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#apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 4/21/96
#apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 4/21/96

[01:35] _Q_ (serenity@slip170.UCS.ORST.EDU) joined 
#apologetics.
[01:35] <_Q_> hey roy
[01:35] <_Q_> you're all alone?
[01:36] <roy> hello Q
[01:36] <roy> i was looking up some info on the bot
[01:37] <_Q_> were you abandoned by your compariots?
[01:37] <_Q_> This channel seems to die a lot earlier 
than many others.
[01:37] <roy> lol...i just got here myself :)
[01:38] <roy> i suppose everyone has to get up for Sunday 
morn worship services :)
[01:38] <_Q_> perhaps
[01:38] <_Q_> that doesn't seem to stop them on #christian.
[01:38] bitwise (bit@tahoe-d53.foothill.net) joined 
#apologetics.
[01:39] <bitwise> salutations.
[01:39] <roy> hmmm....i guess they are the nite owls 

[01:39] <roy> greeting bit
[01:40] <_Q_> hey bitwise
[01:40] <bitwise> any topics being discussed tonight?
[01:40] <roy> no we just got here bit
[01:40] <_Q_> not yet
[01:40] <_Q_> what's on your mind, bit?
[01:41] <bitwise> this place is usually quite at this 
time....are you all christians?
[01:41] <bitwise> all two of you, that is =)
[01:41] Action: roy is christian
[01:41] <_Q_> once was, no longer
[01:42] <bitwise> hmm..well then...let me ask this...
[01:42] <_Q_> are you christian, bit?
[01:43] <bitwise> Why did God create laws that could 
be broken (moral) and laws that could not be broken 
(say, gravity)?
[01:43] Action: bitwise is a christian
[01:44] <_Q_> laws is entirely the wrong metaphor, I'd 
say.
[01:44] <bitwise> probably, what do you suggest?
[01:45] <_Q_> the principles that govern the interaction 
of free beings don't seem analogous to those governing 
elementary particles.
[01:46] <bitwise> this seems true, however, it could 
be said that we are governed by those principles...as 
in my point about gravity.
[01:47] <bitwise> what made you forsake your christianity?
[01:48] <_Q_> Those principles don't have obvious application 
to, say, your decision to log on IRC tonight.
[01:48] <bitwise> if I may ask.
[01:48] <_Q_> The physical principles, I mean.
[01:48] <_Q_> Too many philosophical problems, chiefly 
the problem of evil.
[01:49] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: 
The Home of Rational Theism
[01:49] <bitwise> explain a little bit.
[01:49] <bitwise> the problem of evil, that is
[01:51] Action: bitwise stumbles into a lag-mire
[01:51] <_Q_> The toleration of intolerable evil by an 
allegedly perfectly good & loving god.
[01:52] <_Q_> Evils which we, lowly creatures, would 
not tolerate at our best.
[01:52] <bitwise> toleration? hmm....would it be more 
loving to destroy evil completely...right now?
[01:53] <roy> Q are you an athiest?
[01:53] Action: _Q_ is a deist
[01:53] <roy> explain please 
[01:54] <_Q_> It isn't a matter of destroying evil altogether, 
it's a matter of being non-arbitrary about what evils 
one chooses to eliminate.
[01:54] <_Q_> explain deism?
[01:55] <roy> yes is God perfect in diesm? or is God 
only a force?
[01:56] <_Q_> here's a macro I prepared for #deism...
[01:56] <_Q_> Deism is a belief in a loving creator, 
an ultimate & eternal being, who is omnipresent & omniscient 
but *not* omnipotent.
[01:56] <_Q_> Contrary to popular Christian propaganda, 
ultimate reality ("god" if you prefer) as conceived by 
deism is not impersonal at all, merely non-omnipotent, 
hence non-controlling.
[01:56] <_Q_> not a mere force.
[01:56] <_Q_> rather perfect love & grace
[01:58] <roy> if not omnipotent then how do you explain 
the origin of all creation?
[02:01] <_Q_> omnipotence is fine "prior" (logically, at 
least) to creation; creation nullifies it: kenosis.
[02:02] <roy> Q this seems nonsensical to me ...why would 
and attribute of a creator be nullified by his creation 
(kenosis)
[02:02] <bitwise> at creation, omnipotence was nullified?
[02:03] <roy> if God is eternal then his nature must 
be eternal also
[02:04] Silvern (mburnett@biggulp.callamer.com) joined 
#apologetics.
[02:04] <Silvern> hello
[02:05] <roy> If God nullified his own attribute of omnipotence 
knowing what would happen(omniniece) then He would 
be an evil God wouldnt he?
[02:05] Silvern (mburnett@biggulp.callamer.com) left 
#apologetics.
[02:05] <bitwise> Christ manifested a kenosis...and yet 
he did not loose attributes.  explain why creation 
nullifies omnipotence...
[02:06] <_Q_> I see the creator as temporal, albeit everlasting.
[02:06] <_Q_> brb
[02:07] <bitwise> hmm..
[02:07] <bitwise> where are you from roy?
[02:08] <roy> mississippi..and yourself?
[02:08] <bitwise> Ca.
[02:11] <_Q_> why would sacrificing omnipotence affect 
omniscience & make god evil??
[02:13] <roy> Why would he give up His power to control 
the evil if he knew what would happen...why would he 
even create in the first place?
[02:14] <bitwise> God does not control the evil.
[02:14] <roy> Same problem exists to me...unless there 
is another answer
[02:15] <bitwise> at least temporarily.  Although, He 
has the power to.
[02:16] <roy> i know but Q is saying that is why he rejected 
Xianty...because God doesnt use his power
[02:16] <bitwise> ah, yes...
[02:16] <roy> and we Xians believe God is in control...there 
are no accidents
[02:16] <_Q_> creation is out of love.
[02:16] <bitwise> so is freewill
[02:16] <roy> Q ...do you have children?
[02:16] <bitwise> thus, evil
[02:16] <_Q_> Freedom is all-or-nothing; real or illusion; 
there cannot be control and be freedom of creatures.
[02:16] <_Q_> However, the xian god allegeedly retains 
the controlling power but uses it selectively & arbitrarily.
[02:16] Action: _Q_ has not reproduced
[02:16] <roy> Q an example
[02:16] <roy> If you were going to have children and 
assuming it was planned
[02:16] <roy> Do you think 10years down the road the 
children will commit evil..lie.cheat ect?
[02:16] <roy> Wouldnt you have them anyway?
[02:16] <_Q_> let me say to "we Xians believe God is in 
control...there are no accidents" -- this is the essence 
of what I reject in xianity: it is nihilistic.
[02:16] <roy> explain
[02:16] <roy> how nihilistic?
[02:16] <_Q_> roy: re children I fail to see a real analogy 
there.
[02:17] Action: bitwise has never heard christianity 
called *nihilistic*
[02:17] <_Q_> nihilistic because if there is no real 
contingency, our actions are meaningless, predicated 
on illusion.
[02:17] <_Q_> bit: It's about time you heard it  ;-)
[02:17] <_Q_> It's my principle crtiticism of not only 
xianity but most religions.
[02:17] <bitwise> Q: let me try with a different twist 
(I don't have children) but parents have a measure 
of control over their children...and yet they are free 
to make there own choices...even if for rebilion...
[02:17] <_Q_> principal, rather.
[02:17] <roy> procreation of children for a purpose out 
of love knowing they will commit evil acts is very 
similar to me logically to God creating his children 
out of love knowing they will committ evil acts..so?
[02:18] <_Q_> The difference is that we would definitely 
intervene in their lives to prevent intolerable evils.
[02:18] <roy> so where is the problem?
[02:18] <_Q_> The xian god,tho able, does not.
[02:18] <roy> how so Z
[02:18] <roy> Q?
[02:19] <bitwise> we could not stop them...unless we 
literally bound them or incapcitated them some way.
[02:19] <_Q_> As we should if necessary.
[02:19] <roy> how do we intervene?
[02:19] <_Q_> You must understand the magnitude of evil 
I'm referrring to here.
[02:20] <_Q_> I'm not talking about lying!
[02:20] <roy> by correction...punishment?
[02:20] <roy> all evil is evil
[02:20] <_Q_> Would you not do whatever was necessary 
to prevent, say, the holocaust?
[02:20] <roy> lying is evil
[02:20] <_Q_> Kill Hitler, e.g.
[02:20] <_Q_> Sorry, some evil is trivial compared to 
others.
[02:21] <roy> if God is good ..lying is against His nature..he 
MUST hate it...and must judge it
[02:21] <_Q_> Torture vs lying: you figure it out.
[02:21] <bitwise> Hitler was not responsible for the 
holocaust.
[02:21] <_Q_> Judgement & wrath: other human-centered 
characteristics that have nothing to do with god,IMO.
[02:21] <bitwise> would killing one person stop such 
evils?
[02:21] <_Q_> BRB
[02:23] <roy> Q what makes evil evil?
[02:23] <roy> what is sin/
[02:24] <bitwise> roy: are there different levels of 
sin, as Q suggests?
[02:24] Ismene (sigh@134.193.59.2) joined #apologetics.
[02:24] <bitwise> greetings Ismene
[02:24] <roy> sure but sin is sin...the nature of sin 
is the same...REBELLION against God 
[02:25] <Ismene> roy...si is human nature, not rebellion 
against some higher power.
[02:25] <bitwise> Ismene, it is both
[02:26] <roy> rebellion against higher power(God) = human 
nature
[02:26] <Ismene> bitwise: no...rebellion requires a massing 
of forces and conflict. Sin is nayure
[02:26] <roy> We have All sinned and gone astray Romans
[02:27] <roy> rebels are those who trying to overthrow 
the kingdom of a Soviegn..hence we are rebels
[02:27] <Ismene> I am not trying to overthorw anyone, 
roy.
[02:27] <bitwise> well with such a technical definition, 
I might concede...none the less, the idea of his point 
encompasses a form of rebellion.
[02:28] <roy> you do when you sin
[02:28] <Ismene> bitwise: get out your dictionary.
[02:28] <_Q_> back in 10 min. if you wish to continue 
the discussion...
[02:29] <roy> God says do this...and say i will not have 
a god to rule over me...hence i WILL do as i please
[02:29] <bitwise> Ismene: I do not wish to splice apart 
words...I agree with your definition...however, rebellion 
is often used interchangably in our culture to imply 
what roy is saying...such as the rebellion of a teen 
ager against his parents...

etc.
[02:29] <roy> its part of our nature to rebel..like our 
father the devil(unbelievers)...we are his enemies(Romans)
[02:30] <Ismene> But the devil is...okay. Now...roy. 
i do not believe in such a being.
[02:30] <Ismene> so, how can a figment of your impagination 
forc me to rebel?
[02:31] <bitwise> there is no forcing, only persuasion.
[02:31] <roy> a rebellion against the commands of a soveirgn 
power is the same as rebelling against that power itself
[02:32] <Ismene> okay. how can a figment pursuade me 
if it does not exist
[02:32] <roy> force...you do it freely and love it...thats 
the problem...IT IS part of our nature...
[02:32] <bitwise> he could not, if he did not exist...but 
we contend that he does.
[02:32] <Ismene> bitwise: yet i contend he doesn't.
[02:33] <roy> i didnt say the devil made you do ...i 
said we are of the same nature
[02:34] <roy> None of us loves God and wants to do his 
commandments
[02:34] <Ismene> we are. all evil, just some of us can 
control it.
[02:34] <bitwise> why did you come to this conclusion, 
Ismene?  and, before I say anymore, I guess I should 
ask: do you believe in a God?  (though rare, I have 
seen people who believe in one and not the other)
[02:34] <roy> None is righteous ...NO NOT ONE..romans 
3
[02:35] <Ismene> I believe in a God, not your version.
[02:35] kcc (kcc@204.119.59.98) joined #apologetics.
[02:35] <kcc> hello?
[02:35] <roy> Do you love God with all your heart, soul 
and mind Ismene?
[02:35] <bitwise> how do you know what my *version* is?
[02:35] <Ismene> hey kcc
[02:35] <kcc> Hi..
[02:35] <bitwise> greetings, kcc
[02:35] <Ismene> bitwise: the christian god.
[02:36] <kcc> Is this a Christian room?
[02:36] <Ismene> by the way you treat me and the questions 
you ask, it is my logical conclision
[02:36] <bitwise> what does Ismenes god look like..what 
are his attributes?
[02:36] <kcc> hello
[02:36] <roy> Ismene did you say you believe in the Christian 
God?
[02:37] <kcc> why isnt fellowship room open?
[02:37] <Ismene> roy: no.,
[02:37] <bitwise> kcc: what are you looking for, friend?
[02:37] <Ismene> bitwise: i am not that arrogant to know 
what my God is specifically like
[02:37] <roy> what or who are you gods Ismene?
[02:37] <Ismene> roy: they are.
[02:38] <kcc> sorry to bother y'all, but does anyone 
know why fellowship room isnt open?
[02:38] <roy> are what?
[02:38] <bitwise> Ismene: I did not mean it that way 
at all...I merely was trying to get a grasp on your 
previous statement about him being *different* than 
the christian God...
[02:38] <roy> explain please
[02:39] <bitwise> kcc the channel #fellowship?
[02:39] <Ismene> I see the christian god as boxy, and 
therefore my god/s are de-boxed
[02:39] <roy> so you make your own god up that you like?
[02:40] <kcc> bye all..
[02:40] <roy> see ya kcc
[02:40] kcc (kcc@204.119.59.98) left #apologetics.
[02:40] <Ismene> roy: not that
[02:40] <roy> How does that solve the matter of your 
sin Ismene?
[02:40] <roy> your sin must be dealt with
[02:40] <roy> you do sin dont you?
[02:41] <Ismene> roy: no i am infallable
[02:41] <Ismene> kidding
[02:42] <roy> so what about your sin then?
[02:42] Action: bitwise notices that this was Ismene's 
mistake...thus his infallibility exposed =)
[02:42] <Ismene> Okay...bitwise. note the "kidding" after 
it.
[02:42] <roy> what will your god/gods do about your sin?
[02:42] <Ismene> And, bitwise, you need to brush up on 
your Sophocles
[02:42] <bitwise> and note the smile following mine =)
[02:43] <Ismene> roy: it is not what they do about it 
that is important, it is what i do about it.
[02:43] kcc (kcc@204.119.59.98) joined #apologetics.
[02:44] <bitwise> re kcc
[02:44] <kcc> something happened
[02:44] <roy> You see Ismene THAT is the problem with 
your paradigm what CAN you do about it?
[02:44] <bitwise> what kcc?
[02:44] <Ismene> roy: i can improve myself, learn from 
what i did, and change for the better
[02:44] <kcc> I was given +v then It was taken away and 
then no one answered me..
[02:44] <roy> What about the sins you have already committed?
[02:44] <Ismene> roy: what do you mean?
[02:44] <roy> What can YOU do about those?
[02:44] <kcc> the person took it away from the other 
person in that room..
[02:44] <kcc> no one was able to talk..
[02:45] <bitwise> kcc, there is no one on #fellowship 
tonight.  Did you try and msg LadyCarol...she may be 
away from her computer?
[02:46] <roy> Ismene the God of the Bible is unlike any 
god ...no only is He Good and Loving..but foremost 
He is Holy...sin must be judged
[02:46] <Ismene> roy: how can he judge who is eveil and 
good when he himself has commited evil. 
[02:46] <kcc> Ladycarol is the one that gave me +V and 
then we both lost it..
[02:47] <Ismene> he who is fallable
[02:47] <roy> if evil makes anysence in this world its 
only in the christian paradigm..Evil will be judged..every 
bit of it by a Holy Judge
[02:47] <Ismene> roy: that is sheer arrogance
[02:47] <roy> explain Ismene
[02:47] <bitwise> Ismene: explain your comment about 
God committing evil...
[02:47] <Ismene> explain what?
[02:48] <roy> God committing evil
[02:48] <Ismene> well, he did.
[02:48] <roy> Has God ever lied?
[02:48] <Ismene> he brought evil into the world.
[02:48] <kcc> how?
[02:48] <Ismene> kcc: he let it happen.
[02:49] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: 
The Home of Rational Theism
[02:49] <roy> Ismene show me evidene
[02:49] <roy> evidence
[02:49] <roy> how do you know?
[02:49] <Ismene> he is omniopotent right?
[02:49] <roy> What is your scource?
[02:50] Action: _Q_ has returned to join forces with 
Ismene
[02:50] <roy> yes he is omnipotent
[02:50] <roy> so?
[02:50] <Ismene> Q?
[02:50] <Ismene> thanks.
[02:50] <Ismene> OKay...now if he is omniopotent, than 
he has a lot of power right?
[02:50] <bitwise> welcome back Q
[02:51] <roy> yes all powerful
[02:51] <_Q_> christians are far too fixated on judgement, 
IMO.
[02:51] <roy> so?
[02:51] <Ismene> does he know everything.
[02:51] kcc (kcc@204.119.59.98) left #apologetics.
[02:51] <roy> Q you were the fixated on evil and how 
its not being judged:)
[02:51] <roy> sure
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[02:52] Nick change: knoble -> Fermat
[02:52] <Fermat> hi
[02:52] <_Q_> stopped, not judged.
[02:52] <bitwise> I must agree with you Q on that one. 
 However, the reasons should seem clear.
[02:52] <_Q_> I'm not interested in punishment, but in 
doing or permitting no harm.
[02:53] <Ismene> bitwise: sheer arrogance?
[02:53] <_Q_> yes, all to clear.
[02:53] <_Q_> too
[02:53] Wolfman (ss@remote201.compusmart.ab.ca) joined 
#Apologetics.
[02:53] <roy> merely stopping it?...why not judge Hitler 
for his deeds as well as stopping Him
[02:54] <bitwise> Ismene: no, not at all.  
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[02:54] <Wolfman> ...just a bit?
[02:54] <bitwise> greetings Fermat
[02:54] <roy> If God is Holy and evil is bad...evil must 
be judged
[02:54] <Ismene> roy: okay, so a God who knows everything 
knows evil is going to be brought into the world, and 
lets it happen. No points for cruelty.
[02:54] <_Q_> roy: what about grace & forgiveness?
[02:54] <roy> im sure your not Q
[02:54] <_Q_> grace is infinite.
[02:54] <roy> Q this lets you off the hook for all the 
evil you do
[02:54] <bitwise> greetings, Wolfman
[02:54] <roy> Do you do evil Q?
[02:54] <roy> Why do you do it?
[02:54] <_Q_> the creator is not concernec with meting 
out "just deserts."
[02:54] <roy> Why doesnt your god stop you?
[02:54] <roy> but be sure God Will judge you for it
[02:54] <_Q_> roy: precisely! that is the gospel of grace 
- we are all let off the hook!!
[02:55] <_Q_> my "god" sacrificed control so that there 
might be love.
[02:55] <roy> thats right .."the fool says in his heart 
no God"
[02:55] <_Q_> in doing so all manner of evil is risked.
[02:55] <roy> you God is evil to do that
[02:55] <_Q_> It gets down to the ultimate question: 
is it all worth it?
[02:56] <roy> and he is not Holy..without sin..if he 
will not judge it
[02:56] <roy> If he is righteous he will judge all sin
[02:56] <bitwise> Q: do you believe in an afterlife...heaven/hell?
[02:56] <roy> question is Q you still have the same problem 
of an "evil" god
[02:57] <_Q_> roy: now, like all true xians, you've brought 
out th ebg guns - threatening me with judgement
[02:57] <roy> an evil weak god who is not good or holy 
and apparently doesnt care about the problem of evil
[02:57] <_Q_> Afterlife, yes, hell no - it is an abominable 
doctrine.
[02:57] <Wolfman> ......Jesus Christ!...I go take a piss 
and you guys flipped three screens on me.....must be 
a heavey convo.
[02:57] <_Q_> The worst thing xianity gave to the world.
[02:58] <roy> A Good god= judgement
[02:58] <bitwise> okay...do you believe it will be without 
pain, suffering, sin?
[02:58] <roy> evil god could care less
[02:58] <Ismene> Q: agreed
[02:59] <_Q_> love = grace = forgiveness, as in the parables, 
e.g. the prodigal son.
[02:59] <roy> Q what about the problem of your evil?
[02:59] <_Q_> I don't even understand what you said about 
an "evil weak god" earlier.
[03:00] <Wolfman> ....My god is like the size of my bank 
account....seldom talked about......with a rteturn 
on interest that can barely keep up with inflation.
[03:00] <_Q_> Is my god evil in your eyes?
[03:00] <roy> scroll back Q
[03:00] <bitwise> God can forgive...but he does not "force" 
change...this is where we need to choose...and thus 
forgiveness completes the circle.
[03:00] <roy> yes evil weak and could care a less about 
evil
[03:01] <Wolfman> .....anyone here know the latest count 
on the number of gods in the world.?
[03:01] <_Q_> scrolled back... nope - can't see the evil
[03:01] <Ismene> roy: evil is weak?
[03:01] <bitwise> Wolfman scores two points for a sense 
of humor...
[03:01] <_Q_> wolfman: too many to keep track of  ;-)
[03:01] <roy> Imene a unominipotent god is weak
[03:02] <_Q_> the creator has all the power it is logically 
possible for a good being to hae.
[03:02] <Wolfman> ......unominipotent?...hmmmmm....
[03:02] <roy> Q what about the evil in your world?
[03:02] <_Q_> have.
[03:02] <Ismene> roy: than does your God qualify as such?
[03:02] <roy> yes ismene
[03:03] <_Q_> roy:  evil is the inevitable consequence 
of a multiplicity of free beings - I already said that.
[03:03] <roy> Only christainity has the answer to sin
[03:03] <roy> and evil
[03:03] <Ismene> roy: so your god isn't omniopotent?
[03:03] Action: _Q_ must briefly adjourn to prepare 
a steaming cup of caffeinated elixer
[03:04] <roy> evil is only biological nuerons firing 
in the brain Q?
[03:04] <Wolfman> ....does god play dice with the universe?....could 
it all be one big random cosmic swirl of matter and 
gas?....or...was Einstein correct?
[03:04] <roy> Ismene He is omnipotent..but He cant do 
everything
[03:05] <Wolfman> Roy...your wrong!.....the Catholics 
are the only ones that can eleviate sin.
[03:05] <Ismene> roy: if he can't do everything, then 
he is powerless.
[03:05] <_Q_> roy:  " evil is only biological nuerons 
firing in the brain, Q?"  - we are really on different 
wavelengths; I don't know where you get these impressions 
of what I'm saying.
[03:05] <roy> He cant do anything against illogical or 
against is own will
[03:05] <roy> and nature
[03:05] <_Q_> " Only christainity has the answer to sin<roy> 
and evil
[03:06] <_Q_> sorry
[03:06] <Ismene> roy: well, those two are seperate.
[03:06] <_Q_> slip of the mouse
[03:06] <Wolfman> Roy!...your wrong...the Buddhists are 
the only ones that can eleviate sin.
[03:06] <roy> He CANT make a circle into a square ..this 
would be irrational and illogical
[03:06] <Ismene> roy: to your mind
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[03:06] <Wolfman> Roy!...your wrong!...the Hindus are 
the only ones that cn forgive sin.
[03:06] <Ismene> roy: but how can you know what a God 
thinks?
[03:06] <_Q_> "Only christainity has the answer to sin" 
- its answer is to torture ppl forever!
[03:06] <roy> where is buddha wolf?
[03:06] Fermat (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) left #apologetics.
[03:07] <roy> explain torture Q
[03:07] <_Q_> Wolfman: there are dice all over the place!
[03:07] <roy> God cannot lie
[03:07] <Wolfman> ...Buddha sits across the aisle from 
your god in the cosmic bus.
[03:07] <_Q_> roy: eternal damnation, hell - that's torture 
by a vindictive "holy" being.
[03:07] <roy> what is hell all about to you Q?
[03:08] <_Q_> wolfman: thanks for injecting a bit  of 
levity   ;-)
[03:08] <bitwise> blessings to you ppls...I hope we will 
get a chance to discuss some more.
[03:08] bitwise (bit@tahoe-d53.foothill.net) left #apologetics.
[03:08] <Wolfman> ....peace be with you bitwise.
[03:08] <roy> i thought you were concerned about the 
evil in the world Q
[03:09] <_Q_> yes, roy, what about it?
[03:09] <Wolfman> ....there is evil in the world?
[03:09] <Ismene> roy: concern for the world has little 
to do with what religion you are
[03:10] <roy> Q perhaps God is mad at the evil too
[03:10] <Wolfman> ......BINGO!...well said Ismene!
[03:10] <Ismene> Wolf: thanks :)
[03:10] <_Q_> roy: hell is insane, it is everlasting 
torture, you know that good & well from the bible & traditio.
[03:11] <roy> insane ..how so Q?
[03:11] <roy> why is eternal punishment insane?
[03:11] <_Q_> if god is perfect, passions & anger do not 
override its good purposes.
[03:11] <roy> explain
[03:11] <_Q_> good grief!
[03:11] <Ismene> roy: because what can one man do that 
is so evil that is desevers eternal punishmnt?
[03:12] <roy> Good purposes..what good purposes can evil 
have?
[03:12] <_Q_> I can't "explain" to someone why eternal 
punishment is insane!
[03:12] <_Q_> if you don't see that, you're in another 
world.
[03:12] <roy> IF God is perfect then he must by nature 
hate all evil
[03:12] <Ismene> roy: byt its not.
[03:12] <_Q_> who said evil has "good purposes"?
[03:12] <Ismene> but, even
[03:13] <roy> if you cant explain then perhaps there 
is no evidence for your statement
[03:13] <roy> you did Q
[03:14] <roy> anger overide his good purposes
[03:14] <_Q_> fine, as you wish, go on believing in perfectly 
reasonable eternal punishment.
[03:14] <Wolfman> Ismene...i would rather follow someone 
with half a wit and a truckfull of common sense to 
eleviate evil from this world....than some half-baked 
brain washed "holier than thou" hypocritical soot

hsayer......I am sure you would agree.
[03:15] <Wolfman> ....anyone here study Plato?..
[03:17] _Q_ (serenity@slip170.UCS.ORST.EDU) got netsplit.
[03:17] W (cservice@undernet.org) got netsplit.
[03:17] roy (roy@205.218.167.65) got netsplit.
[03:17] Ismene (sigh@134.193.59.2) got netsplit.
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