========
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Transcript: Jeff Jacobsen on KTAR (1 of 5)
From: tashback@primenet.com (Tashback)
Date: 3 Feb 1997 01:18:02 -0700

Jeff Jacobsen was a guest on a local talk radio show in Phoenix, Arizona,
January 30, 1997, to discuss the Lisa McPherson case and Scientology. I
found it a fascinating show. What follows is the complete transcript
(minus about 10 minutes, which I lost when one of the tapes ran out),
broken into five parts, of the three-hour program.

Bill Straus is the host.
_____
Bill Straus: And welcome to my little portion of your Thursday evening.
Tonight were going to get into a case of the death of a 36-year-old woman
in Clearwater, Florida. And what makes the case interesting -- the case is
by the way about a year old -- is that my guest was -- you were the first
or one of the first people to make the connection, in your mind, between
the death of Lisa McPherson and members of the Church of Scientology?

Jeff Jacobsen: Well, the Clearwater police had --

Straus: I should introduce you. Jeff Jacobsen is a gentleman that I have
talked to on the phone a number of times. I think we probably go back two
or three years. We have never gotten together to do a show, but I find
what he sends me or what he feeds me over the telephone always
interesting, and in this case, the death of Lisa McPherson, I was
extremely interested, and interested by the attention that its already
gotten from some national media also. Now, with that said, why dont you
just capsulize the situation for us?

Jacobsen: OK. The way the story came out essentially was I was getting
ready for the next picket. Were going to picket again in March in
Clearwater, Florida, the Church of Scientology, which we did last year. So
I was on the City of Clearwaters web page. And the police have a section
where theres three deaths that theyre investigating. Number three was
Lisa McPherson. I never heard of any of these people or anything, but I
noticed that 210 S. Ft. Harrison was her last address, and that is a
church property -- Church of Scientology property. I knew that address
because we picketed there before.

Straus: And I want to point out at this point, I invited the local
spokesperson for the Church of Scientology onto the show, and she
declined. Talked to her again, and reinvited her. She declined again.
Today I got a phone call from her, and she asked me to not go on with the
show. That piqued my interest in the subject even more, in all honesty.
So, with that said -- and I even reiterated to her at that time, as I have
over the air when Ive promod the show, I would love to have somebody
from the Church of Scientology on in case they feel that they want to
counter something Jeff says. And if we have any Scientologists listening,
and I am most certain that we do, particularly after a phone call I got
later this afternoon that Ill get into a little later, I would invite you
to call us if you find that, you know, if you find that you disagree with
something thats said. The number remains 277-KTAR as always here. Now.
210 South Harrison.

Jacobsen: South Fort Harrison.

Straus: South Fort Harrison.

Jacobsen: Yeah, the Fort Harrison Hotel, which is the largest building in
downtown Clearwater. The church owns that, and many other buildings in
downtown Clearwater. So I just posted about it onto our newsgroup, which
is called alt.religion.scientology on the Internet. Actually I was also
looking for another case regarding another person who was a church member,
and there was supposedly -- the church was trying to prevent the mother of
the children from going to the police with a child molestation case
involving a Scientologist. I was kind of looking for that on the police
page too, but instead I see this address.

Straus: Were going to have to get into your thing with Scientology at
some point, but right now I want to stick with Lisa McPherson.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Straus: And you and I just watched a tape of Inside Editions coverage of
this case.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Straus: And quite honestly, in such a short period of time, there was a
lot of information, and Ive also had an opportunity to review the
transcript that you sent me of the show. OK. Getting now down to the
specifics. Lisa McPherson was 36 years old. And this was December of a
year ago?

Jacobsen: Ninety-five.

Straus: Ninety-five.

Jacobsen: She died December 5, 1995. And thats the thing. I think the
reason the police put her case on their web page is because theyre sort
of stuck. Theyre looking for three -- at that time -- Scientologists, who
they want to interview, I guess. The names of those three people are on
that web page. But then, Lisas name. So then, I posted about it, I sent
-- I was starting to talk to some media in Tampa/Clearwater area because
of our picket coming up, and I sent just a bunch of stuff to Cheryl
Waldrop at the Tampa Tribune, and she picked up on the Lisa segment of
what I sent, which I didnt -- you know -- all I knew was just what was on
the Clearwater web page--

Straus: Just the address.

Jacobsen: Thats it. And she started to investigate, and then came out I
think December 15th with a front-page story about Lisas death. So thats
where the story started.

Straus: I believe I also read an editorial by her, or was it an editorial
that was quoting her possibly from the Tampa paper?

Jacobsen: Yeah, both the St. Pete Times and the Tampa paper have many
articles about Lisas case.

Straus: Theres so many things that I want to ask you, but I want to give
people the basic background of the death. Lisa McPherson was -- the reason
she went to the hospital initially was...?

Jacobsen: Well, let me give you, like, I can give you maybe two or three
minutes.

Straus: Thats what Im looking for.

Jacobsen: OK. Lisa was 18 when she joined the church. I dont know when,
but she moved to Clearwater, Florida, a few years before she died, I
guess, which is like the spiritual world headquarters of the church of
Scientology. She had a high-paying job there with a Scientologist
business, and she donated apparently a lot of her money to the church, was
very active in the church. November, or sometime in late '95, she called a
friend of hers that she grew up with, and the friend says she had stated
that Lisa was thinking, was planning to come home, or go back to Texas, in
other words, where shes from. And she couldnt talk about things on the
phone, but she had a lot to talk about. So then comes November 18th, and
Lisa had a minor car accident, which she apparently didnt really get
hurt, but she got out of her car and took all of her clothes off and was
walking down the sidewalk. So she was taken to the hospital by ambulance,
I guess. At the hospital, the doctor there wanted to have her
psychologically evaluated. But other Scientologists came to the hospital
and stated that Scientologists dont believe in psychiatry, so they wanted
to take her with them. They said they would take care of her 24 hours a
day, according to the hospital report. So she checked herself out and went
with those people to that 210 S. Ft. Harrison, the hotel, the church said
for rest and relaxation. This is November 18th. We really dont--

Straus: She had spent how long in the hospital?

Jacobsen: Part of that day. Just a few hours at most.

Straus: And it was clearly against the advice of the medical people that
were in attendance that she leave?

Jacobsen: They wanted her to be psychologically evaluated.  But the church
has a big thing against psychiatry. They consider psychiatry to be their,
probably their main enemy ... on earth. So now shes at the Ft. Harrison.
The only thing I know for sure -- or I think I know -- is that the
attorney Elliot Abelson stated that sometime between November 18th and her
death, she was hitting the walls with her fists in that hotel. So what was
going on, we dont know, but 17 days later, December 5th, some
Scientologists put her in a van and take her to a hospital. According to
Inside Edition, they passed four other emergency rooms to get her to a
hospital where there was a Scientologist doctor.

Straus: Well, and correct me if Im wrong. They drove 25 miles when an
emergency room was a quarter of a mile away?

Jacobsen: Thats what Inside Edition said. Yeah, you can look on a map and
see where Clearwater is and see Newport Richie straight north up the coast
is quite a distance -- for somebody thats dying -- to my mind. So she
died, according to the people who were taking her, she died just before
they get to the hospital. In the autopsy report, the next day, the
coroners report, they said she was severely dehydrated. The reason for
her death was bed rest and severe dehydration. She weighed 108 pounds, was
five foot nine tall. And she had bug bites. She had bruises and abrasions
on many parts of her body. And she was just pretty beat up, essentially.
So the question is, that makes this case kind of unusual partially, is
that the church claims that Lisa looked fine up to 24 hours before she was
taken to the hospital. No problem. And that she died from a severe staph
infection. And thats the cause of the bruises and everything, I guess.

Straus: And from what I read -- and again, I want to make sure I --
accuracy is important. Didnt the people that took her back to the
hospital also maintain that she had been conscious that day, in fact she
had even participated in a discussion of maybe going back to the hospital?

Jacobsen: Yeah, Elliot Abelson said on Inside Edition that she had
discussed which doctor she wanted to go to, which was this David Minkoff
in Newport Richie, who is a Scientologist. Now, theres a huge -- well,
you cant put the two together, theres a huge discrepancy between what
the church says happened and what the coroner and the police say what
happened. The church, again, says that 24 hours before she died, thats
when she got sick, severe staph infection killed her. The coroners
report, or the coroner, the medical examiner, says that she had gone a
minimum of five days without water, and possibly up to the whole time that
she was there for rest and relaxation at the hotel. That the bug bites
were cockroach bites most likely, whereas Abelson says they were mosquito
bites. So this huge discrepancy between the coroners report -- the
medical examiners opinion -- and the churchs definition of what really
happened.

Straus: Thats pretty much the nuts and bolts of the case. There are so
many angles to this, and I want to get into that a little more with Jeff,
and I also want to find out whats driving Jeff on this thing. And we
talked about that briefly, and we decided wed hold off, and Id get the
answer along with you. You should know: Elliot Abelson is counsel for the
Church of Scientology, and he did give me a call today. I returned his
phone call, we finally connected, and he voiced grave concerns over this
show and having Jeff on and I just -- quite honestly, its a judgment call
on my part. I find Jeff to be interesting, I find the case to be very
interesting, and I feel that Ive approached this extremely fairly all the
way through. Gave Elliot Abelson the phone number and told him that he is
more than welcome to call us tonight, and so we may hear from him before
the night is over.

This is Strauss place, this is KTAR. Talking with Jeff Jacobsen about
Lisa McPhersons death in Florida. And we will be right back.

<Break>

Straus: What happened to a 36-year-old woman in Clearwater, Florida, Lisa
McPherson? Thats pretty much what were talking about. Jeff Jacobsen is
my guest, and Jeff kind of -- I would describe Jeff as a -- well, youre
an anti-cult activist?

Jacobsen: Basically, yeah.

Straus: You think that Scientology is a cult.

Jacobsen: Yeah.

Straus: And what is driving you? I mean, youve been into this for a
number of years and spent a great deal of time at it. What got you going
in this direction, and -- You know, Im looking at you trying to decide,
well, what are his motives here?

Jacobsen: When I was in high school back in the early 70s, I joined a
religious group that I consider to be cultish now. I was in that from the
age of 16 to 22, and then I finally left because I felt that they were
hypocritical and not really what they claimed to be. After that, I went to
the University of Arizona, er, Arizona State, and finished my religious
studies degree. So Ive always been interested since I was 16 in religions
and cults, after I decided I had been in one, and gradually I came to meet
ex-Scientologists, read the material about them, and I gradually formed
the opinion that they were one of the more harmful groups out there. So I
started to  specialize in Scientology.

Straus: Harmful in what way? And I ask because I really am wary of
somebody who is wanting to limit or infringe upon anyones right to
exercise whatever religion they want. I think its one of the most crucial
freedoms we have.

Jacobsen: Because the church has policies to hurt people, actually. L. Ron
Hubbard founded Scientology -- he also wrote the book Dianetics, which is
where this all started. Theres a policy called the fair game policy,
which was written by Hubbard in 1967. The church later claimed that it was
revoked, but this is part of that: SP Order. SP means suppressive
person, by the way. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by
any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the
Scientologist. May be tricked, sued, or lied to or destroyed. Thats a
teaching of Hubbards. Now, Im a Christian, and if I found where Jesus
had written something like that, I would not be a Christian.

Straus: No, but thats what religion is ... you know, by definition, its
all different kinds of beliefs.

Jacobsen: But this is a policy that says you should hurt people. But
Hubbard said that. Heres another one. The church is known for its
litigation, for suing people quite a bit. Another quote from Hubbard in a
different book: The purpose of the suit, meaning lawsuit, is to harass
and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to
harass and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge
anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be
sufficient to cause his professional defeat. If possible, of course, ruin
him utterly. And this is Hubbard, and this is what he taught, his church,
and its written in stone, they put these words in their expensive vaults
so theyll be safe in case of a nuclear attack, and the church follows
these policies.

Straus: Well, Ive got to be honest. In my conversation with Mr. Abelson
this afternoon, he used the word libel twice. I would have had him on
the show without using the word libel, and I think anybody who listens
to this show knows Im speaking the truth there. Besides that, you know,
to have someone throw the word libel out to me in formal conversation is
to infer that I would be out to intentionally injure somebody or
something. And Ive got to tell you all, the purpose of this show is not
to do injury to the Church of Scientology or to the Clearwater police or
any group or anyone. It really isnt. The purpose of the show is Im
fascinated by the death of Lisa McPherson. I have to be very candid with
you. Im also very fascinated with the communication that Ive had
regarding tonights show. So you know what I know. Were all on the same
playing field.

Tell you what. Ginny, hang on the line. Rather than give you a short run
before the news, well get to you immediately thereafter. If youd like to
call and ask Jeff a question -- if youd like to call and counter anything
hes saying -- 277-5827. 277-KTAR.

<Break>

Straus:  Strauss Place at 9:36 and a half.  I have not, I dont think
that Ive known very many people, I know Ive known a couple of
Scientologists. I dont know much about it. I do know that whenever Ive
talked to anybody else -- a colleague in the media -- about doing a show
on it, they have told me to be very cautious, its more trouble than its
worth, I will have people giving me a hard time, Ill have legal threats,
one thing, another. Quite honestly, as far as Im aware, there no subjects
that are taboo to talk about on the radio, and Jeff Jacobsen, my guest,
interested me in the death of Lisa McPherson. I should make it clear,
there is -- the case is still being investigated by the Clearwater police.

Jacobsen: Correct.

Straus: There is no link to any member of the Church of Scientology or the
church itself, but through Jeffs recognition of an address on a web page,
with the Clearwater police looking for help in solving a suspicious death,
and thats what theyve termed it --

Jacobsen: Yes, they are looking for three Scientologists or
ex-Scientologists as investigative leads and they want to interview these
people, but they have apparently all three left the country, and I think
the church claims that theyve all three left the church, so the church
cannot help locate these people.

Straus: OK, weve got some callers, want to take some phone calls, and we
have stuff to talk about, but -- Ginny, thank you for your patience.

Ginny: Youre welcome.

Straus: Hello.

Ginny: Hi.

Straus: Hi.

Ginny: Well, first of all, Bill, weve talked on the phone a couple of
times in the past two or three weeks.

Straus: Oh, its Ginny!

[Ginny Leason is the local Scientology spokesperson mentioned above.]

Ginny: Yeah, this is Ginny.

Straus: Oh, it said Ginny, and I -- OK. Hi.

Ginny: Hi. Anyway, the first thing I wanted to say is that, you know, I
didnt want to go on against Jeff Jacobsen and basically be scrutinized or
anything else with myself or my religion. The disagreement that I have is
that he doesnt have the first-hand information on Lisa McPherson down in
Flag. He wasnt there. He doesnt have the first-hand information. Jeff
has been attacking the church for a number of years. Hes a hate-monger
and incites the hate against not just our religion but other religions on
the Internet. I dont see him doing anything out in the community, like in
respect of I went to Oklahoma City after the bombing and helped hundreds
of people and assisted the injured. I do food drives for the Salvation
Army. I dont see Jeff Jacobsen doing that. He couldnt say that he does
that. I work with the clergy who have had their churches burned. And what
Jeff has been doing is attacking a mainstream religion who is out in the
community and helping other people. And, you know, its a very
humanitarian thing to be doing.

Straus: But in all honesty -- and I would have hoped that you would have
come down here -- weve been on 39 minutes and 47 seconds. Jeff hasnt
done one word of hate-mongering. He really hasnt.

Ginny: Mm hm.

Straus: I mean, hes not calling for people to do anything. Hes not made
any calls to action whatsoever. And I dont know if what Jeff is
presenting me is all true, although he has substantiated a lot of what
hes saying on the air with pre-arranging to have materials in my hand
that I could read. I did find the Inside Edition clip -- 10 minutes is not
a big deal -- I found it really interesting. I mean, the case is
interesting.

Ginny: Mm hm.

Jacobsen: Does Elliot Abelson have first-hand knowledge of Lisa McPherson?

Ginny: He is an attorney that has a lot more correct and on-spot
information than you would because he is an attorney. You would have to
ask him that.

Jacobsen: Your argument against me was that I dont have first-hand
information, but it seems to me Elliot Abelson does not have first-hand
information either. Did he see, for instance, Lisa McPherson hitting the
walls if he said she did?

Ginny: You, again, Jeff, you would have to ask the attorney. I dont know.
Its not a situation for here at the, you know, here in Arizona. Its not
our situation here. The attorneys, as far as I know, are the ones who are
handling that. And Im not going to debate any of this with you because
its not my place. Its not -- it doesnt have anything to do with the
Church of Scientology of Arizona.

Jacobsen: OK. So. Hm. But you said, for instance, that you help churches
that have been burned?

Ginny: Mm hm.

Jacobsen: What did you have to do with that that made you interested in that?

Ginny: Well, last year I went to a, when one of the first churches burned
down in Phoenix, there was a big meeting with a number of government
groups down in Phoenix that I attended. And next month were going to be
assisting in helping to rebuild one of the burned churches.

Jacobsen: What I meant--

Ginny: So Jeff, are you doing that?

Jacobsen: Im asking what got you interested--

Ginny: Are you out in the community actually doing community service with
the community? I dont think so.

Jacobsen: Well, maybe you dont know me very well then. Its your--

Ginny: So what have you done in the community?

Jacobsen: This story isnt about me, Im sorry. I mean, you know, if Bill
wants to have an hour where we talk about Jeff Jacobsen, thats fine. The
--

Ginny: But Im just interested. No, seriously, Im just interested. What
do you do in the community? Then I wouldnt have that argument.

Jacobsen: I get calls, probably several times per month, from people who
ask me questions about different cults. Son or daughter gets in a
religious group, and they want to know whats going on, why did my son
change so much. I field calls like that regularly and consistently.

Straus: Ginny, let me ask you this.

Ginny: Mm hm?

Straus: Jeff believes Scientology fits his definition of a cult. You
obviously do not.

Ginny: No.

Straus: Did you hear what he said? I would love to hear the response.
Because like I say, I dont know much about the Church of Scientology.

Ginny: Mm hm. Well, Ive been in the Church of Scientology for seven
years. And it has done nothing but very good things for myself, my family,
my friends. I was at one point in my life a widow when I was in my
twenties. And Scientology has done nothing but good things for my life.
And its a good feeling to go out into the community and help other
people.

Jacobsen: It is. Im not against the church per se. I dont mind it being
a religion out there. I dont believe what they teach, but thats fine.
And Im not saying that the church doesnt help some people. Im saying
that the church hurts some people, and its a policy of the church to hurt
some people. Thats -- the quote I said before, I want to know what you
think about that. Hubbard said the purpose of a lawsuit is to harass and
discourage rather than to win. Do you think thats a proper use of our
court system?

Ginny: I actually am not familiar with that specific policy.

Jacobsen: Well, now you know.

Ginny: I will have to read it or you could send it to me.

Straus: Let me ask you this, because it seems to be, and this -- Its in
reference to Lisa McPherson, but it could be a general question. One of
the points thats disputed is -- Jeff is among those that believe that she
was about to separate from the Church of Scientology. Her mother said
something to that effect. One of her best friends is reported to have
talked to her shortly before this car accident and this whole situation.
Elliot Abelson says thats not even close to true, she was as close to the
church when she died as she was at any other time. I would ask you: If
somebody is in the Church of Scientology and wants to leave, have you ever
heard of it being a problem?

Ginny: No.

Straus: Have you ever heard of anyone exerting any kind of force against
someones will to delay them from leaving?

Ginny: No. Not at all. If anyone wants to leave the church, they can leave
the church at any time of their own free will.

Jacobsen: Theres particular people -- Roxanne Friend was a woman who
stated on the Sally Jesse Raphael show that she was kept against her will
for two weeks in an RV by Scientologists because she wanted to leave the
church. She sued the church, and the church settled out of court with her.
Dennis Erlich stated -- he was a high-ranking member of the church in
Clearwater, back in, I think, the late 70s -- stated that he was held in
the basement under lock and key of the Ft. Harrison Hotel, the same
building where Lisa was, for 10 days. Theres other people. Lawrence
Wollersheim successfully sued the church for ruining him psychologically
and an attempt to ruin him financially. That went all the way to the
Supreme Court twice and hes won that.

Straus: Are you familiar with any of those?

Ginny: Not real familiar. I know of them, but Im not the expert to ask on
those.

Straus: Well, Ill tell you what. Because I invited you -- often and
sincerely --youre welcome to stay on the phone with us. Ive got to take
a break right now, but I would love for you to stay on the phone, and the
three of us will take questions for a while.

Ginny: OK.

Straus: Youre cool with that?

Ginny: Yeah.

Straus: OK. Tremendous. Let me do this. Put Ginny on hold. Now we have
Ginny -- Leason, I believe, is her last name. If I got that wrong, well
correct it when we come back. Jeff Jacobsen. Im Straus, this is my place.
Yes, I know you like to be identified. Ed King Cole is our technical
director, and were coming right back.

<Break>
