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        - ParaNet Pi Exclusive : The Mickus/Fenwick Interview -
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THE CRUCIBLE BBS <ParaNet Pi> 416-244-9999 - 24Hrs - 12/24/96 - 44 Megs
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       On November 6th/88, Lawrence (Larry) Fenwick, noted Canadian
       UFOlogist was interviewed for ParaNet on Sunday afternoon at 
       the Toronto residence of ParaNet Pi Sysop, Tom Mickus. He had
       previously agreed to this interview, with the full knowledge
       that it was being taped, and that the transcript would be
       released for distribution on the North American ParaNet System.

       He spoke for approximately 4 hours, of which approximately
       170 minutes were taped. During that time Larry spoke frankly
       and in some depth on a number of issues and events current
       to UFOlogy. The interview was done at my request, and Larry
       graciously assented to agree to the exchange, without any
       strings attached. Additionally, no money was exchanged.
       Although an interview, much the dialogue is in conversational
       style, appropriate for the informal setting which we were in.

       Regarding the content you are about to read, Larry neither
       makes the claim that this is original information, or
       that he knows all of it. But as you will see, he does have
       some pieces of the puzzle, in my estimation. Before the
       interview, I gave him every right to protect his sources,
       as well as have certain portions of the interview "off
       the record". While he has withheld some names, none of
       the substance of what we discussed was held back. Its
       all here for you to examine and evaluate.

       As I've mentioned, approximately 170 mins of our exchange
       was suppposed to have been on tape. However, after the
       interview, and to my extreme chagrin, I soon realized that
       the first 45 mins of the tape was almost blank, and the A-B,
       C-D order of the 4 sides seems to be haphazard. I am puzzled
       as to what happened, but at this point blame the recording
       device for screwing up...and of course also blame myself for
       not ensuring the integrity of the recording device, although
       the process was monitored throughout...and I am genuinely
       perplexed as to how this had happened. What I have therefore
       done, is to paraphrase the dialogue as much as possible, in
       order to bring out the 'highlights' of what we discussed in
       the first 45 mins. About one third of that had contained an
       in-depth bio of interviewee Larry Fenwick. Perhaps on a
       subsequent occasion, Larry can recount some of the
       information which we covered, a good portion which included
       commentary on the two recent TV productions, namely that of
       "UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - the Gulf Breeze segment", and of
       course "UFO-Coverup LIVE". For the time being, to the best
       of my recollection, some of what Larry brought up will be
       included in an appendix at the end of the formal transcript.

       One last note...this entire effort on my own part has
       consumed almost exclusively 4 days of my life. The transcibing
       process took close to 40 Hours, using simple tape recorders.
       Every effort has been made to insure the integrity of the
       dialogue of the part of Larry Fenwick. I can confidently say
       that I have reproduced accurately 99% of what Larry Fenwick
       said in the 125 mins of taped dialogue which was intact.
       The 40 Hours of time I think reflects this. My own dialogue,
       sparse as it is, is about 90% accurate. In some areas I have
       clarified my questions.

       Throughout, you will notice the use of square brackets [ ],
       these are added in by myself in areas that required some
       clarification...especially when certain mannerisms, inflection
       of speech, pause in speech etc., didn't "translate" into
       the written word sufficiently. Whereever you find words
       capitalized, that will indicate a word strongly emphasized,
       and indeed I have added this clarification in most of the
       instances.

       Lastly, although you may find some hints as to my interests
       and positions on various aspects of the UFO issue, I have
       not as yet come out in favour of, or against, most of what
       Larry Fenwick has said. For me, in part, the jury is still
       out. Having said that, I cannot help feel that much of what
       Larry Fenwick has enuciated here is quite significant. There
       should be enough information here for sleuthing armchair
       UFOlogists to get involved in, and to track down. The information
       conspiracy must end...the people must know. If what Larry and
       others say is true, even a part of it...then we don't have
       much time. In closing, I encourage you to spread the transcript
       of this file onto other Bulletin Board Systems. If it acts as
       a catalyst for action...pro or con...then it will have served
       its purpose.

                            -Tom Mickus  11/10/88


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[The transcript begins at the near the end of side 1...]






<Fenwick> "...on the air, and they went up and interviewed Robert
          Sufferin [sp?], and they got him on camera, and he was
          interviewed on Channel 9 [CFTO Toronto], on the local
          news. ...well there was a deluge of phone calls, and
          people started descending en masse, on Robert Sufferin's
          property. About 2,000 - 3,000 people descended onto his
          property. They were there day and night, from all over
          southern Ontario."

 <Mickus> "And what year was this?"

<Fenwick> "1975. This was in October of '75. The agreement between
          the aliens and the American gov't, [with] the intelligence
          agencies, was made in June of that year."

 <Mickus> "June of '75..."

<Fenwick> "That's right. Thats when the agreement was..., for the
          exchange of technology was made. One month to the date,
          after that 'event' occurred to Robert Sufferin, he got
          a telephone call from Falconbridge Air Force Base from
          a lieutenant, who asked if he and his wife would be
          willing to undergo psychological tests. A battery of tests.
          He agreed, so did his wife. They took him...I don't know
          when this occurred, fairly soon after that,...nor do I
          know where the tests were administered. I would assume
          somewhere in southern Ontario. They gave him tests, and
          so on. And a month later..."


                            [ tape change ]


<Fenwick> "...now the information that we found out, and that I
          just described, was as a result of an interview that
          Harry and Joe and I did with Robert Sufferin on his
          property. We weren't allowed to make to make notes,
          until we got into our car. No tape-recorders, no
          photographs. He talked extensively, for several hours,
          about UFOs in general, about various topics. This was
          the 2nd of two interviews done with him. I wasn't
          present at the first one..., there was a gentlemen by
          the name of Wayne Forsyth who was doing a documentary
          for public schools or high schools on UFOs, who was
          with Harry and Joe the first time he was interviewed,
          and his wife was also there. Now we only talked with
          Robert when I was there. He said...he told us about
          this incident [UFO hovering over his barn, and another
          one which landed for 'repairs' in the adjacent field,
          then both flew off after a short time...neighbor
          phoned Sufferin to tell him that he thought his barn
          was on fire, which it wasn't...the UFO hovering above
          was extremely bright and luminouscent], and he told
          us about the telephone call from Falconbridge Air
          Force Base, and about the incident where three men
          showed up in full military uniform on Dec.7th, 1975.

          They came in an O.P.P. [Ontario Provincial Police]
          cruiser, unmarked...an unmarked cruiser, driven by
          the head of the detachment of the O.P.P. Bracebridge,
          who has since denied that he was ever there, to one
          of our members [CUFORN] who was his best friend. In
          other words, he lied to his best friend. He said,
          'that no cruiser was ever sent up there...impossible.'
          The three men who visited him [Sufferin], one was the
          lieutenant from Falconbridge Air Force Base, the
          other two were from the United States. One from the
          Air Force Office of Special Investigations, AFOSI, and
          the other officer was from the Office of Naval
          Intelligence. As you know, OSI and the ONI are part of
          the Project Aquarius unit. They are all linked together,
          as you saw in the Oct. 14 television show. They brought
          with them a portfolio...a book...whether it was the
          'yellow book' written by the alien or not, I don't know.
          It was quite thick he said, hundreds of pages long."

 <Mickus> "The yellow book goes back to..."

<Fenwick> "That was written by an alien, for the Americans."

 <Mickus> "And when did they originally get that?"

<Fenwick> "They got that in 1975, in June of '75, under the agreement.
          The alien actually wrote it out...and it was used.
          ...Now what Robert was shown was a series of photographs,
          full colour, dating back to WW II...close-up photographs
          in broad daylight of UFOs...which were POSED [his emphasis]
          In other words, the aliens stopped the craft, and allowed
          pictures to be taken. And these were all gun-camera
          photographs, taken from jet aircraft...from various aircraft.
          A pile of them...a pile of them. And they were all 8 1/2
          by 10 glossies. He was shown these photographs. He was also
          told several things. They told him that when the incident
          occurred...right to the minute. He had not told his
          wife or his sister that he had noticed the exact time of
          this landing, or landings we should say, on his property.
          They told him why the landings occurred...what happened.
          There was a landing for repairs to one of the craft. The
          other one hovered over the barn...the one in the field
          had some problems...mechanical problems. It took off,
          finally it got out of there. They told him this, and he
          didn't know why [they were telling him]. And they
          apologized for the landing on his property, they told
          him why the UFOs are here on this planet...what they
          represent, and where they are from. They also told him
          that they knew of the previous two sightings he had had
          with his brother-in-law on several nights prior to that
          incident. They had been on his property and been looking
          out the window, and a couple of over-flights had occurred
          of UFOs. He hadn't told a soul about that, not even his
          wife, only his brother-in-law had known. So there is no
          way that they could have known, unless they were in contact
          with the aliens when it happened. They said that they had
          tracked these UFOs on radar..., at Air Force bases its done
          all the time, except that the 'unknowns' are never
          publicized. They always say when someone calls in and says,
          'We have a report of a UFO...did you track anything on your
          radio at Downsview Air Force Base or Falconbridge or
          Toronto International Airport...or ANY airport in the
          Western world?" Their orders are [to say] 'No.' Deny, deny
          deny...right down the line. And we surmised this ourselves
          although this was confirmed.

          The interview proceeded thusly, as Roberts said. They gave
          him a telephone number to call...and unlisted, unpublished
          telephone number to call in case there were any further
          incidents on his property. And they said that there had
          been an agreement...an agreement made with the aliens
          between the American government and the aliens. And they
          told him a few things about a long range program...or
          plan, a master plan they called it, which was underway.
          Now that's all that Robert Sufferin told us in 2 hours.
          We talked about things other than UFOlogy for most of the
          time. As we left the property...we were about 35-40 feet
          away from Bob, and he called out to us. This was in
          daytime, and we were going back to our car. He called out
          to us, [and] he made this statement...and we wrote it
          down in the car, 'What was the cause of WW II?'
          He had been told..., the classified information about the
          programming of Hitler..to cause WW II. And we did an
          article about the case, with the exception of that statement.
          As we thought it didn't fit in.

          And in 1982 we found out the information..which I have just
          told you. We are way ahead of the game as far as that TV
          show is concerned [UFO-Coverup LIVE]. We know a little about
          what was mentioned by Condor and Falcon, plus more. At
          that point in 1982 we found this information out. This was
          7 years after the Sufferin incident. We didn't interview
          Robert Sufferin until 1978 by the way. He had remembered
          what had occurred in 1975, a few years earlier. This is in
          the summer of '78. So...we had made the notes, and in 1982
          we had heard this information. In 1983 I was looking
          through some old files, and I came across the Sufferin
          incident...and we had written up an article on it [previously]
          in a small journal that Harry Tokarz had churned out on his
          own. It ran about 4 issues, it was called "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
          and he had mentioned this in an article. And I looked at
          the notes, and see in the margin there, "What was the
          cause of WW II", which I had written down in the margin.
          And I wrote down below that, 'What has this got to do with
          UFOs?'. At that time we didn't know. And later on we found
          out."

          "Bill Moore was in touch with Robert Sufferin by phone, in
          our presence. He phoned him. We gave him the phone number."

 <Mickus> "In 1982?"

<Fenwick> "No...actually this was in 1981. He was here in Toronto, and
          he called Bob up in Utterson, Ontario, where Bob lived at
          the time. Bob still owns the property, but we don't know
          where he lives now, he's moved around a bit. So Bill Moore
          talked to him on the phone...we didn't hear what Bob said
          on the other end of the line, but Bill said that he
          confirmed what I suspected. Bill had heard a little bit
          in 1980. He got the documents in 1982 on Aquarius and this
          sort of thing...MJ-12. But he had heard a little bit. The
          agreement was mentioned. I know that Bill mentioned the
          agreement on the phone..., he knew about that. How?, I
          don't know. But that was the clue. Now I asked Bill..."

 <Mickus> "The world war II thing?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. That programming had been done."

 <Mickus> "Just to clarify...did someone ask him this question?"

<Fenwick> "No...this was separate [from the interview]. As we were
          leaving, he just blurted that out. Robert Sufferin just
          blurted it out."

 <Mickus> "So he just said it to you [unsolicited]?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, out loud. He yelled it out after us as we were
          walking back toward our car."

 <Mickus> "And that was it?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, that was all. We didn't ask him. What the hells he
          talking about [they said to each other]. We just walked
          on to the car...made a note of it,...I wrote down right
          behind the note, 'What has this got to do with UFOs?'
          We couldn't see any connection at all at that time. And
          it was only in 1983 that I happened to come across the
          statement that I had written out in the rough notes for
          that article which was done for that "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
          magazine. My goodness, that was it. The year before we
          had found out about the connection. In '83 I saw that
          little note, and I said, 'My God...he was told the truth'.

          And later on...in 1982 there was this symposium...the
          MUFON symposium in Toronto at the Westbury Hotel. I
          talked to Bill Moore privately at that point. He was
          one of the speakers there...and I helped run the
          convention a little bit, and I said to Bill, 'You know
          the Robert Sufferin case?" He said [Moore], "Yeah, I
          remember that." [Fenwick] Because he had read the whole
          article, and so on; and I had told him what had transpired
          and so on, and he was quite interested in that. And I
          said to him, '...when those three military officers
          talked to Sufferin, they really gave him everything on
          this Project Aquarius, it seems to me.' Then I said to
          Bill, 'Do you think that this has happened prior to...a
          month or two prior to somebody else maybe?' [making
          reference to the 1975 Sufferin incident] And he said,
          'Yeah, in the United States it happened twice, between
          June and October' [1975]. Two other people were told
          in the United States the same information was given to
          them."

 <Mickus> "In 1975?"

<Fenwick> "In '75 yes, just after that."

 <Mickus> "So those two would have been before the agreement [U.S.-
          EBE agreement] then, right?"

<Fenwick> "No, the agreement was in June of 1975. The Robert
          Sufferin case occurred on October 7th. Somewhere between
          June and October of '75, two other close encounters
          occurred in the United States in which aliens had
          nearly been killed...by a car or whatever, I don't
          know how. But Bill wouldn't go into detail on that. I
          questioned him, but he refused to go into any detail
          on that. He knew about it...through Condor and Falcon.
          And it was a test of the psychological reactions of
          people to the fact that we are the ETs [in reference to
          earlier statements by Fenwick as to our alien heritage]
          ...this is not our home planet."

 <Mickus> "So that was the reason for spilling the beans to these
          three, relatively simple folk?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, thats right. And there's something else also...
          When Tracy Torme visited Toronto, he worked for CTV
          [Canadian Television Network], he was a script-writer
          for them; he arranged in advance, through Bill Moore, to
          visit us...in my apartment in fact. And he talked a little
          bit about what he had heard. Later on he told us all that
          I have told you...through Bill. He got it through Bill
          Moore. We asked him what the classified information would
          mean to the human race. What areas of the human race...of
          human endeavour or aspects of human interest [that] would
          be most affected if ALL the information about Project
          Aquarius came out in the open. And he unhesitatingly said,
          'Religion.' He said that there would be mass suicides,
          those who were extremely religious among the Christian
          community would commit suicide. And he said, anthropology,
          ..Science would be heavily affected by it. Anthropology,
          History..., you take just WW II [for example]. If the
          historians knew that...and they are not on a need to know
          basis, they are not going to be told unless the entire
          world knows. This would create one of the biggest upheavals
          in all the universities, and all the history teachers in
          the world, and professors, would really be astounded if
          they knew that that was fact. And he said that a lot people
          wouldn't believe it if it were told to the public. There
          would be some panic, there would be suicides. I said, 'well
          maybe there wouldn't be that many', but he said [Torme]
          'Yes, there would be a fair number...in the millions'.
          But there are billions of people in the world, so that
          percentage wise its not a lot. But, 'This is why,' he
          said [speaking again of Torme] 'the information is not
          being told to the public. Because it would affect people
          too adversely.'"

 <Mickus> "The War-of-the-Worlds syndrome?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, that's right. That is their mental attitude...the
          people in Project Aquarius who don't want the information
          released,...not [the attitude] of the 10 people who have
          talked [Condor & Falcon being 2 of the 10] out of the 24.
          There are 24 people in Aquarius, total. 10 of the 24 have
          talked. The other 14 don't want the information released
          because they have that attitude...War-of-the-World's
          thing...mass panic and so on. And I think that in the
          atomic age that we live in, we're passed that stage...if
          you can learn to live with the Bomb...and not worry that
          much outwardly...maybe inwardly I guess. This generation
          is used to that threat hanging over them. If they heard
          this information, it wouldn't upset this generation, the
          present generation as much. And this attitude of the
          younger generatiomn...of not being upset too much about
          it is why those people have talked, why the rebels have
          talked." By the way, the rebels are Vietnam veterans."

 <Mickus> "All 10 of them?"

<Fenwick> "All of them. They're all Nam veterans."

 <Mickus> "And what is the range of rankings, and their ages?"

<Fenwick> "From Colonel up to..., well one of them is a 2-star
          General. I don't know any names. I know Condor is a
          black man by the way. They were in Nam, and they saw
          their own officers kill their own men under the
          influence of drugs. And they decided that whatever they
          did in peacetime, somehow they would get back at the
          American government. They all...these happened by
          coincidence, or not,...to all get involved in the UFO
          phenomenon. And these people in Aquarius are full-time
          on it. And they decided..., they got together...over a
          period of time, very clandestinely,...and word went
          from one to another, [in effect agreeing that they]
          '...would approach someone neutral in the UFO field,
          someone who is not affiliated with any major
          organizations, someone who is reliable...' And they
          picked on Bill Moore. And he got a telephone call
          from one of them, and they arranged to meet...I think
          it was at a 'McDonalds' in fact...in Phoenix if I'm
          not mistaken. Bill mentioned this."

          "There's a lot of information that we have gotten.
          Now, Tracy Torme told us that he had heard this from
          Bill Moore, and Bill was under sedation for back
          trouble. Bill started talking...and didn't realize it.
          And Tracy told us, 'Don't tell ANYONE that you got
          the information from Bill Moore. And to this day, Bill
          Moore doesn't know that we got it through Tracy. He
          wasn't supposed to reveal it. He told us about 15%...
          15% of the classified information under Project Aquarius."

 <Mickus> "That he [Torme] knows?"

<Fenwick> "That he knows. He knows all of it. So does Bill Moore,
          Bill told him everything."

 <Mickus> "Torme knows all of it?"

<Fenwick> "Torme knows all of it, and so does Moore. Bill Moore
          told Torme this. Torme is, by the way the son, the oldest
          son of Mel Torme the singer. I've met Mel in town here
          one time. This is what he told us. He said [Tracy], 'I
          can't tell you anymore.' And he later on told Moore to...
          [?] ..Harry and Joe near New York city. They drove down
          there with their wives or girlfriends whatever, and they
          met him in a motel...and he started talking...and he
          wouldn't allow them to make notes. Nothing, just verbal.
          Hear it, and remember it. And he told me when they came
          back. Outdoors we were walking along the street one night,
          and it's dark, and they're telling me when no one was
          around...there was no one within sight, in the area I
          live in. So that no one would over hear...not that a
          satellite couldn't pick-up the conversation...but
          certainly no one on the ground, so they were careful in
          that respect."

          One thing you have to remember, when you are talking about
          the UFO phenomenon...and here I'm showing my conservative
          bent..., and that is, let us suppose that the information
          posed by Condor and Falcon on that show, and told to Bill
          Moore, is all false. That everything is false. Its all
          disinformation...or what's know in as 'grey' propaganda,
          a bit of truth mixed in with a lot of phony things. Let
          us suppose that all of this, all of what I have said to
          you about Project Aquarius...[that] the classified
          information supposedly, is all false. If in fact it was
          deliberately promulgated to test a reaction among
          UFOlogists to this sort of information, as to whether they
          could follow-up on it...or find out whether it is true
          or not. That in itself would be of interest to people in
          the UFO field. This is one of the reason's why I am talking
          about this information. If its all false, its certainly a
          most interesting scenario. And the motivations behind the
          spreading of...lies, from a psychological point of view, it
          certainly is quite interesting. So I must...as I say...I must
          predicate, I must be conservative here, predicate what I
          have said as an afterword shall we say, with that statement.

          All of what I've said, I'm sure is interesting to people.
          Some of it to some people might be unbelievable, some of it
          might be astonishing, some of the people might agree with
          some of the things said, [saying to themselves], 'that sounds
          plausible'. But when you use 'grey' propaganda, you mix in
          plausible things with things that are false. That was done
          with that television program show in England, called,
          "Alternative 3"...they mixed in a few facts with a lot of
          baloney. I have a letter from the guy who wrote the script,
          on how they dreamed it up at lunch-time one day."

 <Mickus> "Its interesting that you mention that. John Lear was one
          of the first people I met on ParaNet, and we had a bit of a
          dialogue on that very subject. I ended up finding a short
          paragraph on it in a movie compendium [see A3MOVIE.TXT in the
          UFOlogy File Area], and it ended basically by saying that
          the movie was only fiction, but that people still view it
          as being true."

<Fenwick> "There are still people who believe it. And there have been
          mysterious deaths in England lately among people involved
          with defense contracts, computer scientists. And I've got
          newspaper clippings from England on that, just this last
          week. So there is a bit of truth mixed in."

 <Mickus> "Which elements in the movie do you think are true?"

<Fenwick> "Well, obviously that people have died, but whether they
          are coincidental or not, we don't know."

 <Mickus> "What about this thing about a Moonbase?"

<Fenwick> "No. I don't think so. I've talked to Buzz Aldrin about that
          on the phone. And I said, "Ah, somebody's trying to dream up
          a story for the National Enquirer...what nonsense.' [Aldrin
          said] 'I didn't see any bases on the moon while we were up
          there on Apollo 11, thats' a lot of nonsense.' He denied it.
          Technically there could be bases on the moon underground, NASA
          has the capabilities now, they had them years ago. In the
          1960's I wrote a full page article for "Daily Commercial News"
          on underground construction on the moon, I still have a copy
          of the article. All the technical data is available in the
          Toronto Public Library. I did research for weeks and weeks on
          that."

 <Mickus> "The hard part is getting the equipment up there."

<Fenwick> "Thats all. But the actual installation and so on, is not too
          difficult."

 <Mickus> "What other elements of the A3 Movie would you see as...."

<Fenwick> "Factual? That's all. I've given them to you. That's all."

 <Mickus> "Now, these people who are coming up missing, what's
          happening to them. They are being killed because of what
          they know?"

<Fenwick> "I think that that's a Soviet thing. I think the Soviets are
          involved in those..., those murders...those deaths, those
          mysterious deaths in England lately."

 <Mickus> "Oh, so you don't see those being related in anyway to goings
          on in the field of UFOlogy?"

<Fenwick> "No, not at all."

 <Mickus> "So the A3 Movie then, there's really no relation at all to.."

<Fenwick> "...not to UFO's."

 <Mickus> "Its more an East-West thing?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, primarily that. And a test of reactions I suppose, as
          some suspect, by the producers of the show, that's all. They
          wanted to see how people would take it."

 <Mickus> "And that's a recurring theme..."

<Fenwick> "I know it is. I have a whole file on A3...Alternative 3, a
          thick file...ending with a letter from the producers."

 <Mickus> "Saying that..."

<Fenwick> "Saying that its all a hoax. That they dreamed it up over
          lunch one day. I have it on their official letterhead of
          their production company."

 <Mickus> "And you said that Torme was interested in it?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, he hadn't seen the movie. It wasn't shown in the
          states, it was shown in Canada twice on Global TV in
          southern Ontario."

 <Mickus> "When did he get in touch with you, years ago?"

<Fenwick> "No. Just a month ago. He happened to mention it."

 <Mickus> "He's probably gotten that from Lear then..."

<Fenwick> "Oh yeah. Lear tends to repeat what he [has] heard. Lear
          doesn't in terms of a lot of information on UFOs. Linda
          Howe has told me that she was in touch with Lear...and
          that they had all kinds of problems there..."

 <Mickus> "...and disagreements?"

<Fenwick> "Disagreements, yes. One's repeating what the other says.
          Back and forth, then it spreads around and so on. Rumours...
          and things get exaggerated with a rumour, and this is what
          has happened with Richard Doty...the Richard Doty case."

 <Mickus> "Have you read the so called Lear document, the Lear text?"

<Fenwick> "No."

 <Mickus> "Okay...but what you've heard about John Lear, he's
          basically repeating things from other sources."

<Fenwick> "Sure. He's not doing any research himself."

 <Mickus> "And from what you know of what he's said, I should
          probably give you the Lear.txt as to actually read as
          he makes a quite a number of claims..."

<Fenwick> "I've heard some of the claims through Linda Howe. Linda
          Moulton Howe."

 <Mickus> "Which of what you heard would you say he is correct or
          wrong about?"

<Fenwick> "I've heard too much...too go into detail"

 <Mickus> "What about some of the highlights...crashed disks, there
          are supposed to be 30 crashed disks [in the hands of the
          U.S. Government]."

<Fenwick> "Well, I've heard that years ago. It was an estimate. It
          was a guess, that's all. And these guess's get exaggerated
          and passed around from one UFOlogist to another. From
          someone maybe who's in casual conversation with another,
          [and says] 'Maybe there are about 30 of them crashed, who
          knows.' And before you know it, its THIRTY."

 <Mickus> "Personally, how many do you think?"

<Fenwick> "The Roswell one is definite. Also the one at Elindeo [sp?]
          Texas, on the Mexican border is definite..."

 <Mickus> "And what year is the second one?"

<Fenwick> "1980. And then in 1948, the one in Kingmon [sp?] Arizona.
          that's a definite one. And I think maybe the one other one
          is in Syracuse, New York...in 1967. Those are the only ones
          I know of, although I've heard rumours about one in the
          Rockies in Canada in 1952. Rumours. Indirect contacts with
          someone who is there, this sort of thing."

 <Mickus> "And all these crashed due to mechanical problems...none
          of them have been shot down?"

<Fenwick> "Yes [mechanical problems], except for Roswell. Roswell
          wasn't a mechanical problem, Roswell was a lightning
          strike. And also there was another crash that occurred in
          Michigan, Hillsdale. Dexter Michigan...where Gerald Ford
          got involved in calling for a congressional investigation.
          That was a crash. That was landing for repairs, put it
          that way."

 <Mickus> "And the one about the farmer's case you mentioned, where
          it landed and took off..."

<Fenwick> "That wasn't actually a crash, but a landing for repairs.
          same in England. That one at Bentwaters, that was a landing
          for repairs...and it was repaired, and they took off again."

 <Mickus> "Okay, you mention Bentwaters. Maybe we can get into that
          a bit. Now do you believe that's true, about what supposedly
          happened?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes."

 <Mickus> "Maybe if you would recount..."

<Fenwick> "Well I'm recounting investigations done by other people.
          I don't like to do that, its second hand information."

 <Mickus> "But you basically believe that..."

<Fenwick> "An alien craft landed for repairs, and was assisted in
          its repairs by the commander, Commander Williams of the
          Air Force base there. Gordon Williams."

 <Mickus> "And how many were there?"

<Fenwick> "I had heard that there were more than one, lets put it
          that way."

  <Mickus> "And how many air force personnel do you believe
           witnessed this..."

<Fenwick> "It depends on what part you're talking about, the
          underground meeting, or the above ground meeting.
          There were at least a dozen people involved in that
          case. And there were military policeman involved. One
          chap who wasn't there, who claimed originally to have
          been there, was a fellow named Larry Warren. He actually
          heard it from someone else, another military policeman
          who was at the underground meeting with the Men In Black
          [MIB] supposedly. Giving instructions."

 <Mickus> "But not much is known about that meeting?"

<Fenwick> "No, its only referred to very briefly in the book by
          Jenny Randles and Dot Street, 'Skycrash'. There's
          another authoress, but I've forgotten her name. I think
          there's about one or two sentence about that in the
          whole book. And that was probably the most important
          aspect of it...and they couldn't get any more information
          on that. I've got an unpublished manuscript by Larry
          Warren at home...part of one chapter really...about 10
          pages. He's writing a book, so he said that this is not
          for publication...and he talked about some of his
          experiences, not there...but as a Military policeman
          being transferred to some secret NSA facilities in
          Egypt, and another one in Florida."

 <Mickus> "Connected with..."

<Fenwick> "Connected with he doesn't know what. Every American and
          Canadian Air Force Base has underground facilities. If
          anything were to go in or out, it would be like 3 or 4
          in the morning. A UFO comes in for repairs, or whatever.
          If you want to deal in rumour...I was on a bus one day
          downtown. It was night and I was the only guy on the
          bus, and talking to the driver I mentioned UFOs. He said,
          'Oh, I wonder if there is any connection with my friend.
          This guy I know is a janitor up at Downsview Air Force
          Base. And he's in the underground facilities. He said
          that you would be amazed as to what's under there', but
          he wouldn't go on any further about that. I questioned
          him further, but he said he didn't know any more than
          that."

 <Mickus> "You've obviously heard the claims about the underground
          bases, in Nevada..."

<Fenwick> "...Nellis Air Force Base. That is the main facility
          in Nevada... Apparently that is near Area #51, or
          'Dreamland' as its known. But its not on the map.
          You'll find Nellis on the map, but you won't find
          Dreamland or Area #51 on the map. Its all in the area
          where they test the UFOs that are lent to them. There
          was one which supposedly crashed in 1984, killing the
          Commander, General Robert Bond. And it was on the
          front page of the Toronto Star [Major Canadian Daily]
          as a crash of a steath weapon. That's how they
          publicize it. And even Walt Andrus said that that was
          a Stealth weapon...the head of MUFON. Actually it was
          a UFO lent to the Americans in 1975, and test flown
          all the way up through 1984, when it crashed killing
          the pilot, General Robert Bond. If its something
          classified, not necessarily stealth, but a UFO lets
          say...then you wouldn't have anyone less than a general
          flying it. It would be on a need to know basis, you
          wouldn't have an ordinary pilot. And when he died, his
          wife was told, his family was told that [there] was
          a crash of an American Air Force plane...which was
          classified, that's all, not a UFO. But is was a UFO.
          It had been fitted with jets, but there was a problem
          with controls."

          "The same with that case in Texas, where those two women
          and the boy..., the Cash-Landrum case. That was one of
          the craft lent to them, the diamond-shape one. So they
          have different kinds of..."

 <Mickus> "So they way it was presented on the show [UFO-Coverup]
          was basically correct?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes, it was an alien craft. There's no question
          about that. That's what it was. And I had suspected
          this for quite some time with John Schussler [sp?]
          who had written about this, and lectured about this
          at various symposia. I mentioned this, along with
          Harry and Joe...all three of us said to John, and
          he's with NASA...he worked on the original Shuttle
          program, and he's semi-retired now with MacDonnel
          Douglas. He's a program director for the shuttle
          mission...one of the early shuttle missions. And
          we mentioned our theory that it was an alien craft.
          And he said, 'I don't think so.'...but now he KNOWS.
          That's what it was...there's no question thats what
          it was...even though the television show said that
          maybe it was an American secret weapon, or maybe it
          was an alien craft. They left it up in the air. But
          it was an alien craft, there's no much doubt about
          that."

          "So...over the years you hear all these stories, and
          unless you've been there, unless you were there when
          the thing happened...that's all they are, Stories.
          Second-hand, third-hand information and so on. Unless
          you're like Bill Moore, or the people in Project
          Aquarius who are on this full-time, you're not going
          to find out the truth. You're going to hear what is
          purported to be the truth. You'll hear second-hand
          stories...you'll hear newspaper accounts...."

          "Now here's something that you might not know, and
          that is...in relationship to the media, about publicity
          of UFOs, you don't see too much in the daily papers
          about UFOs, not very much. You do see, almost every week
          in the tabloids...tabloid magazines, articles about..oh,
          'Aliens Found in Soviet Tundra' or whatever...you know,
          all sorts of stories. There are various publications in
          the United States. One is called 'The Sun', you have
          another one called 'The National Examiner', another one
          called 'The Globe', another one called 'Weekly World News',
          and there is the "National Enquirer", and 'The Star'."

          "The history of those publications, just briefly...
          The National Enquirer was the original, the original
          tabloid, the largest circulation newspaper in the world
          incidentally. The Weekly World News and The National
          Enquirer are published by the same company. The publisher
          ...is with the Central Intelligence Agency. He is...I
          believe, Deputy Chief of one of the Divisions to do with
          counter-intelligence. When The National Enquirer and The
          Weekly World News publish a UFO story, it is true. [With]
          the other publications, they are copies of The National
          Enquirer. They [other publications] hire freelance writers
          who use phony names and bylines, and print stories which
          are false, in most instances. 90% of those stories in The
          National Examiner, and The Globe, and The Sun, and The Star
          ...The Star doesn't publish that sort of thing anymore but
          they used to...; are phony stories. Now, if you were to
          publish the stories that are in The National Enquirer, and
          The Weekly World News, on the front page of The New York
          Times or The Washington Post or The Globe & Mail, it
          would really upset people. But if you publish them in
          tabloids...where all the stories are sensational...at least
          the headlines are sensational, then they don't stand out,
          and they don't frighten people. People tend to laugh at them
          and say 'Oh well, its all phony'. But if you are in the UFO
          field, you find out that stories are not phony. You follow
          up on them, and you find out that they are actual cases.
          The general public doesn't know that they are."

 <Mickus> "But the names of Doctors, etc., within the articles are..."

<Fenwick> "...True. In The [National] Enquirer and The Weekly World
          News."

 <Mickus> "The actual names are true?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Those are the real names. But in the other journals,
          The Examiner, The Globe, The Sun, they put phony names all
          the way through and phony stories, and so on. Even the
          writers are using phony names."

 <Mickus> "Do you know the publisher's name off-hand? Its listed of
          course..."

<Fenwick> "No, I know that he's a 'Jr.', his father has the same
          name. All you have to do is look in The National Enquirer
          and you'll see the publisher's name there."

 <Mickus> "In that particular magazine, is it just him himself, or
          are there other's involved too?"

<Fenwick> "No, just him himself. He gets the stories from Aquarius...
          and from MJ-12."

 <Mickus> "The rebels, or the..."

<Fenwick> "The rebels. I think he's working with them. I'm not certain
          about that, I can't be certain about that...maybe not. And
          publishes them [UFO stories] to see what kind of reaction
          they get from the readers...[to see] who sends in letters
          to those articles."

 <Mickus> "Okay...before we follow-up on the media thing; MJ-12 has
           24 members?"

<Fenwick> "No. 12. Project Aquarius has 24 members. Two different
           groups."

 <Mickus> "Now what's their relationship?"

<Fenwick> "A direct relationship. Project Aquarius is the overall
          umbrella organization. MJ-12, Majestic Twelve are the
          people who work with ONI on field investigations. They
          go to the crash sites; they have the meetins with the
          aliens, along with Aquarius people. Aquarius people
          don't get involved with the crashes. The MJ-12 people
          do that...they are scientists, and military people and
          so on. They work as a team. They are flown out...at a
          moments notice...from wherever they are."

 <Mickus> "The MJ-12 Group?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. The Aquarius people, they do the overall supervision
          of the MJ-12 people. And they get information from all
          sorts of sources, like the CIA, the DIA, and so on... the
          National Intelligence Agency and so on. And they are the
          umbrella organization. They co-ordinate everything. The
          Navy does the field investigations along with MJ-12.
          There's always someone from the Navy on MJ-12. Usually
          the Secretary of the Navy...someone big like that. So
          they get an overall view on Aquarius of what's going on.
          And they decide the policy."

          "But...since 1975 they have NOT been deciding policy. The
          aliens...the EBEs...tell the people at Project Aquarius
          how to handle the whole thing. Under the agreement...'Do
          Not Reveal Our Presence, or We Will Interfere With Your
          History.' And it was mentioned on that TV show [UFO Coverup]
          ...and they ARE going to interfere in our History, that is
          why we are going to have World War III."

          "Now getting back...I'm going to digress a little bit.
          There were three books written in the last 8 years. By
          a fellow from Northern Ireland with the initials, W.A.
          Harbinson. According to...I can't recall who told me this,
          whether it was Bill Moore or Tracy Torme...worked [Harbinson]
          with the National Security Agency. He wrote three books. One
          called 'Genesis', which talks about the Nazi's in the South
          Pole...developing UFO's and this sort of thing; a rather
          interesting book. And if you read the end of the book, its
          a fictional book...until you read the end there is about
          12 pages of footnotes. References to 'samizdat'...the neo-Nazi
          group in Toronto, and their publications...and a lot of Nazi
          books, a lot of military books by a fellow by the name of
          Walther Horndorffer [sp?], and several other books, quite a
          few books actually mentioned there, and famous books on
          UFOlogy. All this information comes from those books...but
          if you didn't go to the appendix at the end of the book, you
          wouldn't know that if you had just read the novel and said,
          'the heck with the rest of it, I won't bother reading it',
          you wouldn't realize that that's all based on fact. The
          names have been changed in most cases."

          "Then he wrote another book called 'Revelation'. And a third
          book called 'The Light of Eden'. I've read all three books.
          And I think that they are a TEST of how people would react
          to those books, [as in] how many people had written to the
          author...what did they have to say about it...how much do
          they know. They are trying to find out who might know, who
          has found out some of this classified information that
          shouldn't know. Now, the second book 'Revelaton'...there's
          a lot of sex in these books, the third book particularly..
          each one had sexual stories in it, a couple of stories,
          very explicit stuff though. The second book 'Revelation',
          takes place in a little town; which is in existence, is
          called Armageddon in Israel. And what happens...now this
          is supposedly in 1990...at that town there is a confrontation
          between two individuals...I use the word individuals, lets
          say entities or individuals. Just prior to that there has
          been a bomb explosion at the most holy shrine of the Muslims
          [in Mecca]. The bomb has been thrown by a muslim...and the
          Jews are blamed. A holy war, or jihad is underway at that
          point, and the Americans and Soviets come in with everything
          they've got. And there's a war between the Americans and
          the Soviets...and the Arabs and the Jews, all together."

          "The Soviets leave their country unprotected...meanwhile
          the Chinese come in and invade the Soviet Union and
          takeover the country. Takeover the entire Soviet Union.
          Takeover the entire country."

 <Mickus> "This is all detailed in the book of course..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. Part of it. Part of it I got from another source,
          from a former member [CUFORN], now deceased. The two
          individuals I mentioned earlier are the Anti-christ or
          Devil...the devil incarnate shall we say. And the Jewish
          Saviour, not Christ. The real Jewish Saviour who has yet
          to arrive according to the Jewish Talmud [Note: Some
          Christian Fundamentalists would view such a figure as the
          biblical 'False Prophet'] He will arrive in our time.
          That will be 1990, its only 2 years from now. At that
          location, in the midst of the war...war will have been
          underway...and it will not be a nuclear war to start with,
          but it will end up that way on July 7th, 1999...a nuclear
          war between the Chinese and the Americans. And we will all
          be 'gone' with the exception of certain people who had
          been abducted, who will supposedly be taken off this
          planet by mother ships, large carrier craft [to be] taken
          somewhere else and maybe brought back somehow, or taken
          to some other planet. Maybe they will be cryogenetically
          frozen or something, I don't know. Taken to another 'time'
          and brought back to planet Earth when all the radiation
          has died down in 200 or 300 years...and woken up whatever,
          I don't know how they do it...maybe re-seed the planet,
          whatever they do. But get the abductees of here for some
          reason...maybe genetic...maybe they are going to inter-
          breed, create a muscular species. The species [EBEs] don't
          have much muscles."

 <Mickus> "There's already inter-breeding going on."

<Fenwick> "Yes, there is inter-breeding already going on....When men
          and women are abducted their is ova extracted, and semen
          extracted and so on. This is going on for various reasons.
          But genetically, they want to improve their...,get a
          hybrid race that will have their brains, and our muscles.
          Basically they are very weak, physically. But they have
          a lot of mental capacity...they can lift all kinds of
          objects with their minds; they are so powerful with their
          telekinetic abilities. So I think that when you read these
          books...the three books by Harbinson, you are being tested.
          Now, getting back to Armageddon... The war between the
          Arabs and the Jews, and the Soviets and the Americans...
          all involved at once; will last 9 years. The Soviet Air
          Force, Army and Navy...everything will be wiped out by
          the Americans. The Americans will win that battle...the
          Jews will win the battle. The Arabs and the Soviets will
          be wiped out...everything will be gone."

 <Mickus> "That they've sent there..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. Everything is wiped out. The Soviets will have
          nothing left in the Soviet Union. They'll have sent
          everything they've got to Israel. Everything. They'll
          have left themselves defenceless because they figure
          that this is the opportune time to takeover that area,
          which is oil-rich. Obviously they would want that, so
          they will pull out all the stops. And the war will last
          from 1990 to 1999. On July 7th of 1999, the nuclear
          holocaust will occur. That's the date that Nostradamus
          predicted in his book...books, in his predictions.
          That very date."

 <Mickus> "Are you going off that, or is that just a coincidence?"

<Fenwick> "I'll tell you something else, this is from another source.
          I mentioned a deceased member of our organization...his
          name is Charlie Alcock Charlie has a fascinating history
          If you've ever heard of Alcock & Brouwn, they flew the
          Atlantic before Lindburgh, as a team. Sir Charles Alcock,
          was Charlie Alcock's first cousin. Charlie was a pilot who
          flew in various air races, in Cleveland...various races,
          etc. He flew for won a race for England, and was given an
          escorted Helicopter tour of London, with Price Phillip at
          the controls, and was given a surprise dinner with the
          Royal Family. He ran a joke shop of all things, while
          living here in Toronto. He had died of a second stroke."

          "He had had a sighting of a UFO and had told his friend who
          happened to be Commander of Wordsmith [sp?] Air Force Base
          in Michigan, around Sudbury [Ontario] when they went skeet
          shooting one time. The friendship was terminated at that
          point. When Charlie talked to me, he said that the commander
          said, 'I'm not going to get together with you anymore, I
          don't want to talk about UFOs, and if you are going to talk
          this way, forget our friendship.' And that was it. Charlie
          said, 'Goodbye, I don't need you anymore.' When Charlie had
          his first stroke, he was sent to a Toronto hospital. He
          was up at ambulatory at the time, and 4 people from CUFORN
          interviewed him and tape-recorded the conversation, a 1-hour
          tape which I have at home. He had a Men-Black-Incident [MIB]
          in the hospital. He had talked to someone about the UFO
          event in the hospital, one of the other patients. And just
          the night after that he had a visit in his bedside at night
          by an entity all dressed in black...who warned him not to
          talk any further about this."

<Fenwick> "Charlie mentioned something on the tape which I have,
          of an incident which took place in the 1930's, when he
          was in high school in grade nine."

          "Some thought came to him during class, something about
          in the future. He doesn't know how it came to him. He
          started doodling, and did some drawings. The teacher
          saw him doodling, took a look at the pictures, and then
          confiscated them. After the class, Charlie was asked to
          stay, and the teacher asked him what were the drawings.
          He said they just came to me. She then went to speak to
          the principal about the drawings."

          "What Charlie had drawn was a map of the world. And in
          very large drawing form he draw a series of tanks. And
          in front of each tank there was a large plexi-glass sort
          of shield, through the plexi-glass shield there was an
          opening, through those openings are what looked like
          laser beams shooting out...now this was in the 1930's.
          And the tanks were placed in a sequence, one after
          another...coming from China into the Soviet Union. And
          on several other places on the map, he didn't remember
          where...there were several mushroom shaped clouds. The
          principal did not let it stand at that point. He called
          Ottawa. The next day an official, I don't know at what
          rank, from the Department of National Defense, showed
          up and started talking to Charlie. Here's a grade 9
          kid talking to someone from the Ministry of National
          Defense, who asked him where he got these ideas. Charlie
          said, 'I had a dream I think, maybe it came from that
          dream. And I started drawing what I had seen in the
          dream.' He had dreamt the future...he had dreamt about
          World War III. And the DND now knows."

 <Mickus> "Do you have the drawings?"

<Fenwick> "No. They were confiscated. The one drawing may still
          be in a file somewhere in Ottawa. And Charlie described
          this to us, and he said, ' I think I may have had a
          premonition of the future at that time.' And someone in
          the 1930's at DND must have known something important...
          about Einstein, and maybe a bomb could be developed from
          E=mc2 or something. Maybe Einstein had been in touch
          with some scientists in Ottawa...who knows? And maybe
          that was why that trip was made down from Ottawa to
          Toronto to visit this grade 9 kid. And that is quite a
          story. Now, Charlie worked at Camp X, where spies were
          trained in WW II. He knew what was going on at Camp X,
          he had met David Niven out there, and a few other people
          who were trained as spies in Europe. He had quite a story
          to tell, and its all on this tape anyway. But thats all
          that Charlie had to say in relationship to...what turns
          out to be, or may turn out to be Project Aquarius
          information...classified information, about what is to
          happen in our future."

 <Mickus> "Getting back to the Harbinson books, I got the sense
          too, cause I've just finished reading 'The Light of Eden'
          Are you saying that certain elements of what he is saying
          is true? For instance, Harbinson seems to go off of Robert
          K. Temple's book 'The Sirius Mystery'. He believes that
          they're [aliens] are from there..."

<Fenwick> "...well some of them are."

 <Mickus> "...and that they have been coming in different periods
          of our history to..."

<Fenwick> "Interfacing, causing things to happen. Well Sirius is one
          of the sources. Zeta Reticuli is one supposedly, and Sirius
          is another, and the Pleiades maybe another one. I've heard
          about one or two others, but mostly these ones."

 <Mickus> "But you personally would lean towards..."

<Fenwick> "I would say Zeta Reticuli is the most logical one because
          that was in the Betty and Barney Hill case. That was
          discovered later on, years later once they researched it.
          Thats where they were from. Sirius is probably the second
          [likeliest] possibility. The Pleiades one is a very
          controversial one. That's the Eduard Meier Swiss case,
          which may or may not be true. I just got a book of some
          of the writings of the Pleiades people given to Meier,
          about 150 pages [which contain] some of the things that
          were not on the three videos that were produced in
          connection with the Meier case, which I have at home."

 <Mickus> "How does this mesh with the 'failed experiment'
          [referring to what we talked about in the first 45 mins
          of the interview which was 'lost'], because a lot of
          the talk is that we are entering into a 'new age' of..."

<Fenwick> "...the Age of Aquarius. We're in it. Let me talk about
          something that happened in 1983, in my apartment. Most
          of the CUFORN members attended from the Toronto area.
          Bill Moore was in town."

 <Mickus> "He was there?"

<Fenwick> "He was there, in my apartment. He made a little speech.
          Very short. He stood up in the middle of the apartment.
          I remember that I was sitting on the couch at the time,
          and everyone was standing around or sitting around, I
          haven't got a big apartment...there were about 20 people
          there. I mentioned Project Aquarius to him as he had
          sent a telex, the 'stolen telex', we looked it over...
          we published it in fact. And I said, 'What, do you
          any more about Project Aquarius?" And he said, 'Well,
          I'll tell you something that's connected. In 1990
          something's going to happen on planet Earth which will
          change the course of human history forever, in 1990'.
          And I said, 'Well, how important is it?'. He said,
          'Well it will be as important as if Christ had returned.'
          And I said, 'Is it THAT?' He changed the topic IMMEDIATELY
          [Fenwick's emphasis], to some new information about the
          Roswell incident. He changed the topic very quickly...as
          if he knew what was going to happen at Armageddon in 1990."

 <Mickus> "And referring our telephone conversation, what is the
          'Jesus' connection?"

<Fenwick> "Well, that's pretty difficult to say. The Jesus connection
          I think...we're talking not about Jesus, but about the
          Anti-christ meeting with the Jewish Saviour...who is an
          entirely different person, and with the prophet Elijah who
          may return at the same moment. In other words, three people
          involved, although Harbinson said two in his book. I think
          its three."

 <Mickus> "As an aside, from my own readings on these 'End time'
          scenarios, Elias and Enoch are supposed to return for a
          final confrontation with the Anti-christ and false prophet,
          who is Jewish. They are the only two figures of both
          the old and new testaments, who never experienced physical
          death. In St. John's Book of Revelations they are thought
          to be the the 'two witnesses' [Rev.11], who by today's
          standards will have incredible 'psychic' powers." This
          whole scheme of things, as soon as you mention the name
          Anti-christ, seems to suggest a Judeo-Christian context...
          is that essentially correct?"

<Fenwick> "Yes."

 <Mickus> "Well then where do the aliens fit in?"

<Fenwick> "Well I don't know about that part, but maybe we can go
          into that a little later. But briefly, the confrontation
          between Enoch, Elijah...the Jewish Saviour whatever name
          you want to give to him, and the Anti-christ; will be
          a mental confrontation. A battle of minds...which will
          occur on one day..."

 <Mickus> "A battle of 'miracles'?"

<Fenwick> "Possibly miracles, I don't know. On that one day. And
          that will be the key element in the whole 'beginnings'
          of the 9-year war. Now the 9-year war...as I say called
          WW III. Now the 'alien connection' is strictly through
          project Aquarius. They know the future, they know the
          history of this planet...they have a long-term master
          plan for this planet, and it includes WW III. That's
          the only connection."

 <Mickus> "But they're not 'God' though?"

<Fenwick> "No...but they're very close to it. What we would call
          in the old days, 'angels'. The equivalent. Able to make
          miracles. Christ himself may have been a product of a
          hybrid. Mary, under the Immaculate Conception...now
          we're dealing in religion. Now this is one of the reasons
          why Tracy Torme was talking how religion will be affected.
          We talk about the various things that have happened...in
          terms of genetic experiments...interbreeding with the
          abductees. Mary may have given birth to Christ through
          the same means. One ova was extracted, and Christ was born.
          There are a lot of years of Christ that we don't know
          what happened, he was out in the desert and so on. This is
          where the whole thing may have come to fruition. All the
          miracles that Christ was supposed to have done were quite
          common in those days...in terms of capabilities of people.
          A lot of people in those days could do the same things
          as Christ could do."

          "Recently...now I'm digressing somewhat here to religion.
          Harry Tokarz, our co-director, is quite a religious chap.
          He reads a Jewish publication, the 'Canadian Jewish News'.
          And recently...I think this was about 4 months ago...there
          was an article that said the Dead Sea Scrolls are being
          translated by computer. And the latest thing that they
          have come up with, and released to the media...the Jewish
          media, is that in those days...in the days of Christ,
          almost everyone could do the same things that Christ could
          do...but didn't do it openly. Christ did. And he was
          punished for that by being killed and crucified. Not
          because he was starting up a new religion or anything else,
          [but] because he did all these things...and they were not
          [supposed] to be done publicly. And he was taking advantage
          of his abilities...his psychic abilities to do...create
          'loaves of bread out of one'...this sort of thing. And
          everyone could do it in those days. And this is what has
          come out of the dead sea scrolls...this is fact."

 <Mickus> "The Essenes could do this?"

<Fenwick> "Yes...oh yes."

 <Mickus> "But only that limited group though?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know about that. That I don't know. I haven't
          gone that much into it. But the Essenes certainly...and
          maybe a lot of other people in those days had that ability.
          Now, if we were to get into the other aspect of things
          that Christ could do. Moses parting the Red Sea, [he] may
          have had that capability. People in those days were not
          technologically advanced as we are today. They are close
          to the primitive Africans...who can sense things a mile
          away...they have all these psychic/spiritual abilities. I
          think that primitive people were more advanced than we are
          in terms of their mental abilities, and their abilities to
          do things that we would consider miracles. What we call
          miracles were commonplace then. Nowadays if we see a
          'miracle' we wonder if someone is hoaxing us...'this is
          phony, are we being hypnotised, is mass hypnosis going on'.
          They were probably able to do such a thing...hypnotize
          crowds of people into thinking they saw 'a thousand loaves
          of bread' and they weren't. They may have done it [and]
          they may not. So if you're talking about the effect on
          religion...and religious people...very religious Christians,
          if they knew that Christ was the product of inter-breeding
          between creatures from another planet and Mary, ...that
          would destroy the Christian religion utterly, number one.
          It would upset the scientists, and the general public. And
          that's why you keep it from the people. I think that if I
          were in Project Aquarius...if I were a member of Project
          Aquarius...and not one of the ones who are [currently]
          talking; I would say, 'Gee, it is justified. We shouldn't
          tell the people this..., its got to be just too darn
          upsetting. I mean, maybe all our religions were founded by
          them [aliens] in that way."

 <Mickus> "Why doesn't that one part of Project Aquarius 'silence'
          the ten rebels?"

<Fenwick> "There's a battle going on. A mental battle I think, or a
          paper battle. Some say yes, and some say no. And at the
          moment, the ones who say 'release it' are winning. Maybe
          in a few years time, maybe next year it will be the other
          side will hush it all up."

 <Mickus> "Why aren't Condor and Falcon 'kicked out'? I mean, they
          must be able to find out who those two are."

<Fenwick> "They can't."

 <Mickus> "Now the fact that Condor is reputed to be a black man..."

<Fenwick> "...that wasn't publicized in the show. I know it."

 <Mickus> "I know, you couldn't tell by watching the show [UFO Coverup],
          but the fact that a black man would be in a position of power
          like that, isn't that a bit suspect? [Note. To all reading,
          please don't misunderstand what I'm saying].

<Fenwick> "He doesn't got the rank that Falcon has. Condor is the
          black man."

 <Mickus> "And what is his rank?"

<Fenwick> "He's military. Falcon is scientific. He's a scientist.
          Scientist is above the military in MJ-12, under Aquarius.
          Scientist has a higher rank than the military. They can
          find out more, in terms of technological things. They
          supply the information on how the UFOs are propelled...to
          the military...who use it. But without the scientists, the
          military couldn't do a thing. So they get a higher ranking.
          They'd have to."

 <Mickus> "The fact that there is a black man up there..., I can see
          that if they were all Vietnam vets like you said, that
          would make sense there. But what is his 'minimum' ranking?"

<Fenwick> "Colonel. He's at least a colonel, but I don't know his
          exact rank. Stanton Friedman called him, 'Colonel B', just
          gave an initial, that's all."

 <Mickus> "But 'B' may not necessarily stand for anything. Just as
          like 'X' or whatever. 'B' could stand for 'black'."

<Fenwick> "Could use 'X', or however you want to do it. The
          information, according to Tracy he checked everything that
          had been told to Bill Moore. And everything checks out.
          Everything. The credentials...and all the information that
          he has [which] he didn't tell us, I mean I think we've
          know heard about 20% of the information. 15% from Tracy,
          and 5% from that TV show. There's a lot more. And Tracy
          was saying that..., 'if you think that what I have told
          you is astounding, you should hear the rest of it.' What
          we have heard, is nothing compared to the rest of the
          information that Aquarius has come up with."

 <Mickus> "How much more incredible can it get?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know how much more. He said [Torme], 'that it's
          beyond human imagination.'"

 <Mickus> "What would you say to people who try to separate the
          whole UFO phenomenon from religion, but just want to
          look at the empirical data."

<Fenwick> "The technological aspects? From a 20th Century point of
          view, all the technological things can not be done. No.
          The 21st century maybe, if we live that long..."

 <Mickus> "No, what I meant is...can we get a handle on the thing
          by disregarding the religious aspect?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Oh we can, sure. From what I have read, and I've
          read over 400 books on the subject, I think if you
          were to take an overview of everything that had been
          written, or at least that I have read; yeah, you can
          get a handle on it."

 <Mickus> "Divorced from the religious element?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes, definitely. There's no question about that."

 <Mickus> "...but you'd be missing the point though, if you didn't
          include it..."

<Fenwick> "You have to include that. That's the original source
          of the 'whole business'. I mean, I think they started
          our religions. I'm pretty sure they started our religions,
          certainly the Christian religion was started by them."

 <Mickus> "What, the one group...the 'grays'?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, the grays."

 <Mickus> "Do you believe there is 70, as in the 'Andreasson Affair'
          book?"

<Fenwick> "70 races there is in the planet, but I don't think that
          there are very many of the other 70 here around. Most
          of them are maybe grays, and some of the 'tall ones',
          and maybe the 'bigfoot' type, whatever. Those are the
          main ones, those are about 90% of them...of the individual
          aliens visiting the planet. That other 10% is the other
          67 races...maybe one or two guys from each race or
          something [who] at various times in our history have
          visited this planet."

 <Mickus> "What about that one reference to the one 'bad' group,
          the bad race [see 'Andreasson Affair']."

<Fenwick> "The bad race, I think we're talking about the grays
          there. I'm not certain. The grays are the bad guys
          supposedly. According to some people...and nobody's
          decided other than the people at Aquarius and MJ-12,
          who would probably know the truth...maybe. Everyone
          else is guessing...that the grays are the bad guys.
          Linda Howe is guessing...and John Lear is guessing,
          and so on. [Why?] Because of what they do to us,
          they abduct us...they are doing things that we don't
          like. If I were a scientist, a genetic scientist from
          another planet, and was coming down to this planet and
          doing experiments...and seeing this 'failed experiment'
          [ie. the human race]; I would do it, without any
          particular care about whether the human beings were upset
          by it or not. I'd just do the job...its my job, what the
          hell."

 <Mickus> "So we're a failed experiment..."

<Fenwick> "...from their point of view."

 <Mickus> "Yes, but what they are going to try and get out of us
          before we annihilate ourselves...which they are..."

<Fenwick> "...under the process of doing. Having us do it [to
          ourselves]."

 <Mickus> "They are contributing those thoughts to people's minds
          or whatever. What they want to take is that which will
          improve their own physiological make-up or whatever."

<Fenwick> "Yes, they're helping themselves. Hell, I would do it too
          if I had no muscles, and wanted muscles...and had the
          genetic capabilities of inter-breeding, sure I'd do it
          wouldn't you?"

 <Mickus> "Now, isn't that sort of a fluke in a way, that two
          different species would be able to inter-breed?"

<Fenwick> "Yes it is, but they 'blend'. They don't inter-breed
          very well, they've had some problems with it...they've
          had some real problems. They're working at it, [after all]
          they've just started at it. I'm sure that they've tried
          other places too. If they've 'seeded' other planets...
          maybe at some places it works perfectly, and maybe at
          other places it doesn't."

 <Mickus> "...Just so that I can get this whole religious schema
          which you've laid out, correct in my mind,...there's
          still 'God' and there's still the 'Devil', and there's
          humans AND there's other aliens which are 'angels'?"

<Fenwick> "What we would call angels. What we call angels...in
          terms of their capabilities and mental state...they're
          close to God."

 <Mickus> "But they're not angels as in our biblical conception
          of St. Michael for example. They may be a step below..."

<Fenwick> "Yes, I'd say just one step below."

 <Mickus> "For instance, there's reference in Genesis to the
          'Nephilim', who were said to be the offspring of
          illicit sexual relations between the 'Sons of God'
          [ie. angels] and 'the daughters of men'. Obviously
          the way you said it, the aliens would have been around
          long before that, but could they be something like that?"

<Fenwick> "Maybe. I don't know."

                 [ END OF PART ONE - SEE FENWICK2.TXT FOR PART TWO]

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      and so on. [Why?] Because of what they do to us,
          they abduct us...they are doing things that we don't
          like. If I were a scientist, a genetic scientist from
          another planet, and wa