construct of man
[08:22] <Acolyte> alcuin ok so tell me anyhow
[08:22] <Acolyte> alcuin humor me
[08:22] <Acolyte> Iforgot
[08:22] <Cannibal> Time is an interesting thing.
[08:22] <weetbix2> alcuin every thing we have  is a construct 
of man
[08:22] <ProfG> Acolyte yes
[08:22] <weetbix2> most of what we see is to
[08:23] Action: ProfG is not a constructivist
[08:23] <ProfG> though I *love* deconstructionists - 
they do my job for me on modernity  :-)
[08:23] <Alcuin> weetbix2: There exist some things which 
are not constructs of man.
[08:23] <weetbix2> but most of life is
[08:23] <weetbix2> :)
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[08:24] <Alcuin> The real question is whether we try 
in futility to construct a representation of reality 
for ourselves apart from God, or whether we accept 
and work within God's construction of reality.
[08:25] <Acolyte> profg yup
[08:25] <Alcuin> As Derrida insists, there's no reaching 
a transcendental signified, if one starts with the 
autonomous mind.
[08:26] <weetbix2> hmm
[08:26] Action: ProfG has to read Derrida, et. al, 
for - can you believe it? - International Relations... 
it's an infestation, I tell you!
[08:26] <Alcuin> Which text[s]?
[08:27] <ProfG> heh, can't remember now (thank God)
[08:27] Nick change: Cannibal -> JohnKnox
[08:27] <weetbix2> if god revealed him self to moses 
etc could he not have revealed himself to others 
[08:27] <weetbix2> ?
[08:28] <Alcuin> weebix2: Could he have? Yes.  Did he? 
Yes.
[08:28] <Alcuin> It's recounted in the OT as well as 
the new ;)
[08:28] <weetbix2> could those ppl not have interpreted 
it differently
[08:28] <Acolyte> profg try Wittgenstein
[08:28] <Alcuin> weebix2: Could they have? Sure.  Did 
they?  No.
[08:28] <weetbix2> ie formed different religions
[08:29] <ProfG> Acolyte: yup, him too
[08:29] <Alcuin> Jesus and Moses are in accord; ditto 
the other canonical sources.
[08:29] <weetbix2> alcuin come on who are you kidding 
how many religions are based on the bible
[08:29] <Acolyte> profg just thought of soemthn
[08:29] <weetbix2> at least 30 odd
[08:30] <Acolyte> profg, that is a RAD VERSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[08:30] <Acolyte> profg look at it and think Modalism
[08:30] <ProfG> Acolyte  :-)
[08:30] <weetbix2> SO IS that suposed to mean sommit
[08:30] <Acolyte> profg it KILLS modalism
[08:30] <ProfG> Acolyte: well, of course  ;->
[08:30] <Alcuin> weebix2: I'm not claiming that there 
are not other interpretations of the Bible.  I'm saying 
that the interpretations within the bible are authoritative, 
and those outside of it are not necessarily authoritative.
[08:30] <Acolyte> profg, have you read Boyd's book on 
Oneness Pentacostals?
[08:31] <ProfG> no
[08:31] <Acolyte> u should
[08:31] <Acolyte> that and bowman's bk on JW's
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[08:31] Action: ProfG has to read too much IR caca
[08:31] <Acolyte> have you read Bowman on the Trinity?
[08:31] <Acolyte> IR?
[08:31] <Alcuin> Acolyte: u know Carson's little book 
on "gifts" ?
[08:31] <weetbix2> but the bible was written after god 
revealed himself to moses right
[08:31] <Acolyte> caca? yuk
[08:31] <ProfG> Int'l Relations
[08:32] <Acolyte> each has their calling
[08:32] <Alcuin> weetbix2: right.
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[08:32] <Acolyte> profg I just wonder what would have 
happned if you were in calif when you were in ECUSA 
and had met me when you were an atheist. ;)
[08:32] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: 
You've got questions?  We've got answers.
[08:32] <weetbix2> so could have god revealed himself 
to some one else and thats how the koran was written
[08:32] <ProfG> Acolyte: I would have killed you.  :-)
[08:32] <weetbix2> as an example
[08:32] <ProfG> in a drunken rage.
[08:33] <Alcuin> weetbix@: The koran contradicts the 
bible, but there is no contradiction within the bible. 
 Therefore, the koran could not be of God.
[08:33] <Acolyte> profg you mean I would have killed 
you, with the gospel and some Josh McDowell bks. ;)
[08:33] <Alcuin> Acolyte: Not to mention some Chuck Smith 
tapes.
[08:33] <ProfG> Acolyte: heh, got a question for you
[08:33] <Acolyte> what?
[08:34] <Alcuin> "Like the [several] suppressed ones where 
CS predicts the date of Christ's return"
[08:34] <weetbix2> alcuin there must be contritictions 
in the bible hence the different religions beliving 
in different things bbased on the bible
[08:34] <ProfG> if you have 4 Episcopals in a motel room, 
what do you always have?
[08:34] Topic changed by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: 
Do you have Answers? then We've Got Questions!
[08:34] <ProfG> A fifth
[08:34] <Acolyte> profg a 5th
[08:34] <ProfG> LOL
[08:34] <Acolyte> profg woks with any denomination
[08:34] <ProfG> nyaa nyaa nyaa nyaa nyaaaaaa
[08:34] <Alcuin> weetbix2: It is possible for differing 
contradictions to derive from a noncontradictory source. 
 For example, a good movie need not be contradictory 
for people's interpretations to differ concerning it.
[08:34] <ProfG> Acolyte: I think it works best with Episcopals
[08:35] <weetbix2> good point
[08:35] <Alcuin> lol to one and all
[08:35] <Acolyte> profg know what you have when you have 
4 charismatics in one hotel room?
[08:35] Action: ProfG shuts up so that Alcuin can apologeticalize 
weetbix2
[08:35] <ProfG> heh
[08:35] <Acolyte> profg CONFUSION
[08:35] <Alcuin> Never mind apologetics....let's tell 
jokes.
[08:35] <ProfG> heh
[08:35] <Acolyte> alcuin is human!!! 
[08:35] <Acolyte> hehehehe
[08:35] Action: Alcuin is all too human
[08:35] <Acolyte> there's flesh among all that brain 
matter
[08:36] <weetbix2> but my main problem is that i cant 
understand the idea that religion has to be so constructed
[08:36] <weetbix2> and ridged
[08:36] Action: ProfG has to get back to work now
[08:36] <Acolyte> profg work shmurk
[08:36] Action: ProfG notes the ridges on Alcuin
[08:36] <Alcuin> weetbix2: That's a legitimate concern. 
 No one wants rigidity if the rigidity is of man instead 
of God.
[08:36] Action: Alcuin may be from Rhodesia.
[08:37] <weetbix2> my point that the rigidity is of man
[08:37] <ProfG> Acolyte: got promoted to Administrative 
Dean of MCU - ought to at least *pretend* to work...
[08:37] <ProfG> :-)
[08:37] <Alcuin> weebix2: On the other hand, who wants 
to avoid clear answers, if the alternative is a complete 
lack of cogency, perspective, and efficacy?
[08:37] <Acolyte> profg so when is this radio thingie 
gonna occur?
[08:37] <ProfG> Rhodesia, lol
[08:37] <weetbix2> take the common ground of most religions 
what is it ..................... dont do bad things
[08:37] <Alcuin> Congrats on the promo.
[08:38] <ProfG> Acolyte: we have had some probs with 
the ISDN line... should be fixed to day, hopefully 
have the station up in the next 2 weeks
[08:38] <ProfG> Alcuin: thanks. The former one is retiring 
tomorrow
[08:38] <Acolyte> profg so am I in thr running?
[08:38] <Alcuin> weebix2: What is needed is a justifiable 
method for determining whether and how much a given 
specimen of "rigidity" is from God.
[08:38] <ProfG> Acolyte for what?
[08:39] <Acolyte> profg for the answering quesiotn thingie 
with Dr. North
[08:39] <Acolyte> ?
[08:39] <weetbix2> and there isnt one
[08:39] <ProfG> Acolyte: of course  :-)
[08:39] Action: ProfG really has to go now
[08:39] <ProfG> God bless
[08:39] ProfG (greenew@SL2.elink.net) left #apologetics.
[08:39] <Alcuin> weebix2: For example, it may be correct 
to observe that, superficially, most religions condemn 
"bad behavior".  On the other hand, what the religions 
define as bad behavior varies considerable.
[08:39] <Alcuin> considerably
[08:40] <weetbix2> so then the idea that most religions 
are equal ie most religions higher being the same
[08:40] <Alcuin> weebix2: Why do you believe that there 
is no method for objectively determining whether and 
how God communicates?
[08:40] <weetbix2> not really that different
[08:41] <Alcuin> weebix2: There is an enormous difference 
between, say, Buddhism and Hinduism.  Likewise Christianity 
and Islam.  Ditto Shintoism and Wicca.
[08:41] <weetbix2> not really
[08:41] <Alcuin> weebix2: Have you studied these matters 
in any depth?
[08:41] <weetbix2> alittle
[08:42] <weetbix2> they mostly say that killing is bad 
so is theft etc
[08:42] Action: Alcuin notes that one's perception 
of similarity among X, Y, and Z is not necessarily 
identical to actual similarity among X, Y, and Z.
[08:42] <weetbix2> but what is the exact simarlity and 
who judges that
[08:42] <weetbix2> who is to say
[08:43] <JohnKnox> perception and "reality" are hard to 
distinguish.
[08:43] <Alcuin> weetbix2: You are basically similar 
to Fidel Castro.  You have the same type of circulatory 
system.  You have a similar neurological infrastructure. 
 You are a mammal.
[08:43] <Alcuin> Do you not grant that there are still 
enormous important differences between you and Castro?
[08:44] Action: Alcuin wonders whether weetbix2 *is* 
Castro. That'd blow Alcuin's argument....
[08:44] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: You are correct.  Good point.
[08:44] <weetbix2> yes ther are but there big similarity 
on a simplistic level
[08:45] <Acolyte> alcuinnot in 7 yrs it might not
[08:45] <Alcuin> weetbix2: And the "similarities" among 
religions are also fairly superficial.  It's simplistic 
to depend on them for an argument.
[08:45] <Alcuin> Acolyte: eh?
[08:45] <Acolyte> alcuin re castro
[08:45] <JohnKnox> All the things that you "know" are held 
in a brain that mediates between you and "reality"
[08:45] <weetbix2> the diference between me and castro 
are are superficail
[08:45] <Acolyte> john is yourbrain non-reality?
[08:46] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: The brain mediates knowing. 
 ok.
[08:46] <Acolyte> weet so you are basically the same 
person as he is?
[08:46] <weetbix2> on a fumdermental level we are both 
liveing breathing humans
[08:46] <Alcuin> weetbix2: Are the differences between 
you and, say, someone on death row superficial?
[08:46] <weetbix2> yes
[08:46] <Alcuin> weetbix2: Then why don't you go stand 
in for someone on death row, and let that person go 
free.
[08:46] <Alcuin> ?
[08:47] <Alcuin> Are the differences between you and 
a homeless person superficial?
[08:47] <weetbix2> they chose a different path than me 
so they suffer the reprocussions
[08:47] <JohnKnox> It is difficult to "know" if there is 
a "reality" ... one can postulate one (with good reason 
and abundant evidence) but it is very difficult to 
KNOW that t

here is one.
[08:47] <weetbix2> yes
[08:48] <Alcuin> Weetbix2: Sure, but according to you, 
we're all basically interchangeable anyhow.  Why don't 
you give your home to a homeless person and go live 
in the streets?  
[08:48] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Your comments about the difficulty 
of knowing whether there's a reality do not follow 
from your premise that the brain mediates knowledge.
[08:48] <Acolyte> JK how do you define knowledge?
[08:48] <weetbix2> the thing that is in common is we 
all breathe eat sleep exist we are humans fundamentally
[08:48] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) left 
#apologetics.
[08:49] <Alcuin> weetbix2: IF that similarity is superficial, 
then it's our particularity that is most important 
about us.  If that similarity is more important than 
our particularity, then we are interchangeable.  You 
can't have it both ways.


[08:49] <weetbix2> if we where all lobotimized we would 
be the same 
[08:50] <Alcuin> Likewise, though some religions share 
some characteristics, religions differ in *significant* 
ways.
[08:50] <Alcuin> If religions were all stripped of their 
particularity, they'd be the same, too.  That's the 
point.
[08:50] <weetbix2> ppl put alot of emphisis on personality 
etc when the basis thing why we have these thing is 
because we are human
[08:51] <Alcuin> It is fallacious to reason on the basis 
of similarities, without taking differences into account 
as well.  You don't want to interpret fallaciously, 
do you?
[08:51] <JohnKnox> knowledge if defined as the perceptions 
of human minds is not a problem ... if however a knowledge 
that is not mediated is in existence then it does seem 
that the mediation of the mind does present problems, 
unless that mediatio

n is such that the minsd's perceptions and reality 
coincide at some points.
[08:51] <Alcuin> weebix2: Yes, we are all human.  Your 
reluctance to sit on death row or go homeless, however, 
shows that you do in fact distinguish sharply among 
the so-called similar humans in your experience.
[08:52] <weetbix2> ok the way i see it is this
[08:52] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Yes, reality and the mind's 
understanding of reality must coincide at some critical 
points, or else we are in trouble, knowledge-wise.
[08:53] <weetbix2> 1> we on the most simplistic level 
are carbon life forms 
[08:53] <JohnKnox> How can we know if the do coincide 
at any points?
[08:53] <weetbix2> this is related to the similaritys 
in religions
[08:54] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: We can know about such coincidence 
by inquiring into what is necessarily true if knowledge 
is to be possible.
[08:54] <weetbix2> what we do with our lives is different 
from person to person
[08:54] <weetbix2> this is a major difference 
[08:54] <JohnKnox> that will not tell you if knowledge 
acti\ually exists.
[08:55] <weetbix2> but does it put less worth on our 
lives
[08:55] <weetbix2> ???
[08:55] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Sure it will.
[08:55] <JohnKnox> how?
[08:55] <Alcuin> weetbix2: Does murdering a family of 
six put less value on the life of the murderer than 
feeding a family of six puts on the grocer?
[08:56] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Here's a little exercise: 
Try asking yourself this question:
[08:56] <Alcuin> "Do I know whether or not I know?"
[08:56] <weetbix2> yes
[08:56] <weetbix2> no i mean
[08:57] Action: Alcuin watches weetbix2
[08:57] <weetbix2> the murderer had no choice in the 
matter
[08:57] <JohnKnox> you have formed an opinion on that, 
but it is not easy to say if you do.
[08:57] <Alcuin> What?
[08:58] <weetbix2> every decision we make is based on 
things that have already happened
[08:58] <weetbix2> experiences Knowlege we have gained
[08:58] <weetbix2> etc
[08:58] Nwambe (einstein@206.116.243.240) joined #apologetics.
[08:58] Nwambe (einstein@206.116.243.240) left #apologetics.
[08:59] <weetbix2> so by that logic fundamentally he 
is worth as much as the grocer
[08:59] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Follow this for a sec.  If 
you tell yourself that you do *not* have certain knowledge, 
then the question arises how you "know" that you do not 
have certain knowledge.  If you tell your

self that you are not sure whether you have certain 
knowledge or not, then the question arises how you 
know whether your state of knowledge is uncertain or 
not.  If you tell yourself that you *do* have certain 
knowledge, then there's no problem.  W

[08:59] <weetbix2> he has a much right to life as you 
do
[09:00] <Alcuin> weetbix2: Then you acknowledge that 
you are of equal value to, say a homeless person?  
No more, and no less?
[09:00] <weetbix2> yes
[09:00] <Alcuin> Then there is no particular reason that 
you should have your home, rather than any given homeless 
person?
[09:00] <weetbix2> no
[09:01] <weetbix2> i have a home because that is the 
way my life has lead me
[09:01] <Alcuin> Then why, *in practice*, do you act 
as if you are of greater value than homeless person 
P?  Why do you not share your home?
[09:01] <weetbix2> i do
[09:01] <weetbix2> i live with 7 ppl
[09:01] <weetbix2> 4 of which pay to live here
[09:01] <Alcuin> Were any of them homeless until they 
moved in with you?
[09:02] <weetbix2> because we can afford to
[09:02] <weetbix2> yes
[09:02] <Alcuin> Why do you not take the place of someone 
who's starving?  
[09:02] <weetbix2> because my life has not lead me there
[09:03] <Alcuin> So in other words, one can explain differential 
treatment merely by appealing to the course of history?
[09:03] <weetbix2> yes
[09:03] <weetbix2> and no
[09:03] <Alcuin> Then by that logic, one can explain 
not lumping all religions together either, since they 
have had startlingly different histories, as have their 
adherents.
[09:03] <Alcuin> QED
[09:03] Action: Alcuin watches weetbix2 having it both 
ways again.
[09:04] <weetbix2> diferential treatment is mainly due 
to social conditioning
[09:04] <Alcuin> So?  Differences among religions are 
largely due to social factors as well.
[09:04] Action: JohnKnox wakens from his other channels 
conversation
[09:04] <weetbix2> social factors yes
[09:04] <weetbix2> not fundamental factors
[09:05] <Alcuin> Why do you arbitrarily differentiate 
between "social factors" and "fundamental factors" ?
[09:05] <weetbix2> so by that most religions could be 
seen as equal
[09:05] <Alcuin> After all, you said ""every decision we 
make is based on things that have already happened""
[09:05] <weetbix2> yes so?
[09:05] <Alcuin> "every decision" sounds pretty fundamental...
[09:06] <weetbix2> yes?
[09:06] <weetbix2> the way others interpret them is not
[09:06] <Alcuin> weetbix2: since different relgions come 
from diverse cultural milieux, it follows that different 
religions are *not* to be seen as fundamentally the 
same.
[09:07] <weetbix2> but the cultures are the same things 
just a different approach
[09:08] <Alcuin> For example, Molech worship in ancient 
Palestine involved sacrificing infants in a flame. 
 Aztec devotion involved tearing the heart out of the 
virgin proxy of the deity.  Shintoism, however, involves 
revering animist spirits.  An

d Buddhism involves denying the ukiyo-e
[09:08] <JohnKnox> JohnKnox: Follow this for a sec.  
If you tell yourself that you do *not* have certain 

[09:08] <JohnKnox>    knowledge, then the question arises 
how you "know" that you do not have certain knowledge. 

[09:08] <JohnKnox>     If you tell yourself that you 
are not sure whether you have certain knowledge or 
not, then the 
[09:08] <JohnKnox>    question arises how you know whether 
your state of knowledge is uncertain or not.  If you 
tell 
[09:08] <JohnKnox>    yourself that you *do* have certain 
knowledge, then there's no problem.  [how do you know 
that you DO in fact have certain knowledge]?
[09:08] <JohnKnox> oop[s
[09:09] <weetbix2> religion is a candle in a lantern
[09:09] <Alcuin> weetbix2: You say: ""but the cultures 
are the same things just a different approach"".  If 
cultures are basically the same, aren't sociologists, 
anthropologis

ts, and historians wasting their [and our] time?
[09:09] <JohnKnox> [how   do you know that you DO in 
fact have certain knowledge]?
[09:10] <Alcuin> The fact is that cultures differ dramatically 
over space and time.  Likewise, religions.  From which 
it follows that one can discriminate among religions 
[as among anything] on the basis of the particular 
traits of those religions

.
[09:10] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Because when you attempt to 
deny the proposition that you have knowledge, you end 
up in paradox.
[09:11] <JohnKnox> Alucin, perhaps you only end in an 
antimony.
[09:11] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: So the choices are: [1] certain 
knowledge is possible, or [2] everthing is an irrational, 
paradoxical flux.
[09:11] <JohnKnox> it may be the process of reasoning 
that is faulty.
[09:11] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: On the basis of antinomy, 
any proposition whatsoever can be proved.
[09:11] <weetbix2> each side of the lantern has a different 
colored piece of glass in front of it  i am on one 
side and you are on another  i see the candle a blue 
and you see it as red to us it is that color to someone 
else it is a different colo

r .......................but is it or is it not the 
same candle
[09:11] <JohnKnox> the Trinity is so based, as is the 
Doctrine of Predestination.
[09:12] <Alcuin> weetbix2: That's a charming illustration, 
but it doesn't prove relativism.  After all, the flame 
that weetbix2 sees as blue might *actually* be blue.
[09:12] <JohnKnox> Does one IN FACT escape the "paradox" 
by positing CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE?
[09:12] <weetbix2> it is
[09:12] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Neither the Trinity nor Predestination 
is based on antinomy, though both involve the possible 
appearance of paradox.
[09:12] <weetbix2> and the flame you see is actually 
red
[09:12] <Alcuin> Yes, one does.
[09:13] <JohnKnox> antinomy is an apparant paradox.
[09:13] <Alcuin> Both of the doctrines you cite can be 
formulated in terms that are logically valid.
[09:13] <JohnKnox> Do so Alcuin.
[09:13] <JohnKnox> Make them both Logical.
[09:13] eon (gi30283@ip111.z03.glo.be) joined #apologetics.
[09:13] <JohnKnox> make them both independent of the 
"revealed data"
[09:14] <weetbix2> so in that way all of them are equally 
valid
[09:14] <Alcuin> antinomy is a real paradox, unless there's 
some basis for believing that it's only apparent.  
When we disallow the possibility of certain knowledge, 
we also rule out the possibility of establishing an 
antinomy as only *apparently*

 paradoxical.
[09:14] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Here's a logically valid formulation 
of the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination: 
[09:15] <Alcuin> For some Person P and some action X:
[09:15] <Alcuin> ==[1] God foreordains that P freely 
choose to X
[09:15] <JohnKnox> Antimony="contradiction of two inferences 
both of which rest on equally valid premises"
[09:15] <eon> Jezus man....what the f*ck are you guys 
talking about !!???
[09:15] <Alcuin> ==[2] P freely chooses to X
[09:15] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: There, that wasn't so hard. 
:)
[09:16] <weetbix2> so then if the"one true religion" seen 
to be the candle then all strains are equally valid
[09:16] <JohnKnox> it is the inferences that are seen 
to be contradictory ... the logic that produces them 
may be faulty.
[09:16] eon (gi30283@ip111.z03.glo.be) left #apologetics.
[09:16] <Alcuin> Now if knowledge is fundamentally antinomous, 
then anything whatsoever can be proved.  Obviously, 
that's experiental nonsense.
[09:16] <weetbix2> hello
[09:16] <weetbix2> ?
[09:17] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: The formulation that I provided 
is logically valid.  The logic is not faulty.  Some 
person P may not *believe* that God can foreordain 
free choices, but that is not a logical problem; it's 
a metaphysical issue.
[09:17] <weetbix2> free choice doesnt exist
[09:18] <Alcuin> weetbix2: You say: "" if the"one true religion" 
seen to be the candle then all strains are equally 
valid""  However, this 

is a fallacious inference.  There are different shades 
of blue.
[09:18] <JohnKnox> Alcuin that is a case of smoke and 
mirrors :)
[09:18] <weetbix2> why are you afraid to look at things 
simplisticly
[09:19] <weetbix2> everything is simple ,nature is simple 
etc
[09:19] <Alcuin> weetbix2: You say: "" they chose a different 
path than me so they suffer the reprocussions""   Uh, 
what about your denial of free choice?
[09:19] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Really?  Why?
[09:20] <JohnKnox> it is a question of definitions.
[09:20] <weetbix2> man tries to over completcate things 
to make himself feel secure
[09:20] <JohnKnox> <Alcuin> For some Person P and some 
action X:<Alcuin> ==[1] God foreordains that P freely 
choose to X
[09:20] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: More importantly, why isn't 
the claim that knowledge is impossible "Smoke and Mirrors" 
when it's quite obvious that people *act* as if knowledge 
is indeed possible?
[09:20] <JohnKnox> both terms have not been defined.
[09:20] <weetbix2> read back i said because of the path 
im led on
[09:20] <JohnKnox> what is "freely choose"
[09:20] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Which terms shall I define?
[09:20] <JohnKnox> what is foreordain?
[09:21] <Alcuin> weetbix2: So, since there's no free 
choice, no one is responsible for her actions, right? 
;)
[09:21] <weetbix2> yes
[09:21] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Foreordination is a species 
of causation.
[09:21] Nick change: weetbix2 -> weet
[09:21] <Alcuin> There is causation(a) with compulsion
[09:21] <Alcuin> There is causation(b) without compulsion
[09:22] <Alcuin> The foreordination of weather is of 
type a, while the foreordination of free choices is 
of type b.
[09:22] <weet> no one can be held responcible for there 
actions
[09:22] <Alcuin> weet: Then I can win our little debate 
just by having you slain, right?
[09:22] <JohnKnox> compulsion?
[09:22] <JohnKnox> internal?
[09:22] <JohnKnox> external?
[09:23] katmar (katmar@zel12.fyi.net) joined #apologetics.
[09:23] <JohnKnox> one can go on for a very long time 
qualifying the definitions.
[09:23] Action: Alcuin hands JohnKnox a dictionary
[09:23] good2go (SLIMGIN@www-29-211.gnn.com) joined 
#apologetics.
[09:23] katmar (katmar@zel12.fyi.net) left #apologetics.
[09:23] <JohnKnox> what is "free" in your example?
[09:23] <weet> no because of the path that your life 
is on it is against your morals
[09:23] <Alcuin> weet: On the basis you suggest, wherein 
you admit that morality is impossible, there's no particular 
reason to adhere to one's morals or to any morals.
[09:24] Poimen (tashley@erc.cat.syr.EDU) joined #apologetics.
[09:24] <weet> you believe in the bible the information 
in the bible says killing me is wrong so you wouldnt 
do it you have no choice in the matter
[09:24] <Alcuin> weet: After all, if I were to choose 
to have you slain in order to win the argument, then 
*that* would be the path I'm on.  On the basis you 
provide, there's no difference.  Anyone can do anything, 
and appeal to the fact that "it's their path" for exoneration!!
[09:25] <Poimen> Good morning.  Is anyone here? :>
[09:25] <weet> yes they could because it is on there 
path
[09:25] <Alcuin> weet: So let me get this straight.  
You're claiming that all religions are basically the 
same, and that we can't know "truth"--but you're appealing 
to my worldview to explain why I can't operate

 in terms of your premises??
[09:25] <Alcuin> Hi, Poimen
[09:26] <good2go> religion is in your heart.  
[09:26] <good2go> either you  have it or you dont
[09:26] <Poimen> Good morning Alcuin. :>
[09:26] <weet> im not saying we CANT know truth im saying 
all know god but interpret it differently
[09:27] <Alcuin> weet: If anything goes, interpretation-wise, 
then it follows that we can't know truth...
[09:27] <weet> why???
[09:28] <weet> this converstaion is enough to see that 
ppl see thing differently
[09:28] <Alcuin> weet: Cuz for any proposition P, if 
you interpret it as True, I can interpret it as false. 
 Hence, contradiction.  On the basis of contradiction, 
anything whatsoever can be proved.  Ergo, truth is 
impossible on your basis.
[09:28] <good2go> thats what its all about if we didnt 
see things differently then how can we learn
[09:29] <Alcuin> weet: You and I see things differently. 
 However, there's only 1 truth.
[09:29] <Alcuin> excuse me for a second....
[09:29] <JohnKnox> TRUTH is not certain ... unless you 
care to posit it to be ... there can be no proving 
it.
[09:30] <Poimen> There are tangible standards.  For instance, 
if I assert white is white, and you assert the same 
color is black, only one of us correct.  It is not 
a matter of how we each percieve the electromagnetic 
spectrum in visible light.  W

hite is white, no matter who sees it.
[09:30] <JohnKnox> both could be wrong
[09:30] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: that position is easily refuted: 
Is it True that "there can be no proving" truth?
[09:30] <good2go> not true
[09:30] <weet> i disagree there are many truths go to 
the candle  the truth to me is that it is blue whereas 
to you it is red who is wrong to us it is  the color 
we see it
[09:31] <JohnKnox> Alcuin, can you prove that any part 
of your knowledge is TRUE?
[09:32] <Alcuin> weet: You say: ""yes they could because 
it is on there path""  But one's path is whatsoever one 
does.  So one can do *anything* and say "Gee

, that must've been my path!!"
[09:32] <Poimen> weet: That's bunk.  From an observational 
standpoint, providing both of our visual accuity senses 
are functioning normally, but is red/green/blue to 
you WILL be red/green/blue to me.
[09:33] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: If there's a tile and A says 
it's white, and B says it's black, then yes, both could 
be wrong.  However, if of the same tile, A says it's 
white, and B says it's not the case that it's white, 
then one of them *must* be co

rrect.
[09:33] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: You ask "Alcuin, can you prove 
that any part of your knowledge is TRUE?"  Yes.
[09:33] <weet> but the reason  they do that is because 
of things they have already experienced
[09:34] <Poimen> Isn't that a bit like creating a self-fulfilling 
prophecy?  I did it, ergo it must have been my destiny, 
ergo I knew I would do it?  That's a logical mobius 
loop, and quite dangerous.
[09:34] <JohnKnox> alcuin nominate the part that you 
can prove to be true
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[09:35] <Alcuin> weet: Nice try, but be realistic.  For 
any person P in situation X where P has the opportunity 
to kill Victim V, whether or not P does in fact kill 
V is *not* determined with reference to P's "path"
[09:36] <Alcuin> weet: The reason is that the "path" does 
not reveal what P will do.  Every killer had to kill 
for the first time, before which, that killer's "path" 
did not i

ndicate a proclivity to kill.
[09:36] <Alcuin> Nice comments, Poimen.
[09:36] <Alcuin> Howz upstate?
[09:37] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: ""alcuin nominate the part that 
you can prove to be true""   How about this proposition 
that I take to be true: [a proposition cannot be both 
true a

nd false in the same sense at the same time]
[09:37] <JohnKnox> Alcuin, is that absolute?
[09:37] <Poimen> Alcuin: Pretty dismal today, but at 
least we don't have much to shovel! :>
[09:37] <weet> ok i have an oportitunity to kill you 
ok..... im standing behind you with a pistol.. do i 
do it ......no ......why you ask .....based on things 
that have happened to me ie my sister being killed 
i know the pain this can cause to rel

atives so really i like to think i have a choice to 
kill you but i dont because i wont let myself
[09:38] <JohnKnox> Alcuin, is the law of non-contradiction 
ultimate?
[09:39] <weet> this is due to a prevoius experience
[09:39] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: That's the law of noncontradiction. 
 I believe that God is absolute, and that the law stated 
reflects God's method of thinking.
[09:39] <JohnKnox> "VI believe that God is absolute, and 
that    the law stated reflects God's method of thinking."
[09:39] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Ultimate?  Can you specify 
what you mean by that?  I affirm that a denial of the 
truth of the law of noncontradiction involves affirmation 
of that same law.
[09:40] <Alcuin> God is ultimate, as far as I can tell.
[09:40] <Alcuin> weet: What previous experience dictates 
that P will kill V?
[09:40] <JohnKnox> Alcuin: what is the basis of "I believe 
that God is absolute, and that 
[09:40] <weet> so god is only ulitmate in your frame 
of referance
[09:41] LOSeed (LOSeed@www-31-10.gnn.com) joined #apologetics.
[09:41] <weet> maybe not one but many
[09:41] Nick change: LOSeed -> QTpie
[09:41] <QTpie> hello*
[09:41] <QTpie> what r the questions?
[09:41] <weet> everyones path is different so a question 
like that is imposible to answer
[09:41] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Statements about God are a 
subset of my worldview.  My worldview affirms the possibility 
of logic on the basis of God, because apart from God, 
such assertions are nonsense.
[09:42] QTpie (LOSeed@www-31-10.gnn.com) left #apologetics.
[09:42] <Alcuin> weet: So then, you admit that the person 
P is more or less the sum of P's experiences, and P's 
experiences are more or less unique?
[09:42] <weet> logic strange logic assumes black and 
white answers where there is really no such thing
[09:42] <Alcuin> So much for the fundamental similarity 
of all people!
[09:43] <Alcuin> weet: Is it absolutely black and white 
for sure that "there is really no such thing" ? :)
[09:43] <JohnKnox> Alcuin: You then consider the stated 
"belief" to be an axiom of your world view. Is it any 
better than any other world view? Could you prove it 
to be ... would you ultimately have to rely on t

he presuppositions to make your case?
[09:43] <weet> experiences=differences     genitics=fundamental 
similarities
[09:44] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: The fact of depending on a 
presupposition to make a case is not a problem  Any 
worldview whatsoever will depend on it's presuppositions. 
 This epistemic circularity is not the same as circularity 
within formal logic.  I 

believe that some presuppositions can be demonstrated 
to be necessary.
[09:45] <Alcuin> weet: So is Person P's killing of V 
determines by experiences, or genetics?  Both?  In 
what proportion?
[09:45] <weet> so you make presuppositions to make your 
decisions???   these are based on what???
[09:45] <weet> experiences only
[09:46] <JohnKnox> Alcuin: other presuppositions (such 
as the existence of an ultimate Allah) are valid too?
[09:46] <Alcuin> weet: Everyone relies on presuppositions, 
for there is no escaping them  They are a precondition 
of thought.  Correct presuppositions are recognized 
as such by the impossibility of consistently denying 
them.
[09:46] <JohnKnox> Alcuin: Why are they a precondition 
to thought?
[09:47] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: They are valid if they are 
necessary for the possibility of giving a cogent account 
of experience.  They are false if they undermine rationality 
and intelligibility..
[09:47] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Why are they a precondition 
of thought?  They are inevitably so.
[09:48] <Alcuin> More later, folks.  I must run an errand 
now.
[09:48] <Poimen> BBL...keep up the good work, Alcuin! 
:>
[09:48] <Alcuin> I'll be here later if anyone wants to 
pick up a thread!
[09:48] <Alcuin> Thanks for chatting, JohnKnox, weet!
[09:48] <Alcuin> Later, Poimen!
[09:48] <JohnKnox> Alcuin: what is the reason for stating 
that? Is it another piece of your Knowledge?
[09:48] Poimen (tashley@erc.cat.syr.EDU) left #apologetics.
[09:49] <Alcuin> JohnKnox: Haven't the time to respond 
fully to your good question.  Later?
[09:49] <weet> so i am irrational because i dont have 
the same presuppositions as you?
[09:49] <JohnKnox> bye Acluin
[09:49] <Alcuin> Briefly, however, the answer is that 
denial that God is a precondition of knowledge leads 
necessarily to the abyss of irrationality and real 
antinomy that you were describing earlier.  
[09:49] <weet> bye buddy good chatting to you
[09:50] <Alcuin> Weet, there is a sense in which, insofar 
as you reason at all, you do presuppose a certain concept 
of God that makes such a thing possible.
[09:50] <Alcuin> *wave*  Bye!
[09:50] Alcuin (kingtutor@remote4-line16.cis.yale.edu) 
left irc: Don't neglect to quit not being illogical!
[09:51] <weet> well jk very interesting chat but i to 
must be going
[09:51] <weet> cu
[09:51] <JohnKnox> bye
[09:51] Action: JohnKnox thinks presuppositionalism 
is a lost cause
[09:52] <JohnKnox> it is like firing cannons at eachother 
from islands
[09:52] <JohnKnox> when you have no boats :)
[09:53] <weet> hehehehe]
[09:53] <weet> bye bye
[09:53] <JohnKnox> bye
[09:53] weet (dumb@mark.manawatu.gen.nz) left #apologetics.
[09:53] JohnKnox (philcs@slip13.vianet.net.au) left 
#apologetics.
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