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#apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 4/18/96
#apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 4/18/96

[18:25] ApoloBot joined #Apologetics.
[18:25] Mode change '+o ApoloBot ' by W!cservice@undernet.org
[18:25] <Questian> Rather long story, but essentially 
I found contradictions I could no longer ignore.
[18:25] <Questian> The problem of evil is probably the 
biggest stumbling stone.
[18:25] <Roy--> "Decides?" Quest..i wasnt aware one decided 
to become a Xian ..so how does one undecide?
[18:26] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: 
The Home of Rational Theism
[18:26] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial88.fiu.edu) joined #apologetics.
[18:26] <Questian> Usually, in the protestant tradition 
anyway, one does decide to be a christian. One accepts 
Christ.
[18:26] <Questian> That is a decision in my book.
[18:26] <MrBell> Greetings ProfG
[18:26] <ProfG> hiya  :-)
[18:26] <Questian> Hey ProfG
[18:27] <Questian> Roy:  What do you mean, "i wasnt aware 
one decided to become a Xian"?
[18:27] <Xpressor> hi prof
[18:27] <Roy--> Not in historical protestantism quest..one 
only has a change of mind and heart after one has been 
regenerated..cause and effect
[18:29] petal (hr567.cle@192.215.14.82) joined #Apologetics.
[18:29] <Roy--> I cant 'decide" to love the God whom i 
hate and hate the sin i love quest..i have no power 
to do that
[18:30] <Roy--> hello Prof
[18:30] <petal> Ah...I agree with that-man cannot choose 
God?
[18:31] Questian (serenity@slip21.UCS.ORST.EDU) left 
irc: Ping timeout for Questian[slip21.UCS.ORST.EDU]
[18:31] petal (hr567.cle@192.215.14.82) left #Apologetics.
[18:33] MrBell (Micah@ppp-302.ihug.co.nz) left #apologetics.
[18:34] Questian (serenity@slip6.UCS.ORST.EDU) joined 
#apologetics.
[18:34] <Questian> got disconnected again  :-<
[18:36] <Questian> hello?
[18:36] <Roy--> hi quest
[18:36] <Xpressor> hi!
[18:36] <Questian> So Roy, I'm afraid I never did understand 
your point about conversion.
[18:37] <Xpressor> what was yer prob with evil?
[18:37] <Questian> Didn't much like it
[18:37] <Questian> ;-)
[18:37] <Xpressor> its origin?
[18:37] <Xpressor> who does
[18:37] <Questian> Yes, its continued tolerance by benevolent 
deity, etc
[18:37] <Questian> The usual suspects
[18:37] <Xpressor> evil sucks
[18:38] <Questian> But it continues for inscrutable reasons.
[18:38] <ProfG> yeah, sucks, heh heh
[18:38] <Questian> According to orthodoxy.
[18:38] <Xpressor> hehehe sorry; )
[18:39] <Xpressor> without it would its oppisit exist?
[18:39] <Xpressor> in 3d
[18:39] <Xpressor> to us?
[18:40] <Xpressor> i dunno,  likei sed im new 
[18:40] <Xpressor> it sems imperitive to me tho
[18:41] <Xpressor> hello?
[18:41] <Questian> I don't know that we needed the Holocaust 
to appreciate love & goodness.
[18:41] <Roy--> quest you were saying you "decided" not 
to be a Xian anymore..i making the point the one does 
not "decide" to become one ..that is only an effect from 
the the 

initial cause of regeneration
[18:42] <Xpressor> it still doesnt seem that we as a 
whole do appreciate it
[18:42] <Questian> In any case, for me it is pretty concrete: 
for any instance of intolerable, unredeemable evil, 
if there is someone standing by able to prevent it 
who elects not to do so, then that person or being 
is not what I mean by good.


[18:42] <Xpressor> or we woulnt create holocaust
[18:42] <Questian> Roy: you seem to be saying that God 
causes us to be saved or not saved by his/her whim; 
a sort of fatalism.
[18:43] <Questian> Which raises its own variant of the 
prob of evil
[18:43] <ProfG> how do you decide what is good or bad, 
Questian?
[18:43] <Questian> Bad is causing harm to other beings; 
good is giving them love or service.
[18:43] <Xpressor> what would we be without evil?
[18:43] <Questian> X: good?
[18:44] <ProfG> why is causing harm to other beings bad? 
why is giving them "love" or "service" good?
[18:44] <Xpressor> i kinda thought individual conciousness 
depended on it to be
[18:45] <Xpressor> there is no good without evil is there
[18:45] <Roy--> fatalism or purpose Quest?.. Could it 
be God really completely and intirely saves helpless,depraved 
 sinners acccording to His purpose and not our willy 
nilly impotent "decisions"
[18:45] <Xpressor> thats like wet without dry
[18:45] <Xpressor> without its counterpart it loses its 
meaning ...its self
[18:46] <Xpressor> i think
[18:46] Action: Xpressor is no expert ..
[18:47] Action: Xpressor is just a guy who thinks stuff 
....sometimes
[18:47] <Questian> ProfG; all: I was sorry away for a 
moment
[18:48] <Questian> Prof: is it not self-evident that 
harm is bad?
[18:48] <Questian> There have to be first principles, 
or else we may as well debate solipsism!
[18:48] <Xpressor> wassat?
[18:49] <ProfG> Questian: yes, there must be first principles... 
but who says your first principles are correct?
[18:49] <ProfG> can you prove it?
[18:49] <Questian> solipsism?
[18:49] <Questian> I do?
[18:49] <Questian> Who says yours are correct, ProfG?
[18:49] <Xpressor> yea
[18:49] <Questian> If you say God, how do you know God 
speaks to you, how do you know bible is inspired, etc, 
etc.
[18:50] <Questian> You get the idea.
[18:50] <ProfG> The Bible does, Questian. That is my 
paradigm, and it is self-supportive. Can you make a 
claim as to why your paradigm is not self-contradictory? 
How can you prove something like logic?
[18:51] <Questian> Roy: I don't see any point in believing 
we're puppets of God.
[18:51] <Questian> It removes all accountability from 
us - & spare me the potter/clay metaphor, BTW.
[18:52] <Questian> Prof: let me get this str8: you're 
claiming the bible is a non-problematic starting point, 
but logic isn't?  Huh?
[18:52] <ProfG> Biblical theism allows for the use of 
logic. how does your paradigm?
[18:53] <Questian> You can pick paradigms out of a hat 
for all I care, but I sure don't see where you can 
claim superiority to a muslim citing the Koran.
[18:53] <Roy--> Quest not puppets...you said your "deciding" 
to be a Xian is protestant belief..i just dont agree 
with that statement..one no more can decide to become 
a xian than one can change his own heart..i

 cannot love that which i hate and hate that which 
i love
[18:53] <Questian> I happen to be a deist, Prof, so I 
think logic goes the heart of reality, as does love, 
but I'm not sure it's necessary to cite the creator.
[18:53] <ProfG> Quest: because I can show self-contradictions 
within Islam. There are none within Biblical Christianity
[18:54] <ProfG> prove the existance of logic, Quest
[18:54] <Questian> How can any discussion get started 
w/out presupposing logic? Presuppositions are crucial 
to examine.
[18:54] <Questian> What I jsut said - it's a given - 
or else we can be quiet right now.
[18:54] <ProfG> yes they are. plz examine yours. you 
presuppose logic, but you show no reason why you should 
presuppose logic.
[18:55] <Questian> Prof: I'll ignore your stupendous 
claim about lack of contradiction for now.
[18:55] <ProfG> I'll bet you will.
[18:56] <Questian> Because I *cannot* live w/out presupposing 
it - nor can you nor anyone - hence my earlier reference 
to solipsism.
[18:57] <ProfG> that's right, you cannot, but what *basis* 
do you give for such a presupposition? *Where* does 
logic come from?
[18:57] <Xpressor> without a creator there is no reason 
to believe there is any truth at all.. one cannot presupose 
logic in an arguement to determin its validity
[18:57] <Questian> How does one need a *basis* for a 
necessary presupposition?? It's properly basic, that's 
all.
[18:58] <ProfG> but it must be a *rational* presupposition; 
one cannot just presuppose *anything*
[18:58] <Questian> X: one cannot even begin to "argue" 
the valildity of logic - think about it, and read CS 
Lewis while you're at it. He understood that, at least.
[18:58] <ProfG> Quest: you say you are a deist; can you 
tell me why you believe this way?
[18:59] <ProfG> Quest: YES, logic is valid. But not outside 
of a Biblical theistic paradigm.
[18:59] <Questian> One must presuppose what is literally 
essential to life, what is literally inescapable, words 
to the contrary notwithstanding.
[18:59] <Questian> Logic is preeminent among such things.
[18:59] <Xpressor> one can that believes that it comes 
from god
[19:00] <ProfG> you SAY it is essential. PROVE it, without 
using what you are trying to prove.
[19:01] <Questian> ProfG: you might visit my growing 
deism website (http://www.orst.edu/~collets/deism.html) 
for more details, but suffice it that I found naturalism 
wanting in explaining various facets of existence, 
& found theism contradicto

ry.
[19:01] <Questian> X: one can believe that logic is rooted 
in god, but it isn't & can't be  necessary to a discussion.
[19:01] <Questian> to believe in the source I mean.
[19:02] <ProfG> Questian: you might visit the #apologetics 
growing website (http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html) 
for info, links, and *especially* the channel debate/discussion 
logs
[19:02] <Questian> ProfG: you are asking for the logically 
impossible. " PROVE it, without using what you are trying 
to prove" - when the "it" is logic - this is nonsense.


[19:03] <Questian> I could just as easily ask you what 
you gain by telling me  god "made" logic - it doesn't 
justify logic as if logic could be doubted otherwise.
[19:03] <ProfG> it IS nonsensical, when one insists that 
logic can exist apart from the God of the Bible
[19:04] <Questian> Well, I can't seem to escape this 
feeling of circular futility with you, Prof, with all 
due respect.
[19:04] <Questian> Oh that verse really cleared things 
up.
[19:04] <ProfG> just wanted to see it  :-)
[19:04] <ProfG> saw a bumper sticker with it on it today
[19:05] <ProfG> "NATIONAL ATHEIST'S DAY: April 1"
[19:05] <ProfG> heheheh
[19:05] <Questian> Plenty of christians are guilty of 
"abominable iniquity" as you well know. Doesn't seem 
germane, but it's OK if you like seeing it.
[19:05] Action: Questian laughs
[19:05] <Questian> I guess that's as good a date as any 
if they are fools
[19:06] <ProfG> so explain to me why you claim "deism" 
as your paradigm
[19:06] <Questian> Anselm, the namesake of my alternate 
nick, made a lot out of the verse "the fool has said 
in his heart there is no god" as you know.
[19:06] <ProfG> a regular op here often uses the nick 
of St_Anselm
[19:07] <ProfG> or St_Aidan
[19:07] <Questian> ProfG:  I see you dropped in on #deism.
[19:07] <ProfG> or Acolyte
[19:07] <Questian> Yes, I know all too well  :-<
[19:07] <Questian> Ppl kept confusing me w/ him for a 
while & it made me somewhat unpopular
[19:07] <ProfG> I guessed you'd be ther
[19:07] <ProfG> e
[19:07] <ProfG> good guess, huh
[19:07] <Questian> He is not universally liked, you know 
 ;-)
[19:08] <Questian> clever man, yes.
[19:08] <ProfG> lol
[19:08] <ProfG> rotfl
[19:08] <ProfG> I'll bet
[19:08] <ProfG> he is one of our best   ;->
[19:08] <Questian> I had to put "I am not Acolyte" in my 
whois for a while!
[19:09] <ProfG> lol
[19:09] <Questian> The problem was that I was hanging 
out on #atheism a lot.
[19:09] <Questian> But I've moved on to other channels 
now.
[19:10] <ProfG> I don't doubt they confused you with 
their worst nightmare
[19:10] Action: Questian laughs
[19:10] <ProfG> Acolyte that is
[19:10] <Questian> I guess so
[19:10] Roy-- (Rooster@205.218.167.51) left irc: gotta 
go
[19:10] <Questian> A couple ppl were really hard on me- 
too much so & too hastily,it's one thing that soured 
me on atheism - the channel I mean.
[19:11] <ProfG> heh
[19:11] <Questian> I hang on #holysmoke a lot now, besides 
maintaining the existence of #deism, of course.
[19:11] <Questian> I'm a couple of email/nick backers 
shy of getting deism registered.
[19:11] <ProfG> ah
[19:12] <Questian> As for your question about deism, 
it's a bit long to go into since I need to leave shortly.
[19:12] <ProfG> I understand
[19:12] <ProfG> please return sometime so that we may 
discuss it
[19:12] <Questian> I've visited your web page, BTW>
[19:12] <ProfG> I am interested, as I once claimed that 
paradigm for myself
[19:12] <Questian> I shall be back occasionally.
[19:12] <Questian> Oh, really?
[19:12] <ProfG> I hope you enjoyed your visit to the 
WWW site   :-)
[19:13] <Questian> So what was the sequence for you? 
Were you raised religiously?
[19:13] <Questian> Yes, I liked your site.
[19:13] <Questian> Have you made any changes in recent 
weeks?
[19:13] <ProfG> I was raised "religiously" but not as a 
Christian
[19:13] <Xpressor> well guys thanx for the  ride !!! 
but i gotta go to my kids teachers meetings G'blessprof 
and... uhhh... good luck question
[19:13] <Questian> So you embraced deism as an adult?
[19:13] Xpressor (kgb@slip2.worldaxes.com) left irc: 
Read error to Xpressor[slip2.worldaxes.com]: Connection 
reset by peer
[19:13] <Questian> Bye Xpressor.
[19:14] <ProfG> Changed the People page, and converted 
the logs to html
[19:14] <Questian> He thinks I require luck? Perhaps 
because I'm no longer  a Christian.
[19:14] <Questian> What is your URL (my bookmarks are 
all messed up)?
[19:15] <ProfG> http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html
[19:15] <Questian> thanks
[19:16] <ProfG> ApoloBot has the URL in its /whois
[19:16] <Questian> Oh, good
[19:16] <Questian> So you created &/or control ApoloBot?
[19:17] <ProfG> heheheh
[19:17] Action: Questian laughs
[19:17] <ProfG> I run ApoloBot
[19:17] <ProfG> created by some #Bible ops
[19:17] <ProfG> I have been an op on #Bible for forever
[19:17] <Questian> When you say you were a deist, do 
you mean the prevalent notion that the creator is fairly 
indifferent to creation?
[19:17] <ProfG> heh
[19:18] <Questian> You're in your 30s, may I ask?
[19:18] <ProfG> roughly speaking, yes
[19:18] <ProfG> yes
[19:18] <Questian> I see you have a nice animated gif 
on your page now.
[19:18] <ProfG> heh, lifted it from the IRS  ;->
[19:19] <ProfG> I was a "Jeffersonian" deist
[19:19] <Questian> cool
[19:19] <Questian> Well, Jeff didn't think god is indifferent, 
AFAIK
[19:20] Action: Questian is wondering why Alcuin is 
so secretive
[19:20] <ProfG> heheheh
[19:20] <Questian> I know it's Yale, what's the big deal?
[19:20] <ProfG> he simply prefers to keep his online 
presence limited to IRC
[19:20] <Questian> Is somebody stalking this guy or what?
[19:20] <Questian> I'm just curious, I'm not criticizing.
[19:21] <Questian> I observe that ppl have widely varying 
levels of concern for privacy online.
[19:21] <ProfG> no, he's just that way. I know him, and 
I understand.
[19:21] <ProfG> I've got a phone call gotta go
[19:21] <ProfG> God bless, we'll talk later
[19:21] <Questian> Me too bye
[19:21] <Questian> OK
[19:21] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial88.fiu.edu) left irc: 
Leaving
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#apologetics.
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