(121) Sun 13 Apr 97 11:01 By: Rod Swift To: Doug Schwandt Re: Doug is a liar! :) 1/ St: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:8699 228d5820 @MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33504c74 * On 02-04-97 at 18:56, DOUG SCHWANDT wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA, on the topic of "ACLU News 01-30-97: C" in echo Holysmoke: DS> JB>It is government giving special treatment to one religious group over DS> JB>another. That IS the beginning of the establishment of a religion as DS> JB>THE religion of that state. It is prohibited by the constitution. Period . DS> It is NOT, and all you have to support yourself is your interpretation DS> of the intent of the Founding Fathers. Sorry, you are wrong. Read below to be debunked! ___------------------------------------------------------------------------- The address of the Danbury Baptist Association in the State of Connecticut, assembled October 7th, 1801. To Thomas Jefferson Esq., President of the United States of America. Sir, Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your Election to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your Inauguration, to express our great satisfaction, in your appointment to the chief Magistracy in the United States. And though our mode of expression may be less courtly [stylish] and pompious [pompous] than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, Sir, to believe that none are more sincere. Our Sentiments are uniformly on the side of Religious Liberty--That Religion is at all times and places a Matter between God and Individuals--That no man ought to suffer in Name, person or effects on account of his religious Opinions--That the legitimate Power of civil Government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbour. But Sir, our [Connecticut] constitution of government is not specific. Our antient [ancient] charter, together with the Laws made coincident therewith, were adopted as the Basis of our government At the time of our revolution, and such had been our laws and usages [practices], & such still are, that religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, & therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights: and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those, who seek after power & gain under the pretence of government & Religion should reproach their fellow men--should reproach their chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion Law, & good order because he will not, dares not assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make Laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ. Sir, we are sensible that the president of the United States is not the national Legislator, and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the Laws of each State; but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved President, which have had such genial Effect already, like the radient beams of the Sun, will shine & forever prevail through all these States and all the world till Hierarchy and Tyranny be destroyed from the Earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services and see a glow of philanthropy and good will shining forth in a course of more than thirty years we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the chair of State out of that good will which he bears to the Millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence & the voice of the people have called you to sustain, and support you in your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth & importance on the poverty and subjection of the people. And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator. Signed in behalf of the Association, Neh'[emia]h Dodge The Committee Eph'[rai]m Robbins Stephen S. Nelson ___------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut. Gentlemen The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing. Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which delcared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem. ThJefferson Jan. 1, 1802 ___------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHURCH AND STATE SEPARATION By Gene Garman The principle of separation between church and state was a part of America's history for over a century before the Constitution was written: "When they have opened a gap in the . . . wall of separation between the Garden of the Church and the wildernes of the world, God hath ever . . . made his Garden a Wildernesse" (Roger Williams, 1644, Writings of Roger Williams, 1:392). The Founders could not have stated the principle of separation any more clearly than when they wrote: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States" (U. S. Constitution, 1787, Art. 6, Sec. 3). President Washington explained the reason for only one reference to religion in the Constitution: "I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe [credit] the absence of any regulation [law], respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta [Constitution] of our country" (George Washington, 1789, Papers of George Washington, Presidential Series, 4:274). The First Amendment was added to further guarantee the principle of separation and many historical references define its meaning: "The general government is proscribed [prohibited] from the interfering, in any manner whatsoever, in matters respecting religion" (James Madison, 1790, Papers of James Madison, 13:16). "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion" (John Adams, 1797, Hunter Miller, Treaties and other International Acts of the United States of America, 2:365). >>> Continued to next message * OLX 2.1 TD * I'm not dead, I'm metabolically-challenged --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660) SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 SEEN-BY: 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 SEEN-BY: 213/213 218/2 801 890 900 901 907 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 SEEN-BY: 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666 322/739 323/107 SEEN-BY: 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 SEEN-BY: 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 45 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 SEEN-BY: 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1 @PATH: 690/660 396/1 218/907 801 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (122) Sun 13 Apr 97 11:01 By: Rod Swift To: Doug Schwandt Re: Doug is a liar! :) 2/ St: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:7699 228d5820 @MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33504c76 >>> Continued from previous message "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State" (Thomas Jefferson, 1802, Andrew A. Lipscomb, Writings of Thomas Jefferson, 16:281). "Governments are limited by the essential distinction between civil and religious functions" (Madison, 1811, Gaillard Hunt, Writings of James Madison, 8:132). "The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment'" (Madison, 1811, Writings, 8:133). "And may I not be allowed to . . . read in the character of the American people, in their devotion to true liberty and to the Constitution which is its palladium [protection], . . . a Government which watches over . . . the equal interdict [prohibition] against encroachments [trespasses] and compacts [agreements] between religion and the state" (Madison, 1816, James D. Richardson, Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1: 579). "The civil government . . . functions with complete success . . . by the total separation of the Church from the State" (Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432). "Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance" (Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101). "Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" (Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555). "Religion . . . enjoys in this country . . . complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government" (Andrew Jackson, 1832, Correspondence, 4:447). "They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point" Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835, Democracy in America, 1:308). "Perfect religious freedom [was] established in the United States, without any control exercised by the civil authority over spiritual concerns. In consequence of this, every denomination was . . . without . . . disadvantages arising from the connection of religion with secular policy" (Bird Wilson, 1839, Memoir of the Life of the Right Reverend William White, 88). "The divorce between Church and State ought to be absolute. It ought to be so absolute that no Church property anywhere, in any state, or in the nation, should be exempt from equal taxation; for if you exempt the property of any church organization, to that extent you impose a tax upon the whole community" (James A. Garfield, 1874, Congressional Record, 2: 5384). "Leave the matter of religion to the family, the altar, the church, and the private school, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate" (Ulysses S. Grant, 1875, Leo Pfeffer, Church, State, and Freedom, 1967, p. 337). ___------------------------------------------------------------------------- * OLX 2.1 TD * I'm not dead, I'm metabolically-challenged --- Maximus 2.02 * Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660) SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 SEEN-BY: 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 SEEN-BY: 213/213 218/2 801 890 900 901 907 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 SEEN-BY: 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666 322/739 323/107 SEEN-BY: 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 SEEN-BY: 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 45 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 SEEN-BY: 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1 @PATH: 690/660 396/1 218/907 801