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#apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 5/13/96
#apologetics:  DEBATE LOGS - 5/13/96

[17:58] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial60.fiu.edu) joined #apologetics.
[18:22] Melkor (Morgoth@Cb.globalx.net) joined #apologetics.
[18:22] <ProfG> heh
[18:22] <Melkor> if a tree falls in the woods and no 
one is around to hear it does it make a noise?
[18:22] <Melkor> hello
[18:23] <ProfG> hiya Mel
[18:23] <Melkor> how r u today prof?
[18:23] <ProfG> better  :-)
[18:23] <Melkor> compared to what?
[18:23] <ProfG> can type again  :-)
[18:23] <ProfG> had an accident
[18:23] <Melkor> that could be handy
[18:23] <Melkor> what happened?
[18:23] <ProfG> riding my bicycle, got hit by a car  
  heheheh
[18:24] <Melkor> that just might hurt
[18:24] <ProfG> that's Miami fer ya
[18:24] <ProfG> dislocated shoulder
[18:24] <Melkor> so...if a tree falls in the woods and 
no one is around to hear it does it make a noise?
[18:24] <ProfG> of course
[18:24] <Melkor> nope it doesn't
[18:24] <ProfG> noise is not dependent upon the hearer
[18:25] <Melkor> if no one was around to hear it then 
it didn't make a noise
[18:25] <Melkor> of course it depends on what u think 
reality is
[18:25] <ProfG> noise is sound waves travelling through 
the air. that doesn't change just because there is 
no receptor
[18:26] <Melkor> i am well aware of the scientific definition 
of noise
[18:26] <ProfG> that's nice.
[18:26] <Melkor> ya it is:)
[18:26] <ProfG> :-)
[18:26] <ProfG> is svenson my best buddy now?  :-)
[18:26] <Melkor> i think that question has more to do 
with whether there is reality outside of mans mind
[18:26] <Melkor> oh ya he loves u
[18:26] <ProfG> heh
[18:27] <ProfG> I don't think that question has much 
to do with that at all.
[18:27] <Melkor> well i do...in a sense
[18:27] <ProfG> what sense is that?
[18:28] <Melkor> without mankind there is nothing
[18:28] <ProfG> prove it
[18:28] <Melkor> reality doesn't exist 
[18:28] <Melkor> it can't be proven
[18:28] <Melkor> just a thought 
[18:28] <ProfG> then why should I believe it?
[18:28] <Melkor> i had this morning
[18:28] <Melkor> i'm not telling u 2
[18:28] <ProfG> oh.
[18:28] <Melkor> just giving u something to think about
[18:29] <ProfG> well, that certainly is interesting.
[18:29] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu: 
The Home of Rational Theism
[18:29] <ProfG> Apolo's timer went off  :-)
[18:29] <Melkor> ok...thought there was a ghost in here 
or something
[18:29] SynnerJim (SynnerJim@www-38-236.gnn.com) joined 
#apologetics.
[18:29] <ProfG> hello Jim  :-)
[18:29] <SynnerJim> Well, well
[18:30] <ProfG> and well
[18:30] <SynnerJim> Don't give me no smiley faces
[18:30] <ProfG> lol
[18:30] <Melkor> whoa
[18:30] <ProfG> ;->
[18:30] <Melkor> tensions rise
[18:30] <ProfG> 8)
[18:31] <ProfG> =:^>
[18:31] W (cservice@undernet.org) got netsplit.
[18:31] <SynnerJim> So you apologize for xianity here?...must 
be a full time job
[18:31] <Melkor> :~(
[18:31] <ProfG> whoa netsplit
[18:31] Nick change: Melkor -> Meaglin
[18:31] <ProfG> doh
[18:31] <SynnerJim> And "rational theism"? ...an oxymoron 
if there ever was one
[18:32] <SynnerJim> Does that involve the traditional 
xian means of defence?...like burnings at the stake, 
crematoria & mass graves?
[18:32] <Meaglin> there r none that doeth good?
[18:33] <Meaglin> whoever wrote that is a fool 
[18:33] <SynnerJim> I actually own a couple bibles...they're 
not as fun as the other mythologies I own
[18:33] <ProfG> Jim: no, those aren't "Christian" means 
of defense, for they are not Biblical apologetics
[18:34] <SynnerJim> A xian is a xian is a xian
[18:34] <ProfG> Jim: tell me what you think of the Bibles 
you own.
[18:34] <ProfG> Meaglin: no, not one
[18:34] <Meaglin> profg....my mother does good
[18:34] <SynnerJim> Not much... I see a basically bigoted 
world view reflected in them
[18:35] <Meaglin> so i guess that is wrong
[18:35] <ProfG> Jim: do you not have a "bigoted world 
view"?
[18:35] <SynnerJim> Not really....
[18:35] W (cservice@undernet.org) returned to #apologetics.
[18:35] <ProfG> Jim: I'll bet you do.
[18:35] <Meaglin> if man does not exist...nothing exists
[18:35] <SynnerJim> I wouldn't declare those who disagree 
with me "Satanic", like xians do
[18:35] <ProfG> Meaglin: prove your assertion.
[18:36] Mode change '+o W ' by okc.ok.us.undernet.org
[18:36] <Meaglin> :(
[18:36] <Meaglin> :)
[18:36] <ProfG> Jim: no, but you declare them "wrong"
[18:36] <Meaglin> like i said profg...just something 
to think about
[18:36] <SynnerJim> Prof...have you read Elaine Pagels 
latest book, "The Origin of Satan"?
[18:36] <ProfG> think about in what way, Meaglin?
[18:36] <Meaglin> profg..that verse in not correct...my 
mother is a good person
[18:36] <Meaglin> any way u want
[18:36] <ProfG> no, Jim, I haven't read that particular 
title.
[18:36] <SynnerJim> Yeah, but Prof....I don't burn people 
at the stake
[18:37] <ProfG> Meaglin: how do you know your mother 
is a good person?
[18:37] <ProfG> Jim: neither do I.  :-)
[18:37] <Meaglin> because i see her do "good" things
[18:37] <ProfG> Meaglin: how do you know those things 
are "good"?
[18:37] <SynnerJim> You're a xian Prof...sure you do
[18:37] <Meaglin> she cares about other people
[18:37] <ProfG> Jim: prove I do.
[18:37] <ProfG> Meaglin: how do you know that that is 
a good thing?
[18:37] <Meaglin> profg...good is what u think it is
[18:37] <SynnerJim> Isn't that the REAL threat behind 
the "fires of hell"?
[18:38] <ProfG> Meaglin: so if "good is what u think it 
is" then how can I be wrong if I say your mother is 
not good?
[18:38] <ProfG> Jim: what?
[18:38] W (cservice@undernet.org) got netsplit.
[18:38] <SynnerJim> The xian church burned witches, Cathars, 
Templars & Jews at the stake
[18:38] W (cservice@undernet.org) returned to #apologetics.
[18:38] Mode change '+o W ' by channels2.undernet.org
[18:38] <Meaglin> profg....because i disagree
[18:39] <ProfG> Jim: sinful men in the Roman Catholic 
church did that.
[18:39] <SynnerJim> Ergo, it is a typical way for xians 
to deal with those who disagree with them
[18:39] <Meaglin> i don't doubt for a minute u think 
my mother is not good
[18:39] <ProfG> Meaglin: prove you are right and I am 
wrong then.
[18:39] <Meaglin> i can prove nothing....it is irrelevant
[18:39] <SynnerJim> Well, the English church did their 
share...as did the Presbyterians in Scotland
[18:40] <ProfG> what is irrelevant?
[18:40] <Meaglin> proving it
[18:40] <Meaglin> i think it is so it doesn't matter
[18:40] <ProfG> Jim: if a person calls himself a logician 
and commits nothing but logical fallacies and says 
they are not illogical, is that person truly a logician?
[18:41] <ProfG> Meaglin: a difficult way to live one's 
life.
[18:41] <Meaglin> not really
[18:41] <SynnerJim> But all xians are believers in those 
bibles
[18:41] <ProfG> "I think the light is green so it doesn't 
matter"
[18:41] <ProfG> but the light is red
[18:41] <ProfG> oops
[18:41] <Meaglin> profg..not in the least
[18:41] <SynnerJim> They found justification in 
[18:41] <Meaglin> red is white and white is black
[18:41] <SynnerJim> But...there is no light
[18:42] <ProfG> Jim: prove that all people who call themselves 
Christians are believers in the whole Bible.
[18:42] <SynnerJim> A traffic light is real
[18:42] <ProfG> Jim: you made a universal statement, 
now please prove it.
[18:42] <SynnerJim> Nope....
[18:42] <ProfG> Meaglin: uhhhh... make some sense please?
[18:42] <Meaglin> prof..prove my statement wrong
[18:42] <ProfG> nope is right
[18:42] <ProfG> you can't prove it, Jim
[18:42] <ProfG> baseless
[18:42] <SynnerJim> You xians start pogroms at the drop 
of a hat...you're tryin to start one now
[18:43] <ProfG> "You atheists massacre millions at the 
drop of a hat ... you're trying to do so now"
[18:43] <Meaglin> synner...who cares about xianity and 
petty bickering...i need my color wheel finished for 
tommorow
[18:43] <Meaglin> red is white and white is black
[18:44] <Meaglin> prof..prove my statement wrong
[18:44] <SynnerJim> Sure I can...all those folks I mentioned 
used your bibles for their own ends...ergo those who 
use those bibles must at least accept those methods
[18:44] <ProfG> Jim: the actions of a few who claim to 
follow a belief system do not prove whether a particular 
belief system is right or wrong.
[18:44] <Meaglin> synner arguing whether god exists is 
pointless
[18:44] <ProfG> Meaglin: the proof is in the definition
[18:44] <SynnerJim> Tell that to the Albigenes, Prof
[18:45] <Meaglin> what definition?
[18:45] <ProfG> Meaglin: red is not white because red 
is not defined as white.
[18:45] <Meaglin> prove it isn't
[18:45] <SynnerJim> Ther is no argument Meaglin...there 
are no gods...only believers in them
[18:45] <ProfG> the proof is in the definition.
[18:46] <Meaglin> prove the definition is correct
[18:46] <ProfG> "there are no atheists...only people who 
claim to be atheists"
[18:46] <Meaglin> synner it doesn't matter if there is 
a god or not
[18:46] <SynnerJim> What color of red
[18:46] <SynnerJim> Optical colors or pigments?
[18:46] <ProfG> Meaglin: because for red to be white 
would be a logical fallacy. Unless you are willing 
to discard logic and be illogical and irrational.
[18:47] <ProfG> which wouldn't surprise me about now.
[18:47] <Meaglin> how is it a logical fallacy?
[18:47] <SynnerJim> Sure it does Meaglin..at its root 
it is basically a political issue
[18:47] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu: 
There are no atheists...only people who claim to be 
atheists
[18:48] <SynnerJim> It's not Meaglin..ProfG's root cause 
(god) is the logical fallacy
[18:48] <Meaglin> damn...gotta go...i'll be back though...prof..there 
is no logical way of thinking
[18:48] <ProfG> Meaglin: "My car is in the driveway, and 
my car is not in the driveway." logical fallacy. "red 
is red, and red is not red." logical fallacy.
[18:48] <Meaglin> profg..your car is everywhere at once..prove 
it isn't
[18:48] <ProfG> Jim: you aren't an atheist.
[18:48] <Meaglin> later
[18:48] Meaglin (Morgoth@Cb.globalx.net) left irc: 

[18:48] <ProfG> doh
[18:49] <SynnerJim> Bye xians..hope people treat you 
the way you've treated them!
[18:49] SynnerJim (SynnerJim@www-38-236.gnn.com) left 
#apologetics.
[18:49] <ProfG> doh
[19:10] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial60.fiu.edu) left #apologetics.Original 
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