                 Transcription of interview on Radio 4 PM.
                 ----------------------------------------
                                  12.9.90


Studio."...Children  from  Rochdale  who are  involved  in  allegations  of
ritualistic child abuse. The children were made wards of court after claims
that  they  had been subjected to emotional and  sometimes  physical  abuse
during  whats  been loosley termed "satanic" rituals.  Five  children  have
since  been returned to their parents.  Meanwhile the director of  S.S.  in
nearby  Manchester confirmed today that 13 children there have  been  taken
into care since late last year in connection of similar allegations, though
there  is no direct link with the Rochdale  investigation.  P.A.I.N.  claim
that recommendations in the Buttler-Shloss inquiry into events in Cleavland
wernt  followed in Rochdale,  their chairman,  David  Monk,  outlined   his
anxieties..

  David Monk(PAIN)"it's clearly shown that Cleavland was not a one  off.  I
think  following  Cleavland the Dept of health issued a  guidance  document
which  is  called  "working  together" and  whats  happend  is  some  local
authorities have incorporated those recommenations into their policies, but
other authorities have virtually ignored  them."

Studio  "Where  do  you  say  Rochdale  did'nt  follow  the  Buttler/shloss
recommendations?"

D.M.  "..Well  I think there was some fundamental principals  inshrined  in
those recommendations,  one of which was that parents should be involved in
case conferences. And I understand that in Rochdale they were not notified,
either verbally or in writing, or given the right to attend. As a result of
that they were,  they did'nt infact have their basic human rights of   hear
the allegations and be able to make reply to those allegation,  they did'nt
have those met.  Secondly,ermm,  we are concerned about the length of  time
that seems to have been taken over the investigaive interviews,  ermm,  and
in fact after six months of the children removed from their parents and not
having access to their parents some of those investigative assessements are
still taking place,  and we would suggest there need to be a time limit  on
that."

Studio." What do you want this enquiry to establish?"

D.M.  "I think that one of the things we would like from the enquiry is  to
suggest  that  some of these guidlines that the dept of  health  have  been
laying  down  need to have some power behind them and perhapes need  to  be
statutory. "

Studio  "Some  of the details of what is alleged to have happend  to  these
children  are  quite  horrific  is'nt it of the  utmost  concern  that  the
children  should  be  protected from parents who may be  exposing  them  to
allsorts of..very strange things. Is'nt that the primary concern of S.S.?"

D.M." That must be the primary concern,  but there is a danger that if  you
remove  children  for  six months,  and not allow  them  accsess  to  their
parents,  and they turn out to have been normal loving parents,  the  abuse
that you will have done to that child could be as great or greater than the
abuse you are trying to protect them from.

Studio "David Monk,  chairman of PAIN. Well Bob Lewis is honorary secretary
of the association of directors of social services,  and he's taken a close
interest in the case. I asked him if he would welcome an official enquiry."




Bob Lewis "I think the call is very premature. First of all as I understand
it  the S.S.  committee in Rochdale are to recieve a report  tomorrow,  and
they will have to obviously will have to make a decision as to wether  they
are  satisfied  with  the  way in which their  staff  have  delt  with  the
investigation so far.  Secondly I would remind you as against in  Cleavland
the  local authority approching magistrates and obtaining place  of  safety
orders,  and  interim  care  orders,  which  are  more  difficult,  if  not
immpossible to challenge.  In Rochdales case they did go to the high court,
they wardship initialy only ran for 21 days and they had to go back to  the
high  court  with fer,,,  with the evidence that gave them concern  and  to
prove to the judge that they had grounds for their concern.  And of  course
in  a  wardship  case  it is possible for a  parent  or  another  party  to
challenge the wardship ruling at any time."

Studio "Bob Lewis"


                   Transcription of Radio 4 news report
                   
                      on the Rochdale Satanic abuse.
                      

                        Six O'clock news. 12.9.90.
                        

Studio voice."Children have been take into care, as a result inquiries into
alleged  ritualistic abuse.  Manchester City council say that  13  children
have  been  removed from their parents over a period of nearly  12  months,
this is in addition to the 20 children who have been made wards of court in
the  Rochdale  area  following  a  separate  investigation  also  involving
alleged  ritualistic child abuse.  There have been calls for  a  government
inquiry into the way that Rochdale council has handled that  investigation,
Kevin Bouquet reports.."

K.B. "The investigation in Manchester has been running since late last year
and  is  thought  to involve children from  four  different  families,  the
director  for  social services for Manchester council  said  the  childrens
future  is  due  to be decided shortly in the high  court,  and  he  was'nt
prepared  to   comment on the case before  then.  However  it's  understood
there's  no conncetion between the Manchester investigation and  the  other
inquiry  into allegations of ritualistic child abuse taking place 12  miles
away in Rochdale,  where 20 children made wards of court.  Rochdale council
was  criticized today by a charity,  Parents Against  Injustice(PAIN),  who
claim they have failed to put into effect lessons learned in the  Cleavland
crisis.  The charity were critcal of the councils failure to allow  parents
accsess  to  15 children still been held in care,  thay have  asked  for  a
government inquiry,  but this has been ruled out by the health dept.  In  a
statement issued earlier this  week, Rochdale S.S. director said comparison
with  Cleavland were inappropriate as the two inquiries  involve  different
types of allegation."

             Transcription of the end of BBC radio Shropshire
             

                          Morning news reports.
                          

                             12.9.90. 12.30pm
                             

Male voice."...Christians groups have put such claims about deliberatly."

Womans  voice." They see Satan at work on halloween and all sorts of  other
occasions,  ermmm,  their  whole outlook is defined in terms of Satan  very
often,  and  a  lot of these stories do in fact come from there  there  are
books that are put out by fundamentalist Christian press which tell you how
to rape your virgin on the alter in six easy lessons, and give instructions
as  to  how  to be a proper Satanist,  it's much easyer to  find  out  from
certain groups of evangelical christians how to be a Satanist and do  nasty
things than it is from any Satanist group."

Male Voice:"Observers like Dr Barker also point out that children are quite
capable  of  making  up  bizarre tales of  abuse  if  suggestion  are  made
beforehand  and  leading questions are asked.  But the NSPPC say  such   an
approach is to cynical,  in a prepared statement,  they've refused to  give
any interviews to the press they said this..".

NSPCC STATEMENT:"In cases of suspected abuse the childs safty and  wellfare
must always be paramount,  it's essential that children who come forward to
talk  about  been  abused  should  be  taken  seriously,  and  listened  to
carefully,  it's  very  rare that a small child would have the  ability  to
invent the type of acts that typify abuse cases."

Male  Voice:"  Thats  a veiw indorsed by those who have  come  into  direct
contact with children who have told such stories.  Social worker(Could  not
make out his name.)is the national development consultant for child  sexual
abuse work at the National Childrens Home (NCH),which is one of the largest
childcare  charities  in  Britain.  He  says he's seen  upto  20  cases  of
ritualistic abuse in the past two years, and he's certian that none of them
were fabricated.

NCH:"The  things that make us,  ermmm,  pay attention to what children  are
saying,  and  certainly  take very seriously what they are  saying  is  the
incredible fear,  ermmm,  fear of of very ordinary things,  or even fear of
things  that normal children would actually be quite  pleased  about,  like
Easter, like Christmas, or farther christmas, ermm, we had a child who went
shopping  became absolutely hysterical in the store,  and it was very  very
difficult  to  find  out what it wa that made her  so  terrified,  and  the
children  who are in real terrorin a way that we have very rarely  seen  in
children  who  come into our care,  and have have had  abusive  experiences
themselves."

Studio voice" But Mr Vandendonk does agree with sceptics like Dr Barker  on
one  point,  they  say  the people who carry-out these  practices  are  not
SATANISTS,  in  that  they  don't  worship  the  devil  or  practice  black
magic.They are simply perverts,  who use satanisim and rituals to help them
achieve there aims."

NCH"  What I believe these rings to be about is a way of abusing  children,
and the ritual is used to scare children into silence,  and also in a sense
to make sure that when they do tell their story it is so  unblieveable,ermm
that nobody,  in their right mind almost,  decide the children are  telling
the  truth.  An example of this is a child who,  a two year  old,  who  was
talking about been abused by a lion. It makes absolutely no sense to people
until,  ermm,  a nine or ten year old  child said yes that happend,  but  I
knew it was not a real lion because it had zips around it's paws. So we now
know  that the child was likely to have been abused by a person dressed  up
as a lion."

                 Transcription of news item on radio 4's
                 
                               World At One
                               

                                14.09.90ev
                                


Studio  link:   "Children  said to have faced ritualistic abuse  will  not
immediately be returned to their parents.  This is despite the decision of
the chief constable of greater Manchester,  Mr James Anderton, not to bring
criminal  charges  against  the   parents  of  17  children  following   an
investigation into alleged occult practices,  from Manchester Kevin Bouquet
reports..."

K.B:  "12  of  the children are still in council  care,  and  following  Mr
Andertons  decision  there  have  been  calls  for  them  to  be   returned
immediately to their parents.  But Rochdale director of social services, Mr
Gordon  Littlemore,  said  it  would be for the high court  to  decide  the
childrens  future,  taking  into  account the  overall  wellfare  and  best
interests of each child. The council point out that since the enquiry began
the  high  court judge has confirmed on more than a  dozen  occasions  that
children  should remain wards of court.  they said it's possible the  judge
might continue to hold that view irrespetive of the poilce decision not  to
bring  charges against the parents.  The council social services  committee
are due to descuss the case at a meeting later today."


ENDS.
