(223)   Wed 26 Nov 97 15:21     Rcvd: Fri 28 Nov 11:07
By: Curtis Johnson
To: Fredric Rice
Re: Jesus wasn't hung omn a cross [1/2]
St: Rcvd
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 >>> Part 1 of 2...

 -=> Quoting Fredric Rice to All <=-

 FR> To: Bruce Alderman

 FR> Nonsense. The Jesus wasn't a Roman citizen, Mike. He was Jewish.
 FR> The Christian mythologies specifically states that he was killed
 FR> and then hung in a tree -- just as the Jewish Toldoth states.

 ba> Please quote the Jewish Toldoth -and- the "Christian mythologies"
 ba> which "specifically states" that Jesus was "killed and then hung
 ba> in a tree".

        The _Toldoth_ is a strange book, though it is very
 entertaining.  It builds on the handful of references to a
 heretical magician named Jesus in the Talmud, and borrows
 in a very distorted way the New Testament Jesus.  It is rather
 clear, I think, that the Talmudic Jesus is cannot be the same
 person as the NT Jesus--for one thing, that Jesus is placed
 in the time of Queen Alexandra.  Oddly, so is the _Toldeth Jesu_
 Jesus.
        There is a passage in the TJ about the difficulty they
 had in disposing of Jesus, because while he still had the stolen
 Name of God by which he worked his magic, he laid a spell on
 all the trees but one by which he could not remain on them.
 No Romans about; the body of the blasphemer is afterwards
 stretched out on a log for public exhibition, per Jewish law.

 FR> For your education (which I'm sure you'll ignore:)

 FR> Acts 5:30      "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
 FR> Acts 10:39     "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
 FR> Acts 13:29     "they took him down from the tree"
 FR> 1 Peter 2:24   "who his own seld bare our sins in his
 FR> own body on the tree"
 FR> Galatians 3:13 "Christ... eing made a curse upon us...
 FR> Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

 FR> Under Rabbinic Law, criminals are to be stoned (John 8:3-11.)  The

        Only blasphemers.  A different form of capital
 punishment applied to adultresses, which makes the famous
 "Cast the first stone" story quite odd, unless the usual
 Biblical equation of following a different religion with
 adultery is applied.

 FR> 'Jesus' mythos was stoned to death and then hung on a tree -- which
 FR> is what the Christanic mythologies say.

 FR> The cross is a later addition which has been soundly debunked.

 ba> Only in your imagination.

 FR> No rational person still clings to the belief that the 'Jesus' mythos
 FR> was hung on the Roman cross.  It was a fiction which was added in the
 FR> year 367.  It is amazing that ignorants still cling to the myth.

        Oddly, both "Luke" and Paul also state that "Jesus" was
 crucified.
        There's several possible reasons for this muddle.
        I gather that "tree" was a euphemism for the instrument
 of crucifixion.  Making the two easier to equate is the fact
 that the Romans did not always bother with the cross-piece,
 but instead attached the victim to a simple upright pole.
 (In the aftermath of the battle of Teutenberger Wald, the
 Germans crucified Romans to actual trees; possibly the Romans
 may have also used actual trees from time to time?)  The
 NT Greek _stauros_ was used for both pole and what we think
 of as a cross.  A close reading of the Gospels shows that
 neither possibility is ruled out.  Fundies are strongly
 offended by the current Jehovah's Witness insistence that
 it was a simple upright pole; but in truth both seem to
 be victims of later dogma.
        The usage of "tree" would make an appeal to those
 Gentiles whose dying and resurrecting fertility Gods
 had died/hung on a tree.  The usage of "cross" would
 appeal to those who followed Plato and his quasi-mystical
 importance of the fact that the equinoctal circle and the
 plane of the planets intersect; this symbolism would also
 draw in or be influenced by the various other religions
 that laid strong symbolic importance on their various
 crosses (for instantance, the Egyptian/Isis cult _ankh_
 "cross of life").  These crosses did not have to resemble
 the cross-beamed instrument of crucifixion very much,
 though--swastikas were popular.
        Pre-Constantine Christian art and literary references
 make it clear that Christians were into cross symbolism
 long before the 367 date you mention.  Oddly, though, Jesus
 was not portrayed on a cross until much later.

 ba> Please name even one reputable scholar
 ba> who denies that Jesus was crucified.

 FR> So you can have me do _your_ work for you?  So you can ignore all of
 FR> the hurtful truth and claim you never saw it?  Just like all other
 FR> fundies without an iota of shame?

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