(857) Fri 2 May 97 1:36 By: Christopher Baker To: All Re: Re: The Prayer Challenge - Part 2 - a rethink St: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:b3f0 22a20c80 @MSGID: 1:18/14 33697D51 @PID: GenMsg 5.00 [0002] @Date: 02 May 97 05:36:17 UTC * Copy of message posted via A_THEIST * Date: 02 May 97 01:30:55 * From: Christopher Baker * To: All * Message text was not edited! Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 11:49:01 -0700 From: AACHAT Organization: American Atheists Subject: [Atheist] More Prayer Testing Sender: owner-aachat@listserv.atheists.org Reply-To: aachat@listserv.atheists.org, AACHAT Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:14:46 -0400 (EDT) -- From: JimFOV@aol.com Test The Power Of Prayer - 2 Jim Strayer There seems to be some disagreement as to the feasibility of the broken arm experiment. Ethical and financial reasons were stated most although some thought that I might sneak in a prayer before the experiment, which would alter the results. Therefore after much thought and many hours of discussion with persons of scientific understanding, I have a new and more humane experiment to test the power of prayer. The only equipment necessary is a tree. To establish my hypothesis I used a Sycamore because they have such nice big leaves that are easy to observe. Some basic information is needed. Trees usually grow new leaves in the spring and loose them in the late fall. There are a few trees who's leaves last for two or three years, but it is better to use the others. It is one of the laws of nature that these leaves fall to the ground, decompose and form soil or recycled into the nature of things. Because this is a natural process the laws of nature will not need to be broken to do the prayer test. I selected a tree that had lost about half of it's leaves in mid November. It was obvious that it would drop the rest of them by mid December. This is a rather small tree and there were about one hundred remaining. I numbered four of the leaves, which had turned brown, with a black marking pen. I then had to select a god to pray to. I decided on Jesus. I prayed for leaf number one to fall in an hour, for leaf number two to fall in six hours, leaf number three to fall in twelve hours, and leaf number four to fall in twenty-four hours. I will admit that I guessed at these time factors. I figured that prayer must travel faster than the speed of light or it might take years to get to Jesus. I checked with people who pray and they all assured me that praying is instantaneous. They had no proof, but because there was complete agreement on their part, I went with it. It was brought to my attention right away that this event was insignificant and that Jesus would not care about a falling leaf. My response to that was that falling leaves become a very important part of the cycles of nature and that possibly it is a more important happening than an athletic event or finding a parking place. These get prayed about all the time. I also mentioned that if my prayers were answered it could lead to the saving of my soul because up until the time of the experiment I did not believe in any god and the concept of a soul. I have often seen a sign that says, "Jesus loves you." Here was his chance to prove it to me. I watched each leaf, continued praying and recorded the event on video tape. A brisk wind blew that afternoon and evening. At the end of the twenty-four hour period several leaves had fallen, but the four numbered leaves remained. As a mater of fact It took eight more days for them to fall. There were still thirteen leaves remaining. It therefore seemed to me that the selection of leaves had more to do with the outcome than did my praying. My hypothesis is: Praying does not effect falling leaves. How that this experiment has been done, it can be repeated by others. After hundreds and maybe even thousands of people have repeated this experiment we will have enough data to form a theory and my hypothesis will be proven correct or incorrect. Of course, the really interesting result of all of this is that we may then be able to extrapolate to athletic events and parking places. Other equally exciting experiments can be carried out. We could test weather praying, lottery praying, and passing tests praying. How about Baptist praying against Catholic praying and Jewish praying against Moslem praying. The result from all of this is that my hypothesis may turn out to be true and the other experiments may possibly show that prayer is no better than mathematical probabilities. The superstitious ritual preformed before political meetings, athletic events and banquets may be relegated to churches where myth is viewed as fact, and the separation of church and state will be seen as the only logical course for an informed and intelligent society. -30- - DB B2300sl/001027 @ Origin: Rights On!-Host/Moderator of A_THEIST-Edgewater_FL_USA (1:18/14) @PATH: 18/14 --- GenMsg [0002] (cbaker84@digital.net) * Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Edgewater_FL_USA (1:18/14) SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 105/72 106/2000 109/7 112/2715 114/262 SEEN-BY: 124/1 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 SEEN-BY: 202/1207 213/213 218/2 801 890 900 901 907 270/101 275/429 280/1 SEEN-BY: 280/169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 300/603 310/666 322/739 323/107 SEEN-BY: 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86 380/64 382/92 SEEN-BY: 387/5 388/1 396/1 45 690/660 730/2 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3612/41 SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1 3828/2 @PATH: 18/14 374/98 1000 3615/50 396/1 218/907 801 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (871) Tue 29 Apr 97 13:54 By: Christopher Baker To: All Re: Re: The Prayer Challenge St: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @EID:7e79 229d6ec0 @MSGID: 1:18/14 336635BC @PID: GenMsg 5.00 [0002] @Date: 29 Apr 97 17:54:04 UTC * Copy of message posted via A_THEIST * Date: 29 Apr 97 13:52:01 * From: Christopher Baker * To: All * Message text was not edited! [cross-posted from AACHAT] Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 02:51:44 -0700 From: AACHAT Organization: American Atheists Subject: [Atheist] Prayer test Sender: owner-aachat@listserv.atheists.org Reply-To: aachat@listserv.atheists.org, AACHAT [cross-posted with permission of author] AACHAT -- From: JimFOV@aol.com I have mentioned this to a few people who tell me that prayer works, but no takers yet. Test The Power Of Prayer By Jim Strayer There has been much ballyhoo about prayer helping the sick in hospitals. That type of statistical evidence has too many variables to be considered scientifically reliable. I propose an experiment using myself as an atheist who will not pray and a theist, as yet unnamed who will pray. We will be admitted into a hospital and put under anesthesia. While unconscious our left upper arm bone (humerus) will be broken. The break will be of a compound nature, that is, a bone must pierce the skin. While we are still unconscious doctors will treat my condition, setting the bone and repairing any damage to the muscle and nerves. The theist will be not receive any medical treatment, but will pray when he regains consciousness. He may get prayer assistance from friends, relatives, church leaders and the public in general. I will remain in the hospital as long as the doctors deem necessary and doctors will monitor my recovery. The theist will leave the hospital and doctors will monitor his recovery, but perform no medical treatments. He and others will pray for recovery. At the end of a six month period both of us will be examined by a team of atheists and theists to determine who has the best recovery. A standard set of exercise will be given to each of us before and after the six month period as a test of recovery. There is the possibility that someone might pray for my recovery and skew the results. Therefore the experiment should be conducted as if only the theist were injured. My part will be kept secret and will only be revealed at the end of the six month period. There is a possibility the someone might think that I would resort to praying. I would be willing to have the doctors administer some drug that would prevent this from happening. The importance of this experiment is obvious. It is repeatable and observable. It should satisfy the requirements of the scientific method. The medical part of the experiment could be kept constant, but any number of prayer types could be tested. If it were proven that prayer really works and the theists recovered as well or better that the atheist, we could then test to see which religion has the best results with prayer. Will the first willing theist please step forward. Cheers, Jim -30- - DB B2300sl/001027 @ Origin: Rights On!-Host/Moderator of A_THEIST-Edgewater_FL_USA (1:18/14) @PATH: 18/14 --- GenMsg [0002] (cbaker84@digital.net) * Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Edgewater_FL_USA (1:18/14) SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 105/72 106/2000 109/7 112/2715 114/262 SEEN-BY: 124/1 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 SEEN-BY: 202/1207 213/213 218/2 801 890 900 901 907 270/101 275/429 280/1 SEEN-BY: 280/169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 300/603 310/666 322/739 323/107 SEEN-BY: 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86 380/64 382/92 SEEN-BY: 387/5 388/1 396/1 45 690/660 730/2 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3612/41 SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1 3828/2 @PATH: 18/14 374/98 1000 3615/50 396/1 218/907 801