
[ref001]


#apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 4/3/96
#apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 4/3/96

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[04:14] <Acolyte> faux if you GO and READ any dictionary 
of the bible, there IS a species in the middle East 
of LOCUSTS, not crickets, that walsk on 4 legs
[04:14] <FauxReal> To you, but I believe your argument 
had more holes than swiss cheese. :)
[04:14] <pascoe> Jonesey:  there is more than one definition 
of species and evolution and science tho.
[04:14] <pascoe> Acolyte:  also, mantises walk on four 
legs.
[04:14] <samsara> Jonesey: how does science relate to 
religion?
[04:14] <FauxReal> Can you tell me which?
[04:14] <Acolyte> faux this is what leviticus is refering 
to since not all locusts were unclean, as John the 
Baptist indicates in the NT
[04:14] <Krai> that's the one I saw the picture on.  
I told her it had 4 legs!
[04:14] <Krai> she told me to "look again".  :)
[04:15] <Acolyte> faux can I tell you which what? what 
species? no, as mI am at worka nd Id on't haev the 
source handy, but email me and I will give you the 
exact name
[04:15] <Jonesey> pascoe:But the typical religious person 
I debate can't give me any that make sense
[04:15] <Acolyte> jonesy try me
[04:15] <pascoe> Acolyte:  also, an argument could be 
made that idiom is used like as in 'on all fours'.
[04:15] <FauxReal> Okay.
[04:15] <Acolyte> jonsey the typcial atheist I debate 
with doesn't know squat about Philosophy, so?
[04:15] <Jonesey> samsara:Science is the study of the 
physical universe. Whenever religion makes comments 
on part of the physical universe, it becomes subject 
to science.
[04:15] <Acolyte> pascoe true, either way, its no biggie
[04:15] <Jonesey> Acolyte:But philosophy is useless. 
What has it given us?
[04:15] <Acolyte> jonsey false
[04:15] <Jonesey> Who cares about it?
[04:16] <Acolyte> jonsey science for one
[04:16] <FauxReal> Pascoe: We've already discussed this. 
 IT's dropped as far as I'm concerned.
[04:16] <Jonesey> That's silly
[04:16] <pascoe> Acolyte:  also, we say centipede even 
in modern language even tho centipedes don't have 100 
legs.
[04:16] <Acolyte> jonsey it is? how so?
[04:16] <pascoe> FauxReal:  hey, I still want my $100. 
 8)
[04:16] <Acolyte> pascoe I know
[04:16] <samsara> Jonesey: but isn't religion what lies 
behind logical systems and human models? surely if 
you accept evolution, you must agree?
[04:16] <Acolyte> jonsey it is epistemology and metaphysics 
that makes science possible for one
[04:17] <Jonesey> Science arose as much out of construction, 
and practical knowledge as it did out of philosophy.
[04:17] <Jonesey> acolyte:That's baloney
[04:17] <Jonesey> weaving and farming contributed much
[04:17] <pascoe> evolution itself is an expression of 
religious conviction about the evidence.
[04:17] <Acolyte> jonsey the theoretical laid the groundwork 
for the practical
[04:17] <Acolyte> jonsey whatis baloney?
[04:17] <FauxReal> Pascoe: As soon as I verify that any 
insect uses it's mandibles to walk. :)
[04:17] Mode change '+o pascoe ' by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com
[04:17] <pascoe> belief in science as a method for arriving 
at truth is a philosophical presupposition.
[04:18] <Acolyte> pascoe empiricism for one
[04:19] <Acolyte> jonsey without an epistemology science 
would be impossible and never would have arisen
[04:19] <Jonesey> acolyte:Farmiing preceded philosophy 
by a great margin
[04:19] <Jonesey> acolyate:That is bollox
[04:19] <pascoe> FauxReal:  scorpions do that according 
to Fox's book on entomology.
[04:19] <Acolyte> jonsey AHHAHAH, not quite my freind, 
atomism for one came around 2500 yrs before it was 
verified in any meaningful sense
[04:19] <Jonesey> The arabs did a lot of early science 
with no epistemology to speak of
[04:19] <Acolyte> jonsey false
[04:19] <Jonesey> acolyte:early atomism wasn't science.
[04:19] <pascoe> Jonesey:  are you considering farming 
to be a science?
[04:19] <Jonesey> It was just sheer speculation.
[04:19] <Acolyte> joney the Arabs were using Aristotle,r 
ead yor history
[04:19] <Jonesey> Modern atomic theory is a whole different 
ball game
[04:20] <FauxReal> Well, then Fox is wrong, because scorpions 
aren't insects. Entomology is the study of insects, 
not arachnids. :)
[04:20] <Jonesey> Acolyte:Some were, most weren't.
[04:20] <samsara> Jonesey: I am confused.  Doesn't the 
observer (human) inherently bias what (religion) he 
is measuring with the measuring instrument (science/metphysics/philosophy)?
[04:20] <Acolyte> jonsey in essrnce it is the same
[04:20] <Jonesey> farming has contributed much to science.
[04:20] <Jonesey> In essence it isn't.
[04:20] <Acolyte> jonsey, do you know what epistemology 
IS?
[04:20] <Jonesey> This is a very different model indeed.
[04:20] <pascoe> FauxReal:  read his intro to see why 
he classifies them under entomology.
[04:20] <Acolyte> jonsey different ins ome respects but 
its basic assumptions are the same
[04:20] <Jonesey> Acolyte:It purports to be a theory 
of knowledge, but there are many radically differing 
brands of it.
[04:21] <Acolyte> jonesey wrong
[04:21] <Jonesey> So much so that it's hard to call it 
all "epistemology" with a straight face..
[04:21] <Acolyte> jonsey episteologyis the study of knowledge 
and how it is attained
[04:21] <Jonesey> It's hard to correlate protons, electrons 
and neutrons with the atoms of democritus
[04:21] <Acolyte> jonsey without a general working theory, 
there isno learning
[04:21] <Jonesey> acolyte:That's bS
[04:21] <Acolyte> jonsey, not really
[04:21] <pascoe> Jonesey:  science is always subject 
to new data.
[04:21] <Acolyte> jonsey oh really? how long have you 
been in the field of philosophy?
[04:22] <Jonesey> I have no idea of epistemology, but 
I have a lot more learning than virtually any philosopher, 
in terms of handling the world.
[04:22] <Jonesey> acolyte:Zero
[04:22] <Jonesey> No interest in the field, really.
[04:22] <Jonesey> It's useless.
[04:22] <Acolyte> jonsey I have 10 yrs in the field, 
how about you?
[04:22] samsara (jcc15583@132.170.24.89) left #Apologetics.
[04:22] <Acolyte> jonsey why is utility a criteria?
[04:22] <pascoe> Jonesey:  the pursuit of science is 
based on a fundamental philosophical presupposition.
[04:24] <Jonesey> acolyte:Because you're sitting here 
on the internet, BSing about how useful philosophy 
is. Has it given us anything to compare with the net?
[04:24] <Jonesey> Or the computer?
[04:24] Action: Acolyte wonders howif he does not know 
about Epistemology then how canhe have more learning 
about a field he knows nothig about???
[04:24] <Jonesey> Those all come from science, not from 
stupid word tricks.
[04:24] <FauxReal> Yes, the mind.
[04:24] <Acolyte> Jonsey yes, ethics
[04:24] <Jonesey> No, not the mind
[04:24] <Acolyte> jonsey without logic youwould not have 
computers to begin with
[04:24] <Jonesey> The study of the mind is just beginning, 
thanks the the advances of neuroscience.
[04:26] <Jonesey> But logic is a brance of mathematics.
[04:26] <Acolyte> AHHAHAHAHHA
[04:26] <Jonesey> It really began to advance with Boole.
[04:26] <Acolyte> wrong
[04:29] <FauxReal> The mind, the collective unconcious 
which has become concious through the Internet.
[04:29] <FauxReal> er, conscious, even.
[04:29] <Acolyte> jonsey the Law of Contradiction is 
the basis for math, not derived from it
[04:29] <Jonesey> computers are based on boolean algebra, 
implemented in semiconductor physics.
[04:29] <Jonesey> Acolyte:It's a part of math.
[04:29] <Acolyte> jonsey sure, but without the law of 
contradiction it is all BS
[04:29] <Acolyte> jonsey how do you show the law of contradictionwithout 
using it?
[04:29] <Jonesey> Much of math is derived without the 
law of contradiction.
[04:29] <Jonesey> I'm not sure what you mean.
[04:29] <Acolyte> jonsey the LofC is pre-mathmatical, 
it is an a priori
[04:29] <Jonesey> There are lots of constructive type 
proofs.
[04:29] <Acolyte> jonsey HAHAHHAH
[04:29] <Acolyte> jonsey you can't THINK wihout the LofC
[04:29] <Acolyte> try it
[04:29] <Jonesey> There are many axioms in math, does 
that make them premathematical??
[04:29] <Acolyte> you can't do it
[04:29] <Jonesey> You are just trying to define things 
away
[04:29] <Jonesey> Typical philosopher.
[04:29] <Acolyte> jonsey name me one that does not rely 
on the lofC?
[04:29] <Jonesey> Totally useless at real world tasks
[04:29] <Acolyte> fallacy
[04:29] <pascoe> Jonesey:  your argument this evening 
is quite philosophical in nature.
[04:29] <Jonesey> Whacking off on word games.
[04:29] <Acolyte> attackt he source ignore the arguement
[04:29] <Acolyte> great tactic
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[04:29] <Acolyte> jonsey it is word games when I talk 
but not when youtalk?
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[04:30] <Jonesey> I don't believe in science as a method 
for arriving at truth.
[04:30] <Acolyte> jonsey then how does one arrive at 
truth?
[04:30] <FauxReal> Jonesey: Go to #philosophy for a debate 
with real philosophers (tm) ;)
[04:30] <Jonesey> I see it as a method for building models 
which increasingly accurately model experiment
[04:30] <pascoe> disbelief in science as a method for 
arriving at truth is a philosophical presupposition.
[04:30] <FauxReal> Good, jonesey!
[04:30] <Acolyte> jonsesy is that a true or false proposition?
[04:30] <FauxReal> That's what science is.
[04:31] <Jonesey> Acolyte:Yes, it is, because I said 
so.
[04:31] <Acolyte> jonsey logical fallacy, appeal to authority
[04:31] <FauxReal> Philosophy is a way of arriving at 
the Truth.
[04:31] <Acolyte> tyry again
[04:31] <Acolyte> jonsey youa re commiting just about 
every informal logically fallacy in the book
[04:31] <Jonesey> Yes, but I appealed to the highest 
authority on the channel.
[04:31] <Acolyte> wish to try ad ignoratum next?
[04:32] <Acolyte> jonsey so? still invalid logically
[04:32] <Jonesey> philosophy doesn't arrive at shit.
[04:32] <Acolyte> watcht eh language
[04:32] <Jonesey> yes, I'm watching it
[04:32] <Jonesey> It's right there on my screen
[04:32] <Jonesey> Watch it too
[04:32] <FauxReal> Incorrect, it arrives at greater understanding 
of human nature and the nature of reality.
[04:32] Jonesey!Quantum@al.dialup.access.net kicked 
by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: Acolyte
[04:32] Jonesey (Quantum@al.dialup.access.net) joined 
#apologetics.
[04:33] <Acolyte> I said watch it, capiche?
[04:33] <Jonesey> Biology arrives at greater understanding 
of human nature
[04:33] Action: FauxReal watches Acolyte say, "*I* have 
the power!"
[04:33] <Jonesey> I told you,
we're both watching it, capiche?
[04:33] <Acolyte> jonsey assuming a naturlaistic paradigm 
yes
[04:33] Jonesey!Quantum@al.dialup.access.net kicked 
by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: Go somewhere 
else to be an ass
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#apologetics.
[04:33] <MrBell> hehe
[04:33] <FauxReal> No, biology arrives at greater understanding 
of living systems.
[04:33] <Jonesey> Acolyte:What medical advances has philosophy 
given us?
[04:33] <Acolyte> jonsey why does it need to?
[04:34] <Acolyte> jonsey what ethical advaneces has science 
given us? none
[04:34] <Jonesey> Plenty
[04:34] <Acolyte> jonsey what good is science if you 
don't know how it OUGHT ot be used?
[04:34] <Acolyte> jonsey name one please
[04:34] <FauxReal> It sure has given us lots of questions 
about ethics, though.
[04:34] <Jonesey> Now we can see that ethics is a purely 
natural phenomenon, arising even in the animal kingdom
[04:34] <Acolyte> fauxreal true
[04:34] <Acolyte> HAHAHHAHAHHAHAH
[04:34] <Acolyte> jonsey if thatis true then you end 
up with ethical nihilism
[04:34] <pascoe> Jonesey:  science is what we know, philosophy 
is the examination of reasoning and grounds for knowledge.
[04:34] <FauxReal> What!  Jonesey, I think not.
[04:35] <Acolyte> jonsey youc annot derive an ought form 
an is, sorry
[04:35] <FauxReal> Pascoe: No, *that*'s epistemology!
[04:35] <Jonesey> You're the ethical nihilist..you are 
coercive, for example.
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[04:35] <Jonesey> Yes, you can, if you feel like it.
[04:35] <Acolyte> jonsey how am I an ethical nihilist?
[04:35] Mode change '+o W ' by okc2.ok.us.undernet.org
[04:35] <Jonesey> YOu kicked me off the channel, for 
no good reason.
[04:35] <Acolyte> I had a good reason, youdid not comply 
with channel rules
[04:35] Mode change '+o ApoloBot ' by W!cservice@undernet.org
[04:35] <Jonesey> That was coercive 
[04:36] <Acolyte> so?
[04:36] <pascoe> FauxReal:  epistemology is philosophy.
[04:36] <FauxReal> Where are the channel rules?
[04:36] <Jonesey> We're not here to serve rules
[04:36] <Jonesey> Especially invisible ones
[04:36] <Acolyte> jonsey then go
[04:36] <Jonesey> that you arbitrarily impose
[04:36] <Acolyte> fine go somewhere else then
[04:36] <Jonesey> OK, bye!
[04:36] Jonesey (Quantum@al.dialup.access.net) left 
#apologetics.
[04:36] <Acolyte> geez what an ass
[04:36] <FauxReal> pascoe: That's like saying computers 
are IBMs.  IT's the other way around.  Epistemology 
is a branch of philosophy, not the whole.
[04:37] <Acolyte> faux correct
[04:37] <MrBell> Acolyte: watch your language   :P
[04:37] <FauxReal> Indeed, ac.
[04:37] <MrBell> :>
[04:37] <Acolyte> mrbell ok jerk
[04:37] <Acolyte> twit
[04:37] <pascoe> FauxReal:  I am using the definition 
of philosophy used on this campus.  sorry if it is 
too narrow. 8)
[04:37] <Acolyte> dope
[04:37] <FauxReal> pascoe: Yep.  Switch schools.
[04:37] <MrBell> Much better Acolyte....
[04:37] <Acolyte> pascoe it is too incorrect is all
[04:38] <Acolyte> well I should really go
[04:38] <pascoe> bye Acolyte.  8)
[04:38] <FauxReal> I wonder if jonesey is a teacher.
[04:38] <Krai> bye aco :)
[04:38] <Acolyte> have fun
[04:38] <pascoe> FauxReal:  how does your school define 
philosophy?
[04:38] <Acolyte> faux what an ignorant teacher then
[04:38] <FauxReal> I don't know.  I've never taken a 
philosophy course at my school.
[04:38] <Acolyte> pax
[04:38] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) left 
irc: Leaving
[04:39] <pascoe> FauxReal:  but my definition is wrong? 
 8)  ok.
[04:39] Krai (iris@prism.com) left irc: Krai
[04:39] <FauxReal> Pas: Yes.
[04:39] <MrBell> Godbless  bbl :)
[04:39] MrBell (Micah@ppp23.ihug.co.nz) left #apologetics.
[04:39] <pascoe> FauxReal:  I'll have to tell the department 
to change their catalog.
[04:40] <FauxReal> Philosophy is the inquiry into the 
most comprehensive principles of reality in general, 
or of some limited sector of it *such as* human...
[04:40] <FauxReal> knowledge or human values.
[04:40] <pascoe> Jonesey:  science is what we know, philosophy 
is the examination of reasoning and grounds for knowledge.
[04:40] <FauxReal> i.e. epistemology and ethics.
[04:41] <FauxReal> That is only the epistemological branch 
of philosophy.
[04:42] <pascoe> FauxReal:  I didn't give the complete 
definition of philosophy (which would include morals) 
because I wanted to stress the connection with science.
[04:42] <FauxReal> We're the only ones here.
[04:42] <FauxReal> Then you should just have said epistemology.
[04:43] <pascoe> FauxReal:  epistemology is philosophy. 
 8)
[04:43] <FauxReal> but philosophy is not epistemology. 
=)
[04:43] <pascoe> FauxReal:  but, I didn't say it was. 
 8)
[04:44] <pascoe> FauxReal:  I think you just want to 
argue.  8)
[04:44] <FauxReal> You implied it.  I was just filling 
it out.
[04:44] <FauxReal> I can't argue here...
[04:44] <FauxReal> I don't have an audience!
[04:44] <pascoe> FauxReal:  the discussion was the connection 
of philosophy to science, not philosophy to ethics. 
 so don't get too picky.  8)
[04:45] <FauxReal> Sorry, I'm always picky on IRC.
[04:45] <FauxReal> I guess I should lighten up on you 
people.  I can't expect everyone to go by my standards.
[04:46] <pascoe> FauxReal:  I would be too if I was offering 
$100 to people who disagreed with me all the time. 
 8)
[04:46] <FauxReal> That's true, pas.
[04:46] <FauxReal> Where'd you get your nick, anyway?
[04:46] <pascoe> it was given to me by my parents.
[04:46] <FauxReal> Ah.  For what?
[04:46] <pascoe> its my last name.  8)
[04:47] <FauxReal> Oh.
[04:47] <FauxReal> Anything interesting going on in #bible?
[04:47] <pascoe> no, silence.
[04:47] <pascoe> I should go read my email too.  bye 
for now.
[04:47] pascoe (pasc8891@xslip97.csrv.uidaho.edu) left 
#apologetics.
[04:47] <FauxReal> Ah.  Well, I think I'll head over 
to #Philosophy.
[04:48] FauxReal (ZCLL4@ETSU.east-tenn-st.edu) left 
#APOLOGETICS.
----------------------------------------------------------
[TANDEM BOT LINK: #biblechat]     ProfG: @@@ matt 21 
5
    logos6: Mat21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, 
thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an 
ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. (KJV)
     ProfG: Working miracles:
     ProfG: @@@ isa 35 5 6
     ProfG: uh oh, is the bot lagged, or am I?
     ProfG: @@@ matt 11 4 6
      hapi: bot
   Ferrago: the bot. i think
     ProfG: oh good
    logos6: Isa35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall 
be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 
(KJV)
     ProfG: I mean, *not* good
    logos6: Isa35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as 
an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the 
wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the 
desert. (KJV)
      hapi: 32 seconds...
   Ferrago: ok, well true, jesus was predicted....and 
that came true
   Ferrago: but, what about god, and his form, what 
does he entail, spirit, / body ?
     ProfG: There's a LOT more, which could ONLY have 
been fulfilled by the TRUE Messiah, who could ONLY 
have come from the TRUE God
      hapi: @@@ John 30 10
      hapi: er...
      hapi: @@@ John 10 30
     ProfG: God is a Spirit
     ProfG: bot lag, hapi  :(
   Ferrago: but then how does he exist?
      hapi: God is threefold :)
   Ferrago: what is his aim?
    logos6: John21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring 
of the fish which ye have now caught. (KJV)
      hapi: Father, Son and Holy Ghost...
    logos6: John10:30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)
     ProfG: how does He exist?
   Ferrago: if he a spirit.....
   Ferrago: slike a ghost??
     ProfG: a ghost?
     ProfG: God is all-powerful, not like any ghost 
*I've* heard of!  :-)
   Ferrago: heh, if he exists. then he must take a 
form, 
     ProfG: brb, gotta dry off my wet 1 year old  :-)
      hapi: hehehe :)
You have been marked as being away
   Ferrago: heh ok :)
      hapi: I think that sometimes we get too caught 
up in what He should look like..we are made in His 
image, though :)
      hapi: @@@ Genesis 1 26 27
    logos6: Ge1:26 And God said, Let us make man in 
our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion 
over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the 
air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and 
over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the eart
    logos6: h. (KJV)
    logos6: Ge1:27 So God created man in his own image, 
in the image of God created he him; male and female 
created he them. (KJV)
   Ferrago: his intellecual image /mental image, but 
not physical
   Ferrago: ok heres a question....
   Ferrago: what does he do...
      hapi: I'm not God...how do I know? :)
      hapi: hehehehe ;)
Philos is now known as MasterQ
   Ferrago: heh true
      hapi: He gives us the chance for eternal life 
in Heaven :)
      hapi: He is ready for us to come to Him in times 
of distress and times of joy :)
      hapi: He wants to hear about *from us* what we 
are hapi about and sad about
      hapi: Hewants us to lvoe Him and others unconditionally
      hapi: He wants us to be His :)
   Ferrago: how about the BIG question.........
   Ferrago: Why?
      hapi: even bigger...
      hapi: why not? :)
      hapi: why not believe in something that *only* 
prmotes good? :)
      hapi: s/prmotes/promotes :)
      hapi: there is nothing about God that is bad! 
:)
   Ferrago: why create us.....why give us the choice...
      hapi: He's *aaaaaaaaaaaaaall* Good! :)
You are no longer marked as being away
     ProfG: back
      hapi: because He wanted to ;0
      hapi: :)
      hapi: hehehehe :)
   Ferrago: but i do beleive.....just not in Him
     ProfG: Ferrago: what do you believe?
   Ferrago: it seems to much effort for that..
      hapi: why is it hard to believe in Him?
      hapi: He made good...
      hapi: too much effort to go to heaven? :)
     ProfG: Ferrago: what do you believe?
            hapi weighsthe options...heaven...hell....heaven....hell...
      hapi: HEAVEN WINS :)
   Ferrago: I beleive in Peace and honesty and all 
the crap that is disapearing ....probably the same 
as you
     ProfG: yes, but there is a difference:
   Ferrago: hapi: no too much effort for god
     ProfG: there is no *reason* to believe in that 
"crap" if you don't believe in God
   Ferrago: yes, there is
     ProfG: if there is no God, then there is no standard 
of absolute values
     ProfG: so why believe in "Peace and honesty and 
all the crap"?
   Ferrago: cause if you don`t beleive it is the way 
to live....then the world would be a place of violence 
and missery
     ProfG: Ferrago: so?
     ProfG: what makes that type of world wrong?
      hapi: but what do you think made us believe in 
goodness?
   Ferrago: So, i don`t wanna live in a world like 
that..where you gett mugged etc...murdered...
     ProfG: you don't "want" to, but what makes such 
a world wrong?
   Ferrago: cause there is no harmony, and peace.....because 
....
   Ferrago: becuase, there is no trust.
     ProfG: so what? what makes harmony, peace, and 
trust *right*???
   Ferrago: cause it`s my opinion....and if i thought 
it was wrong i would beleive in something else
   Ferrago: it`s right to me
      hapi: but where did you get the idea that itwas/is 
right for you?
   Ferrago: you tell me :)
      hapi: I can't :) 
      hapi: I'm not you :)
      hapi: ;)
     ProfG: Ferrago: what if it's not right for someone 
else? Is it ok then for them to promote discord, war, 
and lack of trust?
   Ferrago: heh
   Ferrago: no. prof, majority rules :)
     ProfG: if the majority are opposed to peace, is 
peace therefore wrong?
     ProfG: if the majority favor killing Jews, is 
killing Jews ok?
     ProfG: Ferrago, Might Makes Right???
   Ferrago: ahhh, but it has always been that way
   Ferrago: i mean
     ProfG: not asking that
   Ferrago: values, not majority
   Ferrago: wait..
   Ferrago: i beleive in what i beleive because that 
is what i have been taught to beleive in
      hapi: who taught you?
     ProfG: but we need to *examine* what we believe; 
if our beliefs are self-contradictory, we need to reassess 
them
   Ferrago: teachers / parents / myself / society
      hapi: how many Christians do you know?
      hapi: parents...?  teachers...?  friends...?
   Ferrago: hmm hard to tell......
   Ferrago: about 50 %
   Ferrago: of people i know
      hapi: do you thinkg that their beliefs have rubbed 
off on you any? :)
   Ferrago: yes....
     ProfG: if we believe in right and wrong as absolute 
standards, and we don't believe in God, then we are 
living self-contradictory lives
     ProfG: some call this "hypocrisy"
      hapi: and Who do youthink taughtthem? :)
   Ferrago: that is certain
     ProfG: brb, daughter's bedtime
   Ferrago: prof, i dissagree
You have been marked as being away
      hapi: Ferrago, do you believe inteh devil
      hapi: the devil?
   Ferrago: hapi: nope
      hapi: ProfG is a family man :)
   Ferrago: well, yes
      hapi: yes or no? :)
   Ferrago: i beleive that the devil is the evil in 
us all
   Ferrago: but not that he exists
      hapi: do youthink the devil is a being?
   Ferrago: it is a name tag
   Ferrago: nope
      hapi: so..youthink God is a nametag?
   Ferrago: yep :)
You are no longer marked as being away
     ProfG: back
      hapi: putthat tag on a body :)
     ProfG: Ferrago: you say "the evil in us all"... 
please tell me how you judge what is "evil" and what 
is "good"
   Ferrago: selfishness / mean etc.... evil
   Ferrago: kind / patince = good
     ProfG: no, not what your *definition* - HOW you 
determine what is good and evil
   Ferrago: bad spelling - life
     ProfG: what is your standard of judgment?
   Ferrago: heh. myself 
   Ferrago: comparision
   Ferrago: how else
     ProfG: I see. Then what if someone disagrees with 
you on what is good and evil? How do you determine 
who is correct?
   Ferrago: that depends
     ProfG: yes?
   Ferrago: say you have a different opinion then i 
respect that
   Ferrago: but if you steal from someone, i would 
judge it as wrong
      hapi: (judge not lest ye be judged...)
      hapi: (an eye for an eye...)
     ProfG: ok, let's say  my opinion is that ppl who 
have the nickname of Ferrago should be put to death. 
Where do we go from here?
   Ferrago: heh, i`m human,
      hapi: (thou shall not steal...) :)
   Ferrago: then i would think you are totally insane, 
i would ignore you
     ProfG: that's fine, but how do we determine whether 
I am right or not?
   Ferrago: cause i would think you are wrong....
   Ferrago: my opinion
   Ferrago: my opions vs your opinion
   Ferrago: two opinions
   Ferrago: that it
   Ferrago: but that is good
     ProfG: Ferrago, please understand where I'm coming 
from here; if you don't have *objective* standards 
of right and wrong, then there can BE no right or wrong 
in an absolute sense, so we end up with nihilism and 
anarchy and a worse off world
     ProfG: but in a non-theistic worldview, there 
can BE no objective standards of right and wrong
     ProfG: yet, most non-theists believe in right 
and wrong
     ProfG: Ferrago: was Hitler wrong to kill 6 million 
Jews?
     ProfG: Ferrago: was slavery in the Old South wrong?
   Ferrago: but.
   Ferrago: your standards are the 10 commandments
   Ferrago: and the teachings
   Ferrago: prof: of course
   Ferrago: yep
   Ferrago: wrong
     ProfG: Ferrago: prove it, please
   Ferrago: you prove it
   Ferrago: can you?
     ProfG: I can prove it is wrong by referencing 
the Bible, as you know. But how can *you* prove it 
to be wrong?
     ProfG: you see, *my* worldview allows absolute 
standards of right and wrong. How can yours?
   Ferrago: in the absolute sence, it is imposible
     ProfG: That is correct.
     ProfG: So, we have no right to say that Hitler 
was wrong.
     ProfG: Or chattel slavery.
     ProfG: UNLESS we have absolute standards of right 
and wrong.
     ProfG: Do you see where I'm getting at?
   Ferrago: but how can you prove the ten commandment 
to be absolute?
     ProfG: where = what
   Ferrago: yes i do
     ProfG: OK...
     ProfG: Let me just say this...
     ProfG: I respect your openness and honesty in 
questioning the truth of the Bible...
   Ferrago: thankyou
     ProfG: It is certainly your privilege not to believe 
it, and I would fight for that right on your part...
     ProfG: But I would like to ask you a question.
   Ferrago: ok :)
     ProfG: The main message of the Bible, which has 
been unquestionably the most important literary work 
in human history, is how a person may have eternal 
life. So...
     ProfG: what I would like to know is...
     ProfG: what do you understand that the Bible teaches 
about how a person may have eternal life and go to 
heaven?
   Ferrago: hmm well.. nope
     ProfG: no, I mean, what is your *understanding* 
of what the Bible teaches about how a person may have 
eternal life and go to heaven?
   Ferrago: ahh, by living life accoeding to gods rules...10 
commands etc..
     ProfG: I see... ok...
     ProfG: That's just what I was afraid of, Ferrago. 
You have rejected the Bible without even understanding 
its main message, for your answer is not only incorrect, 
but it is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches...
     ProfG: Now, don't you think that a more intellectual 
approach would be to let me share with you what the 
Scriptures teach on this subject, and then you can 
make an intelligent decision whether to reject or accept 
it?
   Ferrago: sure...
     ProfG: Great! ok...
     ProfG: After hearing your statement, I know that 
I have some REALLY GREAT NEWS for you...
   Ferrago: I bet :)
     ProfG: in fact, I would go so far as to say that 
you are going to hear the greatest good news that you 
have ever heard in your whole life! That's quite a 
statement, isn't it?
   Ferrago: 1 q
     ProfG: HEAVEN is a FREE GIFT
     ProfG: It is not EARNED or DESERVED
     ProfG: let me tell you something...
   Ferrago: it is.
   Ferrago: ..
     ProfG: a large part of my life I felt exactly 
as you do. I thought if I was ever to get to heaven 
I'd have to earn it. I'd have to become good enough, 
and work for it and deserve it...
     ProfG: And then I discovered something that absolutely 
amazed me. I discovered that heaven is absolutely a 
FREE GIFT - it is unearned, unmerited,and undeserved. 
It's FREE!
     ProfG: take a look at this:
     ProfG: @@@ rom 6 23
     ProfG: c'mon bot
    logos6: Rom6:23 For the wages of sin is death; 
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ 
our Lord. (KJV)
     ProfG: "the gift of God is eternal life"
     ProfG: isn't that amazing?
   Ferrago: yes,,,,but is it possible...?
     ProfG: this isn't just the way it IS...
     ProfG: it's the only way it *could* be...
     ProfG: let me show you why
     ProfG: The Bible teaches us that all of us have 
sinned, that there is not one of us good enough to 
get into heaven because God's standard is perfection!
     ProfG: If we have to be good enough, Jesus says 
we would have to be perfect:
     ProfG: @@@ matt 5 48
     ProfG: @@@ rom 3 23
    logos6: Mat5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as 
your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (KJV)
    logos6: Rom3:23 For all have sinned, and come short 
of the glory of God; (KJV)
     ProfG: In our thoughts, in our words, in our deeds 
- we have all failed to keep his commandments both 
by sins of commission and by sins of omission - that 
is, by the things we have done and the things that 
we have left undone...
     ProfG: This is the reason that none of us can 
earn his way into heaven. We can't save ourselves...
     ProfG: @@@ eph 2 8 9
    logos6: Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through 
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of 
God: (KJV)
    logos6: Eph2:9 Not of works, lest any man should 
boast. (KJV)
     ProfG: *not of works*
     ProfG: The problem of man trying to save himself 
becomes even more acute when we look at what the Bible 
says about God...
     ProfG: We know that God is merciful and loving, 
gracious and kind, but the same Bible says that the 
same God is also just and holy and righteous; that 
is is of purer eyes than to look upon sin; that he 
must punish sin...
     ProfG: The Bible says that God is angry with the 
wicked every day and that he has commanded all men 
everywhere to repent...
     ProfG: Of course, we know the Bible teaches that 
God is loving and merciful and gracious. He doesn't 
want to punish us...
     ProfG: He must deal with sin but he doesn't want 
to punish us because he loves us...
     ProfG: Now what is the answer to this dilemma? 
well...
     ProfG: God in his infinite wisdom devised a solution.
     ProfG: God sent His Son into the world to solve 
this problem for man.
     ProfG: So, who is Jesus Christ?...
     ProfG: According to the Bible, Jesus Christ is 
God, the second person of the Trinity, the Creator 
of the Universe...
     ProfG: @@@ john 1 1
     ProfG: @@@ john 1 14
    logos6: John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, 
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (KJV)
    logos6: John1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and 
dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory 
as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace 
and truth. (KJV)
     ProfG: God came down into human flesh.
     ProfG: What did he come to do?...
     ProfG: The whole Bible is about one great transaction.
     ProfG: Imagine I have a book in my right hand, 
containing a minutely detailed account of our life:
Signoff: hapi (Leaving) 
     ProfG: everything we've ever done, all of our 
sins, all of our thoughts, all of our motives, everything 
we've ever done in secret - all are recorded in this 
book...
   Ferrago: yeah
     ProfG: The Bible says that someday the books will 
be opened and everybody will know all about us...
     ProfG: That's going to be a red-faced day for 
many!  :-)
     ProfG: I'm convinced of one thing: if any man 
is judged according to the things recorded in the book 
of his life, he will be condemned.
   Ferrago: for all.
     ProfG: This book in my right hand is our problem, 
you see, our sin.
     ProfG: It's our sin upon us like a great burden...
hapi (~ssparaci@medea.gp.usm.edu) has joined channel 
#biblechat
     ProfG: This keeps us out of heaven. This prevents 
us from rising up to God. So what's going to be done 
with that?
            hapi is tired of phone calls...
     ProfG: In the Old Testament, God's provision for 
sin was described in all the foreshadowing and types...
   Ferrago: he gonner chuck it?
     ProfG: John the Baptist announced that God's Lamb 
had finally come. Then Jesus Christ fulfilled the mission 
that was his.
     ProfG: What was that mission? Well,
     ProfG: simply, it is described right here:
     ProfG: @@@ isa 53 6
    logos6: Isa53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; 
we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD 
hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)
     ProfG: pretend my left hand is Jesus Christ (no, 
really  ;-)
     ProfG: The Bible says God placed all our sins 
on Jesus, so transfer the book in my right hand to 
my left hand...
     ProfG: He has laid to the account of Christ our 
guilt, our sin - the sin which God hates. God has imputed 
or laid upon Christ our sins...
     ProfG: Then I read something which as a parent 
really astounded me:
     ProfG: @@@ isa 53 10
     ProfG: @@@ isa 53 4
    logos6: Isa53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise 
him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make 
his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, 
he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the 
LORD shall prosper in his hand. (KJV)
    logos6: Isa53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, 
and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, 
smitten of God, and afflicted. (KJV)
   Ferrago: but that sucks!
     ProfG: God poured out all of his wrath for sin 
on his own Son.
     ProfG: Christ in our place, as our substitute, 
paid the penalty for sin...
     ProfG: and he says that he goes to prepare a place 
for us:
   Ferrago: cause that means that in gods eyes every 
future murder / crime has already been paid for
     ProfG: @@@ john 14 2
    logos6: John14:2 In my Father's house are many 
mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. 
I go to prepare a place for you. (KJV)
     ProfG: in a way, and we can talk about that in 
a sec...
      hapi: *only* if you have accepted Him and ask 
for forgiveness!
     ProfG: He purchased a place for us in heaven, 
is the point.
     ProfG: Ferrago, the wonderful thing is that this 
place in heaven Christ purchased for us he offers to 
us freely as a gift...
     ProfG: remember:
     ProfG: @@@ rom 6 23
    logos6: Rom6:23 For the wages of sin is death; 
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ 
our Lord. (KJV)
     ProfG: By his grace, he freely offers to give 
to us this gift of heaven
     ProfG: so, how do receive it?
     ProfG: well...
     ProfG: remember:
     ProfG: @@@ eph 2 8
    logos6: Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through 
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of 
God: (KJV)
     ProfG: Faith is the key that opens the door to 
heaven.
     ProfG: Someone once said that faith is the empty 
hand of a beggar receiving the gift of a king
     ProfG: I like that  :-)
     ProfG: Many ppl think that they have faith, but 
they really don't know what it is...
   Ferrago: heh poetic :)
     ProfG: Let's see what faith is *not*...
     ProfG: Many ppl believe that Jesus lived and died 
and rose again. And they suppose that this is faith...
     ProfG: But this is merely an *intellectual assent* 
to certain historical facts.
     ProfG: The Bible teaches us that even the devil 
believes in Christ in this way. But that won't do...
     ProfG: Other ppl think that they have faith in 
Christ, but when you ask them what they really mean, 
they are only trusting in Christ for the temporal things 
of life...
     ProfG: such as health, or their children, or their 
finances, or strength, or guidance - the things that 
have to do only with this life that we live right here...
     ProfG: But what the Bible means by faith is *trusting 
in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation* - resting 
our hope of eternal life in Christ.
     ProfG: Christ didn't come down here merely to 
get us through an appendicitis operation or to get 
us safely on a plane to New York...
     ProfG: Christ came to get us to heaven that we 
might have eternal life.
     ProfG: Faith is trusting in Jesus Christ *alone* 
for our salvation.
     ProfG: Ppl trust in only one of two things:
   Ferrago: why?
     ProfG: either in themselves or in Christ.
     ProfG: why what?
   Ferrago: why create us why do any of it?
     ProfG: good question, and one that I think you'll 
see will be answered...
     ProfG: You see, I was trusting in the same thing 
that you mentioned you thought the Bible taught us 
to trust in - in my own efforts to try to live a good 
enough life...
     ProfG: Then I realized that if I could get myself 
into heaven this way, I would save myself;
     ProfG: and if I could save myself I would be my 
savior;
     ProfG: and if I were my savior then I would be 
in competition with Jesus Christ who claimed to be 
the Savior of the world.
     ProfG: what I need to do was to cease trusting 
in myself and start trusting in Jesus Christ...
     ProfG: And so, years ago, sincerely and repentantly, 
I did just that, and I received the gift of eternal 
life...
     ProfG: I didn't deserve it then, and I don't deserve 
it now, but by His grace I have it!
     ProfG: Let me give a little illustration...
     ProfG: is there a chair in the room you are in 
besides the one you are sitting in?
   Ferrago: er... lets assume the bed :)
     ProfG: Do you believe that that bed exists?
   Ferrago: no
   Ferrago: I know it exists
     ProfG: ok...
     ProfG: Do you believe that it will hold you if 
you sit on it?
   Ferrago: yes
     ProfG: It's not holding you now. How could you 
prove you believe it exists and can hold you?
   Ferrago: i know where your coming from profg,
     ProfG: really, how can you prove it can hold you?
     ProfG: seriously
   Ferrago: so you say beleive in jesus and putting 
your faith in Jesus is like the bed
     ProfG: humor me on this one
   Ferrago: by sitting on it
     ProfG: ok, let the bed represent Jesus Christ 
(no, really, again :-)
     ProfG: For a long time, I believed He existed 
and could help me, but I did not have eternal life 
because I was trusting my own good works to get me 
into heaven...
     ProfG: Remember what you said you understood the 
Bible taught on how to get into heaven? Following the 
Ten
     ProfG: commandments, etc.?
     ProfG: "I have to follow the Ten Commandments"
   Ferrago: yep
     ProfG: "I have to be a good person"
     ProfG: "I have to try to do the best I can"
     ProfG: along those lines, yes?
   Ferrago: remove the " :)
   Ferrago: yep
     ProfG: Who is the only person referred to there?
   Ferrago: I
     ProfG: Who were you trusting in to get you to 
heaven if you believed that?
   Ferrago: i was not expecting heavan
   Ferrago: i don`t know enough about it to know weather 
i want it
     ProfG: let's assume for the time being that heaven 
is more desirable than any other place  :-)
      hapi: in comparison to eternal damnationand burning...you 
DEFINATELY want heaven :)
     ProfG: heh
   Ferrago: Prof,
   Ferrago: i gonner have to cut a short
   Ferrago: a = ya
     ProfG: Ferrago, one more minute...
   Ferrago: ok...i am listening, kjust losing concientration 
:)
     ProfG: ok, just this
     ProfG: does what I've explained to you make sense 
to you?
     ProfG: To receive eternal life, you must *transfer* 
your trust from yourself to Christ, etc.?
   Ferrago: yes,
   Ferrago: yup
     ProfG: I mean, basically, you've just heard the 
greatest story ever told, about the greatest offer 
ever made, by the greatest Person who ever lived...
     ProfG: and, in all seriousness, Ferrago...
      hapi: and still lives ;)
     ProfG: I may never "meet" you again...
     ProfG: The real question is this:
     ProfG: Do *you* want to receive this gift of eternal 
life that Christ left heaven and died on a cross to 
give you?
   Ferrago: if the other option is burining the yes, 
but what is this eternal life? we know so little of 
it, do we have to trust him on this too?
     ProfG: the Bible tells us that it is "
      hapi: eternal life/heaven is the reward :)
     ProfG: life more abundant"
     ProfG: better than the spiritual death we have 
otherwise
      hapi: Ferrago, if you were to die tonight..where 
would you go?
      hapi: heaven?
     ProfG: it's not *just* heaven after we die - it 
is REAL life with Him in the here and now
      hapi: or hell?
      hapi: that question is quite rhetorical...you 
do not have to answer us....answer yourself...
   Ferrago: i would go to hell, is it is all true..
   Ferrago: is = if
      hapi: do you want to go to hell?
   Ferrago: nope :(
   Ferrago: :O)
     ProfG: The choice is yours, Ferrago. God loves 
you so much that he offers that choice to you. He will 
respect your decision to go to hell. But He doesn't 
want you to.
      hapi: Ferrago, Jesus wants you :)
     ProfG: Ferrago, you can choose *right now* to 
accept God's offer of eternal life.
   Ferrago: if i beleive i go to heavan
      hapi: He is here wanting you to turn ti Him right 
now and say, "Lord, I'm Yours!" :)
   Ferrago: if i don`t i go to hell
     ProfG: It's not a coincidence that you are talking 
to hapi and I tonight on IRC.
   Ferrago: what if i don`t believe in hell does that 
make a difference??
     ProfG: Ferrago: what if you don't believe in gravity, 
does that make a difference when you jump off a 100 
story bldg?
      hapi: just because you do not believe in something 
dfoes not make it not exist...
   Ferrago: profg, good answer
   Ferrago: ignorance is afterall no excuse
     ProfG: God is offering you this gift *right now*, 
Ferrago
     ProfG: The question I believe He is asking you 
is: "Do you want to receive this gift right now?"
      hapi: Ferrago, do you want it? :)
   Ferrago: of course
      hapi: It's yours for the taking :)
     ProfG: Then you can, right now.
   Ferrago: profg, changin ones opions after 20 years 
aint easy, but i will think in this when i awake,
      hapi: Ferrago, He will not leave you...ever
   Ferrago: i`ll read the log, but what you`ve said 
has clarified alot
     ProfG: God is here, right now, and we can go to 
Him in prayer and we can tell him that you want to 
cease trusting in your own strivings and you want to 
put your trust in Christ the Lord for your salvation 
and receive Him as your personal Savior...
     ProfG: you don't have to wait, Ferrago, though 
you can choose to of course
     ProfG: but no one has a guarantee of tomorrow
      hapi: Ferrago, you have two people right here 
right now most willingto do what you wantto help...
     ProfG: and we would be happy to pray with and 
for you
            ProfG is lagged...
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