From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject: Judgment Day for America -- July 4th, 1993
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 22:31:00 GMT

A Living Proof against America is the continuing imprisonment of
Livingstone Fagan, who is still being held as a =MATERIAL WITNESS=
and has been since March -- it is now July. Fagan is Branch Davidian.

Originally he was being held in McLennan County Jail, but has since
been moved to the Coryell County Jail in Gatesville Texas.

Mr. Fagan is a British citizen. 

His present address for mail is:

	Livingstone Fagan	
	510 Leon
	Gatesville, Texas 76528

The attendants are not allowed to pass messages to him,
nor telegrams, as I was told -- but he can receive mail.
But he is allowed to make collect calls between the hours
of 8 am - 11 pm.

I spoke by phone with British Vice Consul, David Hook, (who's 
presently in Dallas, though his office is in Houston), and has 
been up here visiting in the Dallas and Waco area. He saw 
Livingstone last monday. I had to contact the British Consular 
Office to find LF since he's not tracked as a prisoner by the 
Texas Criminal system (after many wasted phonecalls).

Mr. Fagan is an eloquent spokesman for the Davidian beliefs,
who lost his Wife and Mother in the fire, and his children are
being held by Texas Protective Services. 

He's a gracious man who I myself visited when he was at McLennan 
county jail on the day before Palm Sunday. We spoke on matters of 
faith mostly, (he has divinity degrees), but in parting I asked 
him if there was anything I could do for him. All he asked for 
at the time was to try to get some unleaven bread for Passover. 
I contacted the McClennan county Chaplain for assistance in the 
matter -- the end results of which were fruitless even with the 
intercession of the local Adventist(!) Pastor, which Fagan had 
requested.

It is my opinion that, Livingstone Fagan is now being held as a
*Religious Prisoner* by direction of the US Federal Government,
-- because granted his liberty -- he could make clear that the 
Davidians believe in Christ Jesus as the Son of God.

So where is the ACLU and other civil rights groups?? 
And where are the proponents of religious freedom??

Livingstone Fagan while locked up is clear witness against the 
HYPOCRISY and EVIL of America as it goes fourth in revelry this 
coming INDEPENDENCE DAY. So much for religious freedom.

May Almighty God call forth a True Witness and Righteous Judge to
weigh the depths of corruption that this nation has fallen too --
if such be in accord with His justice. This July 4th by rights should 
be our Nation's Judgment Day, when all the guilty can experience for 
themselves first hand how quickly Mt. Carmel burned.


Please, share this prayer:

Lord God Almighty return us to righteousness by thy just chastisements
for thy Namesake. Leave not those who you love alone, to stew in the
inquity of their own uncaring. Please turn us Lord, from the path of 
utter destruction, and return us to thy way, O Lord. Thy will be done. 

(As is my faith, I pray in Christ Jesus' name. Amen.)


   |            "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather
-- J --          give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengence
   |             is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.  (Romans 12:19)
   | stephen                                             (Deut. 32:35-36)
                                                         (Psalms 94)

From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject: Re: Judgment Day for America -- July 4th, 1993
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 07:10:00 GMT

In article <merlyn.741576759@digibd>, 
merlyn@digibd.digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy) writes...

>b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen) writes:
>....
>>It is my opinion that, Livingstone Fagan is now being held as a
>>*Religious Prisoner* by direction of the US Federal Government,
>>-- because granted his liberty -- he could make clear that the 
>>Davidians believe in Christ Jesus as the Son of God.
> 
>This statement is a non-sequitur; Fagan is being held *because*
>if he were free he could make clear that the Davidians believe in
>Jesus as the son of god?  As there are other Branch Davidians
>and former BDs available to explain this, I find this a totally
                ^^^^^^^^^
>unconvincing reason.
> 
>>So where is the ACLU and other civil rights groups?? 
>>And where are the proponents of religious freedom??
> 
>Give me some evidence that Fagan is being held because of his
>religious beliefs.  So far, you've given none.

Evidence fooey ML. If I'd wanted to persuade you I would have 
supported what I stated was my opinion. You decide on your own.

Go find out, I gave plenty of contact info.  
Here's more:

	Coryell County Sheriff 
	(and jail)               (817) 865-7201

	for criminal prisoners   (817) 865-6663
	("Hughes" branch)

Dallas office of the British Consulate  (214) 637-3600


As to why Livingstone is being held, doesn't he deserve to be 
released unless there are charges coming up soon? He's been 
held in legal limbo for months now -- since March, though "other"
witnesses are free and "available." And btw where is "Amnesty 
International" ??

LF came out of Mt. Carmel Compound after Schroeder -- the first 
few days after the initial raid, only to be kept in jail, as a 
witness. It is also my opinion that he's being kept muzzled, much 
as Koresh was. Strange, why bother?

Guess what, Fagan could well be the succesor to Koresh. Is it 
that something they would say could cause people to change 
their minds?? What could be so threatening? Haven't they been
thoroughly discredited as a demon cult already?

But rather than me elaborate -- why don't you just decide for 
yourself. Send him a letter with your telephone number in it,
(if you'll take a collect call). Used to be you could send him 
a telegram. And it's also smart to send stamps and sase, if
you correspond. 

That is, if God doesn't turn his back and allow evil to firebomb 
LA or DC first, or something similar... say mebe, "Nuke NY." 
("Huh, nahhh, no terrorist would dare attack on the 4th, not on a 
holiday. No way. We'd stomp their butts. And if we had any idea, 
what was up, we'd hit 'em hard first. Give 'em 150 missiles this 
time.) 

Yet, if such rotten methods are used on innocent "witnesses," makes 
you wonder what "our" government has been doing to control =enemies=,
(punishment, media-access, and propaganda-wise).

Now, *IF* I'm anywhere close to right about why Livingstone Fagan
is being detained, how's that make you feel about your government??
Gooey, YOU go figure it out.

More importantly, my faith is that the only One keeping America from 
being hammered hard by the wicked of the world is God. I wonder how 
long God will protect a nation of hypocrites? ('Course I reckon I 
have some good precedents in The Good Book, to go on.)

The continuing imprisonment of Livingstone Fagan is =proof= that our 
government is still acting wickedly and wrong, just as it did during 
the `siege' on the Davidians. In America, all you have to do to be
locked away is be a "witness." In another tongue, the word is "martyr."


   |           Elijah said,
-- J --        "How long will you halt between two opinions? ..."
   |
   | stephen   (1 Kings 18)

From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject: The Faith of Mt Carmel  //  re: Jail Mail from Livingstone Fagan  
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 20:20:00 GMT

[Text of Livingstone Fagan's enclosure in mail to me on 7-13-93  -- Sdt]

     Since  leaving  Mt Carmel  my most  difficult  task has  been  to
     communicate the position of faith in which I stand.  A task David
     tried  so  hard to  accomplish.  This  has  been overshadowed  by
     concern with the material facts  and  the bizarre media reporting
     of Mt Carmel.  Ironically a proper understanding of  the facts of
     Mt Carmel is not possible outside an appreciation of the faith we
     hold.

     This problem is made  further difficult because of  a large class
     of seemingly prejudiced  and surprisingly superficial minds.  Not
     to mention fear,  and  those  with vested interest in not knowing
     the truth.  On the face of it, all of this adds up to a difficult
     and  frustrating situation.  But not really.  I know that deep in
     the heart of  all who witnessed  Mt Carmel  the flames are  still
     burning.  The memory of those consumed lives on.  To those of you
     who seek to know the truth I will try to meet your sincerity.

     To  appropriate  our  position  of   faith  it  is  necessary  to
     understand the conceptual frame of reference in which we operate.
     I have learnt, that this cannot be assumed. The problem therefore
     rest with  bridging our  conceptual differences.  Let me say once
     this is accomplished the logic and simplicity  of our faith  will
     be seen in its true beauty.

     The human sensory  perceptors are extremely  crude as mediums  of
     information gathering.  They are limited  in space and time,  and
     subject to  manipulation.  It therefore follows that  information
     derived  from the  senses must  be subject  to scrutiny  if wrong
     judgement  is to be  avoided.  This  problem  is made  even  more
     difficult where minds are corrupted by particular prejudices.  It
     is also important to note, that the primary purpose of the senses
     is to facilitate consciousness of the physical, as opposed to the
     spiritual, environment we humans operate in.

     The foundation of our position of faith lies in the domain of the
     spiritual,  albeit with  a physical  manifestation.  This is  the
     subject matter of The Book Sealed with Seven Seals.  It brings to
     view the  hitherto un-manifest divine Will.  Conceptually this is
     outside of the frame of references mankind presently operates in.
     It is perceivable  only by  the divine process  described as  the
     `quickening.'  Please see (KJV)  John 5:21, 6:63  Ps. 119:37, 40,
     50, 149  Eph. 2:1-5 1  and  Cor. 15:45.  It is from a position of
     experiencing this process that I speak.  We are recipients of the
     righteousness which comes not by the will and action of man,  but
     of the will and action of God.  The human will  surrendering to a
     progressive revelation of the divine will quickens (empowers) man
     to  become  a  partaker  of  the  divine  nature  (2 Pet. 1:1-4).
     Salvation is simply being saved from human nature, which leads to
     death.  Mankind cannot save himself.  Any act on  his part  flows
     from his corrupt human nature. His only option is to trust God to
     do  it for him.  This,  God is faithful  and just  to do.  Do not
     however expect it  to be done  according to  the perceptions  and
     judgements of man.

     Very briefly, the knowledge of the  Will of God empowering man to
     be a partaker of the divine nature was not given 2,000 years ago.
     In rejecting Christ, that knowledge was also rejected.  The human
     race has continued  hitherto on the basis of Christ's forgiveness
     (Luke 23:34).  That knowledge which is the Spirit of Christ  was,
     at the Cross,  commended into the hand of the Father (Luke 23:46,
     see  also  John 6:63, 5:24 and  1 Cor. 2:9-14).  In  the book  of
     Revelation  the apostle John  is invited to heaven  to behold the
     Judgement of the end of time (Rev. 4 ff). In Rev. 5, in the right
     hand  of the One  [who] sat on  the throne is a book  sealed with
     seven  seals.  This book contains  that Spirit,  Christ commended
     into the hand of the Father, in written form. Among other things,
     the seals reveal the event of Christ's return,  just prior to his
     glorious manifestation (Rev. 1:1, 22:12, cf John 16:12-14).  This
     is in contrast to the mistaken belief  that  the Seals reveal the
     history of the Church to the end of time.  Through a knowledge of
     the  Seals,  the  human agent  is  made  able  to comprehend  the
     incomprehensible -- God in the flesh!

     David Koresh showed us the Seals.  That which is not lawful for a
     man to do.  In killing Him the details of that knowledge was once
     again  rejected.  But not without  Witnesses.  Moreover,  on this
     occasion  the  knowledge  concerning  the Seven Seals  being  the
     subject matter of the Judgement,  is made available to man.  This
     is extremely serious. The human race can no longer hide under the
     Law of Forgiveness for his ignorance (Luke 23:34).  The Judgement
     of this World is in process.  The next phase is the  execution of
     that Judgement.  This has  dire consequences  for the wicked.  It
     does not end there.  Christ's glorious manifestation  will not be
     immediately all consuming. In the establishment of His kingdom on
     the  earth,  those  deprived of  the  choice  for  truth will  be
     afforded  opportunity.  (Dan. 2:44  Isa. 2:2-4  Zech. 8:20-23, 14
     Mic. 4:1-3)

     Ours is not a Theory of Religion.  We lived it, and also died for
     it.  Spirit and Truth have met, and are joined in each other.

--- < end forwarded text > --

To respond, send postal mail to:

     Livingstone Fagan
     Coryell County Jail
     510 Leon St.
     Gatesville, Tx. 76528


   |
-- J --         The Word is The Bridegroom and The Comforter is The Bride.
   |            
   | stephen    (John 15 & 16, 1st John 4 & 5, Revelation 19 - 21)  


From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice, Arlington, Texas, uXa)
Subject: Re: Judgment Day for America 
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 06:28:00 GMT

In article <1993Jul7.210610.5504@seachg.com>, 
chrisb@seachg.com (Chris Blask) writes...

>strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:

>>A silent press, and witnesses held incommunicado
>>for months doesn't give me any warm fuzzies.
> 
>By witnesses you mean prisoners?  Have you seen a lot of prisoners
>interviewed on TV before a trial?

Let me make absolutely clear that Livingstone Fagan has been held
for 4 months IN TWO DIFFERENT JAILs, IN REGULAR CELLS, for nothing
more than being a *WITNESS*. He has not been convicted of anything.
He hasn't been charged with anything. 

When they do free him, they'll likely try to deport him (as has been
done with a Davidian who's a Jamaican national) -- and stick him right 
back in a cell in an INS "facility," (since he's British). Which is hor-
rible, since his two children who came out the from Mt. Carmel the first 
week, as he did, are lost off somewhere in Texas Protective Services. 

Fagan came out the first week of March, and was never charged with
anything, but has been held since as a "material witness." 

It makes me sick. I couldn't even go back to evening "July 4th" church 
services last sunday -- cause I found during morning services that I 
can't bring myself to say the pledge of allegiance any more. My nation 
has become the evil-enemy that the Soviets were, that I stood against 
for 11 years while in US military service. Now I understand why the 
flag-burners burned flags... but I still can't. Cause =America= is all 
the people who have ever been Americans living and dead, and many if 
not most of them were good people. And this land is where 8 generations 
of the bodies of my European ancestors, and much much farther back in my 
indian roots, are most all buried.

I am deeply hurt and ashamed of what it's become though. And heartsick
to find that the government has become so wicked, and the people so un-
caring. I hope God will open your eyes. The truth of all this is only
hidden by a very thin veil -- which any of you could see through -- if 
you cared. Some have, and to you I'm greatful -- be careful though.

I knew something was badly wrong when the federal authorities re-edited
the tape Koresh released, putting a part of something he'd said later on 
the front -- by their own admission. So I got hold of a copy of the tape 
myself, from the broadcast studios, and made a transcript. Compared it to 
the transcript published in the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, which was credi-
ted to the Associated Press -- I was shocked to find that every few lines 
of an hour long transcript were badly twisted. WHY???

I myself went down to visit Livingstone Fagan in jail in Waco, on the
saturday prior to palm sunday. And found he was being held separate from
the rest of the Davidians. Others had been charged, he hadn't. I myself
tried to get the Chaplain involved in providing some unleavened bread
which Livingstone asked for -- the Chaplain explained he couldn't without 
going through the federal authorities, and was never able to get him any 
in. WHY???

I myself tracked down Livingstone after he'd been moved recently, no 
easy matter. He's not being tracked like all the criminals in the Texas
penal system, by number. Eventually I found out from a phone call with 
the British Vice Consul himself, that Livingstone is now being held down 
in Gatesville (city), in the Coryell County Sheriff's Office. There are 
3 other facilities in Coryell county where convicts are kept -- 2 for
federal prisoners. 

I keep emphasizing "myself," because I'm not going on media reporting.
Or what I hear. I've heard all kinds of nonsense spanning the spectrums
of paranoia, and entertainment. And plenty to much of "who cares."

I tried to point out when I started this thread that, I'm not trying
to convince you of anything -- but I am convinced myself -- because 
I made the effort to find out. And it cost me, much more than money,
it cost me my love for *my* country. And I pray to God that he heal
my heart... I've kinda gotten used to crying now.

Be careful, don't make the effort, if your not able to bear the price.

Btw. I've contacted the Ft. Worth ACLU. And been pointed to their
board of directors. Tried calling one attorney last week, who's gone 
this week, but his partner's also on the board. Talked to the partner 
today, since they don't handle federal matters, he's given me the name 
of another director who does.  

I'll call him tomorrow and see if a writ of habeas corpus makes sense,
and if he'll submit it.

I'll also call the Christian Law Association tomorrow, for the same,
which I've held off from till now. Should be interestin' to compare notes.

I reckon I might as well get a second opinion. Any more ideas?

And please, somebody else, someone with guts -- double check me. The 
contact info is in the earlier parts of the thread, but it's best to 
dig it out on your own, I reckon. (Holler otherwise.)


   |           "Our fathers' God, to thee, Author of liberty, 
-- J --         To Thee I sing: Long may our land be bright 
   |            With freedom's holy light;
   | stephen    Protect us by Thy might, Great God, our King!"

From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject: A Letter from Livingstone Fagan   // re: Judgment Day for America
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 02:01:00 GMT

I'd like to share part of letter Livingstone Fagan sent me.  He's
writing from Coryell County Jail, on July 7th; I received it today
(July 9th)...

--- < begin missive > ---

      Dear Stephen,

      I  received your letter today. It was good to hear from
      you. My sincere gratitude  once again for your continu-
      ing  concern and  your  practical support.  When I  was
      transferred from  McLennan  County  on  June  9th  they
      refused to allow me to take any personal items with me.
      All my contact addresses, etc.  were taken from me  and
      have not been returned.

[sigh, no doubt, this means his Bible too, again. --Sdt]

      Still,  how are you?  There is much I  would very  much
      like to share  with you and others  regarding the Seven
      Seals. The events at Mt. Carmel and subsequent develop-
      ments, particularly internationally, has created a much
      better climate for belief.  Until these  events came to
      pass,  the prophetic writings have been falling on deaf
      ears.  The few individuals I  have been  able to  speak
      with are  now beginning to  perceive astonishing things
      from  the prophetic  texts.  This  generation finds  it
      virtually impossible to believe without seeing. This is
      indicative of its faithlessness, yet apparent religios-
      ity. Presently humanity does not even possess the basic
      concepts of faith upon which perception can take place.
      This was  the environment David was working under,  and
      to  some degree  remains  for many.  The communications
      media is conveying totally false information.  It is no
      wonder why  the judgment of  so many  is incorrect  and
      perverted.

      I understand  much more clearly why  the prophets wrote
      of our time.  Had they not done so, no one, I repeat no
      one,  would really know  the truth of what is going on.
      Truly,  truly  as John the Revelator  wrote,  the whole
      world would  be deceived  into  worshipping  the dragon
      (satan) -- Rev. 13.  It is only through the eyes of the
      prophets that the  truth of   this time  can be  known.
      This  fact I desire greatly to bring to your attention.
      My being locked up has proved quite a hindrance.

      On the subject of my being locked up. I mentioned above
      that my personal effects were taken from me.  I came to
      Coryell County jail with  nothing but my jail clothing.
      There  has been  no explanation  for this.  My material
      witness status has not been changed.  I am not charged,
      convicted,  nor are there any allegations made  against
      me.  I was  placed in  an open  cell with  indicted and
      convicted inmates.  Since then  I have been  subject to
      treatment as if I were a prisoner.  My lawyer  has made
      successive appeals  to  the magistrates  regarding  the
      legality of  my detention,  and the unacceptable condi-
      tions in which I am being held. These appeals have been
      met with delay and disappointment.

      Whilst the condition, of being kept 4 to a cell measur-
      ing 10 x 12 at McLennan County,  has improved somewhat,
      this has  only been replaced with other atrocities.  My
      present  cell has  an intercom  installed enabling  the
      jailer  to listen to  my conversations  at will.  Up to
      recently I had not been given knowledge of jail rules &
      responsibilities,  and act  in itself contrary  to jail
      policy.  Both my  incoming and  outgoing mail  is being
      opened and read.  I am somewhat  concerned whether this
      letter will  reach you.  Please, write and confirm.  My
      personal belongings are being withheld.  Stephen,  what
      I  am saying to  you are facts.  All the above are con-
      trary to jail policy,  not to mention my constitutional
      rights.  Despite  attempts  to  address  these  matters
      nothing has been done.  I have been incarcerated for in
      excess of 100 days,  and there does not seem to  be and
      end in sight.

      It's true  when I left Mt. Carmel,  David  appointed me
      spokes person  for  Our faith  and  philosophy.  I  too
      believe the reason  I am being detained and my communi-
      cations monitored is to prevent me from speaking out on
      the truth of Mt. Carmel.  Thus far those I  have spoken
      to are astonished at what is truly going on. There is a
      definite  attempt  on the  part  of  the government  to
      silence us and cover up the truth of Mt. Carmel.

      I have been endowed  with  a particular responsibility,
      and  given  certain freedoms  to communicate  The Truth
      regarding  Mt. Carmel.  Whilst The  World  continues to
      absorb the  events of Mt. Carmel,  they are  being pre-
      pared for  an unmistakable  Revelation yet to come. The
      deception presently enshrouding humanity  will be lift-
      ed. Without controversy, we know what is happening. The
      peoples of  The World  will be  furious when  they find
      out!

      The times we are in are increasingly serious.  Unfortu-
      nately, so many remain blind and asleep to what's going
      on.  Indeed  much  is being  done in  The Communication
      Media to  keep them that way.  Without doubt everything
      truly  pertaining  to Mt. Carmel  has its place  in the
      plans  and purposes  of God  for This World.  Without a
      knowledge of  The Seven Seals  it is impossible for the
      human mind to even begin to grasp these truths. Besides
      those  of us who remain  from Mt. Carmel,  the world is
      ignorant of  these truths  of  the Seven Seals  and the
      significance  of  Mt. Carmel.  There  are  many  things
      pertaining to this  existing earthly reality  the truth
      of which can only be seen  in light of the Seven Seals.

      I know not what this System is planning for me,  or how
      long  it intends  to hold  me like  this.  I am however
      aware of God's plans for me,  and indeed  for this Sys-
      tem. There is but a short time left. My God's method of
      teaching me patience, I conclude to be perfect.  I have
      been  able to  enjoy  many  long hours  of illuminating
      meditation.  Living the truths of what I believe in has
      been a unique and incredible experience.  I know under-
      stand from both sides  what it means to be  "written in
      the book."  This experience of being  a partaker of the
      divine nature is beyond human learning,  and incommuni-
      cable  by  conventional human  means  of perception.  I
      appreciate  more clearly  why  salvation has  to be  an
      individual thing.  It's an experience, not a theory.

      regards

      Livingstone

      ps. write soon


--- < so ends Livingstone's letter > ---

His gulag address remains:  

                      Livingstone Fagan
                      510 Leon St.
                      Gatesville, Tx 76528


I'll say more in another posting, but to close, permit me to bring to your
attention a few messages from Scripture -- for those who have eyes to see:

      Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a
      day of atonement:  it shall be an holy convocation unto you;
      and ye shall afflict your souls,  and offer an offering made
      by fire unto the LORD.  And ye shall do no work in that same
      day:  for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for
      you before the LORD your God. (Leviticus 23:27-28)

      Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on
      the tenth day of the seventh month,  in the day of atonement
      shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
      (Leviticus 25:9)

      For on that day shall the priest make an atonement  for you,
      to cleanse you,  that ye may be clean from all your sins be-
      fore the LORD.  (Leviticus 16:30)

      But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come,
      by a greater  and  more perfect  tabernacle,  not made  with
      hands, that is to say, not of this building;  Neither by the
      blood of goats and calves, but by his own  blood  he entered
      in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemp-
      tion for us. (Hebrews 9:11-12)

      And not only so,  but  we also joy  in God  through our Lord
      Jesus Christ,  by whom  we have now received  the atonement.
      (Romans 5:9)


   |          "Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee...
-- J --        Could my tears for ever flow, Could my zeal no langour know,
   |           These for sin could not atone; Thou must save, and Thou alone:
   | stephen   In my hand no price I bring, Simply to Thy cross I cling.
               Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee."

From: f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu (f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu AARC SFA State Univ.)
Subject: Another letter from Livingstone Fagan
Date: 10 Jul 93 20:08:35 CST


	After Stephen's post several days ago about the gross mistreatment
of Livingstone Fagan, I wrote Fagan a letter at the address provided
by Stephen, namely:
			Mr. Livingstone Fagan
			510 Leon
			Gatesville, Texas 76528

	Today I received a reply from Livingstone.  He confirmed
everything Stephen has been saying and more.  I am posting Livingstone's
reply to my letter in its entirety, being assured that the 'authorities'
have already read it as stated by Livingstone and as confirmed by the
scotch tape on the seal to which he probably would not have had access.
In my letter to Fagan I enclosed a self-addressed stamped envelope and
urged that he return it with or without enclosed message to assure me
of receipt of my letter.

	Remember, Fagan is not free to make his own statement to the
world.  Remember, he is only a 'material witness', held without bail
for over 100 days with no charges against him.  

	Livingstone Fagan's Cry of the Heart:

	------------

						7/7/93

	Dear Mr. Gaut

		I received your letter this morning.  Let me first
	say how comforting it was to hear from you.  Sadly very few
	Americans appear to be aware, or concerned about those noble
	principles upon which this once great nation was founded.

		Although I am not an American citizen I must
	acknowledge, it was while in America I came to appreciate
	the true meaning of Liberty as a principle.  I have since
	learnt that, in practice this nation no longer lives up to
	the principles it professes.  The events at Mt. Carmel and
	my subsequent unlawful detention bear testimony to a most
	distressing state of affairs for the world.  My greatest
	concern is that so many look to this nation for leaderhsip.
	Their trust is greatly betrayed and abused, and has been 
	for so long.  One had to literally experience this situation
	to know the real truth.

		Liberty is indeed the outpouring of life.  To be denied
	it, is to be denied life itself.  If there was ever a cause
	worth fighting for this is it.  That very substance called
	life is intimately connected with the pursuit of truth and
	conscience.  Mt. Carmel was about the pursuit of truth and
	conscience as it is in God.  Inspite of what is propagandized
	about us, in death and imprisonment our consciences remain
	free.

		We made a choice for truth, and we placed it above
	temporal existence.  My heart is moved with tears of restrained
	joy.  The result of having been shattered and torn by the
	experience of the grave injustice practiced against us.  Joe,
	it may not be apparent to you, but believe me, through us God
	spoke to the world.  The essence of this truth is the subject
	matter of the seven seals.  This is what Mt. Carmel was truly
	about, and what the authorities fear the public becoming
	aware of.  As a spokesperson for our faith, which incidentally
	is so thoroughly based in scripture it's uncanny, I am being
	prevented from speaking much as David was.

		The medium of ink on paper, and the use of telephone
	are far too restrictive to communicate the essence of the
	seven seals.  I sit sometimes in dispair at what is being
	denied to the American people, and indeed to the world.  We
	have been given something very special.  Something so special
	it is worth sacrificing anything for.

		In spite of the loss of my wife, and my mother.  Also
	my children being taken from me I hold no hate, or anger 
	against those who persecute us.  The memory of those who I
	love engender concern for the soul salvation of those responsible.
	If they would but consider the seven seals.

		Presently I am classified a 'material witness.'  I
	have been detained as such for over 100 days now, with no end
	in sight.  The conditions of my incarceration are no different
	to any other person convicted, indicted, or charged with a
	crime.  Whilst at McLennan County jail for the longest while,
	I was locked up in a 10 x 12 room 24 hours a day, 7 days a
	week with three other adults.  This was in maximum security.
	Our only real comfort was we shared the same status.  My
	present condition has improved with respect to space.  Never-
	theless my communication is severely monitored.  Incoming and
	outgoing mail is opened and read.  I have an intercom system 
	in my cell.  For the longest while I was denied access to a
	copy of the jail policy statement.  On two occasions I have
	been denied counsel, awaiting approval from the U.S. Marshalls'
	Office.  My access to relatives abroad has been severely
	restrited.  The list goes on.

		My consolation is in the faith I hold.  The power of
	the seven seals has proven to me its capacity to endure
	whatever hunanity throws at it.  Let me further say Joe, you
	will find our beliefs are not as dissimilar as you might
	think.  Certainly our understanding of the basic rights from
	God appear to be in harmony.  There is so much more.

		Once again my appreciation for your concern and
	practical support.  Please write to confirm receipt of this
	letter.

	  	Regards

		Livingstone


From: B645ZAW@UTARLG.UTA.EDU (STEPHEN TICE)
Subject: Livingstone Charged Today (7-16) -- 4 months after being jailed
Date: 16 Jul 1993 16:54:11 -0500

Having tried to post this several times via news, without success,
(there seems to be a problem with the local system), I'm sending 
it by alt-route. Please, repost for me on appropriate newsgroups, 
and elsewhere.  Thanks  -- Sdt

---
 
I just spoke with Livingstone Fagan's attorney in Waco,
who told me that he was charged today (7-16) with Con-
spiracy to Commit Murder, and Possesion of a Fire Arm.

Let me make it clear. Livingstone came out of Mt Carmel 
in mid-march, and has been held through april, may, june,
and to the middle of july -- without being charged --
*till now*. 

He's in McLennan County Jail again, until they decide where 
to stick him next. He can still receive mail wherever they
put him, but you'd best send paper and an self-addressed
stamped envelope if you want to correspond. The McLennan 
County address is:

	McLennan County Jail
	510 Columbus
	Waco, Tx 76701

Haven't a clue where they'll stick him next, but no doubt
they'll take their time about it. For those who care, please, 
send him a short postcard for encouragement.

I myself believe Livingstone Fagan is a religious prisoner, 
who is being made an example of -- as a warning to all those 
who do not bow down to the system. 

Please pray for him, that God grant him forbearance.

And pray for those who know righteous hate, that God fill their 
vision with glory and love, and patience enough to await the 
direction of our Lord, Jesus Christ.


   |           "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but 
-- J --         rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, 
   |            Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
   | stephen   
               "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
		
		(Romans 12, note verse 9, cp. Psalms 139, note v.22)


From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject:  Government Harassment  //  re: Livingstone Charged
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 06:19:00 GMT


Here's an update.

Livingstone called me tonite, and let me know that the hearing
continues monday. Seems the Judge hasn't bought the STORY that
"someone (un-named) supposedly saw LF with a gun shooting at 
BATF troops from what used to be the Mt. Carmel center tower," 
(which is now the basic accusation being levied by the govern-
ment prosecutors -- 4 months after jailing him as a witness).


So he's definitely at McLennan County Jail through Monday.


It reminds me of when they charged the 77 and 75 year old ladies
who came out of Mt. Carmel with conspiracy, later dropped.


Is this part of what federal prosecutors are paid to do -- harassment???

If so, it sure explains why some lawyers are such a pain in the ass, 
along with bill collectors, and some lobbyists and activists. 


Considering the floodlights and noriega-noise type psy-ops used on 
all the Davidians, I wonder how much harassment the "negotiators" 
heaped on Koresh and Schneider through the phone??


And while I can stand Gays using "In Your Face Tactics," Operation
Rescue "Publicity Stunts," the Klan "Burning Crosses," and even war
protestors "Burning the Flag" (in the interest of freedom of speech),
I think the IRS, BATF, FBI, or even the local police using the same
methods against civilians -- in the paid performance of their duties 
-- is pure BULL SHIT! Especially, when it goes on to physical methods
such as being confined, or constraining access.


From the beginning, Waco has been an exercise in Government Harassment
-- against folks on the fringe. Which would all unravel if the larger 
public realized that anyone who's not "pro-government" is on the fringe
-- in the eyes of the feds.


The big problem is that harassment is risky, and when mistakes are made, 
harassment too easily becomes persecution, injury, or manslaughter. And
were it not that some people are justed twisted or wicked -- which is why
we have law-enforcement anyway -- I'd be ready to believe Waco was just 
a mistake. 

But there are good people everywhere, and evil -- even in government.


Harassment is bad enough, but if crimes were committed by the BATF, FBI,
or even the Justice Department -- who would bring justice now??


   |
-- J --       "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape 
   |           the damnation of hell? (Jesus, Matthew 23:33, note context)
   | stephen 


From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject: Re: Government Harassment  //  re: Livingstone Charged
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 06:01:00 GMT

In article <CAD1Ey.7CF@trystero.com>, 
bobz@trystero.com (Bob Zwarick) writes...

>In article <18JUL199301191205@utarlg.uta.edu> 
>b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)...

>>Livingstone called me tonite, and let me know that the hearing
>>continues monday. Seems the Judge hasn't bought the STORY that
>>"someone (un-named) supposedly saw LF with a gun shooting at 
>>BATF troops from what used to be the Mt. Carmel center tower...

While talking with him on the phone, I also confirmed that he came
out of Mt. Carmel on the 23rd of March. So that's 118 days to date
locked up in jail -- 1st as a witness, then as an illegal alien, 
and now they're trying to accuse him of conspiracy. 

>>From the beginning, Waco has been an exercise in Government Harassment
>>-- against folks on the fringe. Which would all unravel if the larger 
>>public realized that anyone who's not "pro-government" is on the fringe
>>-- in the eyes of the feds.

I can't overemphasize how risky it is to harass anyone anytime because 
of the likelyhood of mistakes. It certainly should *not* be the practice 
of government law enforcement. And it's worse when the victim hasn't 
been even been convicted of a crime. =But= it's pure outright *evil* 
when such methods are used on innocent children, mothers and fathers. 

Remember the storm troopers, the phones being isolated, water/electricity
/sewage cut, childrens' bicycles and atv's crushed, incoming radio/tv broad-
casts jammed, search lights on all night, sadistic-noise blaring out, 
mock raids, snipers, tear-gas, building knocked down, fire.

Why should I believe that similar methods were not being used by the 
negotiators? The harassment escalated a step at a time to outright 
attrocity -- a step at a time -- at best because of mistakes. 

Similarly, locking up witnesses in jail for months, while treating them 
like criminals, depriving them of personal effects, moving them from 
prison to prison, and who knows what else, is exactly the same sick 
twisted logic as physical harassment. Not burying their dead is also 
the same. If they had any property or financial resources left -- no 
doubt these would be confiscated, impounded, or seized (as evidence). 

Others of the "surviors" including Sheila Martin, widow of attorney
Wayne Martin, who not only lost her husband and two of her children 
in the inferno, but now is having to go through custody hearings to 
get her remaining children back.

What has and is being done to the innocents of Mt Carmel by the authori-
ties is simply perverse.

The message is clear: "If you don't kowtow, it will be you next."

The People of Mt Carmel were sacrificed as a warning -- loud and clear.

>>And while I can stand Gays using "In Your Face Tactics," Operation
>>Rescue "Publicity Stunts," the Klan "Burning Crosses," and even war
>>protestors "Burning the Flag" (in the interest of freedom of speech),
>>I think the IRS, BATF, FBI, or even the local police using the same
>>methods against folks -- in the paid performance of their duties -- 
>>is pure BULL SHIT!

>>Harassment is bad enough, but if crimes were committed by the BATF, 
>>FBI, or even the Justice Department -- who would bring justice now??

Neither the bureacracy nor the administration can afford the bad press
in a spending sense. How tempting it must be to cover-up, bull-doze,
tear-down, stall, and gradually inch over that fine-line between "CYA" 
and "SRC" stinkin-rotten-crime. Too bad "investigative reporting" is a 
movie myth. All this has shown pretty clearly that the press is pro-system 
too.

>Though I stand pretty far from the Davidian belief structure, I cannot
>in all good consciousness condone the actions of the BATF, Justice
>Dept et al. I cannot understand the lack of concern by the public.

>Bob Zwarick                          

If I weren't a follower of Christ, in the hopes that some of those who
caused this horrible attrocity would repent and do right, then the pic-
tures we all have seen of the mushroom clouds of a fusion-bomb explo-
sion would quite well depict my personal rage.

Nothing I can imagine though could come close to being one fo the guilty
standing before the JUDGE of ALL JUDGES -- when the 7 Thunders Sound. 

   |
-- J --          See Revelation Chapter 10
   |
   | stephen 



From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith  //  pt 1 of 3
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:41:00 GMT



   Transcript of phone conversation between myself and Livingstone
   Fagan from last Saturday evening, July 24th. LF is the spokesman
   David Koresh appointed to explain their faith to the public. 

   As best I can tell, He is being held in jail by the federal 
   authorities as a religious prisoner, and an example to others
   of the harassment and violence which will be used against 
   those who don't bow down to the system.


   --- Beginning of Part 1 of 3 ---


   l: Mt Carmel is a  situation right now where, we're not effectively here
   to call people to accept the truth which we possess. We're here to  call
   people to make a decision.

   s: ok

   l: There's been  a lot sensationalizing, and distorting the  story about
   Mt Carmel. In a sense that's good, because it will capture the insincere
   in their own  craftiness, which  allows people  to come  to a  decision.
   Which is just my point -- about ....

   s: May I point out something?

   l: Go ahead.

   s: It's very obvious to me when they [the  authorities] bull-doze, burn,
   propagandize, and cover-up an issue -- it's being obscured -- it's being
   "fuzzied-up."

   l: Precisely.  But at the same time,  that you are able to... ahmm,  see
   through all of that,  and realize what the government is doing...  there
   is a large class of personalities who don't want to know.

   s: That's right.

   l:  In fact, irrespective of what God would do, to bring those individu-
   als, individual minds,  to a knowledge  of The  Truth, they would  still
   resist  it, because  they feel  that -- "by  remaining in  an indecisive
   position... ahmm, they will hold  God in a position where The  World can
   not  come to  a conclusion,  because God  can  not judge  without people
   making a decision." They *must* be in a decisive position.

   s: ok

   l: So, ahmm... they will make a decision,  whether they  know it  or not
   against  Mt Carmel,  because of the  distortion and  the sensationalized
   reporting. That has been a very prominent observation.

   s: Yes, in everybody I've encountered.

   l: That's right.  So, ahh... the reporting itself is very much a part of
   the  process -- the decision making process. Even though it's distorted,
   it's  not  something that  will  ultimately stop,  if you  understand my
   meaning.

   s: ok

   l:That's not  to say I have  no sympathy for people.  But if individuals
   are  not prepared  to have  sympathy for  themselves,  then it creates a
   rather difficult situation.

   s: Ok. Speak slowly and clearly please.

   l: Yes. It creates a rather difficult situation. So at this point, ahmm,
   decisions are being made, either for or against the truth that Mt Carmel
   *represents*.

      Of course,  *we* have to experience the situation that we are experi-
   encing at present...

   s: Yes, I understand.

   l: ...which  is not in itself intolerable.  It's bearable, since  we are
   seeing it in the light of the greater purposes of God, so that maybe you
   can  understand and  endure  the process.  Ahh,  but what  I desire  for
   individuals who are sincere... (And I have received letters from many. I
   mean only this  morning a person wrote  to me expressing concern,  ahmm,
   encouragement, and ahh, personal support. Which I found to be extremely,
   ahm, how shall I say... soothing.) <chuckles>

   s: Yeah, I'm sure. It's nice to get the feedback.

   l: That's right!

   s:  But, at  the same  time I  feel there's  a strong  desire to  have a
   speeding up  the process.  So for their welfare, I've taken the opportu-
   nity to contact particular individuals  of this group, in order to... to
   try and explain, and highlight the fact, that we have a genuine theolog-
   ical foundation for the position we hold.

      Ahm, I am naturally limited; rather, we are naturally limited, as far
   as we can go with that.  Not that God is depending upon this in order to
   accomplish His purpose.  I think,  the world-wide media  coverage of  Mt
   Carmel has already accomplished that.  It's just a matter of waiting for
   people to be fully decided in their own minds.

   s: ok

   l: So this is what we are dealing with at this time. The opportunity you
   afford me,  to actually communicate  over the fax and  the computer net-
   works, ahm,  some items of doctrine,  like the last article I wrote, and
   there are some letters I have, that I would like to present to you...

   s: ok

   l:  ...which may well benefit the sincere.  Because, quite frankly I can
   only see that  it's the sincere that would be  operating along the lines
   that you're working along. You follow?

   s: Yes. You know why? The rest are hard-hearted, hard-headed...

   l: Precisely.

   s: ...and jaded...

   l: Exactly.

   s: The Apocalypse would not  have been put in  the language that it  was
   put in...

   l: Uh huh.

   s: ...or it wouldn't be played out in the events it's going to be played
   out in,  if  it weren't  for the  fact that's  what's going  to have  to
   happen, to get through to a lot of people.

   l: Ah, it's a sad situation. I wish it were not this way.

   s: And by the way it's something that comes from people having free will.

   l: And, nobody really, not even God can effectively overrun that.

   s: Nor *will* overrun it anyway...

   l: Exactly.

   s: ...as in the Promises of God. Go ahead.

   l:  So eventually  what we're going  to see  is that  in the conclusion,
   *everyone* will acknowledge God's justice.

   s: We can cite Scripture, sure -- "Every knee shall bow,"
   [Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10].

   l: Right.

      So  at this present moment in time, the  issues as they relate to the
   process of salvation, has been clearly prevented.

   s: The "what" of salvation?

   l: The process.

   s: The process, go ahead.

   l: Ahmm, there is another area I would like to direct the attention of a
   lot of...  or at  least  those individuals  I  have the  opportunity  to
   communicate with, and that's to deal with the  issue of "present truth."
   I don't know whether you've had  the opportunity to read an article by a
   guy called, Richard K. Hoskins, of "The Hoskins Report?"

   s: No.

   l: It  would be very  useful if you could,  because I think  he's done a
   very,  very good job  of "capturing" the psychological  warfare that the
   United States  government  practiced upon us.  And  has been  practicing
   through the medium of communications,  the *public* medium of communica-
   tions, for at least the last 75 to 80 years.

   s: ok

   l: It's an extremely  interesting article.  It's entitled, "Chairman Mao
   and the Massacre in Waco,"  published on  May 3rd, 1993.  As I say,  the
   editor's name is Richard Kelly Hoskins.

   s: Where was it published?

   l: Essentially it's his  own publication,  I haven't  actually got it...
   give me a moment and I'll get you his address.


   s: I can probably find the publication from my...

   l: Right,  he's the  editor, it's called  "The Hoskins Report."  And the
   issue is May 3rd, 1993. I think it's number 224.

   s: ok

   l: There's another publication as well, by ahh, Project 93. I don't know
   if you've every come across that yet?

   s: Uhh, vaguely, go ahead.

   l:  Well, what's so interesting about  Project 93 is an article entitled
   "... ever wondered"  (???), actually it's a booklet, and  it's entitled,
   "Ever Wondered Why?"

   s: "As I wondered why" ??

   l: "Ever Wondered Why?"

   s: "Ever Wondered Why?"

   l: Yeah and it covers developments in the financial arena as they relate
   to  the United States,  in it's alliance  with  the United  Nations.  It
   brings to view a very, very important development that's taking place at
   this moment, which  correlates to events  spoken of  by the prophet,  in
   Revelation 13 through chapter 17.

      I make  reference to this  simply because of  the fact of ahmm,  as I
   mentioned,  the fact of  Present Truth,  which  identifies where  we are
   along the process of salvation.  I find that this book by,  ahm, Project
   93, actually  affords a beautiful  grasp of the  conceptual... the  con-
   cepts... the conceptual background to understand those  texts in Revela-
   tion 13 and 17.

   s: 13 & 17 ??

   l: That's right.

   s: ok

   l: Which refers to, in chapter 17,  remember the ahmm, 7th and 8th  ahh,
   beast? [see  Rev.  17:11] And  in Revelation  chapter 13  the two horned
   breast, and the image to the beast that was created?

   s: But you mentioned the 7th and the 8th beasts?

   l: That's right, in revelation chapter 17.

   s: ok

   l: Those  issues are to do with Present Truth,  and I would like to have
   been able to get in more depth into some of the symbolic language, which
   prior to my leaving Mt Carmel on March 23rd,  I had spent some time with
   David, discussing.

   s: ok

   l: And I can  see the reasons why,  even more clearly now,  as I see the
   developments taking place, in the international arena.

   s: Say again that last part.

   l: Yes. As I see the developments currently taking place in the interna-
   tional arena.

   s: In the international arena.

   l: I would like to be able to discuss those with you in detail.

      Ah, one  of the things I want is  that ah, the terms be accurate, but
   even  in context it  does not necessarily communicate  the spirit behind
   the words that are written.

   s: Let's talk about that.

   l: That is very important.  That is, it's because of The Spirit, that is
   through The Spirit,  that one receives context the context,  for what is
   written. You follow?

   s: Receives the context?

   l: Yeah.  The Spirit illuminates the written word.  And  when I write  a
   book,  or when  I write an article  --  a person reads that in  light of
   their own understanding. Do you follow?

   s: Yes.

   l:  It is very difficult to try and separate one's own perceptions,  and
   to try and grasp the perceptions and meanings behind the words,  senten-
   ces and paragraphs, of the letter. Unfortunately it is very difficult to
   bridge that. There is that limitation in language, that makes it so dif-
   ficult to address that.

   s: That's  because you can't speak  with what we  have available to  us,
   which is the indwelling Spirit. [cf. John 16:13]

   l: Exactly.

   s:  The requirement there  is for  The Groom,  (The Husband),  to do the
   speaking.

   l: Exactly.

      How does one deal with that? I really don't know other than direct...
   direct  communication.   As you can see,  my present  situation prevents
   that.  So, the articles I write, the information that I transmit,  is as
   limited  as possible,  yet is  ahmm, I  was going to  say "as  potent as
   possible," but that's very difficult to assess.

   s: Yes.

   l: So, what I hope is that (as I continue to write articles), my hope is
   that people  will continue  to respond with  any question they  feel may
   arise from those articles,  and I can try it by first of all understand-
   ing the premise that they're coming from.



 PLEASE NOTE:

 Please, use the postal services, and I suggest short one page letters with
 sase included,  or a phone number for a collect call.  Livingstone is pre-
 sently imprisoned at McLennan County Jail, 510 Columbus, Waco, Tx. 76701



   s: Livingstone, it would help  to start out with the ah, simple "yes/no"
   [questions],  that nobody seems willing  to approach you with,  for  in-
   stance [concerning] the ah,  what first and foremost must be on a lot of
   people's minds is:  "Who is Jesus Christ to you?", "Was David Koresh the
   Messiah?" These types of questions.

   l: Alright.

   s: That is the way to catch their attention.

   l: Ok, I understand that, ah, that concept.  The thing is,that even that
   presents it's own problems. Let me try to address that question that you
   ask as a ahm... means of identifying some of the problems.

      David Koresh being Christ.  The  first question I would  be forced to
   ask you is what is your understanding of Christ?

   s: My understanding of Christ is the physical manifestation of God.

   l: Right, indeed that's true, God in the flesh. Ok.  The  physical mani-
   festation -- God in the Flesh.  Part of that concept is of the Melchize-
   dek priesthood, that ahm, Paul sought to address, in the Hebrews.

   s: Yes. [Heb. 5-7]

   l: Which Psalms 110 develops. [and Genesis 14:18]

   s: Psalms 110, you say?

   l: 110 right. Which goes back to the time of Abraham.

   s: ok

   l: 2000 years ago there was also a manifestation of that same priesthood
   when Christ came into the earth. But as John the apostle pointed out, it
   was impossible  for the darkened  human mind to *comprehend*  [cf.  John
   1:5]  this reality,  because Christ is really  a principle,  The Word of
   God, or God's thoughts expressed.

   s: Yes!

   l: And  the problem here is that humanity,  in it's  dullness of percep-
   tion, finds it extremely difficult to appreciate or comprehend that. And
   that was demonstrated 2000 years ago which resulted in his death,  which
   from my premise,  having been a recipient of  the knowledge contained in
   the 7-SEALS, I conclude the same thing occurred at Mt Carmel.

      So, when faced with an issue  in respect to that question, I can only
   address it  from the premise  from which you  come from.  I can  present
   something...

   s: Then let me help.

   l: Go ahead.

   s: In  the sense, we know  that from Revelation 19,  that  "The Marriage
   Supper  of the  Lamb"  is referred to.  The question is,  "Who  is being
   married?" We know in Revelation 19 that The Word of God is The Lamb.

   l: Precisely.

   s: So, who's the Church?  The Church appears in Revelation 12.  In other
   places in the New Testament,  we know that the Church is made  up of the
   Body of  believers.  Now here's a mystery  --  the Head of the Church is
   Christ...

   l: Uh huh.

   s:  ...however, Christ is also the First Born of that union.  That union
   is between The Word and The Spirit, (elsewhere called The Comforter).

   l: Right.

   s: Now we are given in Acts,  The Spirit,  to indwell, as a gift,  if we
   ask, by God. And it comes to us as "The Nurturer."

   l: Ok, ok. Let me hold that, let me hold that point. Let's develop that.

   s: Go for it.

   l:  We are given that  indwelling Spirit if  we ask for it, ok. What is
   your perception of that indwelling Spirit in terms of, "when you ask for
   it."  Most people identify it as some kind of feeling.

   s: Most do. They expect to get the tingles, or the shivers, or some sort
   of high.

   l: Exactly.  But the truth about it is,  that spirit was the Spirit that
   motivated Christ when he was upon the earth 2000 years ago.

   s: That spirit is... ??

   l: The Spirit that was in the flesh 2000 years ago.

   s: ok

   l: Now that Spirit, in Luke chapter 23,  when Christ was crucified, that
   Spirit was  *commended* into the  hands of The Father.  [Luke 23:46] You
   follow?

   s: Yes! Into The Word.

   l: Into the... right.

      So, in Revelation  chapter 4, when John gets  taken to heaven... yes?
   He goes to heaven,  a door is opened,  he sees a judgement.  He sees One
   who sat on the Throne. Now, the one that sat on the throne is surrounded
   by 24 elders.  Now, in chapter 5 it highlights that in the right hand of
   the One who sat on the Throne  --  is The Book  --  sealed with 7 seals.
   This  correlates  with Luke  when  he said,  "Father,  into thy  hands I
   commend my spirit."


   Telephone company recording: "ATTENTION, ONE MINUTE REMAINING."

   [Though LF calls me collect, the calls time out after 30 minutes
   --Sdt]


   s: You wanta call back?

   l: Yes.

      So, what we have there was that,  that Spirit, which Christ sought to
   express --  which was rejected  -- was commended  into the  hands of The
   Father.   And then you go up to the [tape garbled, sounds like "sentry"]
   as John did,  we see  on the right hand  --  the Book, Sealed with Seven
   Seals. So that Spirit is now written. Do you follow?

   s: The Spirit is now embodied in writing?

   l: Right. In written form -- The Book.

   s: The question is, "What is The Book?" Is it The Book of Life?

   l: [both talking, tape garbled]

   l:  In Revelation 22, after  The Lamb in chapter 6,  begins to loose The
   Seals, it states that He's going to come to earth with that Book, sealed
   with 7 seals. That's His reward...

   s: ok

   l: ...to give to every man.

      This is where Mt Carmel came in,  in that  David  Koresh was teaching
   the  book.  The question  is,  "What is the  Book?"  Well, in Revelation
   chapter ahh....


   <line goes dead>


From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith  //  pt 2 of 3
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:44:00 GMT



   Transcript of phone conversation between myself, and Livingstone
   Fagan from Saturday evening, July 24th.


   --- Beginning of Part 2 of 3 ---


   s: ...Operator I accept the charges.

      Yes, I'm here Livingstone.

   l:  Right. We're dealing with The Book. When Christ came 2000 years ago,
   that Spirit of God, which is really  the expressed thought of God in the
   flesh, was made available to mankind in a flesh form, something they can
   identify with. When Christ was killed that Spirit was commended into the
   hands of The Father. John looked up to see the judgement, and saw in the
   hand of The Father, a Book, sealed with 7 seals.

      In  Revelation 22, He's to return again, with the intention of commu-
   nicating the contents of that Spirit. Now that Spirit is Life -- Eternal
   Life. That's what they rejected at The Cross.

      Now, the thing about it is,  that the issue is,  "What is that Book?"
   Well the whole scene of Christ's returning  is depicted  in summary form
   in Revelation, chapter 10-11.

   s: Summary form?

   l: In summary form, yes. The actual details of it, is the subject matter
   of the 7 Seals,  but it's summarized in those 2 chapters,  10 and 11, of
   Revelation.  You see an Angel,  a strong Angel, that comes to the earth,
   with a Book -- opened.  That's of course,  the Book that was in the hand
   of The Father, in Revelation chapter 5.  Now, in the 7th verse, ahmm, it
   is stated clearly that the voice of the 7th angel,  when  He shall begin
   to sound,  the mystery of God,  which is the content of the 7-Seals. And
   note the statement, "the mystery of God."  Everybody seeks to know  God,
   but the  mystery is contained in the 7-Seals.  The  mystery of what  God
   really is.  That is the essential knowledge that is missing from humani-
   ty.

      Now,  as I stated,  the voice  of the  7th Angel,  when He begins  to
   sound, the mystery of God will be *finished*...

   s: Yes. I recall.

   l: ...as He hath declared, to his servants, The Prophets. Do you follow?

   s: I understand.

   l: Now  the content of that  Book was already declared  to The Prophets.
   The 7-Seals, if you go back to the  summary that is given of the  Seals,
   as  the Lamb  opens them  in  chapter 6 onwards;  you  will  see certain
   information.

      Now,  as I mentioned before to  you,  people have sought to interpret
   that information. Do you follow?

   s: With their human understanding...

   l: Exactly.

   s: ...rather than with the Mind of God, which is Scripture.

   l: Precisely. Yes, you got the point.

      The fact is  that only One  can  open  that information  in the first
   place.  The Lamb, yes??  Mankind can not do it,  because  you're dealing
   with information which is synonymous with the Mind of God.

      Now can  the human mind comprehend  the things of God?  Being in it's
   humanity,  it's  impossible.  Therefore it  has to  be revealed  to him.
   Hence, the only way it can be done is for Christ, or rather Christ being
   The  Word,  the expressed thoughts  of God,  to come  into the  realm of
   humanity.

   s: Now let me... let me, I don't want to throw you off, but I do want to
   ask two very important questions.

   l: Go ahead.

   s: When Christ... when Jesus came, Jesus, as it was written  --  He made
   that reference very, very often -- "as it is written"...

   l: Precisely.

   s: He knew from early on, from a very young time -- The Scriptures...

   l: Precisely.

   s: ...very well. The Word indwelled Him.

   l: Precisely, yes.

   s: And,  this is  a lesson.  The lesson  we find that  also happened  to
   Koresh.  The parallel is there. The Word working in Koresh...

   l: Exactly!  As you're  bringing it up,  you're bringing it out.  Christ
   could only quote  Scripture 2000 years ago.  And a lot of the Scriptures
   have to be received  purely by faith,  even though at the time, they did
   not meet the perceptions of the human  mind.  Because,  really they were
   written from the premise of the eternal mind. You follow?

   s: Oh, yes!

   l: So humanity can not of itself comprehend them.  What humanity does is
   to receive The Scripture by faith. Having, receiving...In the process of
   receiving a  progressive knowledge of  the Revealed Truth,  declared  as
   Scriptural -- the human mind will be  elevated to the place where it can
   comprehend *over time* that information.

   s: Yes. There's a gestation period.

   l:  Precisely.  Humanity has  actually  been taken  out of  it's *human*
   thinking,  and elevated to the divine thinking,  which is what 2nd Peter
   talks about in 1-4. Through the knowledge of God...

   s: You say in 2nd Peter 1...

   l: 2nd Peter chapter 1 verses 1-4.

   s: ok  [The Promises of God]

   l: Through the knowledge of God, as revealed in the Scriptures, humanity
   becomes a partaker of the divine nature. What a person thinks -- is what
   he is.

   s: Ok, I hear that. Now, I'm wondering this, ok?

   l: Go ahead.

   s: It's clear to me that there is a marriage.

   l: Right.

   s: In The Marriage of The Lamb...

   l: Ok.

   s:  ... here the Bride comes. Now to me, (this may be my mind), in other
   words I may  be reading into it,  or I may be inspired in this,  I don't
   know.  But as best I can tell, The Marriage of The Word, The Marriage of
   The  Lamb (same  entity)  --  with The Spirit,  The Bride,  which is The
   Comforter -- is accomplished in each one of us.

   l: Right. As you received, *received* that Spirit.

      Let me go back  to show you where  the basis of  that concept of  the
   marriage comes from.

   s: ok

   l: It goes back to the book of Genesis. When God created Adam,  Adam was
   a lifeless form, alright?

   s: Yes, clay! Dust of the earth.

   l: Exactly. What gave him life, was when the Breath of God, entered him.
   That breath  joined with the clay -- in the actual marriage -- the prin-
   ciple. You follow?

   s: ok

   l: Now...ahm,  The Breath itself, or The Light,  (which is what  John is
   referring to in John chapter 1),  the light  that lighteth everyman that
   cometh into the world, is to have an expression.  It's not just light as
   we see light.  There is detail to it.  There is form, feature.  There is
   ah,  how can I explain it?  It has a  definition; it has meaning, it has
   expression, it's got autonomy. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

   s: I think I do.  I would not have put it only in terms of light,  which
   is a type of signal...

   l: Uh huh.

   s: ...but the word,  which is also a type of signal.  For instance, when
   some very powerful statement is made, such as "Love your enemies"... Ok?

   l: Uh huh.

   s: And that thought, that word, that signal, orders,  I mean structures,
   how people act.

   l: Exactly.

   s: It structures matter itself.

   l: Precisely.

   s: Without that ordering we'd be just like the Moon...

   l: Ok.

   s: ...pure dust.

   l: Ok. So you can see  that the Word expressed has ahmm --  creative po-
   tential. It has ahhh, I'm still struggling to find  a word to express...
   Well  if you  look  at humanity,  as  separate from  divinity,  (because
   really,  what humanity fails to  appreciate at  any given  time  is that
   there is an element of divinity in it)...

   s: That's right.

   l: ... it's just that  --  it's been *blocked*. It's not allowed to take
   expression, or give  expression within the human personage.  Had it been
   allowed to do so, then humanity would conform to it.

   s: "Conform" is a very telling word there.

   l: Oh, <chuckles>. When I say conform,  the reason why it is not allowed
   in humanity en masse to give general expression, is because of the human
   free will.

   s: Exactly.

   l: The Mind of God, or The Will of God, is expressed in that word. Human
   beings have the freedom to actually allow or surrender it's will, to the
   divine will, or they can  continue in the light of their own understand-
   ing, which is really darkness.  It extends purely from the clay.

   s: It extends from the...?

   l: The clay.  The body, the lusts of the  body.  Most of  the reasoning,
   most of the  constructions and institutions established by man,  are not
   in  themselves possessed of  anything divine.  They are  basically based
   upon the lusts of man;  like for example, there are 3 major  ones: food,
   reproduction and [maintaining] life. Most of the institutions that exist
   in society are based purely upon these 3 lusts.

   s: Yes, very much so.  But this  then is what we  expect of an  organism
   with a 5 pound brain -- 5 pounds of meat.

   l: Right, exactly. <chuckles> Exactly.

      But  there is  a divine...  the ability  for a divine  element within
   humanity.  Unfortunately  in  this  day and  age,  with  its degeneracy,
   debaseness,  that element  has been  blocked,  (and it's unable  to give
   expression to itself), somehow internally, from within man. And it's for
   that reason as  it is now,  there was a necessity for it to come  on the
   outside.  Do you follow?

   s: Yes, as a leadership principle.

   l: Precisely. To draw men to a knowledge of that which is within. That's
   why  Christ kept on saying, "The Kingdom of God is  within you."  And He
   was trying  to bring  it out,  to bring man  to an appreciation  of that
   principle.

      The fact is, to be quite frank -- God is thought!

   s: Ok. You say, "God is thought?"

   l: Thought!  And the expression of that thought is  THE WORD,  which  is
   Christ.

   s: ok

   l: And the manifestation of,  the embodiment of, thought expressed -- is
   man.

   s: ok

   l: So for man to throw out God,  is really actually dishonoring himself.
   In the  process, you  can see, you'd  become debased,  degenerate to the
   level of beasts, which is really what we have today.

   s: Yes! No Spirit indwelling.

   l: That's right!

   s: Like a machine, there's nothing there.

   l: Exactly.

   s: Like a whore, there's nobody home.

   l: Right.

   s: Like a mercenary, who do things just for the external...

   l: Exactly.

   s: ok

   l: And until the Thoughts of God,  once again re-establish in  man those
   Thoughts,  (and those Thoughts are written  in The Book,  sealed with 7-
   Seals)... until those Thoughts are re-established then man does not have
   God within him. All he has is the potential...

   s: ok

   l: ... to have God.

      Now,  that's what the  7-Seals were designed to address.  That's what
   that Spirit  that Christ was trying  to give 2000 years ago,  which  was
   rejected... and  bear in  mind in  Luke 23, I  think verse 34,  "Father,
   forgive them;  for they *know* not what they do."  They're in a state of
   ignorance.

   s: Yes.

   l: And until they receive that Spirit which was commended in the hand of
   the Father,  they can  not have  that element of God within them,  which
   become the directing principle of humanity. So, then what happens is you
   begin to have external government.

      All men were supposed to be governed from within  --  they were their
   own kings and  priests,  but now we have an external form of government,
   like what you can see in the United States probably,  and what is devel-
   oping on an international scale, via the United Nations,  is oppressive.
   And there is no way to stop that.  Not until that Spirit,  which is what
   God is, that Thought, enters humanity.

      But  the current  thinking of  man,  which is  born of  the  flesh is
   temporal,  and  when the  body dies  it  will die too.  But  the eternal
   Thought  of God  (which is the Spirit which Christ sought to give, which
   is placed  in the hand of The Father in the form of The Book Sealed With
   7-Seals)  is  eternal.  To receive God  you are actually  receiving  The
   Eternal, an eternal spirit which enables you to live forever.

      The problem  here is that uhm,  rather  not the problem,  but whether
   someone can be saying[?] that more closely,  ahh,  the life substance of
   humanity is actually the thought of God, in man.  It's your thought that
   gives  you motivation, your life-substance.  It is your thought,  rather
   the more thought you have, the more life you have. You follow?

   s:  So far, so good.  I'm curious about,  I know  that in a union,  in a
   marriage union...

   l: Uh huh.

   s: ... the same flesh must join, ok?

   l: Right.

   s: So, I'm comfortable with the...

   l: Let me try to address that point.

   s: ok

   l: The spirit that is in man,  is that which is separate from the Spirit
   of God,  God's Spirit.  And it's born... the human spirit is born,  as I
   mentioned, of the lusts of man,  and is essentially a homosexual spirit.
   Do you follow what I'm saying? It's of itself.

   s: It's of self, yes.

   l: That's right it's homosexual.

   s: Yes, it's for-self, of-self, yes.

   l:  Ahh,  what you might have had a tendency to do,  is  uhhh... you see
   that  selfishness expressed in man,  and everything that is  consumed on
   this earth (even other people) is consumed for the purpose of self.

      Now, the Spirit of God in man predominating (which is really the Will
   of God) --

        facilitates trust, and all those other positive virtues
        (above all *selflessness*, as was demonstrated on the
        Cross and also here) as demonstrated here at Mt Carmel,

        (where the people were prepared to surrender their existence
        for the Truth which they hold),

   -- is that Spirit which is associated with God as a Thought,
   guiding their thoughts.

   s: The world will ask do you mean suicide?

   l:  Well,  we've got to go back to Christ.  I can address that simply by
   saying *no*,  it was  not suicide.  But  I'd like you  to see it  in the
   context of Christ 2000 years ago.

      Now Christ knew that His course of action was eventually going to end
   up with him being killed, in some way, shape or form.  Because the capi-
   tal form of punishment at that time was the Cross, it was the inevitable
   one that was going to be chosen. Can you see that?

   s: Yes.

   l: Would  you conclude from that,  that Christ was  the harbinger of his
   own suicide?

   s: If He knew full well that if He continued in the path He was in, yes,
   it would result in His...

   l: His death.

   s: Yes, His death.

   l: Do you conclude that His was a suicide from that situation?

   s: You understand the world want's to see it as a suicide because that's
   a "self-motive"?!

   l:  Precisely.  And that's what they should have  concluded about Christ
   2000 years ago, yes??  From the same premise.

      Well, the truth about  it is that I know  that  the sincere of  heart
   will be able to see,  of a truth,  that this has got nothing to do  with
   suicide.  The thing about it is, that along about 2000 years ago, say in
   1st century Palestine, had they received Christ,  then He would not have
   had to die, yes?

   s: Oh, absolutely.

   l: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." That forgive-
   ness  would not have been needed,  because they would have received what
   Christ had to give them.

      It's a similar situation here.  I mean David sought to present the 7-
   Seals, that is clear to the sincere, they can see that.

   s: Some people will have a hard time  with seeing the 7-Seals as being a
   separate book than the Bible.

   l: I did not conclude it to be a separate book than the Bible.  What I'm
   saying is that,  that same sealed book,  was  the same sealed book  that
   Daniel, in chapters 10 through 12, was dealing with.

   s: Yes.

   l: In Daniel chapter 12, it was told by the Angel that brought Daniel to
   Elijah... and incidently in Daniel chapter 9,  Daniel was  making refer-
   ence to specifically the book of Jeremiah, the prophet, but also mention
   was made of the other prophets, and indeed Moses.

      Now, it was  out of those books,  that the Angel was teaching Daniel,
   the  information recorded  in  chapters 11-12.  And at  the  conclusion,
   Daniel was told to close the book,  and to seal it until the time of the
   end.  So, at the time of the end, the book will be unsealed.

      But this was the same book  Ezekiel had to deal with, and you'll find
   that in  chapter 10,  well it's...  yes in chapter 10,  the latter part.
   Ahhh, when John was told to take the book,  it was going to be sweet  as
   honey in his mouth,  and bitter  in his belly;  that was the  same thing
   that Ezekiel had to deal with in chapter 4 and chapter 5 of Ezekiel. You
   follow?

   s: Precisely, yes.

   l:  Now,  the issue is,  that this book,  that was actually in heaven is
   somewhat different than the book is on the earth,  although the informa-
   tion is noted in the Scriptures. Do you follow?

   s: Are saying that the Bible is a physical manifestation of the spiritu-
   al book?

   l: Precisely! That's right. Good.

      In other words, as stated very clearly in Peter,  the prophets  which
   comprise the Bible,  the information that they wrote was via the illumi-
   nation of the Spirit, yes?  So they speak,  so all the prophets speak of
   this one message,  and that information is contained in what we call the
   Old Testament. Effectively.

      Because  really, the  New Testament  is just  a record  of an  event,
   Christ's coming  2000 years ago  --  to give that Spirit.  That's all it
   was. The primary purpose of Christ 2000 years ago was to give His Spirit.

      Now, He didn't even  get a chance to be accepted  as a messenger from
   God. Do you follow?

   s: Yes, very much so.

   l:  For that reason,  He never  communicated that Spirit.  If  the world
   would not accept Him as  a messenger from God,  then obviously they were
   not  gonna accept what He said.  And eventually they will not accept the
   One Who sent Him.  Which He constantly ahh, ahm, made mention of, in the
   Gospel of John.

   s: Yes, "if you reject the one who comes in my name...

   l: So if they...

   s: ...certainly you're going to reject Me when I come too," would
   be God's point. Yes.

   l: So, if they rejected him, and as I mentioned, 2000 years ago they did
   reject him,  but the question is  from that time forward  the life-force
   that has  facilitated the continuation  of humanity  has  been basically
   this statement, "Father, forgive them;  for they know not what they do."
   We've been living on that. That is not Life, that is just grace.

      Life is as John 6:63 says,  "the words I speak ... they are spirit...
   they  are life."  And that Spirit  was committed  into the  hands of the
   Father.  So,  until we receive that spirit  in man,  he does not possess
   life,  he's merely living on grace. But grace is not an eternal thing --
   it has an end.

      Now  the thing is  that while humanity was in  the position  of where
   they were resting or living on the basis of  "Father, forgive them;  for
   they know not what they do" Christ was caught in a trap. Because as long
   as humanity was in a state of ignorance, He could not judge the world.

   s: The Law  originally came to ensure  that they were not in a  state of
   ignorance.

   l: But with the statement, `Father, forgive them, for there ignorance' -
   -  If God was to honor that statement,  He'd have  to forgive them.  But
   there had to be a way  for God to communicate  this truth  to break that
   deadlock.  To invalidate that law,  `Forgive them,  for they don't  know
   what they do,' and this was done at Mt Carmel.

      Inasmuch as,  once I sit  here and speak to you, Stephen  --  you are
   aware of the 7-Seals, yes?

   s: I am aware of the 7-Seals,  and I think I can point to the 7-Seals in
   the New Testament. Now, that may be different than what you understand.

   l: Precisely.  Well actually, the 7-Seals are not... other than  what is
   recorded in Paul, rather "in John"  --  the 7-Seals are  not in the  New
   Testament.  There are allusions that Paul makes for example, or allusive
   statements that are made in The Parables, that Christ speaks of. But I'm
   afraid the detail is far, far greater, than you can imagine.

   s: ok

   l: The actual detail,  or the context of the 7-Seals is contained in the
   Old Testament.  David did give a basic reference to specific books, like
   for example: Psalms, Zechariah, Hosea, Ezekiel with respect to the 1st 4
   Seals.  But then to deal with the other 3,  which they are so extensive,
   in the Old Testament, ahmm, the information contained  in the Old Testa-
   ment, that it is very difficult to actually bring them to the perception
   of humanity without changing the context within which humanity operates.

      In other words, humanity, within it's human thinking can not appreci-
   ate the 7-Seals.  No more than they could appreciate Christ,  2000 years
   ago. No more than they can appreciate what David is really about.

      I'm trying to be as frank and as truthful as possible, and I hope you
   can see that in my context Stephen.

   s: It's necessary. Keep going.

   l: So I'm faced with a situation here that it's very... I can't communi-
   cate the 7-Seals.  That's outside of  the realms of my operation.  I can
   speak in  respect to their origin,  where they can be found.  I can show
   you the consistency of doctrine,  that was shown to us as they relate to
   the 7-Seals,  to demonstrate,  and beyond any doubt,  that David  Koresh
   taught us the 7-Seals.

      It's in the context  of the 7-Seals  that we are now living.  Because
   really,  the 7-Seals  basically  highlight  the Purposes of God  as they
   relate to this world.  That's what we're dealing with.  But the marriage
   that God is teaching is a union between the divine  and the human.  That
   is The Marriage...

   s: ok

   l: ... and it's Principle, and it's Expressed Form.

      It's the tantamount to humanity becoming equal with God.

   s: As "Children" though?

   l: Well no. It goes beyond that. It... it goes beyond that.

      Remember when Christ came  -- in the flesh --  He was depicted as the
   Son of God. Right?

   s: Yes.

   l: Outside of the flesh, in His divinity -- He is God. You follow?

   s: Spiritually, and in the eternal present, Yes.

   l: Yes.

      Eventually,  we  were  supposed  to  transcend the  flesh.  Remember,
   ...well  actually,  I can't  say remember,  because  I doubt  very  much
   whether you were there during the Garden of Eden. But the thing is, Adam
   and Eve were created in the likeness of God.  Ok.  As children.  And  as
   children, they were confined, because of the flesh they were  housed in,
   the clay pots.  It's that clay pot, to which they were contained in just
   facilitated the process of  maturing in humanity,  The Will of God,  and
   the divine purpose. So that they themselves would become God.

      That's where we get the statement in Psalms 82,  where he talks about
   God goes among the gods, and `know ye not that ye are gods?' Christ men-
   tioned it  Himself,  2000 years ago,  which  caused  great consternation
   among the Pharisees.

   s: Well it should. Now let me, lemme interject... and I'm going to ask a
   hard question...

   l: Go ahead.

   s:  ...because in my walk with Jesus,  I've found that anything that has
   any form of seduction in it is usually of the devil.

   l: I agree with you.

   s: It's a seduction, or so it seems to me, to be offered the Godhood.

   l: "It's a seduction to be offered the Godhood." Well, here's the thing.
   Let me just try to demonstrate it on the most basic premise of humanity.
   You have  the family unit  which consists  first of all  of a mother and
   father. Yes?

   s: You have something human?

   l: The family unit.

   s: The family unit.

   l: The family unit, which is headed by a mother and a father.  They have
   children, yes?

   s: Yes.

   l: Eventually those  children themselves grow  into becoming mothers and
   fathers themselves, alright?

   s: Oh, yes.

   l:  The only  difference  between those  children  and the  mothers  and
   fathers which bare them, is that the mothers and fathers were first...

   s: Yes.

   l: ... in their status of mother and fatherhood.

      Yes?

   s: Yes, very much.

   l:  That is the only  difference ultimately that was  supposed to exist,
   between God and his children.  And anyway,  they too  ere to obtain unto
   that position. I mean listen, there's a great big universe out there...

   s: Yes, huge.

   l: ... and that universe is for His Children.

   s: That's right.

   l: And there are going to be provinces that they populate with their own
   creations. Do you understand what I'm saying to you?

   s: Ah, yes -- it's grand.

      But now I need to make another hard question.

   l: Go ahead.

   s:  We  know that  the  end-time comes  when the son-of-perdition,  when
   satan-incarnate, stands up,  as he's tried  to do before,  in caesar and
   pharaoh, and others -- as the world ruler -- and says "I am God."

   l: Precisely.

      You see  this in Isaiah chapter 14  and Ezekiel 28.  These 2 chapters
   develop this concept very well. Now, I can understand that from what has
   been reported in Mt Carmel,  someone could perceive  Mt Carmel this way.
   That is  interesting... that  we should  have a lone person,  like  what
   we're dealing with here, saying that he is God, or rather, he didn't say
   he was God,  and in fact he didn't say he was Christ, which was what was
   reported.  What David actually said was  "let me address for  you the 7-
   Seals."  In other words,  the 7-Seals,  as Revelation chapter 1:1  says,
   speaking about what God gave...  what The Father gave to The Son,  or to
   The Lamb.

      In Revelation 1, it says it's a revelation of Christ.  So if you know
   the book, you would be able to identify Christ in the earth.  You under-
   stand?

   s: I...


   Telephone Company Recording: "ATTENTION, ONE MINUTE REMAINING."


   l: For he's the One revealing The Book. You follow?

   s: The One who is able to  unseal The Book,  is  Christ operating in the
   earth??

   l: That's right.

      And it's true,  from a knowledge of Him  unveiling The Book,  can you
   make a judgement of whether He's Christ.

      Which is what I was privileged, along with the others who are with me
   right now, to experience, during the 4 1/2 to 5 years that I was listen-
   ing to David, during His teachings at Mt Carmel.


   s:  Livingstone,  how would you explain... and  you're going  to have to
   call back. How would you explain then, Christ was killed a second time.

   l: How would I explain He was killed?

      Well, let me ask  you. How many times did Moses strike the rock?  Can
   you recall? One of the rocks during the wilderness journey, was a symbol
   of Christ.


   <line goes dead>


From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen)
Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith  //  pt 3 of 3
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:46:00 GMT


   Transcript of phone conversation between myself and Livingstone
   Fagan from Saturday evening, July 24th.

   --- Beginning of Part 3 of 3 ---

   l: ...Stephen?

   s: I'm with you.

   l: I ask you a question before we got cut off, "How many times did Moses
   strike the rock?"

   s: You know, I honestly don't recall.

   l: Alright.  Well the story goes back to the Wilderness Wandering,  when
   Moses actually struck the rock twice... [Numbers 20]

   s: ok

   l: ...which was an indication of what was to take place.
   [1st Corinthians 10, note verse 4]

   s: That's looking for water in the wilderness?

   l: That's right,  "in the wilderness." And the wilderness  represented a
   *dry land* with *no trees*. A desert -- a darkness, effectively.

      And you remember also in John,  there  was a statement made by Christ
   himself, to the effect that ah, in regard to what was being done to him,
   `if they do these things in a green tree,  can you  imagine what they'll
   do in a dry tree.'

   s: That's right. [actually Luke 23:31]

   l: You remember that statement?

   s: That's a good point. Yes, scripturally  that's a very good point.  Go
   ahead.

   l: There was also highlighted, when the children of Israel was traveling
   through Egypt  to Canaan...  And note,  I make reference  to the  Law of
   Moses,  and the writings of  Moses too,  because there is  much that  is
   contained in there that pertains to this reality,  just as though in The
   Prophets.

      But, do  you remember the time that God  permitted the  serpents,  to
   bite them?  To address the bite, because when the serpents bit them they
   actually died. But uhh, Moses was instructed to actually take a brass...
   to make a serpent of brass, and put it up on a stick.

   s: Yes, I think it's called "sherutan."

   l: Right.  Well, what's intriguing about this is -- why would God choose
   a brass *serpent*? You know what the symbol of the serpent is don't you...

   s: Yes.

   l: ...going back to the Garden of Eden. I t's supposed to be satan.  You
   will also notice, that ahh, God did cause Moses  (and I'll  come back to
   that other statement)  God did cause Moses to ahm, employ his rod, which
   turned into a serpent...

   s: True.

   l: ...which ate up the other serpents of the other magicians. [Exodus 7]
   Interesting.

      In going back to  the "brass serpent  on a stick,"  the serpent is  a
   symbol of  the devil. [cf.  Numbers 21]  But  what is brass a symbol of?
   Well,  that goes back to the book Daniel,  that talked about an image in
   volume two [ie chapter 2],  which had a head of  gold,  breastplate made
   out of silver...

   [In text  it's "arms of silver."  Over the phone there  were loud noises
   making it hard to hear.]

   ...belly  of brass, and uhhh,  that's right... belly of  brass, thigh of
   iron, etc. etc. going all the way down.

   [Actually,  belly  and thighs(sides)  of  brass,  and legs of iron.  see
   verses 31 through 45.]

   Now, the brass, as we know,  represented the kingdom of the grecia... of
   Greece. Do you follow?

   s: Brass was Greece?

   l: You'll have to read the story in Daniel 2.

   s: Ok.

   l: The brass was Greece.  Now  what's Greece noted for  -- its *philoso-
   phy*...

   s: Very much so.

   l: ... and sophistry.

   s: Sophistry, and eventually to today's time, it's logic, and worship of
   reason.

   l: Precisely, "human reason" at that.

   s: Yes.

   l: Ok.  Now, the objective of the brass-serpent,  was that Christ was to
   be lifted up, but there was another aspect of that lifting up -- in what
   was visible -- that is to  say  the serpent.  There was  supposed  to be
   something about that which is contrary to the perceptions of men...

   [The  situation arises around complaints  about lack of substantial food
   and water.]

   So this was a maxim that  was going to take place, just like 2000  years
   ago when they expected Christ to come as this, this uhhh,  I don't know,
   this... this messiah that was going to destroy the Romans with some kind
   of army of some sort. But what would be the point to destroy the  Romans
   in front of a kingdom that is still built upon the feelings of humanity?

   s: Well, He could have done it!  He could  have called legions of angels
   down to destroy the Romans, and He chose not to.

   l: Precisely...

   s: Because  Christ came,  because Jesus was focussed on  love, and grace
   extends  from His love. Much as Moses...  when God sought to uh, destroy
   the children for their wickedness in  the desert;  Moses said  "blot  my
   name out..." [Exodus 32:32, Numbers 14]

   l: Right. Yes.

      He  [Christ] could  not set up a kingdom.  The Jews  at the time,  in
   their thinking,  were no different than the Romans.  So, the Romans were
   left to continue ruling...

   s: Yes, if Christ had come in power, as Jesus, then it would have killed
   us all.

   l: Oh, exactly.

      If he were to come in power right now,  to humanity... (ok, we'll tie
   it into  the event  of  Mt Carmel)  the  same thing  would've  happened,
   because christianity today is *no* different. It's a known fact. I mean,
   you observe what we in the western world call christianity.  It's just a
   part  of this political process.  For God to come down at this moment --
   humanity  would be destroyed,  because of it's so... sinfulness.  I mean
   right now humanity has no perception of the meaning of the book of Reve-
   lation.

   s: Are there exceptions?

   l: At this present moment, no.

      I used to be a minister before I was ahh, introduced to David...

   s: Let me ask you a question about that -- do you have divinity degrees?

   l: I have a Masters in Theology.

   s: Go ahead.

   l: When I  came, David  even showed me  the fact that,  there was to  be
   *somebody*  to come into the earth  (as Revelation 22 pointed out) where
   even  the concept  of The Judgement,  as declared by John...  I have  to
   admit, that that knowledge had escaped me!

   [Rev. 22:17,16,2 and cp. Numbers 14 esp. verse 21]

   And I  have to  admit, that outside  of that knowledge,  everything else
   that I had  and was taught,  was of very little significance.  Remember,
   the last book given to man was the book of Revelation. In truth, you can
   preach everything  you want,  about Jesus Christ being  the Savior,  but
   without the  knowledge of  Present Truth  which depicts to  us where  we
   should be in relationship to the Divine Purpose...

   s: In the last times.

   l: Yeah. ...then  it's of no significance.  Christ is of no significance
   without a knowledge of what He's doing.

   s: Well, one  of the things that  was always apparent to me was,  anyone
   who was drawing upon the material from the Gospels, and drawing upon the
   material from Revelation,  was pointing to those things which dealt very
   frankly,  and very definitely, with Jesus Christ. Now that comes from my
   background of course.

   l: Let me make a  point in respect  to that.  You recall  in Matthew 24,
   Christ makes  a statement to the disciples that  "many  shall come in my
   name..."  saying that I am Christ.  Not saying that they are Christ, but
   saying that  the person who lived 2000 years ago  is Christ,  "and shall
   deceive many." [Matt. 24:5]

      Now, that's exactly what's happening today. Virtually every Christian
   denomination teaches that the person who lived 2000 years ago is Christ,
   yes?

   s: Yes.

   l: Now, that's what Christ warned about, in His statement that they will
   deceive many. In essence the  deception is this, they do not  teach *the
   Message  of Christ*,  but rather teach -- *His  historical presence*. Do
   you follow.

   s: Yes, yes. They do not do His commandments.

   l: Well,  in not teaching the Message of Christ,  what  He came  to say,
   from "focussing  people's minds on the  fact that  He lived  2000  years
   ago", and "establishing church  denominations," and yet, these denomina-
   tion churches doubtless are  the basis of this.  So that particularly, a
   denomination can  be isolated from others,  which merely just sets  up a
   situation where  rites, and buildings, and rituals, and tithes,  and all
   the rest of it -- is not the essence of Christ's purpose 2000 years ago.
   And to that degree, there is deception. Furthermore, it's interesting to
   note...

   s: Deception on who's part?

   l: On the part of humanity...

   s: Yes. Yes I know. I needed to ask the question, go ahead.

   l: They're deceived. Without the knowledge of The Message Christ came to
   give,  which in Luke chapter 3 makes clear, mankind was in need of.  And
   that knowledge  which is His Spirit  was commended into the  hand of The
   Father.  Without that knowledge,  then mankind is lost  back there  2000
   years ago, on what is recorded by the uhh, the Gospels.

      But the truth about it,  no  one really needs another  human being to
   come and teach them what is so plainly stated in the Gospels.

   s: That's right.

   l: And certainly, you don't need to pay someone to teach you that.

   s: That's right too.

   l:  I think  it would be  easier for you  to spend your  money gaining a
   basic knowledge of written English.  Or developing  your reading skills,
   and read it for yourself.

   s: There's a better coin-in-trade than money, anyway.

      Ok.  Livingstone  on the  point of Jesus,  who Jesus is.  Jesus  went
   through  a very unique experience,  and there will be those  who want to
   ask how Jesus plays into this?

      From my perspective, what I want to ask because this is an expression
   of my belief... Jesus became part of God, in a sense Jesus became united
   with, uhm, joined with God... After the resurrection.

   l: Ok, let me demonstrate.

   s: ok

   l: That's true, but there was an experience while He was on earth...

   s: Yes.

   l: ...that made Him One with God before that...

   s: Yes.

   l: The uhm, 40 days in the wilderness...

   s: Was it that Livingstone, or was it The Baptism?

   l: Well, actually it was that. The Baptism was significant as an outward
   show.  To those who were receptive  enough to see the right things, like
   John and those around him.

   s:  Well,  didn't we have two Manifestations occurring at that point, in
   other words,  we saw the Spirit of God come into Christ  at The Baptism.
   However, in The Wilderness, what was given to Christ, was it The Word?

   l:  Well, in The Wilderness, let me present it this way  --  can a human
   person, a human body, live for 40 days without food? No.  Christ went in
   there... I mean up to that point He had come to appreciate, that ahh, He
   was divine.  But we have to prove that.  Cause if The Word dwelt in Him,
   It most essentially means that He was eternal... so, that He could go to
   The Wilderness, He could live 40 days without food, and yet He would not
   die. That was a test for Him. That He had appointed to complete, that He
   was indeed called of God.

   s: Now you understand, many will say that's not scriptural.

   l: What?

   s: In respect to there being any evidence of Him not taking  food during
   that time.

   l: Well, ok, I can accept that statement. If people find difficulty with
   that, then  I'd have to use  something else to demonstrate to them,  the
   truth of that.  But... I mean, 40 days  in the wilderness --  where's He
   going to get food from?

   s:  Well, we have the  instance with hmm, was it the prophet Isaiah that
   was fed by ravens,  and we have  the instance of manna  for those on The
   Exodus. Are those [some examples] that would be pointed out.

   [I was wrong. It was Elijah fed by the ravens.]

   l:  But there is nothing to prove that. One thing that's certain is that
   while He was in the wilderness, and satan came to him, one of the things
   that satan *tempted* Him on was (as you know) -- food.

   s: Yes. [Matthew 4 and Luke 4, esp. verse 3&4 in both cases]

   l: Now, why would he do that, if Christ was being taken care of as far a
   food was concerned? It certainly wouldn't be a temptation.

   s: Yes. He had to hunger.

   l: I'm not absolutely sure,  but I understand that He was led away  into
   the wilderness  to be tempted.  Now it states in the text itself that he
   was a hungered.  [Matt. 4:2  and Luke 4:2]  The point I'm trying to make
   from that I think you perceive already -- is the fact that Christ needed
   proof, of His divinity, whilst He was in humanity. And it had to be that
   way, because of the fact that if He was totally 100% ahmm,  aware of His
   divinity, then there would be questions as to whether or not  He was fit
   to be a Redeemer for  humanity.  Remember the statements about His being
   in all points tempted as we were?

   s: Yes. [Hebrews 4:15]

   l: And his being able to succour us?

   s: Yes. [Hebrews 2:18]

      Many point to that, to Him being tempted in affairs of sex as well.

   l: Precisely.  That had to be.  Otherwise,  there is questions about His
   fitness.

      Now  there was the former argument, that,  "Well,  it's alright being
   tempted...",  and  it's fine,  to be able to meet humanities needs,  for
   those  of us who have only suffered temptations.  But as men have fallen
   as a consequence of temptation, ah, satan would argue, and quite reason-
   ably,  that all human beings who have in fact fallen in temptation,  are
   his. And outside of the redeeming, or the salvation process of God, then
   we'll have to come down a step lower to address that argument, yes?

   s: "All would have to come down a step lower to address that"?

   l: Yes..

   s: Yes, they don't have their eyes on the Power of God.

   l: In other words,  what I'm saying to you  is that,  God would have  to
   meet fallen man  where he is at any point  in the process to be  able to
   show  Himself  as being  a redeemer  of mankind.  There  is no  depth of
   degradation that man can reach that God can not save him.

   s: That is  what Paul guarantees us  in that  we have a High  Priest (in
   Hebrews)  a Priest of the Melchizedek [Heb.  5-8], Who is there, Who has
   paid the blood sacrifice, for us to be in The Holy of Holies,  *continu-
   ally*, as an intercessor for us.

   l: But the point being  is that  if Christ is not... can not... Christ's
   ability as a high priest, Christ's ability as a redeemer, must be corre-
   lated  to His experiencing or the depth of experience encompassing those
   He seeks to redeem.

      Now  if  my sins  are  outside of  Christ's redeeming  abilities, his
   redeeming qualities, then He can not save me.

   s: Say that all again.

   l: Christ's redeeming qualifications rests upon  His abilities to encom-
   pass the extent of humanities sins.

   s: That's right.

   l: If I personalize it, what I'm saying is that,  Christ, can not under-
   stand,  or can not  appreciate sins committed,  rather than temptations.
   And this is by virtue of His own experience.

      Now, there is a question that must arise,  as to whether or not He is
   fit enough to reach down and meet somebody who is fallen into sin.

   s: I understand that you're leading up to Koresh.

      Let me stay with Christ for a moment. Christ made the assertion that,
   if you lust in your heart,  it's the same as if  you had  the sex act...
   [Matthew 5:27-28, regarding adultery]

   l: That's right.

   s: ...and if you hate it's the same as if...

   l: You commit murder.

   s: ... you killed. [Matthew 5:21-22]

   l: Alright.

   s: So that, to Him there was no distinction between...

   l: Ok. Fine.

   s: Ahh, yes. Uh huh. ok

      Is the justification important to man in that the sentence be carried
   out? In that, The Judgement be carried out?

   l: For man yes,  because at the  end of the  day,  every man  will stand
   before God -- without  an argument.  The truth about it  is that  if God
   never came  down to  the level  of mankind,  then essentially  you could
   argue with... mankind  could argue, "Well, God, it's alright,  that talk
   about being able to suffer me, but listen -- You didn't sin."

      I recommend  that you read Psalms 40,  in respect to this issue.  Now
   there is  spoken of a  person there.  That a body  was prepared for.  It
   speaks about him in the volume of the book.

      Now, if you read that chapter in it's truest context,  something very
   significant is brought out about the *person* spoken of in the chapter.

   s: You say this is Psalms 40.

   l: That's right. Preferably with Psalms 139 and Psalms ahmm, Psalms 89.

   s: 139 & 89 ??

   l: That's right.

      What I need to do to be able to develop this argument... now, hold on
   a second, all that we're doing is developing an argument.  At the end of
   the  day you must  decide based on information presented,  what position
   you take. Do you follow what I'm saying?

   s: Oh, yes.

   l:  But, what I feel is, [it's] necessary for you to be able to perceive
   the frame of reference that I'm operating in...  there is a certain con-
   ceptual reality that is necessary for you to understand, for us to build
   our discussion. Do you follow?

   s: To build on... ?

   l: To build our discussion.

   s: To build the discussion.

   l: That's right.

      And some of this information I'm now giving to you.  With your having
   a background in those things we can then proceed, in our discussion. But
   until that is so, I can not assume, as I said in the article, that we're
   actually  operating in the  same conceptual frame of reference.  Cause I
   know that we're not.

   s: Yes. I understand.

   l: I really do know that we're not.

   s: To me it's a simple matter of "impedance matching."  I think in terms
   of signals and antennae and such.

   l: Right.

   s: We've  got to  have that bridge,  that right framework,  and  mesh-up
   before  the best  and  most accurate  transmission  of power  can  occur
   without reflections. ["self-reflections"]

   l: That's exactly it.

      So at  the moment,  even as we have been  discussing over the past, I
   think roughly, an hour now.  In our discussion  thus far  there are many
   things that I have said  that I know  do not...  are not received in the
   context of my expression.  You are still viewing them  in the context of
   where you're at.

   s: Yes.

   l: Now, I understand in my <garbled, sounds like "direct past"> there is
   a lot  of individuals who do that  to protect themselves.  But the truth
   about it is, if I'm showing you Truth, you really do not need to protect
   your self, because it's really... we're talking about freedom.

   s: Yes, truth is  the way by  which I know how  to correct those  things
   which are wrong.

   l: Sure. Anything that is in error is enslaving you.

   s: That's right. Amen. That's right.

   l: So with the basic  conceptual reference that we're operating in,  you
   can enter in there for your self, and judge it.  Your mind and your free
   will is  not in any way, ahmm,  sacrificed.  It is necessary  for you to
   demonstrate an element of trust,  to  facilitate the discussion.  Nobody
   forces anybody,  (certainly not where we're coming from),  to be able to
   understand this truth.

      Everybody that's here,  that is currently being identified  as Branch
   Davidian, adopts this position out of absolute free choice.

   s: They voluntarily entered into whatever the situation is?

   l: Voluntarily.

   s: They were not coerced by anybody?

   l: Yes.

   s: Would you say that for the children as well?

   l: Well the children go with the parents.

   s: Yes, it's so.

   l: So from that premise, it's likely what the government would be saying
   is that,  "Ok, you can do what you want,  but  don't take your  children
   along." BUT THAT'S A RIGHT. That's a PARENTAL RIGHT! It's your right, if
   you have  kids,  that you should take a responsibility to  ah, ahm, take
   care of the temporal; as well as the eternal, destiny of those children.

      Now listen,  I'm going to have  to conclude now.  We've got a problem
   right here. Somebody else wants the phone.

   s: I understand. One thing more for me and I'm not recording this.

   l: What's that.


   <tape recorder secured>

   --- End of Part 3 of 3 ---


      |
   -- J --        "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples
      |            indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth
      | stephen    shall make you free."
                  (Jesus to the Jews who believed on him. John 8:31-32)

